Roman Catholic Mass at Calvin's Church in Geneva!

[37818]

Sorry, but it's not as you believe.

"The cup of blessing which we bless, is it not the communion of the blood of Christ? The bread which we break, is it not the communion of the body of Christ?"

Communion = κοινωνία = fellowship, association, community, communion, joint participation, intercourse, intimacy

Source

Trying to have fellowship, association, community, communion, participation, intercourse and intimacy with a symbol is idolatry.

You of course do not understand. The real presence of Christ is in the believers not in the bread and cup. 1 Corinthians 10:17 and Romans 8:9.

 

[Campion]

You of course do not understand. The real presence of Christ is in the believers not in the bread and cup. 1 Corinthians 10:17 and Romans 8:9.

Of course it must be I who does not understand.

Ok, explain this to me so I can understand it. How does the bread and wine symbolize believers? I thought the Last Supper was a commemoration of Christ's body and blood and his sacrifice???

If you are commemorating other believers, why do you use bread and wine? Why not just bring them up to the altar and commemorate them in person???

Where is this understanding of yours taught in Scripture?

 

[37818]

Ok, explain this to me so I can understand it. How does the bread and wine symbolize believers?

Like I said you do not understand. The bread and cup symbolize the body and blood of Christ as a remembrance of His death on the cross to have paid for our sins, and to do this until He comes. 1 , Corinthians 11:26, "For as often as ye eat this bread, and drink this cup, ye do shew the Lord's death till he come." The believers have eternal life. 1 John 5:12, Romans 8:9.

 

[Campion]

Like I said you do not understand. The bread and cup symbolize the body and blood of Christ as a remembrance of His death on the cross to have paid for our sins, and to do this until He comes. 1 , Corinthians 11:26, "For as often as ye eat this bread, and drink this cup, ye do shew the Lord's death till he come." The believers have eternal life. 1 John 5:12, Romans 8:9.

You are flip flopping all over the place. Now you say the bread and cup do symbolize the body and blood of Christ. Yet previously you said they symbolize other believers...

Bad translation.
". . . The cup of blessing which we bless, is it not the communion of the blood of Christ? The bread which we break, is it not the communion of the body of Christ? For we being many are one bread, and one body: for we are all partakers of that one bread. . . ."
And the word interpreted "communion" meaning fellowship of the believers they being the body of Christ being His church.
So it is not as you believe.

You of course do not understand. The real presence of Christ is in the believers not in the bread and cup. 1 Corinthians 10:17 and Romans 8:9.

I readily admit I do not understand your belief. So again, if you are communing with and commemorating other believers, why go through the trouble of a ceremony involving bread and wine and not just bring other believers up to the altar and commune and commemorate them live and in person???

 

[Eliyahu]

If you eat his SYMBOLIC FLESH and drink his SYMBOLIC BLOOD your religion is SYMBOLIC cannibalism.
Tell me how SYMBOLIC CANNIBALISM is permissible given your interpretation above.

The Reason why I interpret it as the Reminder of His Blood and His Flesh is because :
1) Jesus Himself said it is the Spirit that He was talking about in the same statements:
John 6:63

63 It is the spirit that quickeneth; the flesh profiteth nothing: the words that I speak unto you, they are spirit, and they are life.

2) Jesus said the Parables in John like that :

John 10:

7 Then said Jesus unto them again, Verily, verily, I say unto you, I am the door of the sheep.

Is Jesus a wooden door or a steel door at the entrance? He meant the Access to God and the same meaning as the Way, the Truth, the Life ( John 14:6)

3) Acts 15 prohibited eating the blood:

20 But that we write unto them, that they abstain from pollutions of idols, and from fornication, and from things strangled, and from blood
29 That ye abstain from meats offered to idols, and from blood, and from things strangled, and from fornication: from which if ye keep yourselves, ye shall do well. Fare ye well.

If you are determined to disobey the Words of God and to drink the human blood, you will be cursed and be cut off from the people of God as per Leviticus 17:11-14.
On the day of the Great Judgment, you will be reminded of what I say to you now.


Eliyahu

 

[Campion]

The Reason why I interpret it as the Reminder of His Blood and His Flesh is because :
1) Jesus Himself said it is the Spirit that He was talking about in the same statements:
John 6:63

63 It is the spirit that quickeneth; the flesh profiteth nothing: the words that I speak unto you, they are spirit, and they are life.

2) Jesus said the Parables in John like that :

John 10:

7 Then said Jesus unto them again, Verily, verily, I say unto you, I am the door of the sheep.

Is Jesus a wooden door or a steel door at the entrance? He meant the Access to God and the same meaning as the Way, the Truth, the Life ( John 14:6)

3) Acts 15 prohibited eating the blood:

20 But that we write unto them, that they abstain from pollutions of idols, and from fornication, and from things strangled, and from blood
29 That ye abstain from meats offered to idols, and from blood, and from things strangled, and from fornication: from which if ye keep yourselves, ye shall do well. Fare ye well.

If you are determined to disobey the Words of God and to drink the human blood, you will be cursed and be cut off from the people of God as per Leviticus 17:11-14.
On the day of the Great Judgment, you will be reminded of what I say to you now.


Eliyahu

If Jesus was speaking symbolically, you still have a problem: Jesus is commanding us to eat his flesh and drink his blood symbolically. In other words, He is commanding you to act out symbolically (eating and drinking his symbolic body and blood) that which you are saying is prohibited by Leviticus.

Land the plane and reconcile this for me.

 

[37818]

. . . if you are communing with and commemorating other believers, . . .

No. Said no such thing.
1 Corinthians 11:26, ,"For as often as ye eat this bread, and drink this cup, ye do shew the Lord's death till he come."

 

[Campion]

No. Said no such thing.
1 Corinthians 11:26, ,"For as often as ye eat this bread, and drink this cup, ye do shew the Lord's death till he come."

Yes, you did. Here are your posts...

Bad translation.
". . . The cup of blessing which we bless, is it not the communion of the blood of Christ? The bread which we break, is it not the communion of the body of Christ? For we being many are one bread, and one body: for we are all partakers of that one bread. . . ."
And the word interpreted "communion" meaning fellowship of the believers they being the body of Christ being His church.
So it is not as you believe.

You of course do not understand. The real presence of Christ is in the believers not in the bread and cup. 1 Corinthians 10:17 and Romans 8:9.

Again, if you are communing with and commemorating other believers, why go through the trouble of a ceremony involving bread and wine and not just bring other believers up to the altar and commune and commemorate them live and in person?

 

[Campion]

@37818, I forgive you.

 

[37818]

Again, if you are communing with and commemorating other believers, why go through the trouble of a ceremony involving bread and wine and not just bring other believers up to the altar and commune and commemorate them live and in person?

I believe no such thing. And made no claim that believers observing the Lord's Supper are "commemorating other believers." There is no
altar. And the Apostle Paul calls it the bread and cup, 1 Corinthians 11:26, ""For as often as ye eat this bread, and drink this cup, ye do shew the Lord's death till he come."

 

[Campion]

I believe no such thing. And made no claim that believers observing the Lord's Supper are "commemorating other believers."

Yes, you did. Here again are YOUR posts...

Bad translation.
". . . The cup of blessing which we bless, is it not the communion of the blood of Christ? The bread which we break, is it not the communion of the body of Christ? For we being many are one bread, and one body: for we are all partakers of that one bread. . . ."
And the word interpreted "communion" meaning fellowship of the believers they being the body of Christ being His church.
So it is not as you believe.

You of course do not understand. The real presence of Christ is in the believers not in the bread and cup. 1 Corinthians 10:17 and Romans 8:9.

Again, if you are communing with and commemorating other believers, why go through the trouble of a ceremony involving bread and wine and not just bring other believers up to the altar and commune and commemorate them live and in person?

There is no altar.

Hebrews clearly says Christians worship God at the altar:

"We have an altar of our own, and it is not those who carry out the worship of the tabernacle that are qualified to eat its sacrifices. When the high priest takes the blood of beasts with him into the sanctuary, as an offering for sin, the bodies of those beasts have to be burned, away from the camp; and thus it was that Jesus, when he would sanctify the people through his own blood, suffered beyond the city gate. Let us, too, go out to him away from the camp, bearing the ignominy he bore; we have an everlasting city, but not here; our goal is the city that is one day to be. It is through him, then, that we must offer to God a continual sacrifice of praise, the tribute of lips that give thanks to his name." (Heb 13:10-15)

The word "altar" used by the author is thysiastērion, which is a compound word of two Greek words meaning "fixed place of sacrifice."

And the Apostle Paul calls it the bread and cup, 1 Corinthians 11:26, ""For as often as ye eat this bread, and drink this cup, ye do shew the Lord's death till he come."

And what does he call this bread and cup in the very next verse? He calls it the "body and blood of the Lord."

"Whoever, therefore, eats the bread or drinks the cup of the Lord in an unworthy manner will be guilty concerning the body and blood of the Lord. Let a person examine himself, then, and so eat of the bread and drink of the cup. For anyone who eats and drinks without discerning the body eats and drinks judgment on himself." (1 Corinthians 11:27-29)

 

[unprofitable]

Do you think this command was given to everyone? If I walked into your church one Sunday, would they let me get up and offer the Eucharist?




First, the hypostatic union is not a theory. It is the core dogma upon which the Christian religion is based.

Secondly, I gave it to you previously. In 1 Cor 11:27, St. Paul says, "Therefore, whosoever shall eat this bread, OR drink the chalice of the Lord unworthily, shall be guilty of the body AND of the blood of the Lord."

Christ cannot be divided into separate parts, quantities and portions. (This is the hypostatic union.)




Can you demonstrate anywhere in the Scriptures where eating a body (not some other “object” / red herring) was a metaphor for something other than that.

You have a knack of twisting statements. First, the command is given to the entire body of Christ to observe the supper. Secondly, there is no place that I said or insinuated someone could just walk in and offer the Lord's supper. We do not observe open communion as the catholics do. We only allow whomever the church authorizes to administer the meal.

That is usually the pastor but could be another elder if a situation should present itself.

The question I asked was why the priest took the bread and wine and the laity only the bread. It is certainly not according to the pattern laid down by Christ.

You are the ones dividing Christ in administering only one element to the laity, Christ is indeed in all parts of the Lord's supper and in all things scriptural. That does not mean you can twist its meaning and presentation.

Why does the priest need to take both elements if the laity only is to observe one?

Since Christ is in both, why can he not take just one element instead of both?

In regard to the priest observing both elements but the laity only one, I ask/quote, can the eye say unto the hand, I have no need of thee?

Paul was instructing the body of Christ at Corinth as a whole, not just the pastors and elders.

1 Cor 11:26, "For as often as ye (the body) eat this bread AND (not OR) drink this cup, ye do show the lord's death til he come.

1 Cor 11:27, "For whosoever shall eat this bread AND (not OR) drink this cup of the Lord unworthily shall be guilty of the body and blood of the Lord,

1 Cor 11:28 "But let a man examine himself , and so let him eat that bread AND (not OR) drink that cup.

1 Cor 11:29 For he that eateth AND (not OR) drinketh unworthily, eateth AND (not OR) drinketh damnation to himself not discerning the Lord's body.

My bible uses AND and not OR in vs 26, 27, 28, AND 29. You must be using the new catholic bible. My bad, even the new catholic bible translate them as AND and not OR.

Also in addition as been quoted by Bro 37818: 1 Cor 10:16, The cup of blessing which WE bless, is it not the communion of the blood of Christ, the bread WE break, is it not the communion of the body of Christ? NO divisions here.

I am not sure how to make it any clearer.

I am not denying the deity of Christ as both man and God. I am questioning any of your applications of the teaching.

Please expound on your last statement as I am not clear on what you are trying to say.

 

[Campion]

You have a knack of twisting statements. First, the command is given to the entire body of Christ to observe the supper. Secondly, there is no place that I said or insinuated someone could just walk in and offer the Lord's supper. We do not observe open communion as the catholics do. We only allow whomever the church authorizes to administer the meal.

That is usually the pastor but could be another elder if a situation should present itself.

The question I asked was why the priest took the bread and wine and the laity only the bread. It is certainly not according to the pattern laid down by Christ.

You are the ones dividing Christ in administering only one element to the laity, Christ is indeed in all parts of the Lord's supper and in all things scriptural. That does not mean you can twist its meaning and presentation.

Why does the priest need to take both elements if the laity only is to observe one?

Since Christ is in both, why can he not take just one element instead of both?

In regard to the priest observing both elements but the laity only one, I ask/quote, can the eye say unto the hand, I have no need of thee?

Paul was instructing the body of Christ at Corinth as a whole, not just the pastors and elders.

1 Cor 11:26, "For as often as ye (the body) eat this bread AND (not OR) drink this cup, ye do show the lord's death til he come.

1 Cor 11:27, "For whosoever shall eat this bread AND (not OR) drink this cup of the Lord unworthily shall be guilty of the body and blood of the Lord,

1 Cor 11:28 "But let a man examine himself , and so let him eat that bread AND (not OR) drink that cup.

1 Cor 11:29 For he that eateth AND (not OR) drinketh unworthily, eateth AND (not OR) drinketh damnation to himself not discerning the Lord's body.

My bible uses AND and not OR in vs 26, 27, 28, AND 29. You must be using the new catholic bible. My bad, even the new catholic bible translate them as AND and not OR.

Also in addition as been quoted by Bro 37818: 1 Cor 10:16, The cup of blessing which WE bless, is it not the communion of the blood of Christ, the bread WE break, is it not the communion of the body of Christ? NO divisions here.

I am not sure how to make it any clearer.

I am not denying the deity of Christ as both man and God. I am questioning any of your applications of the teaching.

Please expound on your last statement as I am not clear on what you are trying to say.

I do not mean to twist anyone's statements. I am sorry you think that.

If the body and blood are symbolic, what about the eating? Do you symbolically eat something or do you actually physically eat something when you partake of communion?

 

[37818]

@Campion,
You unwittingly complicate what is simple. You believe what you have been taught. Christ in Heaven is our altar. Hebrews 13:10, Hebrews 9:12, Hebrews 9:24, Isaiah 53:12, Hebrews 10:10-12, 1 Timothy 2:4-6.
There is no point explaining what you will refuse to hear. 2 Corinthians 11:3, 1 John 5:9-13.

 

[Campion]

@Campion,
You unwittingly complicate what is simple. You believe what you have been taught. Christ in Heaven is our altar. Hebrews 13:10, Hebrews 9:12, Hebrews 9:24, Isaiah 53:12, Hebrews 10:10-12, 1 Timothy 2:4-6.
There is no point explaining what you will refuse to hear. 2 Corinthians 11:3, 1 John 5:9-13.

I agree it is simple: Just take Jesus at his word. That’s what Paul did.

You demonstrated in near real-time what happens when you don’t. (You end up flip flopping all over the place.)

 

[37818]

I agree it is simple: Just take Jesus at his word. That’s what Paul did.

You demonstrated in near real-time what happens when you don’t. (You end up flip flopping all over the place.)

I have not changed my view. Jesus' teaching on being the Bread of Life, John 6:35-63, is in no way about the remembrance. And the remembrance is an oobservance.per 1 Corinthians 11:26, "For as often as ye eat this bread, and drink this cup, ye do shew the Lord's death till he come."

The false teaching that claims the bread and cup are the actual body and blood of Christ is another Jesus. 2 Corinthians 11:3-4.

 

[Campion]

I have not changed my view. Jesus' teaching on being the Bread of Life, John 6:35-63, is in no way about the remembrance. And the remembrance is an oobservance.per 1 Corinthians 11:26, "For as often as ye eat this bread, and drink this cup, ye do shew the Lord's death till he come."

Yes, you have indeed flip flopped in near real time in this thread. Here again are your posts...

Bad translation.
". . . The cup of blessing which we bless, is it not the communion of the blood of Christ? The bread which we break, is it not the communion of the body of Christ? For we being many are one bread, and one body: for we are all partakers of that one bread. . . ."
And the word interpreted "communion" meaning fellowship of the believers they being the body of Christ being His church.
So it is not as you believe.

You of course do not understand. The real presence of Christ is in the believers not in the bread and cup. 1 Corinthians 10:17 and Romans 8:9.

And then the flip...

Like I said you do not understand. The bread and cup symbolize the body and blood of Christ as a remembrance of His death on the cross to have paid for our sins, and to do this until He comes. 1 , Corinthians 11:26, "For as often as ye eat this bread, and drink this cup, ye do shew the Lord's death till he come." The believers have eternal life. 1 John 5:12, Romans 8:9.

So you first say it represents believers, then, presumably because you realized the words of Scripture do not support such an assertion, you flipped.

The false teaching that claims the bread and cup are the actual body and blood of Christ is another Jesus. 2 Corinthians 11:3-4.

It's the same Jesus St. Paul was said are the actual body and blood which we have communion. Here again are his words...

"Whoever, therefore, eats the bread or drinks the cup of the Lord in an unworthy manner will be guilty concerning the body and blood of the Lord. Let a person examine himself, then, and so eat of the bread and drink of the cup. For anyone who eats and drinks without discerning the body eats and drinks judgment on himself." (1 Corinthians 11:27-29)

You cannot be guilty concerning a symbol and there is nothing to discern about a symbol.

 

[37818]

Yes, you have indeed flip flopped in near real time in this thread. Here again are your posts...





And then the flip...



So you first say it represents believers, then, presumably because you realized the words of Scripture do not support such an assertion, you flipped.




It's the same Jesus St. Paul was said are the actual body and blood which we have communion. Here again are his words...

"Whoever, therefore, eats the bread or drinks the cup of the Lord in an unworthy manner will be guilty concerning the body and blood of the Lord. Let a person examine himself, then, and so eat of the bread and drink of the cup. For anyone who eats and drinks without discerning the body eats and drinks judgment on himself." (1 Corinthians 11:27-29)

You cannot be guilty concerning a symbol and there is nothing to discern about a symbol.

You lack understanding. I have not changed my view. My quotes prove I haven't. And you quoted me too.

 

[Campion]

You lack understanding. I have not changed my view. My quotes prove I haven't. And you quoted me too.

Your posts are there for all to see and yes, I quoted you. Here again are your previous posts...

Bad translation.
". . . The cup of blessing which we bless, is it not the communion of the blood of Christ? The bread which we break, is it not the communion of the body of Christ? For we being many are one bread, and one body: for we are all partakers of that one bread. . . ."
And the word interpreted "communion" meaning fellowship of the believers they being the body of Christ being His church.
So it is not as you believe.

You of course do not understand. The real presence of Christ is in the believers not in the bread and cup. 1 Corinthians 10:17 and Romans 8:9.

You never answered either: If you are communing with and commemorating other believers, why go through the trouble of a ceremony involving bread and wine and not just bring other believers up to the altar and commune and commemorate them live and in person?

Asked another way, if the real presence of Christ is in the believer, why are you using bread and wine and not just using believers during your communion service? Bring them up to the altar (or table or whatever you use) and commune and commemorate them instead of confusing people with bread and wine which apparently are just symbols anyway. If they are just symbols, can't you just have pictures of them and use live believers to commune and commemorate since in them is the real presence?

 

[Eliyahu]

If Jesus was speaking symbolically, you still have a problem: Jesus is commanding us to eat his flesh and drink his blood symbolically. In other words, He is commanding you to act out symbolically (eating and drinking his symbolic body and blood) that which you are saying is prohibited by Leviticus.

Land the plane and reconcile this for me.

So, are you a cannibal?
If so, you are cursed!
You may be honest in confessing that you are cursed according to the Words of God:

Leviticus 17:
14 For it is the life of all flesh; the blood of it is for the life thereof: therefore I said unto the children of Israel, Ye shall eat the blood of no manner of flesh: for the life of all flesh is the blood thereof: whosoever eateth it shall be cut off.
The Blood shed at the Cross wasn't for any human to drink, but offered to God to pay for the sins of the world, appeasing the Wrath of God

If you insist on drinking the human blood, you are cut off from God!
You insist on getting cursed by God!, sadly.

Eliyahu