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Actually I disagree with most people (even many Baptists) on the definition of "church."Originally posted by nate:
DHK,
Is it true that the definition of Church are all those who accept Christ? If so then doesn't one have to belong to the catholic church? And by 'catholic' I mean simply universal. Now true the RCC teaches this to be only the RCC. But in a sense is this not true? One does have to belong to the Church. Because everyone who is truely saved is an automatic member into the Family of God or Church.
In Christ,
Nate
"Eccere nullus-a-um salus-utis externus Christus!"
Good post Eliyahu. I agree with you.Originally posted by Eliyahu:
The concept of Heavenly Universal Church is quite important when we notice many denominations compete each other and sometimes struggle each other even though they are truly believers and parts of one Body. In that aspect, I don't want to ignore the original concept and importance of Catholic Church. Whenever I encounter other denominations ( Plymouth Brethren don't consider themselves as a denomination), we can be generous and can tolerate the other true believers, as long as they are born-again believers at least, if we keep in mind the Heavenly, Consecrated, Holy Universal Church.
If anyone is truly born again in the Lord, then such person has become a member of the Family of God.
It is interesting that PB doesn't have any head quarter, no general assembly, because they believe the Head Quarter is in heaven and the Superintendant is Jesus Christ, the Chairman is our God.
Who said anything about Darby? I referred to his translation, not his theology. Note that Paul was not writing to a universal heavenly church. What does he say in the first verse?Originally posted by Eliyahu:
DHK,
Thanks for your post.
But Darby didn't rule out the Heavenly Universal Church mentioned in Ephesians 1, even though he explained and worked for the local churches.
They are only universal in the sense that they have their apostate churches in literally every nation of the world, just as the Islam has spread its tentacles into all the world. Islam is also a "universal" religion.The main problem with RC's Catholic is that they consider it as a compromising with the worldly things, which makes "Catholic" a very much secular concept, converting "Universal" as "generally acceptable or worldly" far away from sanctified, consecrated assembly of the born-again believers.
This concept is wrong. Their are denomination because of wrong doctrine--doctrinal error. There are no denominations in the Bible. Granted, there may be some believers in most denominations. There may be some denominations which are so liberal that there are no believers. It is better to speak of those that have a personal relationship with Christ, that is those that are saved, rather than the denomination that they are in. All believers are in the family of God.The concept of Heavenly Universal Church is quite important when we notice many denominations compete each other and sometimes struggle each other even though they are truly believers and parts of one Body.
Why? What original concept and importance did they have. They were the first group to paganize true Christianity. They brought idolatry into Christianity, and a watered-down form of Christianity to the pagans and made it acceptable to them. That is what Catholicism did. Biblical Christianity has always lived outside of Catholicism.In that aspect, I don't want to ignore the original concept and importance of Catholic Church.
Not all PB are saved; not all Baptists are saved. There is no denomnination in which all members are saved. The Bible does not speak of denominations. Ephesians was written to the saints at Ephesus. It was not written to the denomination at Ephesus. As a rule Baptists (especially IFB) practice ecclesiastical separation. That is we separate ourselves from those denominations that have gone apostate or do not preach the gospel of Christ. There are many churches that no longer preach the gospel, that today deny the fundamentals of the faith. Go back in history. Even Spurgeon fought against heresy. Then it was known as the "Downgrade Controversy."Whenever I encounter other denominations ( Plymouth Brethren don't consider themselves as a denomination), we can be generous and can tolerate the other true believers, as long as they are born-again believers at least, if we keep in mind the Heavenly, Consecrated, Holy Universal Church.
True.If anyone is truly born again in the Lord, then such person has become a member of the Family of God.
Even the Bible speaks about church order. Paul wrote to Timothy and Titus about church government and order in the church.It is interesting that PB doesn't have any head quarter, no general assembly, because they believe the Head Quarter is in heaven and the Superintendant is Jesus Christ, the Chairman is our God.
I hope you don't misunderstand about the offices of the church. PB discern that there are only 2 offices in the assembly: Elder(=Overseer) and Deacon.Originally posted by DHK:
They knew nothing of the concept of any universal church. It was unknown at that time, and it is a relatively new concept in church history. Look how the WEB translation renders Eph.5
Paul was mentioning about the Universal Assembly apparently in Eph 1:22-23.
The proper translation of ekklesian is assembly or congregation. It cannot be translated as universal. A universal assembly is impossible. It will only happen when we as, all believers, will gather or assemble together in heaven.
Ekklesia doesn't limit to local assemblies and can contain Universal as we can see in Eph 1:22-23. Assembly is not limited to the local churches. From God's point of view, all the assemblies are one, a Bride for Jesus Christ, even now she is under formation, but we can still say that there is Universal Assembly.
They are only universal in the sense that they have their apostate churches in literally every nation of the world, just as the Islam has spread its tentacles into all the world. Islam is also a "universal" religion.
Please note the words that I mentioned: Heavenly Universal Church, which means Assembly of the people who have been born again and sanctified by the blood of Jesus and formed of broken body of Christ, invisible and spritual world.
What I meant is quite different from what RC says.
All believers are in the family of God.
This is what I meant by Heavenly Universal Church as our citizenship is in the heaven!
Why? What original concept and importance did they have. They were the first group to paganize true Christianity. They brought idolatry into Christianity, and a watered-down form of Christianity to the pagans and made it acceptable to them. That is what Catholicism did. Biblical Christianity has always lived outside of Catholicism .
I agree to what you are saying, but the problem resulted from misuse of Universal concept by Catholic, and we find the original meaning in the Bible.
There is no denomnination in which all members are saved. The Bible does not speak of denominations . PB strongly reject denomination concept.
it speaks nothing about a universal church (assembly)which by definition is a contradiction of terms.
It has nothing to do with Universal Assembly, but there is such meaning of Universal in the Bible.
--This church had a general assembly on earth with bishops (overseers or pastors), and deacons. These people were not in heaven overseeing the church. They were right there in Philippi having oversight of the church and serving it as servants of God, contrary to the PB doctrine.
DHK [/QB]
#1. Are you guys just arguing semantics while saying the same thing?DHK said --
This concept is wrong. Their are denomination because of wrong doctrine--doctrinal error. There are no denominations in the Bible. Granted, there may be some believers in most denominations. There may be some denominations which are so liberal that there are no believers. It is better to speak of those that have a personal relationship with Christ, that is those that are saved, rather than the denomination that they are in. All believers are in the family of God.
All good points. What are the options?Originally posted by SpiritualMadMan:
I am not sure that any church that Proclaims that Jesus is the Son of God, Man's Only Hope of Salvation can be properly called a 'Cult' in the sense most of us react to that word...
We may need a better word for churches with a higher than tolerable level of error?
But, then I've been accousted by some KJV-O people whose only goal appeared to be to get me converted to the KJV...
And, to these particular ones, it was more important than life itself...
How do we rate them? They sure seem to have an idol. Though a noble one. A idol nonetheless...
Have you ever heard the Gospel preached by Catholic?Originally posted by SpiritualMadMan:
But, when a group is in Clear Error, as is the Catholic Church, yet holds to the teaching of the Gospel in some form...
I guess for some **ALL** Catholics are Saducess and Pharisess and there are no Nicodemuses to be found?
[/QB]
There are a lot of televangelists that fit in the above category, too. And, they aren't smart enough to tremble!Do they believe there is one God? Devils also believe and tremble ( James 2:19)
Originally posted by BobRyan:
[QB] quote:
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The concept of Heavenly Universal Church is quite important when we notice many denominations compete each other and sometimes struggle each other even though they are truly believers and parts of one Body.
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#1. Are you guys just arguing semantics while saying the same thing ?DHK said --
All believers are in the family of God.
------------------------------------------
Actually this is quite interesting and important subject which have to be discussed sincerely among the true believers, but I think this is not suitalbe for this thread and I found another thread called " ekklesia" opened by wopik. If you agree, let's move there. If we have only local churches and the heavenly universal church will become available only after Lord's coming, then we are miserable. I am glad that we have Truly, Heavenly Universal Assembly even now and I belong to it which is still under construction and I myself is a brick used in building it up.
The main target of God is to build up this Heavenly Universal Church ( Assembly) and therefore it is quite important to know about this.
You better discern them carefully, about how they were saved. They may confess no experience of salvation, because they believe one can be born again by Holy Baptism which means infant baptism, and they interpret John 6 as taking Eucharist, they believe that they should go to the Purgatory. Is that salvation? How many million years do they have to spend in Purgatory?Originally posted by mcneely:
By the way, I don't often see Practicing Catholics Trembling and running and Hiding from God. I often see them praying to him. Thanking him for his blessings and asking forgiveness of their sins. (Yes, I know MANY Catholics. And I have witnessed these things.)
---Justin
Many "millions" of Catholics are "won" every year through the process of explaining the Bible to them. This is in fact "common ground" though you may think of them as "anti-Bible" at times.Originally posted by Bro. James:
All of this raving and ranting--does not resolve anything. There is no way to logically argue when all parties cannot agree to a standard. In the present dilemma, the scripture as the sole rule of faith and practice versus the scripture and the traditions of men decides the rules, cannot be resolved--it is an impasse.
That has to be our focus. If we ever diverge from the bible-centered focus on RC error/history etc then it would eventually just turn into nothing more than "Catholic bashing".Preach the Word, let the Holy Spirit convince of sin, righteousness and judgement to come. The lost sheep will hear His voice, and they will follow Him, in spite of all the soul-winning efforts of those who somehow seem to be keeping score. God knows them that are His.
Be objective for a minute.Originally posted by mcneely:
Catholicism isn't a cult.
.., Catholics beleive that God sent his only son to die on the Cross for our sins, and that he was the ultimate sacrifice for us. They believe he was raised from the dead, and ascended into Heaven, and is seated at the right hand of the Father. And they believe That He is the one true God in three Divine and equal beings.
All of your little antagonistic authors of these silly books can't convince me that a church that teaches and believes these things is a Cult influenced by Satan. And really, they shouldn't be convincing you either.
---Justin