Roman Catholicism , cult or not? Part II

[Bro. James]

Most folks believe exactly what they want--regardless of the facts.

Satan is redoubling his efforts in confusion, deception and delusion--he knows time is running short.

"you shall know the Truth and the Truth shall make you free".

What are we doing with the "woman" in Rev. 17:4-7? The Scripture says she is drunk with the blood of the saints. Who is she?
Selah,

Bro. James

 

[mcneely]

Originally posted by Bro. James:
Most folks believe exactly what they want--regardless of the facts.

Satan is redoubling his efforts in confusion, deception and delusion--he knows time is running short.

"you shall know the Truth and the Truth shall make you free".

What are we doing with the "woman" in Rev. 17:4-7? The Scripture says she is drunk with the blood of the saints. Who is she?
Selah,

Bro. James

Are you referring to this nonsense of how the RCC is the "woman on the beast" and the "mother of harlots"? It seems that other respected Baptist theologists would disagree with you (ex., Charles Caldwell Ryrie). If you are basing your interpretation upon the darker chapters of the RCC's history, I believe you will find that the Baptist movement has it's own dark past if you are willing to address it. (Not many on your side of the fence seem to be.)

---Justin

 

[tragic_pizza]

I'm continually fascinated at the number of otherwise intelligent people who confuse the references in Revelation to the secular, pagan government of the era -- the government which was actively persecuting Christians -- with an as-yet-unknown Church.

This view ignores many factors, and impresses one's own presuppositions and prejudices on the inspired Word of God. This is, to say the least, inadvisable.

 

[Bro. James]

Would we say a church was in charge of the Holy Roman Empire? Also consider Henry VIII and Bloody Mary with their respective forms of government controlled by the church.

New Testament churches have considered the papacy to be a type of antichrist ever since the "church" was married to the Roman Empire by Constantine the Great in the 4th century. This statement is still true in our day.

After a millenium of trying to eradicate The Bride of Christ, now everything is O.K.? That is a lot of ecumenical rubbish. The daughters may go back to the mother, but not The Bride. She has never had anything to do with Rome--except to flee from the wrath of the Spirit of Antichrist. The mystery of iniquity already works.

Selah,

Bro. James

 

[Bro. James]

Dark side of the Baptist Movement--do you have the address in Munster? Most of what most people know about Munster they got from the enemies of Baptists. It is a smoke screen mostly to cover a dilemma of lack of authority.

Study that one.

Selah,

Bro. James

 

[D28guy]

Justin,

"it seems that everyone here who is trying to beat Catholics over the head with a nice big KJV Bible are imploding in the face of irrefutible facts."

I'd like to know how that can be when the indisputable facts are on the side of those speaking out against the Catholic Church.

Mike

 

[Matt Black]

Just this, Mike: when Kamaroso and Bro James are asked to produce actual evidence to support their claims, there is a deafening silence. Facts have to be established by evidence and so far there is none. I have asked time and again, as have others here, for contemporary primary source documents to support their contentions and so far all we have had is:

1. An appeal to the Bible. All very good and proper, but hardly a primary historical source document for the period 313-1160 (or 1517).

2. Accusation of lying - but no evidence

3. Denial of the Anabaptist lawlessness and immorality at Munster - but again no evidence to countermand the wealth of contemporary documentary evidence which establishes the fact of the debacle of Munster.

So, to sum up, nothing. Now, unless anyone has possession of or access to primary source documents from the period 313-1160 (ie: not #1,#2 or #3 above) to support their claim that there were 'New Testament churches' which were evangelical or Baptistic in their theology outside of the Catholic-Orthodox Church (or Churches after 1054), case closed.

 

[D28guy]

Matt Black,

Here is some interesting information for you. I've perused this information many times and found it very beneficial.

If I'm not mistaken, this entire work(many books) is available for reading from the internet, and should be accesible from my link.

Here is an introduction to him and his work...

"James A. Wylie's History of Protestantism was first published in 1878. It is a massive work that covers the beginnings of Christianity to the Glorious Revolution in Great Britain in 1688. A .pdf (Adobe Acrobat) version is available at http://www.reformation.org/wylie2.html.

The following quote on J. A. Wylie is taken from a publisher's Preface by Mourne Missionary Press:

"The Rev. James Aitken Wylie was for many years a leading Protestant spokesman. Born in Scotland in 1808, he was educated at Marischal College, Aberdeen and at St. Andrews; he entered the Original Seccession Divinity Hall, Edinburgh in 1827, and was ordained in 1831. Dr. Wylie became sub-editor of the Edinburgh Witness in 1846, and, after joining the Free Church of Scotland in 1852, edited the Free Church Record from 1852 until 1860. In 1860 he was appointed Lecturer on Popery at the Protestant Institute, a position he held until the year of his death. Aberdeen University awarded him the LL.D. in 1856."

Since this work is large, it is presented in segments of books. There are 24 books in 3 volumes.

Here are a few excerpts...

"The apostasy was not universal. At no time did God leave His ancient Gospel without witnesses. When one body of confessors yielded to the darkness, or was cut off by violence, another arose in some other land, so that there was no age in which, in some country or other of Christendom, public testimony was not borne against the errors of Rome, and in behalf of the Gospel which she sought to destroy.

The country in which we find the earliest of these Protesters is Italy....."

"......The evangelical light shone there some centuries after the darkness had gathered in the southern part of the peninsula. Ambrose, who died A.D. 397, was Bishop of Milan for twenty-three years. His theology, and that of his diocese, was in no essential respects different from that which Protestants hold at this day. The Bible alone was his rule of faith; Christ alone was the foundation of the Church; the justification of the sinner and the remission of sins were not of human merit, but by the expiatory sacrifice of the Cross; there were but two Sacraments, Baptism and the Lord's Supper, and in the latter Christ was held to be present only figuratively. Such is a summary of the faith professed and taught by the chief bishop of the north of Italy in the end of the fourth century......"

"....Rufinus, of Aquileia, first metropolitan in the diocese of Milan, taught substantially the same doctrine in the fifth century. His treatise on the Creed no more agrees with the catechism of the Council of Trent than does the catechism of Protestants. His successors at Aquileia, so far as can be gathered from the writings which they have left behind them, shared the sentiments of Rufinus....."

"....In the seventh century we find Mansuetus, Bishop of Milan, declaring that the whole faith of the Church is contained in the Apostles' Creed; from which it is evident that he did not regard as necessary to salvation the additions which Rome had then begun to make, and the many she has since appended to the apostolic doctrine....."

"....But as regards the cardinal doctrines of salvation, the faith of these men was essentially Protestant, and stood out in bold antagonism to the leading principles of the Roman creed. And such, with more or less of clearness, must be held to have been the profession of the pastors over whom they presided. And the Churches they ruled and taught were numerous and widely planted. They flourished in the towns and villages which dot the vast plain that stretches like a garden for 200 miles along the foot of the Alps; they existed in those romantic and fertile valleys over which the great mountains hang their pine forests and snows, and, passing the summit, they extended into the southern provinces of France, even as far as to the Rhone, on the banks of which Polycarp, the disciple of John, in early times had planted the Gospel, to be watered in the succeeding centuries by the blood of thousands of martyrs. Darkness gives relief to the light, and error necessitates a fuller development and a clearer definition of truth. On this principle the ninth century produced the most remarkable perhaps of all those great champions who strove to set limits to the growing superstition, and to preserve, pure and undefiled, the faith which apostles had preached....."

"......The truth, drawn from its primeval fountains, he proclaimed throughout his diocese, which included the valleys of the Waldenses. Where his voice could not reach, he labored to convey instruction by his pen. He wrote commentaries on the Gospels; he published expositions of almost all the epistles of Paul, and several books of the Old Testament; and thus he furnished his contemporaries with the means of judging how far it became them to submit to a jurisdiction so manifestly usurped as that of Rome, or to embrace tenets so undeniably novel as those which she was now foisting upon the world. The sum of what Claude maintained was that there is but one Sovereign in the Church, and He is not on earth; that Peter had no superiority over the other apostles, save in this, that he was the first who preached the Gospel to both Jews and Gentiles; that human merit is of no avail for salvation, and that faith alone saves us. On this cardinal point he insists with a clearness and breadth which remind one of Luther. The authority of tradition he repudiates, prayers for the dead he condemns, as also the notion that the Church cannot err. As regards relics, instead of holiness he can find in them nothing but rottenness, and advises that they be instantly returned to the grave, from which they ought never to have been taken...."

".....Claudius, however, thought that the Lord's Supper was a memorial of Christ's death, and not a repetition of it, and that the elements of bread and wine were only symbols of the flesh and blood of the Savior. It is clear from this that transubstantiation was unknown in the ninth century to the Churches at the foot of the Alps. Nor was it the Bishop of Turin only who held this doctrine of the Eucharist; we are entitled to infer that the bishops of neighboring dioceses, both north and south of the Alps, shared the opinion of Claude. For though they differed from him on some other points, and did not conceal their difference, they expressed no dissent from his views respecting the Sacrament, and in proof of their concurrence in his general policy, strongly urged him to continue his expositions of the Sacred Scriptures....."

"......The worship of images was then making rapid strides. The Bishop of Rome was the great advocate of this ominous innovation; it was on this point that Claude fought his great battle. He resisted it with all the logic of his pen and all the force of his eloquence; he condemned the practice as idolatrous, and he purged those churches in his diocese which had begun to admit representations of saints and divine persons within their walls, not even sparing the cross itself. It is instructive to mark that the advocates of images in the ninth century justified their use of them by the very same arguments which Romanists employ at this day; and that Claude refutes them on the same ground taken by Protestant writers still...."

Click here for access

God bless,

Mike

 

[Bro. James]

Matthew,

The real question is: Will our religious endeavors in this life get a well done, good and faithful servant; or depart from me I never knew you?

There is a preponderance of evidence which supports the fact that Jesus has preserved His Bride in every generation, in spite of Satan's effort to destroy Her.

Apparently our paradyms for evidence do not agree. Which will survive the fire? See I Cor. 3:11-23. Standing at the "bar of God" trumps "the bar of man" in the final analysis.

 

[Matt Black]

...and all very good I'm sure, but the document ie: book concerned dates from 1878, which is not the period under discussion here

[reply to Mike; Bro James, you refer to there being evidence but don't adduce it. Why?]

 

[Chemnitz]

11. The water, then, is that in which the flesh is dipped, that all carnal sin may be washed away.
All wickedness is there buried.
Ambrose - On the Mysteries


20. Therefore read that the three witnesses in baptism, the water, the blood, and the Spirit,2848
are one, for if you take away one of these, the Sacrament of Baptism does not exist. For what is
water without the cross of Christ? A common element, without any sacramental effect. Nor, again,
is there the Sacrament of Regeneration without water: “For except a man be born again of water
and of the Spirit, he cannot enter into the kingdom of God.”2849 Now, even the catechumen believes
in the cross of the Lord Jesus, wherewith he too is signed; but unless he be baptized in the Name
of the Father, and of the Son, and of the Holy Spirit, he cannot receive remission of sins nor gain
the gift of spiritual grace.

St Ambrose - On the Mysteries

Concerning Holy Communion
It is the true Flesh of Christ which crucified and buried, this
is then truly the Sacrament of His Body.
54. The Lord Jesus Himself proclaims: “This is My Body.”2898 Before the blessing of the heavenly
words another nature is spoken of, after the consecration the Body is signified. He Himself speaks
325
of His Blood. Before the consecration it has another name, after it is called Blood. And you say,
Amen, that is, It is true. Let the heart within confess what the mouth utters, let the soul feel what
the voice speaks.
St Ambrose - ON the Mysteries

I am supposed to trust Mr. Wylie when he can't even get his facts straight? St. Ambrose sounds pretty Catholic to me.

 

[Matt Black]

Ah, well, that's the problem when you don't do your research properly - even when the primary source docs exist, you fail to use them I'm accordingly not sure I'd trust Mr Wylie to sit the right way round on a bathroom seat...

 

[Eliyahu]

Originally posted by Matt Black:

3. Denial of the Anabaptist lawlessness and immorality at Munster - but again no evidence to countermand the wealth of contemporary documentary evidence which establishes the fact of the debacle of Munster.

[/QB]

Munster Inccident was not a good example for Anabaptists.
Some bastard mobs penetrated into the crowd and defaced the movement. Even the leaders were involved in Polygamy. In that aspect, Satan succeeded in there quite a lot. It's a big shame to the Believers when they got astray from the Way.
Some fair judgment on Munster can be found in Pilgrim Church by EH Broadbent
http://ourworld.compuserve.com/homepages/thailand/PC-B-000.htm

 

[Bro. James]

Primary source documents,that is, originals, have not been found for the Bible--we have many copies from several generations. Does this make the Bible suspect as to authenticity and verity? Some super seminarians would have us to believe so.

These copies may not have the "raised seal" of a human magistrate, but the seal of God is all over the pages. This is what sola scriptura is about. If we have no infallible revelation from God, we have only the commandments of depraved men on which to depend for eternity.

Jesus said He would not leave us without a Comforter. He has been faithful, even though man has not--man cannot be faithful--he is depraved. Only God can give the faith to believe. "Our" faith will not suffice--we have no such commodity, only a "free-will" which is in bondage to our carnal nature, which knows not how to be "good".

The who, what and why at Munster? Please consider: history is written by those victorious, righteous or not. Some "historians" had a tendancy to put all "heretical" groups in one basket--in this case they were called Anabaptists. We do the same thing today: there is no such thing as The Baptist Church, The Baptist Movement, etc. etc. One more: true Baptists are not part of the so-called Protestant Reformation in the 16th century, started by a de-frocked Romish priest, trying to reform the excesses of the Holy See. The notable others who followed were also defrocked priests of the same Holy See. One might consider that which came from Canterbury: basically the same doctrine with a new pope: Henry VIII. It all came from Rome folks.

Now what? See Rev. 17:5

Selah,

Bro. James

 

[Matt Black]

OK, fine, but you haven't even produced copies of any documents dating from that period. I'll accept copies, but do you have them?

 

[DHK]

Originally posted by tragic_pizza:
I'm continually fascinated at the number of otherwise intelligent people who confuse the references in Revelation to the secular, pagan government of the era -- the government which was actively persecuting Christians -- with an as-yet-unknown Church.

This view ignores many factors, and impresses one's own presuppositions and prejudices on the inspired Word of God. This is, to say the least, inadvisable.

I believe it is the Christians of today that are confused. They are confused primarily because of the Catholics who have tried to rewrite and revise history and if they have convinced you then they are obviously succeeding.

Consider the same scenario in a more modern setting.
In Afghanistan a man is about to be executed undet the civil law of Afghanistan because he converted from Islam to Christianity. It is only because of the tremendous political pressure put on Afghanistan by western and European nations that they found some loophole and backed away. Most often these cased do not draw international cases and thousands are executed every year in nations such as Pakistan, Saudia Arabia, etc. Who does the execution? The government or the religious power? In all three of the above nations the Koran is supreme. The government in place governs according to their interpretation of the Koran, which means the execution of infidels. Is it the religion that commands the execution or the leader of the country? The two are one and the same. They are inseparable.
And so it was in Rome. The religion and the government was inseparable. The religious leaders was the government. So-called Christianity was a state religion just as Islam is a state religion in Afghanistan where they are trying to execute that convert to Christianity. It was Rome (so-called Christian Rome) that poured on the execution of true believers. It was all sanctioned by the pope, and pope has the blood of the martyr of the saints of millions on his hands to this day.
DHK

 

[tragic_pizza]

The Catholic Church rewrote Revelation, then? Or is there some other point you;re making?

 

[DHK]

The Catholic Church does not understand Revelation. It allegorizes it. In Revelation 20 it does not even admit that one thousand years means one thousand years though that time period is mentioned many years.
Oddly enough, one of the greatest apologist for the Catholic Church, Scott Hahn, admits that Rome is indeed Babylon. At the end of Peter's first epistle, Peter writes:

1 Peter 5:13 The church that is at Babylon, elected together with you, saluteth you; and so doth Marcus my son.

Hahn, in defence of Peter being at Rome, claims that Rome is Babylon. This being so the same Rome is protrayed in Revelation 17 as the mother of harlots, the Great Whore.

Revelation 17:5-6 And upon her forehead was a name written, MYSTERY, BABYLON THE GREAT, THE MOTHER OF HARLOTS AND ABOMINATIONS OF THE EARTH. And I saw the woman drunken with the blood of the saints, and with the blood of the martyrs of Jesus: and when I saw her, I wondered with great admiration.

How true this description has been throughout the ages.

But yes it has been true, Catholics have tried to distance themselves from the atrocities of "governments" when it has been Catholic governments, sanctioned and promoted by the popes to do as much evil as possible to Bible believing Christians. The Inquistions and the Crusades were ordered by Popes.
DHK

 

[tragic_pizza]

But at the time of the writing of Revelation, Rome was not the center of Catholicism, was it?

Rome was the center of political power, and the base from which persecution of all Christians was ordered. Nothing more, but certainly nothing less.

So, yes, Babylon is a Biblical metaphor for Rome, but Rome was not synonymous with the catholic Church.

 

[D28guy]

Matt,

You dont think the guy writing those 25 books didnt do his research? Didnt have footnotes? Didnt get his information from trustworthy sources?

Here are his creditials...

James Aitken Wylie was born in Scotland in 1808. "The steps of a good man are ordered by the LORD" (Psalm 37:23). His collegiate preparation was at Marischal College, Aberdeen (a North Sea port city and industrial center of northeastern Scotland) and at St. Andrews (Fife, East Scotland). "It is good for a man that he bear the yoke in his youth" (Lamentations 3:27). Though we could find no account of his conversion, he entered the Original Seccession Divinity Hall, Edinburgh (Scotland, the land of John Knox) in 1827, and was ordained to the Christian ministry in 1831; hence, the name "Rev. J. A. Wylie" is affixed to most of his written works. "And that from a child thou hast known the Holy Scriptures, which are able to make thee wise unto salvation through faith which is in Christ Jesus" (2Timothy 3:15).

His disposition to use the pen as a mighty "Sword of the LORD" (Judges 7:18) is evidenced by his assumption of the sub-editorship of the Edinburgh "Witness" in 1846. "My tongue is the pen of a ready writer" (Psalm 45:1). In 1852, after joining the Free Church of Scotland--which was only inaugurated in 1843 (Dr. Chalmers as moderator), insisting on the Crown Rights of King Jesus as the only Head and King of the Church--Wylie edited their "Free Church Record" until 1860. "Stand fast therefore in the liberty wherewith Christ hath made us free, and be not entangled again with the yoke of bondage" (Galatians 5:1). The Protestant Institute appointed him Lecturer on Popery in 1860. He continued in this role until his death in 1890. "Casting down imaginations, and every high thing that exalteth itself against the knowledge of God, and bringing into captivity every thought to the obedience of Christ" (2Corinthians 10:5).

Aberdeen University awarded him an honorary doctorate (LL.D.) in 1856. "Yea doubtless, and I count all things but loss for the excellency of the knowledge of Christ Jesus my LORD: for whom I have suffered the loss of all things, and do count them but dung, that I may win Christ" (Philippians 3:8). His travels took him to many of the far-flung places, where the events of Protestant history transpired. "So, as much as in me is, I am ready to preach the Gospel to you that are at Rome also" (Romans 1:15). As a prominent spokesman for Protestantism, Dr. Wylie's writings included The Papacy: Its History, Dogmas, Genius, and Prospects--which was awarded a prize by the Evangelical Alliance in 1851--and, his best known writing, "The History of Protestantism" (1878). "Beloved, when I gave all diligence to write unto you of the Common Salvation, it was needful for me to write unto you, and exhort you that ye should earnestly contend for the Faith which was once delivered unto the Saints" (Jude 3).

And here is an example of the kind of footnotes his books contain...

FOOTNOTES

VOLUME FIRST

BOOK FIRST

VOLUME FIRST- BOOK FIRST- CHAPTER 1
none

VOLUME FIRST- BOOK FIRST- CHAPTER 2
[1] Eusebius, De Vita Const., lib. 4, cap. 27. Dupin, Eccles. Hist., vol. 1, p. 162; Dublin. 1723.
[2] Eusebius, De Vita Const., lib. 4, cap. 24. Mosheim, Eccles. Hist., vol. 1, cent. 4, p. 94; Glasgow, 1831.
[3] Eusebius, Eccles. Hist., lib. 3, cap. 12, p. 490; Parisiis, 1659. Dupin, Eccles. Hist., vol. 2, p. 14; Lond., 1693.
[4] Baronius admits that many things have been laudably translated from Gentile superstition into the Christian religion (Annal., ad An. 58). And Binnius, extolling the munificence of Constantine towards the Church, speaks of his superstitionis gentiliae justa aemulatio ("just emulation of the Gentile superstition"). — Concil., tom. 7, notae in Donat. Constan.
[5] Ammian. Marcel., lib. 27, cap. 3. Mosheim, vol. 1, cent. 4, p. 95.
[6] Nisan corresponds with the latter half of our March and the first half of our April.
[7] The Council of Nicaea, A.D. 325, enacted that the 21st of March should thenceforward be accounted the vernal equinox, that the Lord's Day following the full moon next after the 21st of March should be kept as Easter Day, but that if the full moon happened on a Sabbath, Easter Day should be the Sabbath following. This is the canon that regulates the observance of Easter in the Church of England. "Easter Day," says the Common Prayer Book, "is always the first Sunday after the full moon which happens upon or next after the 21st day of March; and if the full moon happens upon a Sunday, Easter Day is the Sunday after."
[8] Bennet's Memorial of the Reformation, p. 20; Edin., 1748. 986
[9] These customs began thus. In times of persecution, assemblies often met in churchyards as the place of greatest safety, and the "elements" were placed on the tombstones. It became usual to pray that the dead might be made partakers in the "first resurrection." This was grounded on the idea which the primitive Christians entertained respecting the millennium. After Gregory I., prayers for the dead regarded their deliverance from purgatory.
[10] Dupin, EccIes. Hist., vol. 1, cent. 3.

VOLUME FIRST- BOOK FIRST- CHAPTER 3
[1] Hardouin, Acta Concil., tom. 1, col 325; Parisiis, 1715. Dupin, Eccles. Hist., vol. 1, p. 600; Dublin edition.
[2] Hard. 1. 1477; 2. 787,886. Baron. 6. 235.
[3] Muller, Univ. History, vol. 2, p. 21; Lond., 1818.
[4] Muller, vol. 2, p. 23.
[5] Muller, vol. 2, p. 74.
[6] We quote from the copy of the document in Pope Leo's letter in Hardouin's Collection. Epistola I., Leonis Papoe IX.; Acta Conciliorum et Epistoloe Decretales, tom. 6, pp. 934, 936; Parisiis, 1714. The English reader will find a copy of the pretended original document in full in Historical Essay on the Power of the Popes, vol. 2, Appendix, tr. from French; London, 1838.
[7] Etudes Religieuses, November, 1866.
[8] The Pope and the Council, by "Janus," p. 105; London, 1869.
[9] The above statement regarding the mode of electing bishops during the first three centuries rests on the authority of Clement, Bishop of Rome, in the first century; Cyprian, Bishop of Carthage, in the third century; and of Gregory Nazianzen. See also De Dominis, De Repub. Eccles.; Blondel, Apologia; Dean Waddington; Barrow, Supremacy; and Mosheim, Eccl. Hist., cent. 1.

VOLUME FIRST- BOOK FIRST- CHAPTER 4
[1] The Pope and the Council, p. 107.
[2] Binnius, Concilia, vol. 3, pars. 2, p. 297; Col. Agrip., 1618. 987
[3] Hallam, 2. 276.
[4] Hallam, 2. 284.
[5] P. Innocent III. in Decret. Greg., lib. 1, tit. 33.
[6] "Spiritualium plenitudinem, et latitudinem temporalium."
[7] Itinerar. Ital., part 2, De Coron. Rom. Pont.
[8] "Oportet gladium esse sub gladio, et temporalem authoritatem spirituali subjici potestati. Ergo, si deviat terrena potestas judicabitur a potestate spirituali." (Corp. Jur. Can. a Pithoeo, tom. 2, Extrav., lib. 1, tit. 8, cap. 1; Paris, 1671.)
[9] Paradiso, canto 24.
[10] Le Rime del Petrarca, tome 1, p. 325. ed. Lod. Castel.
[11] Baronius, Annal., ann. 1000, tom. 10, col. 963; Col. Agrip., 1609.

VOLUME FIRST- BOOK FIRST- CHAPTER 5
[1] Allix, Ancient Churches of Piedmont, chap. 1; Lond., 1690. M'Crie, Italy, p. 1; Edin., 1833.
[2] "Is mos antiquus fuit." (Labbei et Gab. Cossartii Concil., tom. 6, col. 482; Venetiis, 1729.)
[3] A mistake of the historian. It was under Nicholas II. (1059) that the independence of Milan was extinguished. Platina's words are: — "Che [chiesa di Milano] era forse ducento anni stata dalla chiesa di Roma separata." (Historia delle Vite dei Sommi Pontefici, p. 128; Venetia, 1600.)
[4] Baronius, Annal., ann. 1059, tom. 11, col. 277; Col. Agrip., 1609.
[5] Allix, Churches of Piedmont, chap. 3.
[6] "This is not bodily but spiritual food," says St. Ambrose, in his Book of Mysteries and Sacraments, "for the body of the Lord is spiritual." (Dupin, Eccles. Hist., vol. 2, cent. 4.)
[7] Allix, Churches of Piedmont, chap. 4.
[8] Ibid., chap. 5.
[9] Allix, Churches of Piedmont, chap. 8. 988
[10] "Of all these works there is nothing printed," says Allix (p. 60), "but his commentary upon the Epistle to the Galatians. The monks of St. Germain have his commentary upon all the epistles in MS., in two volumes, which were found in the library of the Abbey of Fleury, near Orleans. They have also his MS. commentaries on Leviticus, which formerly belonged to the library of St. Remy at Rheims. As for his commentary on St. Matthew, there are several MS. copies of it in England, as well as elsewhere." See also list of his works in Dupin.
[11] See Mosheim, Eccles. Hist., cent. 9.
[12] "Hic [panis] ad corpus Christi mystice, illud [vinum] refertur ad sanguinem" (MS. of Com. on Matthew.)
[13] Allix, chap. 10.
[14] Dupin, Eccles. Hist., cent. 9. The worship of images was decreed by the second Council of Nice; but that decree was rejected by France, Spain, Germany, and the diocese of Milan. The worship of images was moreover condemned by the Council of Frankfort, 794. Claude, in his letter to Theodemir, says: — "Appointed bishop by Louis, I came to Turin. I found all the churches full of the filth of abominations and images... If Christians venerate the images of saints, they have not abandoned idols, but only changed their names." (Mag. Bib., tome 4, part 2, p. 149.)
[15] Allix, chap. 9.
[16] Allix, pp. 76, 77.
[17] Dupin, Eccles. Hist., cent. 9.
[18] Allix, chap. 9.
[19] Dupin, vol. 7, p. 2; Lond., 1695.
[20] Allix, cent. 9.

VOLUME FIRST- BOOK FIRST- CHAPTER 6
[1] Baronius, Annal., ann. 1059, tom. 11, cols. 276, 277.
[2] Petrus Damianus, Opusc., p. 5. Allix, Churches of Piedmont, p. 113. M'Crie, Hist. of Reform. in Italy, p. 2. 989
[3] Recent German criticism refers the Nobla Leycon to a more recent date, but still one anterior to the Reformation.
[4] This short description of the Waldensian valleys is drawn from the author's personal observations. He may here be permitted to state that he has, in successive journeys, continued at intervals during the past thirty-five years, traveled over Christendom, and visited all the countries, Popish and Protestant, of which he will have occasion particularly to speak in the course of this history.

VOLUME FIRST- BOOK FIRST- CHAPTER 7
[1] This disproves the charge of Manicheism brought against them by their enemies.
[2] Sir Samuel Morland gives the Nobla Leycon in full in his History of the Churches of the Waldenses. Allix (chap. 18) gives a summary of it.
[3] The Nobla Leycon has the following passage: — "If there be an honest man, who desires to love God and fear Jesus Christ, who will neither slander, nor swear, nor lie, nor commit adultery, nor kill, nor steal, nor avenge himself of his enemies, they presently say of such a one he is a Vaudes, and worthy of death."
[4] See a list of numerous heresies and blasphemies charged upon the Waldenses by the Inquisitor Reynerius, who wrote about the year 1250, and extracted by Allix (chap. 22).
[5] The Romaunt Version of the Gospel according to John, from MS. preserved in Trinity College, Dublin, and in the Bibliotheque du Roi, Paris. By William Stephen Gilly, D.D., Canon of Durham, and Vicar of Norham. Lond., 1848.
[6] Stranski, apud Lenfant's Concile de Constance, quoted by Count Valerian Krasinski in his History of the Rise, Progress, and Decline of the Reformation in Poland, vol. 1, p. 53; Lond., 1838. Illyricus Flaccins, in his Catalogus Testium Veritatis (Amstelodami, 1679), says: "Pars Valdensium in Germaniam transiit atque apud Bohemos, in Polonia ac Livonia sedem fixit." Leger says that the Waldenses had, about the year 1210, Churches in Slavonia, Sarmatia, and Livonia. (Histoire Generale des Eglises Evangeliques des Vallees du Piedmont ou Vaudois. vol. 2, pp. 336, 337; 1669.) 990
[7] M'Crie, Hist. Ref. in Italy, p. 4.
[8] Those who. wish to know more of this interesting people than is contained in the above rapid sketch may consult Leger, Des Eglises Evangeliques; Perrin, Hist. De Vaudois; Reynerius, Cont. Waldens.; Sir. S. Morland, History of the Evangelical Churches of Piedmont; Jones, Hist. Waldenses; Rorenco, Narative; besides a host of more modern writers — Gilly, Waldensian Researches; Muston, Israed of the Alps; Monastier, etc. etc.

VOLUME FIRST- BOOK FIRST- CHAPTER 8
[1] Manes taught that there were two principles, or gods, the one good and the other evil; and that the evil principle was the creator of this world, the good principle of the world to come. Manicheism was employed as a term of compendious condemnation in the East, as Heresy was in the West. It was easier to calumniate these men than to refute them. For such aspersions a very ancient precedent might be pleaded. "He hath a devil and is mad," was said of the Master. The disciple is not above his Lord.
[2] "Among the prominent charges urged against the Paulicians before the Patriarch of Constantinople in the eighth century, and by Photius and Petrus Siculus in the ninth, we find the following — that they dishonored the Virgin Mary, and rejected her worship; denied the life-giving efficacy of the cross, and refused it worship; and gainsaid the awful mystery of the conversion of the blood of Christ in the Eucharist; while by others they are branded as the originators of the Iconoclastic heresy and the war against the sacred images. In the first notice of the sectaries in Western Europe, I mean at Orleans, they were similarly accused of treating with contempt the worship of martyrs and saints, the sign of the holy cross, and mystery of transubstantiation; and much the same too at Arras." (Elliott, Horoe Apocalypticoe, 3rd ed., vol. 2, p. 277.)
[3] "Multos ex ovibus lupos fecit, et per eos Christi ovilia dissipavit." (Pet. Sic., Hist. Bib. Patr., vol. 16, p. 761.)
[4] Gibbon, vol. 10, p. 177; Edin., 1832. Sharon Turner, Hist. of England, vol. 5, p. 125; Lond., 1830.991
[5] Pet. Sic., p. 814.
[6] Emericus, in his Directory for Inquisitors, gives us the following piece of news, namely, that the founder of the Manicheans was a person called Manes, who lived in the diocese of Milan! (Allix, p. 134.)
[7] Mosheim, Eccl. Hist., cent. 11, part 2, chap. 5.
[8] Gibbon, Decline and Fall, vol. 10, p. 186. In perusing the chapter (54) which this historian has devoted to an account of the Paulicians, one hardly knows whether to be more delighted with his eloquence or amazed at his inconsistency. At one time he speaks of them as the "votaries of St. Paul and of Christ," and at another as the disciples of Manes. And though he says that "the Paulicians sincerely condemned the memory and opinions of the Manichean sect," he goes on to write of them as Manicheans. The historian has too slavishly followed his chief authority and their bitter enemy, Petrus Siculus.
[9] Gibbon, vol. 10, p. 185.
[10] Gerdesius, Historia Evangelii Renovati, tom. 1, p. 39; Groningae, 1744.

The truth has been presented many times, Matt. You can turn a blind eye to it all you want, but it wont change the truth.

Mike