Roman Catholicism , cult or not? Part II

[BobRyan]

That list just goes to show us how far man-made-tradition will go once it is unhinged and "Bible-free" in its superstitions.

 

[Bro. James]

Returning to the methodology of the Dark Ages--

Some would say the world has never left that condition. Man is still totally depraved.

The scripture says there will be those given over to strong delusion--such that they would believe a lie. That helps explain the world--the wolves in sheep's clothing who would deceive the elect--if that were possible.

Even so, come Lord Jesus.

Selah,

Bro. James

 

[D28guy]

Chemnitz,

Now if only they were telling the truth.

There are.

Rome of course say they arent. The problem is that Rome is utterly devoid of credibility.

Mike

 

[Chemnitz]

Rome of course say they arent. The problem is that Rome is utterly devoid of credibility.

Come on, quit posturing and post something of substance in response to the obvious contradiction between Ambrose's writings and Wylie's conclusions.

 

[D28guy]

Doubting Thomas,

"Wow...just as "scholory"(sic)...and "trustworthy" as the one you posted??"

Absolutly.

"You mean the kind with extensive footnotes but which mischaracterize the primary sources?"

I love you guys, I really do. But sometimes Catholic apologists just crack me up. Not just you guys, but the ones on EWTN and who write Catholic propaganda books.

I mean, this organisation just has no shame at all. They dont know when to quit. It becomes comical. They are the masters.

"Say ANYTHING, do ANYTHING, divert, attempt to confuse, slander, change the subject, attack the person, etc etc etc."

I've seen it all. On boards like this and others. In person talking with Catholics. On EWTN.

Its just amazing, but so very sad when one considers what is at stake.

Mike

 

[DHK]

CHRISTIANITY IN THE SECOND CENTURY

It is estimated that at the opening of this century, from two to three hundred Churches had been gathered, some of them thousands of miles apart. When the Apostles died, their authority died with them and they lived only in their writings. Their office did not allow of perpetuation, for they were the chosen witnesses of Christ’s life and work, and could not bequeath their oral testimony to others. When these orphaned flocks were left alone in all their humanness, their only directory was the Book by which the Apostles had transmitted their witness and revelations, under the infallible inspiration of the Holy Spirit. No miraculous agency was needed to supplement their writings, and the Awful Volume finished, their twelve thrones were left vacant. Woe to him who makes the Bible a footstool to climb into their empty seats. For the first time man was left on common ground, with the choice of making the unmixed authority of that book his guide to Christ, or of committing his soul to the lead of uninspired men. This fact alone put the Gospel to its severest test, and made the second century a most solemn period, as Christians had no alternative but to follow the New Book. How, then, did they bear themselves toward the Sacred Oracles?

Eusebius says, that they ‘Vied with each other in the preaching of Christ, and in the distribution of the Scriptures.’ The Epistle to the Thessalonians was written about twenty years after the crucifixion, and the last of the New Covenant books within fifty years thereafter. Probably Paul’s Epistles were first collected into one volume; but within half a century after the death of John, the four Gospels were publicly read in the Churches of Syria, Asia Minor, Italy and Gaul, and all the New Testament books were collected about A.D. 150. The first translation appears to have been the Syriac, called Peshito (literal), for its fidelity, rendered most faithfully into the common language of the Holy Land. Some think that our Lord’s exact language is better preserved in this version than in the Greek manuscripts themselves. J. Winchelaus, who devoted much research to its history, says that it preserves the letter of sacred Scripture truly, and Michaelis pronounces it ‘The very best translation of the New Testament that I have ever read.’

The Peshito throws a strong light upon the act of baptism in that age. The word which expresses that act is amad, which the Syriac lexicons define by ‘immerse.’ Bernstein uses these words: ‘He was dipped, immersed: he dipped or plunged himself into something.’ Michaelis declares, that this is the Syriac word which Jesus would use for baptism, in the vernacular language which he spoke. This version was read in the Christian assemblies, with the originals, and where they could not be understood by the people, interpreters rendered them into their mother tongue on the spot. In this age a Latin version was also made, which came into general use immediately. Woide ascribes the translation of the Sahidic, the dialect of Upper Egypt. and the Coptic, that of Lower Egypt, to this period. In the Latin, the word taptizn was rendered by the word tingo, to dip, or immerse; in the Sahidic it was transferred, evidently, because as a Greek term it was well understood in Upper Egypt; and in the Coptic it was translated by the word amas, to immerse or plunge. Latin versions were soon multiplied. Augustine says: ‘Those who have translated the Bible into Greek can be numbered, but not so the Latin versions; for in the first ages of the Church, whoever got hold of a Greek Codex, ventured to translate it into Latin.’ He also decides that the ancient Italic is the most literal of the Latin versions. Irenaeus, too, speaks of many barbarous tribes who had ‘salvation in their heart--without ink or paper;’ alluding to the fact that the unlearned heard the Scripture read in their own tongue in the public assemblies.

These early Baptists decided all questions of doctrine by an appeal to their Sacred Books; being very jealous of forged books, which abounded very early. Tertullian tells us where some of the inspired autographs could be found at that time. ‘The very images,’ he says, ‘of their voice and person are now recited and exhibited. Do you live in Achaia? There is Corinth. Are you not far from Macedonia? You have Philippi and Thessalonica. Are you nigh unto Asia? There is Ephesus. Or, if you border upon Italy, there is Rome.’ And as late as the fourth century, Peter of Alexandria said that the Gospel of John, written with his own hand, was still preserved and venerated in the Church at Ephesus.
("A History of the Baptists," Thomas Armitage)

file:///c:/FundamentalBaptistLibrary2000/WWW/qindex.htm

 

[Doubting Thomas]

Originally posted by D28guy:


I love you guys, I really do. But sometimes Catholic apologists just crack me up.
.......
"Say ANYTHING, do ANYTHING, divert, attempt to confuse, slander, change the subject, attack the person, etc etc etc."

"Say ANYTHING....divert...slander...change the subject, attack the person"...
Oh, you mean like what you are doing by calling folks like Chemnitz and myself "Catholic apologists" for pointing out that the so-called documentation of the work you posted mischaracterizes the primary sources it purports to cite? You've yet to answer Chemnitz' point about Ambrose except to laugh at him and call him names. And I've read Eusebius (who appears in those same footnotes) myself, so I can safely say there's no baptist successionism to be found in his Ecclesiastical History.

But laugh away, for apparently that's all you got

 

[mcneely]

Originally posted by D28guy:
Doubting Thomas,

</font><blockquote>quote:</font><hr />"Wow...just as "scholory"(sic)...and "trustworthy" as the one you posted??"

Absolutly.

"You mean the kind with extensive footnotes but which mischaracterize the primary sources?"

I love you guys, I really do. But sometimes Catholic apologists just crack me up. Not just you guys, but the ones on EWTN and who write Catholic propaganda books.

I mean, this organisation just has no shame at all. They dont know when to quit. It becomes comical. They are the masters.

"Say ANYTHING, do ANYTHING, divert, attempt to confuse, slander, change the subject, attack the person, etc etc etc."

I've seen it all. On boards like this and others. In person talking with Catholics. On EWTN.

Its just amazing, but so very sad when one considers what is at stake.

Mike </font>[/QUOTE]Mike, you obviously didn't understand what was requested of you. You and the others are trying to make this about theological arguments between Catholics and evangelicals, when all that is called on is some accurate evidence about the existence of these so-called "Bible-believing, Evangelical" groups during a period where, understood historically, they didn't exist. So instead of trying to offend people with this silly taunting. Time to show your cards. If not, let someone else do it. And if all that can be produced is this syndicated, Catholic-Conspiracy nonsense found posted by these disgruntled "Pastor/Christian historians", then I think the argument has been settled.

---Justin

 

[nate]

Originally posted by D28guy:

And I guess that those with "objective glasses" are the ones who buy...blindly...the utter nonsense and dishonest lies that Romes "spin meisters" so cunningly decieve its victims with?

The most objective people on the face of this planet are people who turn to the scriptures alone as their truth standard, use that truth standard as a guide to judge all *supposed* christian groups and teachings, and condemn that which contradicts in foundational areas...as Rome does in abundance.

I don't think anyone is claiming that Rome is spotless or without blemish but the fact remains that they are not the "harlot" church many make her out to be.

 

[Kamoroso]

I don't think anyone is claiming that Rome is spotless or without blemish but the fact remains that they are not the "harlot" church many make her out to be.

3-BABYLON


Revelation 14 8And there followed another angel, saying, Babylon is fallen, is fallen, that great city, because she made all nations drink of the wine of the wrath of her fornication.

In order to understand this angel’s message, we will have to first know who Babylon is, and what the wine of her fornication is, that all nations are made to drink. We know that the angel cannot be referring to the literal nation of Babylon, it ceased to exist long before the above message was given to the apostle John. So we must find out who, or what, this Babylon represents. Let us examine the scriptures for more details.

Revelation 16 17And the seventh angel poured out his vial into the air; and there came a great voice out of the temple of heaven, from the throne, saying, It is done. 18And there were voices, and thunders, and lightnings; and there was a great earthquake, such as was not since men were upon the earth, so mighty an earthquake, and so great. 19And the great city was divided into three parts, and the cities of the nations fell: and great Babylon came in remembrance before God, to give unto her the cup of the wine of the fierceness of his wrath. ]/b]20And every island fled away, and the mountains were not found. 21And there fell upon men a great hail out of heaven, every stone about the weight of a talent: and men blasphemed God because of the plague of the hail; for the plague thereof was exceeding great.
Revelation 17
1And there came one of the seven angels which had the seven vials, and talked with me, saying unto me, Come hither; I will show unto thee the judgment of the great whore that sitteth upon many waters: 2With whom the kings of the earth have committed fornication, and the inhabitants of the earth have been made drunk with the wine of her fornication. 3So he carried me away in the spirit into the wilderness: and I saw a woman sit upon a scarlet coloured beast, full of names of blasphemy, having seven heads and ten horns. 4And the woman was arrayed in purple and scarlet colour, and decked with gold and precious stones and pearls, having a golden cup in her hand full of abominations and filthiness of her fornication: 5And upon her forehead was a name written, MYSTERY, BABYLON THE GREAT, THE MOTHER OF HARLOTS AND ABOMINATIONS OF THE EARTH. 6And I saw the woman drunken with the blood of the saints, and with the blood of the martyrs of Jesus: and when I saw her, I wondered with great admiration.

In chapter sixteen, we see that Babylon is around in the end to receive the judgment of God. Her judgment is connected with the judgment of the world. In verse nineteen, we see that she is that great city, which is connected to the cities of the nations, which will all fall in the judgment of great Babylon. Babylon then, is the great city, and leader of a planet in rebellion against God, and His people.

Chapter seventeen reveals more traits with which to identify Babylon. She is the Mother of Harlots and abominations of the earth. Being a mother, she must have children. The kings of the earth commit fornication with her. She has also made the inhabitance of the earth drunk with the wine of her fornication. Her cup, which no doubt contains the wine, is full of abominations and filthiness of her fornication. Lastly, she herself is drunk with the blood of the saints, and the martyrs of Jesus. That is to say, she is responsible for the persecution, and murder of God’s people on earth.

That’s a lot of identifying marks. Let’s take a look at some of them. We’ll start with the fact that Babylon is the Mother of Harlots. What does a harlot represent in the scriptures?

Jer 3:8-9 8 And I saw, when for all the causes whereby backsliding Israel committed adultery I had put her away, and given her a bill of divorce; yet her treacherous sister Judah feared not, but went and played the harlot also.
9 And it came to pass through the lightness of her whoredom, that she defiled the land, and committed adultery with stones and with stocks.

Ezek 16:14-15 14 And thy renown went forth among the heathen for thy beauty: for it was perfect through my comeliness, which I had put upon thee, saith the Lord GOD.
15 But thou didst trust in thine own beauty, and playedst the harlot because of thy renown, and pouredst out thy fornications on every one that passed by; his it was.

Ezek 16:28-29 28 Thou hast played the whore also with the Assyrians, because thou wast unsatiable; yea, thou hast played the harlot with them, and yet couldest not be satisfied.
29 Thou hast moreover multiplied thy fornication in the land of Canaan unto Chaldea; and yet thou wast not satisfied herewith.

Hosea 4:15 15 Though thou, Israel, play the harlot, yet let not Judah offend; and come not ye unto Gilgal, neither go ye up to Bethaven, nor swear, The LORD liveth.

The nation of Israel was referred to as a harlot by God, when she had illicit relationships with the kings, or nations around her, and their gods. That is to say, when she trusted in, and relied upon the power of, other nations, and their gods, over the true God of heaven and earth. The same no doubt will hold true for those who now claim to be God’s people, but have illicit relationships with the nations of this earth, and their gods. That is to say, with those who claim to be Christians, but are involved in the same.

The writer contends that the great city we are discussing is none other than Rome, and the harlot, is none other than the Church of Rome. For she is the original form of apostate Christianity, that first abandoned the power of the Holy Spirit, in favor of the power of the state. She leaned on the latter, because she had already lost the former. Through compromise, and mixing pagan practices with the true religion, which is an abomination to God, she lost the power of the Holy Spirit, and thus strove for the power of the state.

It is not such a simple thing as to say that the Church of Rome was that apostate Christian institution which first sought the power of the state, over the power of the Holy Spirit. Moreover, she is the result of apostate Christianity seeking the power of the state, because she had lost the power of the Holy Spirit. Among the various apostate Christian entities of the day, she is the one who gained the favor of the state, to the furtherance of her ends. The struggle between these various groups of apostate Christians, requires to much detail to address. The observation of which, would convince any true Christian, of their fallen state. The purpose of the following is to establish the fact of her relations, and empowerment, with, and by the kings of this earth.

In any case, Constantine, the first supposed Christian emperor of the Roman empire, was the first to give apostate Christianity the power of the state. He did thus, by enacting the first Sunday law. Observe the following.

The text of Constantine's Sunday Law of 321 A.D. is :
"One the venerable day of the Sun let the magistrates and people residing in cities rest, and let all workshops be closed. In the country however persons engaged in agriculture may freely and lawfully continue their pursuits because it often happens that another day is not suitable for gain-sowing or vine planting; lest by neglecting the proper moment for such operations the bounty of heaven should be lost. (Given the 7th day of March, Crispus and Constantine being consuls each of them the second time." Codex Justinianus, lib. 3, tit. 12, 3; translated in History of the Christian Church, Philip Schaff, D.D., (7-vol.ed.) Vol. III, p.380. New York, 1884

Dr. A.Chr. Bang says regarding this Law :
"This Sunday law constituted no real favoratism to Christianity..... It is evident from all his statuatory provisions that the Emperor during the time 313-323 with full consciousness has sought the realisation of his religeous aim: the amalgamation of heathenism and Christianity." Kirken og Romerstaten (The Church and the Roman State) p.256. Christiania, 1879

In A.D. 321, to please the bishops of the Catholic Church, he issued an edict commanding judges, townspeople, and mechanics to rest on Sunday.
Yet in this also his paganism was still manifest, as the edict required rest on
"the venerable day of the sun," and "enjoined the observance, or rather
forbade the public desecration, of Sunday, not under the name of Sabbatum, or Dies Domini, but under its old astrological and heathen title,
Dies Solis , familiar to all his subjects, so that the law was as applicable to the worshipers of Hercules, Apollo, and Mithras, as to the Christians." (History of the Christian Church, Vol. 3, sec. 75, par. 5.-Schaff.) ( The Great Empires of Prophecy by Alonzo Jones page 391 )

In the above quotes, we see some of the identifying marks of Babylon being fulfilled. The establishment of the first Sunday law came about through the illicit relationship of those who claimed to be God’s people, with the kings of the earth, and the false religious practices of the pagan religions of the nations of these kings. In Constantine, we find the first Emperor of Rome to begin committing fornication with the Mother of Harlots, that is Babylon. Let’s look at some more from A.T. Jones.

Then came Constantine, the best imperial representative of the new paganism, and the most devout worshiper of the sun as the supreme and universal deity, with the avowed purpose, as expressed in his own words, "First to bring the diverse judgments formed by all nations respecting the Deity to a condition, as it were, of settled uniformity." In Constantine the new paganism met its ideal, and the New Platonism - the apostate, paganized, sun-worshiping form of Christianity - met its long-wished-for instrument. In him the two streams met. In him the aspiration of Elagabalus, the hope of Ammonius Saccas and Clement, of Plotinus and Origen, and the ambition of the perverse-minded, self-exalted bishops, were all realized and accomplished - a new, imperial, and universal religion was created.
Therefore, "the reign of Constantine the Great forms one of the epochs in the history of the world. It is the era of the dissolution of the Roman Empire; the commencement, or rather consolidation, of a kind of Eastern despotism, with a new capital, a new patriciate, a new constitution, a new financial system, a new, though as yet imperfect, jurisprudence, and, finally, a new religion." ( Milman - History of Christianity, book 3, chap. 1, par. 1 )

The epoch thus formed was the epoch of the papacy; and the new religion thus created was the PAPAL RELIGION. ( The Great Empires of Prophecy by Alonzo Jones page 361 )

By instituting the first Sunday laws, Constantine gave the Church of Rome the power of the state. For this law commanded all, those in, and out of the faith, to observe this apostate Christian institution. This was the beginning of the realization of the Church of Rome’s purpose in having illicit relationships with the kings of the earth. By these relations, she hoped to establish herself in a position of power above all others. Though she claims to have been established by Christ, through the first Pope, Peter, she was really established through the power of the kings of this earth. It was these with whom she committed spiritual adultery, and fornication. Let’s look at some more historical facts confirming these truths found in the book The Two Republics, by A. T. Jones.

“The Catholic Church demanded assistance in her ambitious aim to make her power and authority absolute over all; and for Constantine’s purposes it was essential that the church should be a unit. These two considerations combined to produce results both immediate and remote, that proved a curse to the time then present and to ages to follow. The immediate result was that Constantine had no sooner compassed the destruction of Licinius in A.D. 323, than he issued an edict against the Novatians, Valentinians, Marcionites, Paulians, Cataphrygians, and “all who devised and supported heresies by means of private assemblies,” denouncing them and their heresies, and commanding them all to enter the Catholic Church. The edict runs as follows: —

“Victor Constantinus Maximus Augustus, to the heretics: Understand now, by this present statute, ye Novatians, Valentinians, Marcionites, Paulians, ye who are called Cataphrygians, and all ye who devise and support heresies by means of your private assemblies, with what a tissue of falsehood and vanity, with what destructive and venomous errors, your doctrines are inseparably interwoven; so that through you the healthy soul is stricken with disease, and the living becomes the prey of everlasting death. Ye haters and enemies of truth and life, in league with destruction: All your counsels are opposed to the truth, but familiar with deeds of baseness; fit subjects for the fabulous follies of the stage: and by these ye frame falsehoods, oppress the innocent, and withhold the light from them that believe. Ever trespassing under the mask of godliness, ye fill all things with defilement: ye pierce the pure and guileless conscience with deadly wounds, while ye withdraw, one may almost say, the very light of day from the eyes of men. But why should I particularize, when to speak of your criminality as it deserves, demands more time and leisure than I can give? For so long and unmeasured is the catalogue of your offenses, so hateful and altogether atrocious are they, that a single day would not suffice to recount them all. And indeed it is well to turn one’s ears and eyes from such a subject, lest by a description of each particular evil, the pure sincerity and freshness of one’s own faith be impaired. Why then do I still bear with such abounding evil; especially since this protracted clemency is the cause that some who were sound are become tainted with this pestilent disease? Why not at once strike, as it were, at the root of so great a mischief by a public manifestation of displeasure? “Forasmuch, then, as it is no longer possible to bear with your pernicious errors, we give warning by this present statute that none of you henceforth presume to assemble yourselves together. We have directed, accordingly, that you be deprived of all the houses in which you are accustomed to hold your assemblies: and our care in this respect extends so far as to forbid the holding of your superstitious and senseless meetings, not in public merely, but in any private house or place whatsoever. Let those of you, therefore, who are desirous of embracing the true and pure religion, take the far better course of entering the Catholic Church, and uniting with it in holy fellowship, whereby you will be enabled to arrive at the knowledge of the truth. In any case, the delusions of your perverted understandings must entirely cease to mingle with and mar the felicity of our present times; I mean the impious and wretched doublemindedness of heretics and schismatics. For it is an object worthy of that prosperity which we enjoy through the favor of God, to endeavor to bring back those who in time past were living in the hope of future blessing, from all irregularity and error, to the right path, from darkness to light, from vanity to truth, from death to salvation. And in order that this remedy may be applied with effectual power, we have commanded (as before said), that you be positively deprived of every gathering point for your superstitious meetings; I mean all the houses of prayer (if such be worthy of the name) which belong to heretics, and that these be made over without delay to the Catholic Church; that any other places be confiscated to the public service, and no facility whatever be left for any future gathering; in order that from this day forward none of your unlawful assemblies may presume to appear in any public or private place. Let this edict be made public.” ( Eusebius’s- “Life of Constantine,” book 3, chaps. 64, 65. )


Some of the penal regulations of this edict “were copied from the edicts of
Diocletian; and this method of conversion was applauded by the same bishops who had felt the hand of oppression, and had pleaded for the rights of humanity.” ( Gibbon- “Decline and Fall,” chap. 21, par. 1. )


As is obvious from the above edict, the establishment of the Church of Rome had nothing to do with the gospel of our Lord and Savior Jesus Christ. To the contrary, she was established through the power of the state, not the power of the Holy Spirit. The emperor that established her power did so for purely political reasons, the establishment of his authority above all civil, or religious entities of the day.

As the emperor of Rome, Constantine was already the head of all the pagan religions of that empire, and was himself a devout worshipper of the sun. His supposed conversion to Christianity was nothing more than a political ploy to be the head of this new religion also. Thus his purpose was, as already stated, "First to bring the diverse judgments formed by all nations respecting the Deity to a condition, as it were, of settled uniformity." This settled uniformity was to be under his authority, and complete control. Therefore, the establishment of the Church of Rome was brought about by the selfish motives of a pagan emperor who would embrace Christianity as a means of obtaining his goal. Not to mention the selfish motives, and ambitions of apostate Christians who were themselves seeking the power, and prestige of this world.

Apostate Christianity, having entered the stage of the politics of this world, has never ceased to be entangled in the same. She is ever entrenched in the political strife, struggles for supremacy, and unquenchable thirst for power of the same. The Church of Rome is the Mother of all supposed Christian institutions which have become more concerned with the politics of this world, and its struggles for power, than the fulfilling of the gospel commission. “And this gospel of the kingdom shall be preached in all the world for a witness unto all nations; and then shall the end come.” ( Matt. 24:14 )

The following are more historical quotes, and facts regarding the establishment, or re-establishment of the Church of Rome’s authority. As a political entity of this world, her authority, and influence have continually, and are continually being challenged by others of the same. The history of her political struggles, and alliances with the kings of this earth, are sufficient proof that she is the Mother Of Harlots, who commits fornication with the kings of the earth. Thus, this identifying mark is fulfilled in her history. Of the many books that could be studied, for a more detailed history of her politics, the following are recommended by the writer. The Great Empires of Prophecy, and The Two Republics, both written by Alonzo Jones.


Gratian was but the tool of the bishops. Ambrose was at that time bishop of Milan, and never was episcopal ambition more arrogantly asserted than in that insolent prelate. Soon the mind of the bishop asserted the supremacy over that of the boy emperor, and Ambrose “wielded at his will the weak and irresolute Gratian.” ( Milman- “History of Christianity,” book 3, chap. 8, par. 28. )

But above all things else that Gratian did, that which redounded most to the glory of the Catholic Church was his choice of Theodosius as associate emperor. Valens was killed in a battle with the Goths, A.D. 378. A stronger hand than that of a youth of nineteen was required to hold the reins of government in the East. In the establishment of the Catholic Church, the place of Theodosius is second only to that of Constantine. About the beginning of the year 380 he was baptized by the Catholic bishop of Thessalonica, and immediately afterward he issued the following edict: —

“It is our pleasure that the nations which are governed by our clemency and moderation, should steadfastly adhere to the religion which was taught by St. Peter to the Romans, which faithful tradition has preserved, and which is now professed by the pontiff Damasus, and by Peter, bishop of Alexandria, a man of apostolic holiness. According to the discipline of the apostles, and the doctrine of the gospel, let us believe the sole deity of the Father, the Son, and the Holy Ghost: under an equal majesty, and a pious Trinity. We authorize the followers of this doctrine to assume the title of Catholic Christians; and as we judge that all others are extravagant madmen, we brand them with the infamous name of “heretics,” and declare that their conventicles shall no longer usurp the respectable appellation of churches. Besides the condemnation of divine justice, they must expect to suffer the severe penalties which our authority, guided by heavenly wisdom, shall think proper to inflict upon them.” ( Gibbon’s “Decline and Fall,” chap. 27, par. 6. )


This law was issued in the names of the three emperors, Gratian, Valentinian II, and Theodosius. “Thus the religion of the whole Roman world was enacted by two feeble boys and a rude Spanish soldier.” ( Milman- “History of Christianity,” book 3, chap. 9, par. 1. )

In the supremacy of the papacy, Justinian holds the same place as does Constantine and Theodosius in the establishment of the Catholic Church. “Among the titles of greatness, the name ‘Pious’ was most pleasing to his ears; to promote the temporal and spiritual interests of the church was the serious business of his life; and the duty of father of his country was often sacrificed to that of defender of the faith.” ( Gibbon - “Decline and Fall,” chap. xlvii, par. 23. )

“The emperor Justinian unites in himself the most opposite vices, — insatiable rapacity and lavish prodigality, intense pride and contemptible weakness, unmeasured ambition and dastardly cowardice.... In the Christian emperor, seem to meet the crimes of those who won or secured their empire by assassination of all whom they feared, the passion for public diversions without the accomplishments of Nero or the brute strength of Commodus, the dotage of Claudius.” ( Milman - “History of Latin Christianity,” book 3, chap. 4, par. 2. )


In the year 532, Justinian issued an edict declaring his intention “to unite all
men in one faith.” Whether they were Jews, Gentiles, or Christians, all who did not within three months profess and embrace the Catholic faith, were by the edict “declared infamous, and as such excluded from allemployments both civil and military; rendered incapable of leaving anything by will; and all their estates confiscated, whether real or personal.” As a result of this cruel edict, “Great numbers were driven from their habitations with their wives and children, stripped and naked. Others betook themselves to flight, carrying with them what they could conceal, for their support and maintenance; but they were plundered of what little they had, and many of them inhumanly massacred.” ( Bower - “History of the Popes,” Boniface 2,
par. 2. )


THE CODE OF OUR LORD
THE MOST SACRED EMPEROR JUSTINIAN.
SECOND EDITION.

BOOK 1.


TITLE 1.
CONCERNING THE MOST EXALTED TRINITY AND THE
CATHOLIC FAITH AND PROVIDING THAT NNE
SHALL DARE TO PUBLICLY OPPOSE THEM.

   1. The Emperors Gratian, Valentinian, and Theodosius to the people of the City of Constantinople.
   We desire that all peoples subject to Our benign Empire shall live under the same religion that the Divine Peter, the Apostle, gave to the Romans, and which the said religion declares was introduced by himself, and which it is well known that the Pontiff Damascus, and Peter, Bishop of Alexandria, a man of apostolic sanctity, embraced; that is to say, in accordance with the rules of apostolic discipline and the evangelical doctrine, we should believe that the Father, Son, and Holy Spirit constitute a single Deity, endowed with equal majesty, and united in the Holy Trinity.

   (1) We order all those who follow this law to assume the name of Catholic Christians, and considering others as demented and insane, We order that they shall bear the infamy of heresy; and when the Divine vengeance which they merit has been appeased, they shall afterwards be punished in accordance with Our resentment, which we have acquired from the judgment of Heaven.

    Dated at Thessalonica, on the third of the Kalends of March, during the Consulate of Gratian, Consul for the fifth time, and Theodosius.

   2. The Same Emperors to Eutropius, Praetorian Prefect.
   Let no place be afforded to heretics for the conduct of their ceremonies, and let no occasion be offered for them to display the insanity of their obstinate minds. Let all persons know that if any privilege has been fraudulently obtained by means of any rescript whatsoever, by persons of this kind, it will not be valid. Let all bodies of heretics be prevented from holding unlawful assemblies, and let the name of the only and the greatest God be celebrated everywhere, and let the observance of the Nicene Creed, recently transmitted to Our ancestors, and firmly established by the testimony and practice of Divine Religion, always remain secure.

   (1) Moreover, he who is an adherent of the Nicene Faith, and a true believer in the Catholic religion, should be understood to be one [pg. 10] who believes that Almighty God and Christ, the son of God, are one person, God of God, Light of Light; and let no one, by rejection, dishonor the Holy Spirit, whom we expect, and have received from the Supreme Parent of all things, in whom the sentiment of a pure and undefiled faith flourishes, as well as the belief in the undivided substance of a Holy Trinity, which true believers indicate by the Greek word These things, indeed do not require further proof, and should be respected.

   (2) Let those who do not accept those doctrines cease to apply the name of true religion to their fraudulent belief; and let them be branded with their open crimes, and, having been removed from the threshhold of all churches, be utterly excluded from them, as We forbid all heretics to hold unlawful assemblies within cities. If, however, any seditious outbreak should be attempted, We order them to be driven outside the the walls of the City, with relentless violence, and We direct that all Catholic Churches, throughout the entire world, shall be placed under the control of the orthodox bishops who have embraced the Nicene Creed.
   Given at Constantinople, on the fourth of the ides of January, under the Consulate of Flavius Eucharius and Flavius Syagrius.

    3. The Emperor Martian to Palladius, Praetorian Prefect.
   No one, whether he belongs to the clergy, the army, or to any other condition of men, shall, with a view to causing a tumult and giving occasion to treachery, attempt to discuss the Christian religion publicly in the presence of an assembled and listening crowd; for he commits an injury against the most reverend Synod who publicly contradicts what has once been decided and properly established; as those matters relative to the Christian faith have been settled by the priests who met at Chalcedony by Our order, and are known to be in conformity with the apostolic explanations and conclusions of the three hundred and eight Holy Fathers assembled in Nicea, and the hundred and fifty who met in this Imperial City; for the violators of this law shall not go unpunished, because they not only oppose the true faith, but they also profane its venerated mysteries by engaging in contests of this kind with Jews and Pagans. Therefore, if any person who has ventured to publicly discuss religious matters is a member of the clergy, he shall be removed from his order; if he is a member of the army, he shall be degraded; and any others who are guilty of this offence, who are freemen, shall be banished from this most Sacred City, and shall be subjected to the punishment prescribed by law according to the power of the court; and if they are slaves, they shall undergo severest penalty.
   Given at Constantinople, on the eighth of the Ides of February, under the consulship of Patricius.

   4. John, Bishop of the City of Rome, to his most Illustrious and Merciful Son Justinian.
   Among the conspicuous reasons for praising your wisdom and gentleness, Most Christian of Emperors, and one which radiates light [pg. 11]as a star, is the fact that through love of the Faith, and actuated by zeal for charity, you, learned in ecclesiastical discipline, have preserved reverence for the See of Rome, and have subjected all things to its authority, and have given it unity. The following precept was communicated to its founder, that is to say, the first of the Apostles, by the mouth of the Lord, namely: "Feed my lambs."
   This See is indeed the head of all churches, as the rules of the Fathers and the decrees of the Emperors assert, and the words of your most reverend piety testify. It is therefore claimed that what the Scriptures state, namely, "By Me Kings reign, and the Powers dispense justice;" will be accomplished in you. For there is nothing which shines with a more brilliant lustre than genuine faith when displayed by a prince, since there is nothing which prevents destruction as true religion does, for as both of them have reference to the Author of Life and Light, they disperse darkness and prevent apostasy. Wherefore, Most Glorious of Princes, the Divine Power is implored by the prayers of all to preserve your piety in this ardor for the Faith, in this devotion of your mind, and in this zeal for true religion, without failure, during your entire existence. For we believe that this is for the benefit of the Holy Churches, as it was written, "The king rules with his lips," and again, "The heart of the King is in the hand of God, and it will incline to whatever side God wishes"; that is to say, that He may confirm your empire, and maintain your kingdoms for the peace of the Church and the unity of religion; guard their authority, and preserve him in that sublime tranquillity which is so grateful to him; and no small change is granted by the Divine Power through whose agency a divided church is not afflicted by any griefs or subject to any reproaches. For it is written, "A just king, who is upon his throne, has no reason to apprehend any misfortune."
   We have received with all due respect the evidences of your serenity, through Hypatius and Demetrius, most holy men, my brothers and fellow-bishops, from whose statements we have learned that you have promulgated an Edict addressed to your faithful people, and dictated by your love of the Faith, for the purpose of overthrowing the designs of heretics, which is in accordance with the evangelical tenets, and which we have confirmed by our authority with the consent of our brethren and fellow bishops, for the reason that it is in conformity with the apostolic doctrine.


   The following is the text of the letter of the Emperor Justinian, Victorious, Pious, Happy, Renowned, Triumphant, always Augustus, to John, Patriarch, and most Holy Archbishop of the fair City of Rome:
   With honor to the Apostolic See, and to your Holiness, which is, and always has been remembered in Our prayers, both now and formerly, and honoring your happiness, as is proper in the case of one who is considered as a father, We hasten to bring to the knowledge of Your Holiness everything relating to the condition of the Church, as We have always had the greatest desire to preserve the unity of your Apostolic See, and the condition of the Holy Churches of God, as they [pg. 12] exist at the present time, that they may remain without disturbance or opposition. Therefore, We have exerted Ourselves to unite all the priests of the East and subject them to the See of Your Holiness, and hence the questions which have at present arisen, although they are manifest and free from doubt, and according to the doctrines of your Apostolic See, are constantly firmly observed and preached by all priests, We have still considered it necessary that they should be brought to the attention of Your Holiness. For we do not suffer anything which has reference to the state of the Church, even though what causes difficulty may be clear and free from doubt, to be discussed without being brought to the notice of Your Holiness, because you are the head of all the Holy Churches, for We shall exert Ourselves in every way (as has already been stated), to increase the honor and authority of your See.


One Hundred and Thirty-First New Constitution.
The Emperor Justinian to Peter, Most Glorious Imperial Praetorian Prefect.
PREFACE.
   We enact the present law with reference to ecclesiastical rules and privileges and other subjects in which holy churches and religious establishments are intrusted.
Chapter I.

   Concerning Four Holy Councils.

   Therefore We order that the sacred, ecclesiastical rules which were adopted and confirmed by the four Holy Councils, that is to say, that of the three hundred and eighteen bishops held at Nicea, that of the one hundred and fifty bishops held at Constantinople, the first one of Ephesus, where Nestorius was condemned, and the one assembled at Chalcedon, where Eutyches and Nestorius were anathematized, shall be considered as laws. We accept the dogmas of these four Councils as sacred writings, and observe their rules as legally effective.

Chapter II.

   Concerning The Precedence of Partriarchs.

   Hence, in accordance with the provisions of these Councils, We order that the Most Holy Pope of ancient Rome shall hold the first rank of all the Pontiffs, but the Most Blessed Archbishop of Constantinople, or New Rome, shall occupy the second place after the Holy Apostolic See of ancient Rome, which shall take precedence over all other sees.

Source: Corpus Juris Civilis (The Civil Law, the Code of Justinian), by S.P. Scott, A.M., published by the Central Trust Company, Cincinnati, copyright 1932, Volume 12 [of 17], pages 9-12, 125.

Bye for now. Y. b. in C. Keith

 

[D28guy]

Well, there seems to be a lot of "Catholic Church is the Harlot in revelation" stuff showing up on this and other threads.

I'm not an expert on end time events like some are, but its part of Gods truth standard and written wisdom so its worth dwelling upon.

I personally think there is something to the vew that the great harlot is the false christian based in Rome. There sure are some pretty clear "signs" going on here...

Revelation 17:1-9...

Then one of the seven angels who had the seven bowls came and talked with me, saying to me,* "Come, I will show you the judgment of the great harlot who sits on many waters,..."

"Many waters" of course referes to the fact that the organisation in question is not in any sense "regional". It is world wide in its scope and influence.

...with whom the kings of the earth committed fornication, and the inhabitants of the earth were made drunk with the wine of her fornication.

It goes without saying that Rome has always been, and still is, interested in political influence as "she" seeks the blessings of political leaders world wide, and seeks to use "her" connections for "her" gain. It started when Constantine and its never ended. We've all seen the photos, and read the information, of "her" even giving her blessing to Hitler.

So he carried me away in the Spirit into the wilderness. And I saw a woman sitting on a scarlet beast which was full of names of blasphemy, having seven heads and ten horns.


The woman was arrayed in purple and scarlet,..."

Purple and scarlet are very prominant in the church of Rome, and I've heard it said that they are...if not literally...the "unofficial" colors of the church.

...and adorned with gold and precious stones and pearls, having in her hand a golden cup full of abominations and the filthiness of her fornication.

And of course all one has to do is visit the Vatican and see the incredible wealth that is there with all the excess of golden items and buildings, etc. Not just in Rome of course but world wide. An incredible amount of wealth that "she" sits upon and flaunts before the world. People travel land and sea century after century to gawk at the excess of wealth on display.

And on her forehead a name was written: MYSTERY, BABYLON THE GREAT, THE MOTHER OF HARLOTS AND OF THE ABOMINATIONS OF THE EARTH.

I saw the woman, drunk with the blood of the saints and with the blood of the martyrs of Jesus. And when I saw her, I marveled with great amazement.

Sadly, it goes without saying that Rome is the undisputed world wide leader regarding the amount of precious children of God whom she has tortured and murdered. The crusades. The inquisitians. The stake burning. The torture chambers.

"But the angel said to me, "Why did you marvel? I will tell you the mystery of the woman and of the beast that carries her, which has the seven heads and the ten horns.

The beast that you saw was, and is not, and will ascend out of the bottomless pit and go to perdition. And those who dwell on the earth will marvel, whose names are not written in the Book of Life from the foundation of the world, when they see the beast that was, and is not, and yet is.

Here is the mind which has wisdom: The seven heads are seven mountains on which the woman sits.

Rome...of course...is known as the "city on seven hills".

Andd to that the fact that Rome does indeed proclaim a false gospel of works, and its just not a pretty picture at all.

Of course this is not to say that *every* Catholic is without question lost. There are *some* born again people in the organisation, although...all things considered...surely not many. Particularly not in the Hierarchy..

Sadly,

Mike

 

[D28guy]

McNeely,

"Mike, you obviously didn't understand what was requested of you."

I am precisly aware of what has been going on. Its a consistant practice that has been going on for the over 20 years that I have been born again and have been routinely sharing with Catholics.

When something *troublesome* that the Catholic doesnt like, comes up, they...

Divert the discussion away from the "problem".

Question the integrity of the source.

Slander the source.

Attempt getting the one sharing to go off on meaningless little "rabbit trails" (more diversion)

When all else fails...

Insult the one sharing the information.

Believe me...I have been doing this for a long time. I know exactly what is going on.

I have ACTUALLY SEEN members of the Hierarchy TEACHING THESE VERY TACTICS to Catholics on EWTN!

Believe me...I know.

Mike

 

[Chemnitz]

Mike, I am begining to believe the only thing you know is ad hominin attacks. You are making yourself look stupid by the fact that you have never actually responded to the inconsistancy that I pointed out. You have only complained about diversionary tactics. The only person on this thread who has engaged in such is you Mike. DT and I have both addressed your evidence the least you could have done is responded in kind. But no you wanted to play mudslinger.
I don't think I will need to continue here because anybody who reads the whole thread will see who was most willing deal with the issue honestly.

 

[Eliyahu]

Mike has been telling the Truth, which I am glad about.

The Great Harlot is gearing up to strike the final blow against True Believers.
There are pleny of evidences which prove this Harlot is sitting on the Seven Hills in Rome as she did these things torturing and killing the Believers:

http://www.cuttingedge.org/news/n1676.cfm
http://www.compusmart.ab.ca/rprince/murders.htm
http://www.askwhy.co.uk/christianity/0811Inquisition.html
http://www.globalpolicy.org/intljustice/tribunals/2001/0716rwnd.htm

http://www.lietuvos.net/istorija/katalikai/


All the heresies that she keeps proves that she is the Great Harlot!

 

[Eliyahu]

This is not very strange to such Harlot.

http://www.nobeliefs.com/nazis.htm

 

[riverm]

Originally posted by D28guy:
Well, there seems to be a lot of "Catholic Church is the Harlot in revelation" stuff showing up on this and other threads.

I'm not an expert on end time events like some are, but its part of Gods truth standard and written wisdom so its worth dwelling upon.

I personally think there is something to the vew that the great harlot is the false christian based in Rome. There sure are some pretty clear "signs" going on here...

Regurgitating Hunt again D28guy? When are you going to learn to think for yourself and actually study and look at all views and then come to an informative decision? I myself was guilty for a long time, but I guess you can say I was once blind, but now see.

Hunt speaks of committing Fornication form Revelation and relates such to the Catholic Church, but Hunt admits that the prophets often refer to Jerusalem as a spiritual whore, suggesting that the Whore might be apostate Jerusalem. Ancient pagan Rome also fits this description, since through the cult of emperor worship it also committed spiritual fornication with the kings of the earth.

Hunt clearly confuses the Vatican City with the city of Rome. See, St. John was writing to Christians who were being persecuted by pagan Rome…

arrayed in purple and scarlet

Again Hunt leads the unsuspecting reader down a road of lies and misinformation. Purple and Red are NOT the dominate colors of the Church; WHITE is. All priests wear white, including bishops and cardinals when saying Mass. What’s funny is that Hunt ignores the obvious symbolic meanings of the colors and literalizes the colors of certain Catholic clergy.

Hunt ignores the liturgical meaning of purple and red, purple meaning “repentance” and red honors the “blood” of Christ. This has been the liturgical colors since ancient Israel. See Lev. 14:4,6, 49-52; Num. 19:6; Ex. 28:4-8, 15, 33, 39:1-8,24,29.

drunk with the blood of the saints

Hunt misleads the readers in that St. John was writing to Christians in his time period that was experiencing persecuting from pagan Rome and apostate Jerusalem. Never once did any reader think of an undreamed of Christian Rome that was centuries away in the future as this description!

So which Rome is Hunt speaking of, the city of Rome or Vatican City? Vatican City is where the Catholic Church is headquartered, not the City of Rome. Vatican City is built on 1 hill, not 7, Rome is built on 7 hills, also those 7 hills are on the East side of the Tiber River; the Vatican is on the West Side…

Again I ask which Rome is Hunt speaking of, pagan Rome or a Christian Rome The answer is obvious; someone has an agenda and is leading his flock like blind sheep…

Sadly,
-Tommy

 

[Chemnitz]

Mike has been telling the Truth, which I am glad about.

The Great Harlot is gearing up to strike the final blow against True Believers.
There are pleny of evidences which prove this Harlot is sitting on the Seven Hills in Rome as she did these things torturing and killing the Believers:

http://www.cuttingedge.org/news/n1676.cfm
http://www.compusmart.ab.ca/rprince/murders.htm
http://www.askwhy.co.uk/christianity/0811Inquisition.html
http://www.globalpolicy.org/intljustice/tribunals/2001/0716rwnd.htm

http://www.lietuvos.net/istorija/katalikai/


All the heresies that she keeps proves that she is the Great Harlot!

Empty and vain conspiracy theories, you can not make an assertion without proof.

Besides how can you say Mike is telling the truth in the face of the mistakes made by Mr Wylie and his writing concerning Ambrose. The evidence clearly contradicts Mike.

 

[Eliyahu]

Originally posted by Chemnitz:
The only person on this thread who has engaged in such is you Mike. [/QB]

At least, you are wrong ! because I am here in addition to Mike !

 

[Chemnitz]

Oh, so you too are here to engage in diversionary tactics and mudslinging also? Can't say as I am surprised.

A concrete proof of this fact is that Pope Paul VI (1963-1978) restored the Office of the Inquisition, renamed today as the Congregation for the Doctrine of the Faith frome cuttingedge.org

Now where is the proof of this assertion. Well there isn't any but that has never stopped these people.

I and people I know have had personal experience with the Congregation for the Doctrine of Faith and I don't recall any torture or burning at the stake or even being called a heretic by these people.

 

[tragic_pizza]

Originally posted by D28guy:
Well, there seems to be a lot of "Catholic Church is the Harlot in revelation" stuff showing up on this and other threads.

I'm not an expert on end time events like some are, but its part of Gods truth standard and written wisdom so its worth dwelling upon.

I personally think there is something to the vew that the great harlot is the false christian based in Rome. There sure are some pretty clear "signs" going on here...

Revelation 17:1-9...

</font><blockquote>quote:</font><hr />Then one of the seven angels who had the seven bowls came and talked with me, saying to me,* "Come, I will show you the judgment of the great harlot who sits on many waters,..."

"Many waters" of course referes to the fact that the organisation in question is not in any sense "regional". It is world wide in its scope and influence.

...with whom the kings of the earth committed fornication, and the inhabitants of the earth were made drunk with the wine of her fornication.

It goes without saying that Rome has always been, and still is, interested in political influence as "she" seeks the blessings of political leaders world wide, and seeks to use "her" connections for "her" gain. It started when Constantine and its never ended. We've all seen the photos, and read the information, of "her" even giving her blessing to Hitler.

So he carried me away in the Spirit into the wilderness. And I saw a woman sitting on a scarlet beast which was full of names of blasphemy, having seven heads and ten horns.


The woman was arrayed in purple and scarlet,..."

Purple and scarlet are very prominant in the church of Rome, and I've heard it said that they are...if not literally...the "unofficial" colors of the church.

...and adorned with gold and precious stones and pearls, having in her hand a golden cup full of abominations and the filthiness of her fornication.

And of course all one has to do is visit the Vatican and see the incredible wealth that is there with all the excess of golden items and buildings, etc. Not just in Rome of course but world wide. An incredible amount of wealth that "she" sits upon and flaunts before the world. People travel land and sea century after century to gawk at the excess of wealth on display.

And on her forehead a name was written: MYSTERY, BABYLON THE GREAT, THE MOTHER OF HARLOTS AND OF THE ABOMINATIONS OF THE EARTH.

I saw the woman, drunk with the blood of the saints and with the blood of the martyrs of Jesus. And when I saw her, I marveled with great amazement.

Sadly, it goes without saying that Rome is the undisputed world wide leader regarding the amount of precious children of God whom she has tortured and murdered. The crusades. The inquisitians. The stake burning. The torture chambers.

"But the angel said to me, "Why did you marvel? I will tell you the mystery of the woman and of the beast that carries her, which has the seven heads and the ten horns.

The beast that you saw was, and is not, and will ascend out of the bottomless pit and go to perdition. And those who dwell on the earth will marvel, whose names are not written in the Book of Life from the foundation of the world, when they see the beast that was, and is not, and yet is.

Here is the mind which has wisdom: The seven heads are seven mountains on which the woman sits.

Rome...of course...is known as the "city on seven hills".

Andd to that the fact that Rome does indeed proclaim a false gospel of works, and its just not a pretty picture at all.

Of course this is not to say that *every* Catholic is without question lost. There are *some* born again people in the organisation, although...all things considered...surely not many. Particularly not in the Hierarchy..

Sadly,

Mike </font>[/QUOTE]A more likely associaion is that each of these "hints" speaks not of the church in Rome, but of the government in Rome.

"Many waters" would refer to the wide reach of the Empire; encompassing much of the known world at the time of the writing. Political influence (kings and harlotry and whatnot) would be obvious in this context. Purple and scarlet are the colors of kings, and in particular the Roman Emporer. Wine was a big deal to Romans, as was ostentatious wealth.