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Roman Catholicism , cult or not? Part II

BobRyan

Well-Known Member
Mike brings up a good point from Rev 17. And one could take that same piont from Daniel 7 or Rev 12 and 13.

The real question is this - what does the Bible say about the RCC? Simply "ignoring any text that seems to point that direction" might be the "solution" for someone how is married to an institution and blindly defending it at all costs - but at some point Christians have to have a serious interest in what the Bible actually says EVEN if it is not flattering of one's chosen denomination.

In Christ,

Bob
 

tragic_pizza

New Member
Originally posted by BobRyan:
Mike brings up a good point from Rev 17. And one could take that same piont from Daniel 7 or Rev 12 and 13.

The real question is this - what does the Bible say about the RCC? Simply "ignoring any text that seems to point that direction" might be the "solution" for someone how is married to an institution and blindly defending it at all costs - but at some point Christians have to have a serious interest in what the Bible actually says EVEN if it is not flattering of one's chosen denomination.

In Christ,

Bob
Again, unless the text in question does not point to the Catholic Church, but to the Roman government of the era in which the text was written.
 

riverm

New Member
Originally posted by BobRyan:
Mike brings up a good point from Rev 17. And one could take that same piont from Daniel 7 or Rev 12 and 13.

The real question is this - what does the Bible say about the RCC?
Nothing, the Bile says absolutely nothing about the “Roman Catholic Church”. I can’t find anything regarding RCC. Now you may “interpret” certain passages, but that doesn’t make you right.

Revelation written by St. John depicts to the original audience, not the unheard of Christian Rome we know of today, but the pagan Rome of that time period that were notorious persecutors of Christians. Pagan Rome had unholy alliances with kingdoms she governed, unholy because the alliances were built on paganism and the cult of emperor worship.

And the same can be said about Daniel as well; the Babylonians had just conquered the Israelites and were taken into captivity. Daniel was writing to the original audience about the persecutions, not to come, but that were presently living with them.

While reading and studying the Bible, it’s important to know a little background of the events and culture taking place of the time period the book or letter of the Bible was written.
 

D28guy

New Member
Riverm,

"Regurgitating Hunt again D28guy?"
I've never regurgitated Dave Hunt at all. There are so many good ministries of this nature. But that brothers books on Catholicism are just excellant. I'll amit that. Heavily annotated of course. He does a great job with footnotes and references.

"When are you going to learn to think for yourself and actually study and look at all views and then come to an informative decision?"
I do...but interestingly I've been wondering for years now when Catholics will start "thinking for themselves" in order to see the foundational errors of Rome.

"I myself was guilty for a long time, but I guess you can say I was once blind, but now see."
I wouldnt say that, but you obviously do. Its not hard to "see" the truth of Catholicism...just compare it to the truth found in the scriptures.

"Hunt speaks of committing Fornication form Revelation and relates such to the Catholic Church, but Hunt admits that the prophets often refer to Jerusalem as a spiritual whore, suggesting that the Whore might be apostate Jerusalem. Ancient pagan Rome also fits this description, since through the cult of emperor worship it also committed spiritual fornication with the kings of the earth.

Hunt clearly confuses the Vatican City with the city of Rome. See, St. John was writing to Christians who were being persecuted by pagan Rome…"
Rome doesnt even come close to the Catholic Church regarding the things mentioned in these passages.

"arrayed in purple and scarlet

Again Hunt leads the unsuspecting reader down a road of lies and misinformation. Purple and Red are NOT the dominate colors of the Church; WHITE is. All priests wear white, including bishops and cardinals when saying Mass. What’s funny is that Hunt ignores the obvious symbolic meanings of the colors and literalizes the colors of certain Catholic clergy.

Hunt ignores the liturgical meaning of purple and red, purple meaning “repentance” and red honors the “blood” of Christ. This has been the liturgical colors since ancient Israel. See Lev. 14:4,6, 49-52; Num. 19:6; Ex. 28:4-8, 15, 33, 39:1-8,24,29.
Of course you believe that.

"drunk with the blood of the saints

Hunt misleads the readers in that St. John was writing to Christians in his time period that was experiencing persecuting from pagan Rome and apostate Jerusalem. Never once did any reader think of an undreamed of Christian Rome that was centuries away in the future as this description!
The scriptures of God apply to ALL periods, and ALL centuries, riverm. Not just the 1st century. The scriptures are filled with prophetic wisdom, as we find here.

"So which Rome is Hunt speaking of, the city of Rome or Vatican City?"
The "Roman Empire" as seen in the 1st century has not been for centuries now, Riverm. There is absolutly noone that fits these "qualifications" as the Roman Catholic Church does.

"Vatican City is where the Catholic Church is headquartered, not the City of Rome."
You cant be serious, riverm. I mean, I would think that it would be too embarrasing to post something like that.

"Vatican City is built on 1 hill, not 7, Rome is built on 7 hills, also those 7 hills are on the East side of the Tiber River; the Vatican is on the West Side…"
The Vatican is located in Rome, riverm. Hence, the prophecy of sitting on seven hills fits her perfectly.

"Again I ask which Rome is Hunt speaking of, pagan Rome or a Christian Rome"
The only one that fits perfectly.

The Catholic Church based in Rome.

"The answer is obvious; someone has an agenda and is leading his flock like blind sheep…"
And I wish the Catholic Church would come to its senses and stop doing that.

But I doubt that she will.

Mike
 

D28guy

New Member
tragic pizza,

""Many waters" would refer to the wide reach of the Empire; encompassing much of the known world at the time of the writing. Political influence (kings and harlotry and whatnot) would be obvious in this context. Purple and scarlet are the colors of kings, and in particular the Roman Emporer. Wine was a big deal to Romans, as was ostentatious wealth."
But the government of Rome...from the 1st century...never attained literal world wide influence.

The "harlot" that "sits on 7 hills" does. And the false christian church that fits all of these signs, known as the Catholic Church, of course has.

God bless,

Mike
 

D28guy

New Member
Here is an excerpt from an excellant article concerning these things. A link is at the end...

"...I saw a woman sit upon a scarlet coloured beast, full of names of blasphemy, having seven heads....

And the woman was arrayed in purple and scarlet colour, and decked with gold and precious stones and pearls, having a golden cup in her hand full of abominations and filthiness of her fornication....

And the woman which thou sawest is that great city, which reigneth over the kings of the earth.
And here is the mind which hath wisdom. The seven heads are seven mountains [or hills], on which the woman sitteth."
(Rev. 17:3,4,18,9)

A woman rides the beast that represents Antichrist and the revived Roman Empire he will rule. She is a city built on seven hills that reigns over the kings of the earth! John equates the readers' acceptance of this revelation with "wisdom." That insight demands our careful and prayerful attention.

Many prophecy teachers insist that the woman is the United States. No, the US is a country. It might justifiably be referred to as Sodom, considering the honor now given to homosexuals, but it is not "Mystery Babylon." She is declared to be a city.

Nor is the woman ancient Babylon now being rebuilt in Iraq, for it is not built on seven hills. Some other cities are, but only Rome meets all the criteria, including being known as Babylon. Even Catholic apologist Karl Keating confirms that Rome was known as Babylon and cites 1 Peter 5:13. The Catholic Encyclopedia states, "It is within the city of Rome, called the city of seven hills, that the entire area of Vatican State proper is now confined."

The woman is called a "whore" (v 1), with whom earthly kings "have committed fornication" (v 2). Against only two cities could such a charge be made: Jerusalem and Rome. Jerusalem was indicted for spiritual fornication by numerous prophets (Is 1:21, etc.), but does not meet the other criteria. Vatican City claims to have been the worldwide headquarters of Christianity since its beginning. Her pope claims to be the Vicar of Christ, and his Church the true Church and bride of Christ.

Christ said His kingdom was not of this world, otherwise His servants would fight. The popes have fought with armies and navies in the name of Christ to build a worldwide empire. Vatican II states that even today the Roman Catholic Church ceaselessly seeks to bring under its control all mankind and all their goods. And in furtherance of these goals it has engaged, exactly as John foresaw, in fornication (unholy alliances) with the kings of the earth.

She is clothed in "purple and scarlet" (v 4), the colors of the Catholic clergy. The Catholic Encyclopedia states,

Cappa Magna - A cloak with a long train and a hooded shoulder cape...[it] was purple wool for bishops; for cardinals, it was scarlet watered silk....

Cassock - The close-fitting, ankle-length robe worn by the Catholic clergy as their official garb....The color for bishops and other prelates is purple, for cardinals scarlet.... (Emphasis added)

Her incredible wealth next caught John's eye. She was "decked with gold and precious stones and pearls...." (v 4) Even Christ's blood-stained cross has been turned to gold, reflecting her riches. The Catholic Encyclopedia says, "The pectoral cross [suspended by a chain around the neck of abbots, bishops, archbishops, cardinals and the pope] should be made of gold and...decorated with gems...."

She had "a golden cup [chalice] in her hand full of abominations and filthiness of her fornication" (v 4). The Catholic Encyclopedia calls the gold chalice "the most important of the sacred vessels...." That Church is known for its many thousands of gold chalices around the world. A recent newspaper article reported,

The fabulous treasure of Lourdes [France], whose existence was kept secret by the Catholic Church for 120 years, has been unveiled....Rumours have been circulating for decades about a priceless collection of gold chalices, diamond-studded crucifixes, silver and precious stones....

After an indiscreet remark by their press spokesman this week, church authorities agreed to reveal part of the collection... [some] floor-to-ceiling cases were opened to reveal 59 solid gold chalices alongside rings, crucifixes, statues and heavy gold brooches, many encrusted with precious stones.

Almost hidden by the other treasures is the "Crown" of Notre Dame de Lourdes, made by a Paris goldsmith in 1876 and studded with diamonds.

Church authorities say they cannot put a value on the collection. "I have no idea," says Father Pierre-Marie Charriez. ..."It is of inestimable value."

Across the road is a building housing hundreds of [antique] ecclesiastical garments, robes, mitres and sashes—many
in heavy gold thread....

"The Church itself is poor," insists Father Charriez. "The Vatican itself is poor." (Emphasis added) [And the treasure described here is only part of that which is kept in one location, the small town of Lourdes, France!]

She has practiced evil to gather her wealth, for the "golden cup" is filled with "abominations and filthiness." Much of the wealth of the Roman Catholic Church was acquired by confiscating property of the Inquisitions' pitiful victims. Even the dead were exhumed to face trial and property was taken from their heirs by the Church. That practice, one historian writes, offered "unlimited opportunities for loot."

Most of Rome's wealth has been acquired through the sale of salvation. Untold billions of dollars have been paid to her by those who thought they were purchasing heaven on the installment plan for themselves or loved ones. The practice continues to this day—blatantly where Catholicism is in control, less obviously here in the United States where (for example) one pays the Church to have a Mass card placed on the altar in the name of the deceased during Mass to reduce time in purgatory. The wealthy often leave a fortune for masses to be said for their salvation after their death.

In addition to such perversions of the gospel, there are the further abominations (fully documented in police and court records) of corrupt banking practices, laundering of drug money, trading in counterfeit securities and dealings with the Mafia, which the Vatican and her representatives around the world have long employed. Former Business Week correspondent in Rome, Nino Lo Bello, who because of its incredible wealth calls Rome "the tycoon on the Tiber," says the Vatican is so closely allied with the Mafia in Italy that "many people...believe that Sicily...is nothing more than a Vatican holding."

John's attention is next drawn to the inscription on the woman's forehead: "the mother of harlots and abominations of the earth" (v 5). Sadly enough, the Roman Catholic Church fits that description as precisely as she fits the others. Much of the cause is due to the unbiblical doctrine of priestly celibacy.

The great Apostle Paul was a celibate and recommended that life to others who wanted to devote themselves fully to serving Christ. He did not, however, make it a condition for church leadership as the Catholic Church has done, thereby imposing an unnatural burden upon her clergy that very few could bear. On the contrary, he wrote that a bishop should be "the husband of one wife" (1 Tm 3:2) and set the same requirement for elders (Ti 1:5-6).

The doctrine of celibacy has been broken repeatedly by millions of priests and nuns, bishops, archbishops, cardinals and many popes such as Sergius III, John X, John XII, Benedict V, Innocent VIII, Urban VIII, Innocent X, et al. Celibacy has made sinners of the clergy and harlots out of those with whom they secretly cohabit. The Catholic Church has paid about $1 billion in out-of-court settlements in the last few years for sexual sins of its clergy in the USA alone. Rome is indeed "the mother of harlots"!

History is replete with sayings that mocked Romanism's false claim to celibacy: "The holiest hermit has his whore" and "Rome has more prostitutes than any other city because she has the most celibates" are examples. Pope Pius II called Rome "the only city run by bastards," the sons and grandsons of popes and cardinals.

Even Catholic historians admit that among the popes were some of the most degenerate and unconscionable ogres in all history. More than one pope was slain by a husband who found him in bed with his wife. To call such a man "His Holiness, Vicar of Christ" makes a mockery of holiness and of Christ. Yet the name of each of these mass murderers, fornicators, robbers, warmongers—some guilty of the massacre of thousands—is emblazoned in honor on the Church's official list of Peter's alleged successors, the popes.

John next notices that the woman is drunk—and not with alcohol but with "the blood of the saints, and with the blood of the martyrs of Jesus..."(v 6). One thinks immediately of the Inquisitions (Roman, Medieval and Spanish) which for centuries held Europe in their terrible grip. Canon Llorente, who was the Secretary to the Inquisition in Madrid from 1790-92 and had access to the archives of all the tribunals, estimated that in Spain alone the number of condemned exceeded 3 million, with about 300,000 burned at the stake. A Catholic historian writes,

When Napoleon conquered Spain in 1808, a Polish officer in his army, Colonel Lemanouski, reported that the Dominicans blockaded themselves in their monastery in Madrid. When Lemanouski's troops forced an entry, the inquisitors denied the existence of any torture chambers.

The soldiers searched the monastery and discovered them under the floors. The chambers were full of prisoners, all naked, many insane. The French troops, used to cruelty and blood, could not stomach the sight. They emptied the torture-chambers, laid gunpowder to the monastery and blew the place up.

The remnants of some of the chambers of horror remain in Europe and may be visited today. They stand as memorials to the zealous outworking of Roman Catholic dogmas which remain in force, and to a Church which claims to be infallible and to this day justifies such barbarism. They are also memorials to the astonishing accuracy of John's vision in Revelation 17. Do not forget, that Church has not yet officially admitted that these practices were evil, nor apologized to the world or to any of the victims or their descendants. Nor could John Paul II fully apologize today because "the doctrines responsible for those terrible things still underpin his position."

"Christian" Rome has slaughtered many times the number of both Christians and Jews that pagan Rome did. Beside those victims of the Inquisitions, there were Huguenots, Albigenses, Waldenses and other Christians, massacred, tortured and burned at the stake by the hundreds of thousands simply because they refused to align themselves with the Roman Catholic Church. Listen to the leading nineteenth-century Catholic professor of church history:

The view of the Church had been...[that] every departure from the teaching of the Church...must be punished with death, and the most cruel of deaths, by fire....

Both the initiation and carrying out of this...must be ascribed to the Popes alone...who compelled bishops and priests to condemn heretics to torture, confiscation of their goods, imprisonment, and death, and to enforce the execution of this sentence on the civil authorities, under pain of excommunication. (Emphasis added)
Click here for full article


Sadly,

Mike
 

BobRyan

Well-Known Member
Originally posted by BobRyan:
Mike brings up a good point from Rev 17. And one could take that same piont from Daniel 7 or Rev 12 and 13.

The real question is this - what does the Bible say about the RCC? Simply "ignoring any text that seems to point that direction" might be the "solution" for someone how is married to an institution and blindly defending it at all costs - but at some point Christians have to have a serious interest in what the Bible actually says EVEN if it is not flattering of one's chosen denomination.
Originally posted by tragic_pizza:

Again, unless the text in question does not point to the Catholic Church, but to the Roman government of the era in which the text was written. [/QB]
To know if that is the case - we would need to look at the details in the text and see how they correlate to the history they are highlighting.

Also - we would need to take the arguments very seriously without wearing our "Feelings" on our sleeve. Nobody here "invented" the Bible, or Christianity or Protestantism or the RCC. So it should just be a simple matter of evaluating the evidence.

In Christ,

Bob
 

riverm

New Member
Originally posted by D28guy:
Here is an excerpt from an excellant article concerning these things. A link is at the end...

</font><blockquote>quote:</font><hr />"...I saw a woman sit upon a scarlet coloured beast, full of names of blasphemy, having seven heads....

And the woman was arrayed in purple and scarlet colour, and decked with gold and precious stones and pearls, having a golden cup in her hand full of abominations and filthiness of her fornication....

And the woman which thou sawest is that great city, which reigneth over the kings of the earth.
And here is the mind which hath wisdom. The seven heads are seven mountains [or hills], on which the woman sitteth."
(Rev. 17:3,4,18,9)

A woman rides the beast that represents Antichrist and the revived Roman Empire he will rule. She is a city built on seven hills that reigns over the kings of the earth! John equates the readers' acceptance of this revelation with "wisdom." That insight demands our careful and prayerful attention.

Many prophecy teachers insist that the woman is the United States. No, the US is a country. It might justifiably be referred to as Sodom, considering the honor now given to homosexuals, but it is not "Mystery Babylon." She is declared to be a city.

Nor is the woman ancient Babylon now being rebuilt in Iraq, for it is not built on seven hills. Some other cities are, but only Rome meets all the criteria, including being known as Babylon. Even Catholic apologist Karl Keating confirms that Rome was known as Babylon and cites 1 Peter 5:13. The Catholic Encyclopedia states, "It is within the city of Rome, called the city of seven hills, that the entire area of Vatican State proper is now confined."

The woman is called a "whore" (v 1), with whom earthly kings "have committed fornication" (v 2). Against only two cities could such a charge be made: Jerusalem and Rome. Jerusalem was indicted for spiritual fornication by numerous prophets (Is 1:21, etc.), but does not meet the other criteria. Vatican City claims to have been the worldwide headquarters of Christianity since its beginning. Her pope claims to be the Vicar of Christ, and his Church the true Church and bride of Christ.

Christ said His kingdom was not of this world, otherwise His servants would fight. The popes have fought with armies and navies in the name of Christ to build a worldwide empire. Vatican II states that even today the Roman Catholic Church ceaselessly seeks to bring under its control all mankind and all their goods. And in furtherance of these goals it has engaged, exactly as John foresaw, in fornication (unholy alliances) with the kings of the earth.

She is clothed in "purple and scarlet" (v 4), the colors of the Catholic clergy. The Catholic Encyclopedia states,

Cappa Magna - A cloak with a long train and a hooded shoulder cape...[it] was purple wool for bishops; for cardinals, it was scarlet watered silk....

Cassock - The close-fitting, ankle-length robe worn by the Catholic clergy as their official garb....The color for bishops and other prelates is purple, for cardinals scarlet.... (Emphasis added)

Her incredible wealth next caught John's eye. She was "decked with gold and precious stones and pearls...." (v 4) Even Christ's blood-stained cross has been turned to gold, reflecting her riches. The Catholic Encyclopedia says, "The pectoral cross [suspended by a chain around the neck of abbots, bishops, archbishops, cardinals and the pope] should be made of gold and...decorated with gems...."

She had "a golden cup [chalice] in her hand full of abominations and filthiness of her fornication" (v 4). The Catholic Encyclopedia calls the gold chalice "the most important of the sacred vessels...." That Church is known for its many thousands of gold chalices around the world. A recent newspaper article reported,

The fabulous treasure of Lourdes [France], whose existence was kept secret by the Catholic Church for 120 years, has been unveiled....Rumours have been circulating for decades about a priceless collection of gold chalices, diamond-studded crucifixes, silver and precious stones....

After an indiscreet remark by their press spokesman this week, church authorities agreed to reveal part of the collection... [some] floor-to-ceiling cases were opened to reveal 59 solid gold chalices alongside rings, crucifixes, statues and heavy gold brooches, many encrusted with precious stones.

Almost hidden by the other treasures is the "Crown" of Notre Dame de Lourdes, made by a Paris goldsmith in 1876 and studded with diamonds.

Church authorities say they cannot put a value on the collection. "I have no idea," says Father Pierre-Marie Charriez. ..."It is of inestimable value."

Across the road is a building housing hundreds of [antique] ecclesiastical garments, robes, mitres and sashes—many
in heavy gold thread....

"The Church itself is poor," insists Father Charriez. "The Vatican itself is poor." (Emphasis added) [And the treasure described here is only part of that which is kept in one location, the small town of Lourdes, France!]

She has practiced evil to gather her wealth, for the "golden cup" is filled with "abominations and filthiness." Much of the wealth of the Roman Catholic Church was acquired by confiscating property of the Inquisitions' pitiful victims. Even the dead were exhumed to face trial and property was taken from their heirs by the Church. That practice, one historian writes, offered "unlimited opportunities for loot."

Most of Rome's wealth has been acquired through the sale of salvation. Untold billions of dollars have been paid to her by those who thought they were purchasing heaven on the installment plan for themselves or loved ones. The practice continues to this day—blatantly where Catholicism is in control, less obviously here in the United States where (for example) one pays the Church to have a Mass card placed on the altar in the name of the deceased during Mass to reduce time in purgatory. The wealthy often leave a fortune for masses to be said for their salvation after their death.

In addition to such perversions of the gospel, there are the further abominations (fully documented in police and court records) of corrupt banking practices, laundering of drug money, trading in counterfeit securities and dealings with the Mafia, which the Vatican and her representatives around the world have long employed. Former Business Week correspondent in Rome, Nino Lo Bello, who because of its incredible wealth calls Rome "the tycoon on the Tiber," says the Vatican is so closely allied with the Mafia in Italy that "many people...believe that Sicily...is nothing more than a Vatican holding."

John's attention is next drawn to the inscription on the woman's forehead: "the mother of harlots and abominations of the earth" (v 5). Sadly enough, the Roman Catholic Church fits that description as precisely as she fits the others. Much of the cause is due to the unbiblical doctrine of priestly celibacy.

The great Apostle Paul was a celibate and recommended that life to others who wanted to devote themselves fully to serving Christ. He did not, however, make it a condition for church leadership as the Catholic Church has done, thereby imposing an unnatural burden upon her clergy that very few could bear. On the contrary, he wrote that a bishop should be "the husband of one wife" (1 Tm 3:2) and set the same requirement for elders (Ti 1:5-6).

The doctrine of celibacy has been broken repeatedly by millions of priests and nuns, bishops, archbishops, cardinals and many popes such as Sergius III, John X, John XII, Benedict V, Innocent VIII, Urban VIII, Innocent X, et al. Celibacy has made sinners of the clergy and harlots out of those with whom they secretly cohabit. The Catholic Church has paid about $1 billion in out-of-court settlements in the last few years for sexual sins of its clergy in the USA alone. Rome is indeed "the mother of harlots"!

History is replete with sayings that mocked Romanism's false claim to celibacy: "The holiest hermit has his whore" and "Rome has more prostitutes than any other city because she has the most celibates" are examples. Pope Pius II called Rome "the only city run by bastards," the sons and grandsons of popes and cardinals.

Even Catholic historians admit that among the popes were some of the most degenerate and unconscionable ogres in all history. More than one pope was slain by a husband who found him in bed with his wife. To call such a man "His Holiness, Vicar of Christ" makes a mockery of holiness and of Christ. Yet the name of each of these mass murderers, fornicators, robbers, warmongers—some guilty of the massacre of thousands—is emblazoned in honor on the Church's official list of Peter's alleged successors, the popes.

John next notices that the woman is drunk—and not with alcohol but with "the blood of the saints, and with the blood of the martyrs of Jesus..."(v 6). One thinks immediately of the Inquisitions (Roman, Medieval and Spanish) which for centuries held Europe in their terrible grip. Canon Llorente, who was the Secretary to the Inquisition in Madrid from 1790-92 and had access to the archives of all the tribunals, estimated that in Spain alone the number of condemned exceeded 3 million, with about 300,000 burned at the stake. A Catholic historian writes,

When Napoleon conquered Spain in 1808, a Polish officer in his army, Colonel Lemanouski, reported that the Dominicans blockaded themselves in their monastery in Madrid. When Lemanouski's troops forced an entry, the inquisitors denied the existence of any torture chambers.

The soldiers searched the monastery and discovered them under the floors. The chambers were full of prisoners, all naked, many insane. The French troops, used to cruelty and blood, could not stomach the sight. They emptied the torture-chambers, laid gunpowder to the monastery and blew the place up.

The remnants of some of the chambers of horror remain in Europe and may be visited today. They stand as memorials to the zealous outworking of Roman Catholic dogmas which remain in force, and to a Church which claims to be infallible and to this day justifies such barbarism. They are also memorials to the astonishing accuracy of John's vision in Revelation 17. Do not forget, that Church has not yet officially admitted that these practices were evil, nor apologized to the world or to any of the victims or their descendants. Nor could John Paul II fully apologize today because "the doctrines responsible for those terrible things still underpin his position."

"Christian" Rome has slaughtered many times the number of both Christians and Jews that pagan Rome did. Beside those victims of the Inquisitions, there were Huguenots, Albigenses, Waldenses and other Christians, massacred, tortured and burned at the stake by the hundreds of thousands simply because they refused to align themselves with the Roman Catholic Church. Listen to the leading nineteenth-century Catholic professor of church history:

The view of the Church had been...[that] every departure from the teaching of the Church...must be punished with death, and the most cruel of deaths, by fire....

Both the initiation and carrying out of this...must be ascribed to the Popes alone...who compelled bishops and priests to condemn heretics to torture, confiscation of their goods, imprisonment, and death, and to enforce the execution of this sentence on the civil authorities, under pain of excommunication. (Emphasis added)
Click here for full article


Sadly,

Mike
</font>[/QUOTE]You said you never regurgitated Dave Hunt, well you just did…was it good?
 

BobRyan

Well-Known Member
The fabulous treasure of Lourdes [France], whose existence was kept secret by the Catholic Church for 120 years, has been unveiled....Rumours have been circulating for decades about a priceless collection of gold chalices, diamond-studded crucifixes, silver and precious stones....

After an indiscreet remark by their press spokesman this week, church authorities agreed to reveal part of the collection... [some] floor-to-ceiling cases were opened to reveal 59 solid gold chalices alongside rings, crucifixes, statues and heavy gold brooches, many encrusted with precious stones.

Almost hidden by the other treasures is the "Crown" of Notre Dame de Lourdes, made by a Paris goldsmith in 1876 and studded with diamonds.

Church authorities say they cannot put a value on the collection. "I have no idea," says Father Pierre-Marie Charriez. ..."It is of inestimable value."
How DARE Dave Hunt report these facts!! Blinders on folks! We wont listen to any more of this!
 

D28guy

New Member
Riverm,

I didnt "regurgitate" Dave Hunt...I QUOTED him.

I took your comment about me "regurgitating" him as my simply posting his material as if it were mine. That would be plagerism as well as "regurgitating" his work.

There are multitudes of ministries propagating the same truth about Catholicism that Dave Hunt so excellently propagates and backs up with source notes. Its actually a good testimony that so many are angered by the truth he shares regarding Catholicism.

The good news is that...by the millions...those with "ears to hear" are fleeing the clutches of Rome as a result of hearing the truth about it.

Mike
 

Doubting Thomas

Active Member
Originally posted by D28guy:
I've never regurgitated Dave Hunt at all. There are so many good ministries of this nature. But that brothers books on Catholicism are just excellant. I'll amit that. Heavily annotated of course. He does a great job with footnotes and references.
The mere fact of work being "heavily annotated" with lots of "footnotes and references" doesn't mean much when those primary sources referenced are being mischaracterized more often than not by the author of said work. You see, I used to be impressed with Dave Hunt's work as well believing that the RCC just had to be the "whore of Babylon". It's amazing how one's perspective can change, however, when one reads the primary sources for oneself and sees how the primary source conveys something entirely different that how it is portrayed in secondary material.

</font><blockquote>quote:</font><hr />"When are you going to learn to think for yourself and actually study and look at all views and then come to an informative decision?"
I do...but interestingly I've been wondering for years now when Catholics will start "thinking for themselves" in order to see the foundational errors of Rome. </font>[/QUOTE]The fact that you have yet to answer Chemnitz regarding Wylie's distortion of Ambrose betrays a contentment you have to spout of anti-Catholic polemics rather than thinking for yourself. Without critically examining whether Wylie is faithfully portraying the primary sources he has cited, you seem to be persuaded that, by the sheer number of footnotes that he included in his work, that his account is correct, presumably because he shares your same anti-Catholic bias. However a large volume of footnotes fails to impress those who are aware of distortions of primary sources in certain secondary "scholarly" works.

</font><blockquote>quote:</font><hr />"I myself was guilty for a long time, but I guess you can say I was once blind, but now see."
I wouldnt say that, but you obviously do. Its not hard to "see" the truth of Catholicism...just compare it to the truth found in the scriptures. </font>[/QUOTE]You mean the "truth" as found in the scriptures misinterpreted by anti-Catholic propagandists?
 

D28guy

New Member
Doubting Thomas,

"You mean the "truth" as found in the scriptures misinterpreted by anti-Catholic propagandists?"
No.

The truth of the scriptures, which is in direct contradiction...in foundational areas...to the false teachings and false gospel of the Catholic Church.

Thanks for asking.

Mike
 

Doubting Thomas

Active Member
Originally posted by D28guy:

The truth of the scriptures, which is in direct contradiction...in foundational areas...to the false teachings and false gospel of the Catholic Church.

Thanks for asking.

Mike
Actually the truth of the scriptures, as believed by the historic consensus of the orthodox Christian Church, are also in direct contradiction...in some key foundational areas...to the false teachings and watered-down gospel of the modern day, neo-evangelical McChristian denominations.
 

tragic_pizza

New Member
Originally posted by D28guy:
tragic pizza,

</font><blockquote>quote:</font><hr />""Many waters" would refer to the wide reach of the Empire; encompassing much of the known world at the time of the writing. Political influence (kings and harlotry and whatnot) would be obvious in this context. Purple and scarlet are the colors of kings, and in particular the Roman Emporer. Wine was a big deal to Romans, as was ostentatious wealth."
But the government of Rome...from the 1st century...never attained literal world wide influence.

The "harlot" that "sits on 7 hills" does. And the false christian church that fits all of these signs, known as the Catholic Church, of course has.

God bless,

Mike
</font>[/QUOTE]You know, of course, that in the first century, Rome was the world's sole superpower? And that, save for a very small area, at the time, Rome owned the known world? You know, of course, that the city of Rome sits on seven hills, right? And you, of course, know that at the time Revelation was written, there was no established Catholic church.

Now, let's you and I think a minute. Christians were being terribly persecuted while Revelation was being written, right? One of the best ways to die slowly and horribly was to make fun of the Big Guy, which was the governmnt of the Roman Empire and her seat.

With me so far? Good.

Now, if the people for whom this book was primarily written for were reading it, what would they think when they read about the harlot who sits on seven hills, the kings, etc.?

A yet-unknown Christian religious group?

Or a pagan, persecuting world power, whose center was Caesar worship?

Think about that for a minute.

Yes, Revelation is prophetic, but I refuse to believe that the only people who can properly interpret Revelation are rabid antiCatholics. I refuse to believe that Revelation, or any part of Scripture, would go against the obvious madate of Jesus, James, John, etc. that love for our Christian brothers and sisters is the penultimate evidence of our faith.
 

myfavoritmartin

New Member
As a friend of mine once said Catholics look at scripture through the lens of 1 verse, Matthew 16:18, all others look at Matthew 16:18 through the lens of all the rest of the scripture.
They also enjoy Supercedeing scripture with tradition, even against god's will.
 

BobRyan

Well-Known Member
Yes, Revelation is prophetic, but I refuse to believe that the only people who can properly interpret Revelation are rabid antiCatholics.
#1. IF non-Catholics have to be called "rabid" then are the pro-dark ages RC posters "rabid Dark Ages devotees"??

#2. There is no question but that John includes the slaughter of many Christians by the Pagan Roman empire in his panoramic view of 2000 years of future history as you noted. So also the Papal Roman Empires slaughter of its 75 million Christians.

As even pro-Catholic commentaries such as Malachi Martin's - clearly state - the PAPAL Roman system that followed on the heels of Papal Rome - rules from the SAME seat of power and excercises MORE control over the SAME territory for a LONGER period than did Pagan Rome!

The Golden Age for the RCC was the dark ages for mankind!!

In Rev 12 we see the PURE woman pre-cross that is the church in OT times giving birth to the Messiah. Then the SAME church is seen in the NT going into exile in Rev 12 for 1260 years. That time line goes FAR BEYOND pagan Rome and DEEP INTO THE HEART of Papal Rome!!

There is just no escaping it!!

In Christ,

Bob
 

D28guy

New Member
tragicpizza,

"I refuse to believe that Revelation, or any part of Scripture, would go against the obvious madate of Jesus, James, John, etc. that love for our Christian brothers and sisters is the penultimate evidence of our faith.
I agree 100% with this. I love Catholics enough to tell them the truth, both in my words, in the scriptures, and the testimony of others who love them just as much.

God bless all,

Mike
 

D28guy

New Member
tragicpizza,

"You know, of course, that in the first century, Rome was the world's sole superpower? And that, save for a very small area, at the time, Rome owned the known world? You know, of course, that the city of Rome sits on seven hills, right? And you, of course, know that at the time Revelation was written, there was no established Catholic church.

Now, let's you and I think a minute. Christians were being terribly persecuted while Revelation was being written, right? One of the best ways to die slowly and horribly was to make fun of the Big Guy, which was the governmnt of the Roman Empire and her seat.

With me so far? Good.

Now, if the people for whom this book was primarily written for were reading it, what would they think when they read about the harlot who sits on seven hills, the kings, etc.?"
The reason for your confusion is that you are misunderstanding the primary purpose of Gods scriptures.

God did not give the scriptures primarilly to those of the 1st century.

Gods scriptures are primarily for those in the 1st century, and the 2nd century, and the 3rd century, and for those actual born again people all through the Catholic bloodshed during the dark ages, and during the wonderful time of reformation, and right up until you and I exchanging ideas right now.

That is who the scriptures are primarily for.

"Yes, Revelation is prophetic, but I refuse to believe that the only people who can properly interpret Revelation are rabid antiCatholics."
I dont either.

And I am not anti-Catholic. I love Catholic people. I love then enough to tell them the truth.

I am anti-false gospel, anti-blasphemy, anti-idolatry, and anti-Catholic Hierarchial organisation of Rome.

Not anti-Catholic.

God bless,

Mike
 
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