Roman Catholicism , cult or not? Part II

Living_stone · Apr 22, 2006

You misunderstand me, I think.

"Imprimatur" means "let it be printed."

It has nothing to do with inerrancy--"Means the work is free from error per se." No work is without error except the Bible.

No offence, but malarkey. Many works are inerrant, even if they're not inspired. The automotive manual for my Ford is inerrant insofar as I can tell. It doesn't contain error. Inerrant and inspired are not the same things. My ford manual contains facts on the proper care of my ford and is correct.

Now Catholic's have another term, Nihil Obstat which means "no errors", and implies that the church approves of the work insofar as she's not found anything inhernetly against the faith.

Living_stone · Apr 22, 2006

The Catholic writings are full of errors, contradictions, etc., and in no way can be defined as "free from error." The word "imprimatur" doesn't even come close to that meaning. Look it up in a dictionary for yourself.

You're free to be biased. But at the least it means it is inerrant insofar as it correctly teaches Catholic Doctrine.

DHK · Apr 22, 2006

Originally posted by Living_stone:
You misunderstand me, I think.

"Imprimatur" means "let it be printed."

<blockquote>quote:<hr />It has nothing to do with inerrancy--"Means the work is free from error per se." No work is without error except the Bible.

No offence, but malarkey. Many works are inerrant, even if they're not inspired. The automotive manual for my Ford is inerrant insofar as I can tell. It doesn't contain error. Inerrant and inspired are not the same things. My ford manual contains facts on the proper care of my ford and is correct.

Now Catholic's have another term, Nihil Obstat which means "no errors", and implies that the church approves of the work insofar as she's not found anything inhernetly against the faith. [/QUOTE]I can probably find error in your ford manual. I have one too. It is made by man. Man is fallible. He cannot make infallible things. Only God is perfect, and He has given us a perfect Book called the Bible, which is inerrant (free from errors).

Numbers 23:19 God is not a man, that he should lie; neither the son of man, that he should repent: hath he said, and shall he not do it? or hath he spoken, and shall he not make it good?

Perhaps the specifications on the size of your gas tank aren't right. It can't be right, because it can't be measured to perfection, only to approximation. Man doesn't live in a perfect world. Much of what your manual says about your car is not true for the very fact that your car is already in a state of degeneration succumbing to the 2nd Law of Thermodynamics and not operating at peak performance as the manual describes it.

With God there is no decay. He is immutable. He is the same: yesterday, today and forever. His Word is perfect. Man's isn't.
Nothing that man can do or say is without error, for man is fallible. He is a sinner.

Romans 3:4 God forbid: yea, let God be true, but every man a liar; as it is written, That thou mightest be justified in thy sayings, and mightest overcome when thou art judged.
DHK

DHK · Apr 22, 2006

Originally posted by Living_stone:
<blockquote>quote:<hr />The Catholic writings are full of errors, contradictions, etc., and in no way can be defined as "free from error." The word "imprimatur" doesn't even come close to that meaning. Look it up in a dictionary for yourself.

You're free to be biased. But at the least it means it is inerrant insofar as it correctly teaches Catholic Doctrine. [/QUOTE]Psalms 19:7 The law of the LORD is perfect, converting the soul: the testimony of the LORD is sure, making wise the simple.

Only God's Word is perfect.
Those who imagine that man's words are perfect are naively mistaken, and put themselves in the place of God Himself.

1 John 1:8 If we say that we have no sin, we deceive ourselves, and the truth is not in us.

1 John 1:10 If we say that we have not sinned, we make him a liar, and his word is not in us.

BobRyan · Apr 22, 2006

quote:
--------------------------------------------------------------------------------
The RCC itself AGREES with DHK - IF the doctrines THAT IT TEACHES and that the non-Catholic Christians reject as false - as opposed to scripture - are in fact WRONG (That is to say - IF the non-Catholics are RIGHT about THEIR OWN beliefs on these points of difference - beliefs where non-Catholics DO NOT think man can confect God - vs - beliefs where the RCC claims TO be able to confect God) -- then the RCC is guilty of idol worship!
--------------------------------------------------------------------------------

LS said -
I've read that three times and it's not making sense yet. Can you clarify?

I thought "The Faith Explained" was pretty clear on this point. It SHOWS that IF the RC doctrine on the Eucharist (and confecting God) is wrong - (which means - IF The NON-RC view on this being symbolism is RIGHT) then the RCC is in fact practicing idol worship!! The exact quote is "Worshipping a piece of BREAD" -- as though it was GOD!

Your argument was that DHK did not get the DIFFERENCE between the Non-RC view of doctrine and the RC view "correct" and that even given that difference - the RC should not be viewed as a cult - merely as a denomination with different doctrinal views.

But the FE states very clearly that IF the RC is wrong on this ONE teaching alone - it is guilty of idolatry!

So my question for you -- "what is not to get"??

In Christ,

Bob

BobRyan · Apr 22, 2006

quote:
--------------------------------------------------------------------------------
RC Eucharist is “idolatry” (if non-Catholics are right) according to the RCC.
--------------------------------------------------------------------------------

LS
And all Christians are guilty of idolatry if Christ was not raised. But he was so their not. Likewise the eucharist is his flesh, so they're not guilty of idolatry.

You are sidestepping again.

IF you are going to allow the FE point - THEN you have to admit that the GAP between the Catholic and non-Catholic view here is NO WIDE that IF the non-Catholics are right - then the Catholic church is practicing Idolatry and DHK's list does justify the "cult" label. (At least to the extent that idol worshipping is non-Christian).

I was simply using this as proof that your claim that DHK was over stating the GAP - the CHASM - between RC and non-RC doctrinal statments - is proven false EVEN by RC Source standards!

In Christ,

Bob

BobRyan · Apr 22, 2006

Originally posted by BobRyan:

RC Eucharist is “idolatry” (if non-Catholics are right) according to the RCC.

The Faith Explained – A bestselling RC commentary on the Baltimore Catechism post Vatican II by Leo J. Trese is promoted as “A standard reference for every Catholic home and library”. Complete with Papal Imprimatur -- Quote from page 350-351

Parenthetical inserts “mine”

<blockquote>quote:<hr />

The Faith Explained – Page 350

“On this, the last night before His death, Jesus is making His last will and testament.

Ibid. Page 351
A last will is no place for figurative speech (in the Catholic opinion); under the best of circumstances (human) courts sometimes have difficulty in interpreting a testator’s intentions aright, even without the confusion of symbolic language. Moreover, since Jesus is God, He knew that as a result of His words that night, untold millions of people would be worshipping him through the centuries under the appearance of the bread. if he would not really be present under those appearances, the worshippers would be adoring a mere piece of bread, and would be guilty of idolatry,. Certainly that is something that God Himself would set the stage for, by talking in obscure figurative speech.
…
IF Jesus was using a metaphor; if what He really meant was, “This bread is a sort of SYMBOL of My Body, and this is a SYMBOL of My Blood (not yet spilled – so they were not then participating in sacrifice); hereafter, any time that My followers get together and partake of the bread and wine like this, they will be honoring Me and representing My death”; if that IS what Jesus meant (as many protestants claim), then the apostles got Him all wrong (in the Catholic option here). And through their misunderstanding (can the Catholic document blame the Apostles instead of the Catholic church’s tradition that interjects this RC heresy?), mankind has for centuries worshiped A PIECE OF BREAD as God”

[/QB][/QUOTE]

BobRyan · Apr 22, 2006

Originally posted by ZeroTX:
In the meantime, I would like to suggest considering what traditions may have been passed down from Christ himself, and what man-made traditions are of no harm, but perhaps even a help.

Growing up as a Baptist, I surely appreciated our traditions. I haven't found a Scripture quote yet to indicate why we (in the traditional American Protestant traditions) build our churches with wooden pews, build a nice wooden pulpit to preach from, use hymnal books, have steeples on the churches, have a specific (regularly repated) order of church services, celebrate certain religious holidays on whichever days we do (Easter, Christmas), have Sunday School meeting before church, have church on Wednesday nights, use grape juice instead of wine for communion, etc, etc. They're mostly just traditions of men, aren't they?

Where does it instruct is in the Bible on what days would be holidays or any of these things?... It doesn't... it's tradition.

-Michael

My argument is not "there is no such thing as tradition that we follow today".

My argument is that ALL doctrine faith and practice must be tested by Scripture "alone".

If a local church "makes up a tradition" that everyone has to wear red when attending church - it may well become "a practice" for that group - but it is not a "mandate" of scripture and should not be confused with an authorotative statement from God.

Today we have "an 11 o'clock service" as a tradition - not a mandate from God.

In Christ,

Bob

Living_stone · Apr 23, 2006

I can probably find error in your ford manual. I have one too. It is made by man. Man is fallible.

"My daughter was born in Olathe, KS." THAT is an inerrant statement. Period.

"2+2=4" is an inerrant statement.

"Michael Jordan was number 23 for the Chicago Bulls" is an inerrant statement. It contains no error. It doesn't take divine guidance to speak without error about all things.

Eliyahu · Apr 23, 2006

Originally posted by ZeroTX:
I thank the Lord that our human failings didn't destroy our chance for salvation! As you can see from history, humans do a pretty good job of denying God's infinite abilities sometimes .

-Michael [/QB]

Amen! Great good post by you!

This is what I have thought about recently.

If we look at the world today, we can easily expect the Apostasy and the Rising of the Great Harlot who is gearing up for the great persecution of the True believers. Also we remember the horrible history in the past where the True Believers suffered a lot. Look at the whole world, how they are corrupted and they will be united to stand up against Christ and God.

However, if we look at Rev 7, we see so many people, hundred millions of Believers are coming out of the Tribulation and eventually we win in Rev 19.
On the one hand human beings are so weak and the history tells us that human beings failed all the time. However, from God's point of view, Christ has conquered and won the battles all the time throughout the history.

The fighters against the Great Harlot will be blessed and rewarded bountifully.

Remember that there were 7,000 True believers at the time of Elijah, but Elijah was the only one who fought the Idol worhship, fighting against Baal. Then he was the only one who enjoyed the blessings of Rapture.
Interestingly I notice the similar situation there when I read Rev 11 and Rev 12. In Rev 11, 2 witnesses ascended up to heaven ( 11:12) and the remnant give glory to God. As for these 2 witnesses, Zechariah 4 explains quite well, meaning the key people among the God's people.

There will be a big difference in the Reward for the believers, between the fighters against the Harlot and the obedient to the Harlot or participants in the Harlot. You can confirm this if you read Rev carefully.

D28guy · Apr 23, 2006

Living stone,

"The don't worship mary? But she is our mother."

No she is not.

I have a mother who is in heaven now, and her name is not Mary.

Mike

D28guy · Apr 23, 2006

Bob,

"Mary was not the first Christian, she was not the first to believe in the Messiah (Christ) - she came with her other children to Christ and accused him of having lost his mind.

Had a heart that so graciously said of God "be it done unto me according to they word", which we should all immitate. (At last a truth about Mary!)

Mary Is NOT the new Eve to Christ's new Adam. -- Christ ALONE provides the first sinless antitype for Adam. THERE IS no other redeemer or savior or God to "SHARE" this work with him as an equal - as Eve shared with Adam in being our first PARENTs. Christ was not MARRIED TO HIS MOTHER!

God said TO the ACTUAL EVE "I will put enmity between you and the woman, and between her seed and yours" says God in Genesis 3.

The "seed of the woman" represents the seed of mankind - and specifically Christ the God-man born among the children of Adam.

Mary is NOT Eve!

Christ was NOT married to His Mother!!

Mary is NOT the ark of the new covenant - NO TEXT speaks of Mary as being the ark or AN ark!

In Rev 11 we see the Temple in heaven opened but never do we see Mary in ALL of the book of Revelation.

The "woman" of rev 12 is the church in both OT and NT. The church goes into 1260 years of persecution in Rev 12. THAT persecution is that which was heaped upon her by the RCC.

Historically the EARTH itself comes to her aid - as she flees to the "new world" to escape persecution.

Davidically speaking, Mary is NOT the queen of heaven. David's mother was NEVER QUEEN of Israel!! Mary is NEVER called "Queen" by Christ OR by ANY Bible writer!!

Jesus begins his ministry at His Baptism and then was lead out into the wilderness for 40 days - after which He began to preach the same message that John preached about the Kingdom of heaven being at hand.

Mary NEVER asks Christ to preach about the Kingdom of heaven. NOR does Mary EVER ask Christ to offer Himself for the sins of mankind.

Scripture MAKES NO reference to the Marriage supper and the miracle of wine saying "from [that] day forth, all generations will call her blessed"."

Thank you for shedding light on the blasphemous and idolatrous material that you responded to.

Such as the idolatrous blasphemy you posted afterwards...

"Enraptured by the splendor of your heavenly beauty and impelled by the anxieties of the world, we cast ourselves into your arms, Oh Immaculate Mother of Jesus and our Mother....we adore and praise the peerless richness of the sublime gifts with which God has filled you above every other mere creature, from the moment of conception until the day on which after your assumption into heaven, He crowned you Queen of the Universe. Oh crystal fountain of
faith, bathe our hearts with your heavenly perfume. Oh Conqueress of evil and death, inspire in us a deep horror of sin which makes the soul detestable to God and the slave of hell. Oh well-beloved of God, hear the ardent cries which rise up from every heart in this year dedicated to you. Then tenderly, Oh Mary, cover our aching wound; convert the wicked, dry the tears of the afflicted and the oppressed. Comfort the poor and humble. Quench hatred,
sweeten harshness, safeguard the flower of purity and protect the Holy Church. In your name resounding harmoniously in heaven, may they recognize that all are brothers...Receive, Oh sweet Mother our humble supplications and above all, obtain for us that on that day, happy with you, we may repeat before your throne that hymn which is sung today around your altars. You are beautiful Oh Mary. You are Glory Oh Mary. You are the joy, you are the Honor of
our people." – Pope Pius XII, celebration of the Marian Year in Rome, 1950"

May Almighty God have mercy on all who utter such Satanically inspired words.

Very sadly,

Mike

BobRyan · Apr 23, 2006

It is kind of stunning - the lengths to which they have gone!

I agree with you Mike - it is sad indeed.

In Christ,

Bob

Eliyahu · Apr 23, 2006

This is one of the groundless beliefs held by RC

1 Peter 3:6

Even as Sara obeyed Abraham, calling him lord: whose daughters ye are , as long as ye do well, and are not afraid with any amazement

Here Peter mentions Sarah is the mother of women believers.

Galatian 4: 22-26
22 For it is written, that Abraham had two sons, the one by a bondmaid, the other by a freewoman. 23 But he who was of the bondwoman was born after the flesh; but he of the freewoman was by promise . 24 Which things are an allegory: for these are the two covenants; the one from the mount Sinai, which gendereth to bondage, which is Agar. 25 For this Agar is mount Sinai in Arabia, and answereth to Jerusalem which now is, and is in bondage with her children. 26 But Jerusalem which is above is free, which is the mother of us all .

Here Paul says Jerusalem is our mother, but if we read above, he mentions Jerusalem symbolizes Free-Woman who is Sarah again.

Where can we find Mary as Mother?

Often Catholic bring John 19:27 " Behold thy Mother!"
This is very good and perfect verse which denies the claim that Mary is the mother of the believers.
If He wanted to mean it, He would have said " Behold, your mother instead of Thy Mother"
Caring the mother better be left to the disciples instead of unbelieving brothers as we could see in Matt 12:46-50 as she was drifted by unbelieving sons.

If we want to see how much Jesus was careful in choosing between Ye and Thou or plural you and singular you, we can read John 3:7

"(thou) marvel not that I said to thee, Ye must born again"
You Nicodemos marvel not! that I said "You all human being must be born again":

D28guy · Apr 23, 2006

ZeroX

"Thankfully those are all mis-construed or inaccurate beliefs... I agree, if people believed that, they wouldn't be Christians."

What DHK and others are posting are not mis-construed or inaccurate. What DHK, Bob Ryan and many others are posting is the truth regarding Catholicsm.

"Thankfully, Catholics are very much Christian..."

I have no doubt that there is a small minority of Catholics who have somehow...accidentally?...stumbled upon saving faith in Christ. Most will eventually flee the CC or stay in to witness from within.

"Without the Catholic Church, there would be no Christianity..."

Complete rubbish.

"Without the Catholic Church, Christianity would have ended when Christ was put in the tomb."

Complete rubbish.

I hope you will stick around long enough to become enlightened regarding these great errors you are propagating.

God bless you,

Mike

Eliyahu · Apr 23, 2006

Originally posted by ZeroTX:
Without the Catholic Church, Christianity would have ended when Christ was put in the tomb.

-Michael [/QB]

I misunderstood your previous post! Sorry to tell you that you were grown up with wrong education by your father !

You might have never learned the true history of the church, regarding Baptists.

When I endorsed you about the Tradition, I thought you are talking about 1 Cor 11:1. But, any Tradition should be under the Bible, and should not contradict Bible Scripture, because Holy Spirit doesn't work in contradiction to the Bible teaching. Therefore if anyone claim that Tradition is important as Bible, that person is simply wrong!

Sorry to DHK, Bob, D28, because I misunderstood about this poster . I made a mistake here.

[ April 23, 2006, 02:27 AM: Message edited by: Eliyahu ]

Eliyahu · Apr 23, 2006

I wonder why Nobody explain or excuse about the Idol Making and Idol Worshipping by Roman Catholic since I posted this:

I wonder if the RC's or Pro-RC's here have ever read the Bible carefully, in 1 Kings 17:1- 2 Kings 2:14, where Elijah fought Baal Worshippers, Idol Worshippers vehemently.

Was Elijah wrong?

Didn't God condemn the Idol Worshippers severely?

Has God changed His commandments since after Holy Mother Mary?

1 Cor 6: 9-10

Know ye not that the unrighteous shall not inherit the kingdom of God? Be not deceived: neither fornicators, nor idolaters, nor adulterers, nor effeminate, nor abusers of themselves with mankind, 10 Nor thieves, nor covetous, nor drunkards, nor revilers, nor extortioners, shall inherit the kingdom of God .

15 For without are dogs, and sorcerers, and whoremongers, and murderers, and idolaters, and whosoever loveth and maketh a lie.

Do the Roman Catholics obey this teaching?

1 Cor 5:11
But now I have written unto you not to keep company, if any man that is called a brother be a fornicator, or covetous, or an idolater , or a railer, or a drunkard, or an extortioner; with such an one no not to eat.

Why does Bible condemn Idol worship more than 100 times, more than 20 times in NT only?
and why does Roman Catholic continue the whorish Idol Worship ? Can't they stop it ?

Why didn't New Testament make any exception for Mary, so-called Holy Mother?

Eliyahu · Apr 23, 2006

Originally posted by ZeroTX:

--------------------------------------------------------------------------------
The belief that Christ paid the full penalty for our sins is denied, in that one has to pay part of that penalty in purgatory.
--------------------------------------------------------------------------------

Phew, thank goodness! Thankfully all Christian groups believe this. Purgatory is not taught by the Catholic Church as a place of punishment. That's a way in which we were lied to somewhere down the line and it has been allowed to persist. If you get your theology information from The History Channel, then you might get confused like this. Truth is, Purgatory is considered by Catholics to be a place of cleansing and purification (purgatory, purge, purify) before standing before God. Of course Christ has died for our sins already, but do we not continue to sin? Surely we should be purged fully from those sins before we stand before the throne of God.

As a son of Baptist Pastor, do you believe in Purgatory? it is quite interesting!

How do you purge yourself in your daily life?

Don't you do it by relying on the Redemption by Jesus Christ?
Were you not purged enough by the Blood of Jesus Christ yet?

Eliyahu · Apr 23, 2006

Originally posted by ZeroTX:
Bob,

I actually want to spend a little time responding, but I have an obligation to go attend to this evening (a friend is getting married). However, I will get back ASAP

In the meantime, I would like to suggest considering what traditions may have been passed down from Christ himself, and what man-made traditions are of no harm, but perhaps even a help.

Growing up as a Baptist, I surely appreciated our traditions. I haven't found a Scripture quote yet to indicate why we (in the traditional American Protestant traditions) build our churches with wooden pews, build a nice wooden pulpit to preach from, use hymnal books, have steeples on the churches, have a specific (regularly repated) order of church services, celebrate certain religious holidays on whichever days we do (Easter, Christmas), have Sunday School meeting before church, have church on Wednesday nights, use grape juice instead of wine for communion, etc, etc. They're mostly just traditions of men, aren't they?

Where does it instruct is in the Bible on what days would be holidays or any of these things?... It doesn't... it's tradition.

-Michael

So, what if you find the Tradition contradicts Bible? Do you think Tradition can supersede Bible?

Do you know about Cathlic Mass where Priest ask and ask God to forgive sins every week without mentioning that those sins were already forgiven at the Cross? If they believe that the sins were already forgiven, why do they continue to ask God to forgive sins? Is that the Tradition? Do you follow that Tradition? Then you are not believing that your sins were forgiven already because you are still asking the forgiveness and you find the need for purging your sins yet.

Do you expect your destiny in the Purgatory depends on the prayers by the relatives after your death?

D28guy · Apr 23, 2006

ZeroTX,

"Truth is, Purgatory is considered by Catholics to be a place of cleansing and purification (purgatory, purge, purify) before standing before God. Of course Christ has died for our sins already, but do we not continue to sin? Surely we should be purged fully from those sins before we stand before the throne of God."

Its hellish lies like this that cause us to be so concerned about Catholicism. This devilish idea that what Christ did on our behalf on that cross...isnt enough. We have to go to purgatory to be further cleansed and purified.

What a Satanic lie that is. Its a mockery of the Lord Jesus Christ, who said on that cross, after paying the sin debt for every sin in the life of every believer...past sins, present sins, future sins...ALL of our sins, Christ said, concerning His sacrifice...

"IT...

IS...

FINISHED!!!"

And the Catholic Church says...

"No...

It...

ISNT!!!"

I dont know about anyone else, but when it comes to believing Almighty God or the Catholic Church...

I believe God.

Mike

Roman Catholicism , cult or not? Part II

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