Roman Catholicism , cult or not? Part II

[DHK]

Originally posted by ZeroTX:

</font><blockquote>quote:</font><hr />The belief that Christ paid the full penalty for our sins is denied, in that one has to pay part of that penalty in purgatory.

Phew, thank goodness! Thankfully all Christian groups believe this. Purgatory is not taught by the Catholic Church as a place of punishment. That's a way in which we were lied to somewhere down the line and it has been allowed to persist. If you get your theology information from The History Channel, then you might get confused like this. Truth is, Purgatory is considered by Catholics to be a place of cleansing and purification (purgatory, purge, purify) before standing before God. Of course Christ has died for our sins already, but do we not continue to sin? Surely we should be purged fully from those sins before we stand before the throne of God.
-Michael </font>[/QUOTE]It is the Catholic Church that has lied to you and deceived you. Their game of semantics and redefining words to appeal to the evangelical world without recanting the damage done by the anathemas of councils such as the Council of Trent is horrid and hyporcitical. Those anathemas still stand today, and every protestant alive stands under condemnation of them. If it weren't for the law of the land there would nothing preventing the Catholic Church putting me to death.

Here is the actual beliefs of the Catholic contrary to what you think they belief. First from the Catholic Encyclopedia:

Purgatory (Lat., "purgare", to make clean, to purify) in accordance with Catholic teaching is a place or condition of temporal punishment for those who, departing this life in God's grace, are, not entirely free from venial faults, or have not fully paid the satisfaction due to their transgressions.

Further than this the definitions of the Church do not go, but the tradition of the Fathers and the Schoolmen must be consulted to explain the teachings of the councils, and to make clear the belief and the practices of the faithful.

The whole penitential system of the Church testifies that the voluntary assumption of penitential works has always been part of true repentance and the Council of Trent (Sess. XIV, can. xi) reminds the faithful that God does not always remit the whole punishment due to sin together with the guilt. God requires satisfaction, and will punish sin, and this doctrine involves as its necessary consequence a belief that the sinner failing to do penance in this life may be punished in another world, and so not be cast off eternally from God.

http://www.newadvent.org/cathen/12575a.htm (CATHOLIC ENCYCLOPEDIA)

And now from Augustine:

"For our part, we recognize that even in this life some punishments are purgatorial,--not, indeed, to those whose life is none the better, but rather the worse for them, but to those who are constrained by them to amend their life. All other punishments, whether temporal or eternal, inflicted as they are on every one by divine providence, are sent either on account of past sins, or of sins presently allowed in the life, or to exercise and reveal a man's graces. They may be inflicted by the instrumentality of bad men and angels as well as of the good. For even if any one suffers some hurt through another's wickedness or mistake, the man indeed sins whose ignorance or injustice does the harm; but God, who by His just though hidden judgment permits it to be done, sins not. But temporary punishments are suffered by some in this life only, by others after death, by others both now and then; but all of them before that last and strictest judgment. But of those who suffer temporary punishments after death, all are not doomed to those everlasting pains which are to follow that judgment; for to some, as we have already said, what is not remitted in this world is remitted in the next, that is, they are not punished with the eternal punishment.of the world to come."
Augustine,City of God,21:13(A.D. 426),in NPNF1,II:464

http://www.cin.org/users/jgallegos/purg.htm

Purgatory is a real place with real suffering. Don't let anyone deceive you from thinking otherwise.
DHK

 

[D28guy]

DHK,

"Purgatory is a real place with real suffering. Don't let anyone deceive you from thinking otherwise.

Can I assume you meant to post something like...

"Purgatory, in the Catholic world, is presented as a real place with real suffering. Don't let anyone deceive you from thinking otherwise."?

Mike

 

[BobRyan]

The Catechism states

1031: "The Church formulated her doctrine of faith on Purgatory especially at the Councils of Florence and Trent"

Council of Florence (1438-1443):
"If they have died repentant for their sins and having love of God, but have not made satisfaction for things they have done or omitted by fruits worthy of penance, then their souls, after death, are cleansed by the punishment of Purgatory...the suffrages of the faithful still living are efficacious in bringing them relief from such punishment, namely the Sacrifice of the Mass, prayers and almsgiving and other works of piety which, in accordance with
the designation of the Church, are customarily offered by the faithful for each other." 12

The Catechism states

1032: "This teaching is also based on the practice of prayer for the dead..."

Vatican II documents state:
</font><blockquote>quote:</font><hr />

"The doctrine of purgatory clearly demonstrates that even when the guilt of sin has been taken away, punishment for it or the consequences of it may remain to be expiated or cleansed. They often are. In fact, in purgatory the souls of those who died in the charity of God and truly repentant, but who had not made satisfaction with adequate penance for their sins and omissions are cleansed after death with punishments designed to purge away their debt"
(Vatican II documents, Page 75).

The Revised and Updated Edition of the Catholic Encyclopedia explains:

"The souls of those who have died in the state of grace suffer for a time a purging that prepares them to enter heaven...It is an intermediate state in which the departed souls can atone for unforgiven sins before receiving their final reward."

Catholic Encyclopedia. Refers to Purgatory as

"the condition or state for those who have not totally alienated themselves from God by their sins, but who are temporarily and partially alienated from God while their love is made perfect and they give satisfaction for their sins."

</font>[/QUOTE]The Faith Explained
Catholic Commentary on the Baltimore Catechism post Vatican II

"It is evident that no one can know 'How Long' Purgatory LASTS for any individual
soul. I have put "How Long" in quotes because, while there is DURATION beyond
the grave, there is no "time" as we know it;..However whether we measure purgatory by DURATION or by INTENSITY the fact remains that a soul in Purgatory can NOT lessen its OWN sufferings. But WE the LIVING can "help that soul" by the mercy of God and the frequency of our remembrance." pg 181

"The moment the soul leaves the body it is exposed to the full power of God's 'Pull'
upon the soul. Crazed with hunger for God the soul beats ITSELF against the barriers of its OWN remaining IMPERFECTIONS UNTIL FINALLY it is purged" Pg 180

Indulgence "The remission granted by the church of the temporal punishment due to sin ALREADY forgiven" TFE - 469

"This was effected through the TRANSFER to the repentant sinner of the satisfactory VALUE of the martyr’s suffering..That is the origin of the system of MEASURING indulgences which the Church uses to the present day." pg 471

"An indulgence of 300 days, for example, does not mean three hundred days less
in Purgatory. It means that when a 300 day indulgence is granted it will remit as
much of the TEMPORAL punishment DUE to sin as would be remitted IF the
person did 300 days TEMPORAL public penance according to the discipline of the ancient Church". pg 471.

"Examples of such penance were wearing rough sackcloth with ashes sprinkled on the head, fasting, scourging one's body, retiring to a monastery, kneeling at the Church door or wandering as a beggar through the countryside" pg 471.

"Thus if I devoutly say 'My Jesus, Mercy!" a HUNDRED times during the day, then a HUNDRED times I GAIN an indulgence of THREE HUNDRED days." Pg 475

"Because Jesus is God, everything He did and suffered was of infinite value. By His
life and death He established an inexhaustible store of satisfactory merit. To this has been added the satisfaction of the saints which were beyond their own needs" Pg 472

"If we were to gain a fully a plenary indulgence and were to die immediately afterwards we would be with God in heaven immediately, without any need for ATONEMENT in Purgatory. IN PRACTICE, we SELDOM can be CERTAIN that we have gained a plenary Indulgence in its FULLNESS. (to really gain it) means that we have true sorrow for ALL venial sins as well as mortal AND that we be resolved to avoid ALL deliberate venial sins, AS WELL as mortal in the future. It is not often that we can be confident that our renunciation of sin is so ALL-embracing." p473

"It scarcely needs emphasizing that another condition for gaining an indulgence is that we carry out exactly, according to the time, place and manner prescribed, ALL the requirements which the Church lays down for the gaining of any particular indulgence" P 474

"It should be observed that we CANNOT apply the indulgences which we gain to ANY other LIVING persons. IN this matter each of us has to WORK OFF HIS OWN DEBT. However, we CAN APPLY most indulgences to the souls in Purgatory. In fact ALL the indulgences granted by the Holy Father, unless the contrary is expressly stated, MAY be applied to the suffering souls (in Purgatory" P 477

"SINCE the Church has DIRECT AUTHORITY over her living members, the indulgences which we gain FOR OURSELVES are ABSOLUTELY CERTAIN... The Church however does NOT have direct authority over the souls in Purgatory. Indulgences for THEM are offered by way of suffrage - a petition to God begging Him to apply the indulgence to a particular soul...Whether or NOT the indulgence is APPLIED to the soul rests with the mercy of God. We can HOPE that the specified soul will receive the indulgence which we have gained for him; but since we can not know for CERTAIN, the Church allows us to offer more than ONE PLENARY indulgence fo the same departed soul" P477

"An example of a plenary indulgence which may be gained many times is the one for ALL Soul's Day. For every visit made to a church on that day, with the Our Father, Hail Mary, and Glory be to Father recited SIX times for the intentions of the Pope, we may gain a plenary indulgence for the SUFFERING souls". Pg 475

 

[DHK]

Isn't it interesting how modern Catholic e-pologists try to water this doctrine down making more palatable to the evangelical saying such things as:
It isn't a real place.
It is a place where purging takes place.
But purgiing takes place in the mind. It is a state of mind, etc.
They emphasize that it isn't a real place.
In effect, they deny their own faith.
DHK

 

[BobRyan]

Yes I am struck by the VAST DIFFERENCE between the spin that the pro-RC view "would have us" believe about Purgatory vs what THEIR OWN SOURCES actually say about it!

IT is almost as if they are saying "HERE is what we WISH our own church said about Purgatory - without also saying all the OTHER things they admit to about torment, punishment, suffering in Purgatory".

How sad that they feel bound to a man-made doctrine that they seem to confess - they would prefer not to accept.

In Christ,

Bob

 

[Living_stone]

So, ultimately, what this comes down to is that I can pray for my wife today, but never mention her in my prayers if she dies tomorrow? Is that what you believe?

Why didn't New Testament make any exception for Mary, so-called Holy Mother?

Because we're not supposed to worship her. And neither Catholics nor Orthodox do. Get that through your head.

 

[BobRyan]

The RCC FORBIDS you to pray TO your wife today. But it WILL allow you to pray TO her once she is among the dead.

BTW "Making stuff up" about her being tormented in death - does not help her in death. Why not just stick with "the Bible" as the trustworthy Word of God on that point?

 

[Matt Black]

Correction: the Catholic Church forbids you from praying to your wife today or after she's dead. They do however permit you to ask her to pray for you both today and after she's dead.

 

[D28guy]

Matt Black,

"Correction: the Catholic Church forbids you from praying to your wife today or after she's dead. They do however permit you to ask her to pray for you both today and after she's dead."

Really.

They permit their people to ask those who have passed on to pray for them, and thats it.

And you actually believe that, Matt?

This is a perfect example of what both Bob Ryan and DHK posted just a few posts ago at the end of the previous page. About the differance between what the Catholic Church actually teaches and practices, and what pro-Catholic apologetic *spin-meisters* SAY that the Catholic Church teaches and practices.

Here is an example of what Catholic apologists say is simply, (wink) "we just permit people to ask those who have passed on to pray for us. Nothing more.(wink wink)...

"Enraptured by the splendor of your heavenly beauty and impelled by the anxieties of the world, we cast ourselves into your arms, Oh Immaculate Mother of Jesus and our Mother....we adore and praise the peerless richness of the sublime gifts with which God has filled you above every other mere creature, from the moment of conception until the day on which after your assumption into heaven, He crowned you Queen of the Universe. Oh crystal fountain of
faith, bathe our hearts with your heavenly perfume. Oh Conqueress of evil and death, inspire in us a deep horror of sin which makes the soul detestable to God and the slave of hell. Oh well-beloved of God, hear the ardent cries which rise up from every heart in this year dedicated to you. Then tenderly, Oh Mary, cover our aching wound; convert the wicked, dry the tears of the afflicted and the oppressed. Comfort the poor and humble. Quench hatred,
sweeten harshness, safeguard the flower of purity and protect the Holy Church. In your name resounding harmoniously in heaven, may they recognize that all are brothers...Receive, Oh sweet Mother our humble supplications and above all, obtain for us that on that day, happy with you, we may repeat before your throne that hymn which is sung today around your altars. You are beautiful Oh Mary. You are Glory Oh Mary. You are the joy, you are the Honor of
our people." – Pope Pius XII, celebration of the Marian Year in Rome, 1950"

But they are...supposedly...simply permiting Catholics to "ask Mary to pray for them", just like when I say to a friend..."Could you pray for my wife. She cant seem to kick this bad cold she has. Thanks, brother"

Right.

"There is a sucker born every minute"

P.T. Barnum.

Sadly,

Mike

 

[D28guy]

Living Stone,

"So, ultimately, what this comes down to is that I can pray for my wife today, but never mention her in my prayers if she dies tomorrow? Is that what you believe?...Because we're not supposed to worship her. And neither Catholics nor Orthodox do. Get that through your head."

"Enraptured by the splendor of your heavenly beauty and impelled by the anxieties of the world, we cast ourselves into your arms, Oh Immaculate Mother of Jesus and our Mother....we adore and praise the peerless richness of the sublime gifts with which God has filled you above every other mere creature, from the moment of conception until the day on which after your assumption into heaven, He crowned you Queen of the Universe. Oh crystal fountain of
faith, bathe our hearts with your heavenly perfume. Oh Conqueress of evil and death, inspire in us a deep horror of sin which makes the soul detestable to God and the slave of hell. Oh well-beloved of God, hear the ardent cries which rise up from every heart in this year dedicated to you. Then tenderly, Oh Mary, cover our aching wound; convert the wicked, dry the tears of the afflicted and the oppressed. Comfort the poor and humble. Quench hatred,
sweeten harshness, safeguard the flower of purity and protect the Holy Church. In your name resounding harmoniously in heaven, may they recognize that all are brothers...Receive, Oh sweet Mother our humble supplications and above all, obtain for us that on that day, happy with you, we may repeat before your throne that hymn which is sung today around your altars. You are beautiful Oh Mary. You are Glory Oh Mary. You are the joy, you are the Honor of
our people." – Pope Pius XII, celebration of the Marian Year in Rome, 1950"

But Catholics dont worship her, right?

Mike

 

[Living_stone]

Right. And neither do the Orthodox.

You need to understand when flowery language is just that - flowery language.

Here, for example, is Elizabeth Barrett Browning's "Sonnet 43" from her Sonnets from the Portuguese. It was written privately to her husband, Robert Browning, and was not intended for publication till Mr. Browning, impressed with the work of his "Little Portugee" insisted that she publish her poetry. Any sane person, reading this passionate love poetry, recognizes that he is reading... well, passionate love poetry and does not demand that Mrs. Browning write with syllogistic and systematic accuracy acceptable to a panel of theologians. But let us, for the moment, subject poor Elizabeth's work to the same kind of scrutiny that poor St. Augustine's or Thomas of Villanova's or Louis de Montfort's equally passionate poetry receives from critics of the Catholic faith. Let us, with their gimlet eye for the heretical, highlight the damning passages which clearly prove the sinister theological errors informing...er... Browningism:

</font><blockquote>quote:</font><hr /> How do I love thee? Let me count the ways.
I love thee to the depth and breadth and height
My soul can reach1, when feeling out of sight
For the ends of Being and Ideal Grace2.
I love thee to the level of everyday's
Most quiet need, by sun and candle-light.
I love thee freely, as men strive for Right;
I love thee purely3, as they turn from Praise.
I love thee with the passion put to use
In my old griefs, and with my childhood's faith.
I love thee with a love I seemed to lose
With my lost saints,--I love thee with the breath,
Smiles, tears, of all my life!--and, if God choose,
I shall but love thee better after death4.

1 Here we see the shockingly idolatrous core of Browningism. Mrs. Browning's real religion is nothing less the worship and adoration of a mere creature: Robert Browning. Clearly this constitutes a complete rejection of the Bible-believer's doctrine of God.

2 Ascribes to a mere creature (Robert Browning) the ultimate Perfections reserved only to God himself: the "ends of Being and Ideal Grace".

3 This passage is a clear expression of the Pelagian (or at least semi-Pelagian) underpinnings of Browningism. It constitutes a clear denial of the biblical doctrine of Original Sin since no fallen human being can love "purely" or "freely" without the aid of divine grace. Obviously, Mrs. Browning rejects the entire biblical doctrine of justification by grace.

4 Bible-based Christianity rejects the practice of necromancy. Mrs. Browning is advocating the practice of spiritism and witchcraft.

Worse still, Browning is not the only one. Here is Shakespeare's "Sonnet XVIII", another damning piece of evidence showing that many poets seem to be riddled with gross theological errors:

Shall I compare thee to a summer's day?
Thou art more lovely and more temperate:
Rough winds do shake the darling buds of May,
And summer's lease hath all too short a date:
Sometime too hot the eye of heaven1 shines,
And often is his gold complexion dimm'd;
And every fair from fair sometime declines,
By chance, or nature's changing course untrimm'd2;
But thy eternal summer shall not fade,
Nor lose possession of that fair thou ow'st,
Nor shall death brag thou wander'st in his shade,
When in eternal lines to time thou grow'st;
So long as men can breathe, or eyes can see,
So long lives this, and this gives life to thee. 3

1 Commits crude pagan error of identifying the sun with the eye of God.

2 Denies God's sovereign and providential rule of nature and ascribes alterations in nature to either "chance" or nature itself.

3 The last six lines of the sonnet constitute the idolatrous, heretical and blasphemous claim that eternal life is given to the recipient of this sonnet, not through trust in Jesus Christ, but through Shakespeare's own poetry.

And so on and so forth.</font>[/QUOTE]Source.

 

[Living_stone]

From your highlights...

"Enraptured by the splendor of your heavenly beauty and impelled by the anxieties of the world, we cast ourselves into your arms

Flowery, but not heretical.

we adore and praise the peerless richness of the sublime gifts with which God has filled you above every other mere creature,

Directed at GOD

your assumption into heaven

Very common Christian belief until the 17th century and later. Has historical precident, and biblical support.

He crowned you Queen of the Universe.

Jesus is the Davidic King of Kings. Mary, as his mother, is the queen. That's all this says. By selecting her to be the Mother of his Son, God elevated her defacto. She wasn't just a birthing tube to be discarded. God doesn't work that way.

Oh crystal fountain of
faith, bathe our hearts with your heavenly perfume.

Too flowery even for me, but not heretical.

Oh Conqueress of evil and death

A title we will all bear some day. She was the first Chrisian, and in a special way. She is the new eve, the gate throughwhich Christ became man.

inspire in us a deep horror of sin which makes the soul detestable to God and the slave of hell.

Very pious thought. Nothing heretical at all. Inspire us not to sin. w00t.

Then tenderly, Oh Mary, cover our aching wound; convert the wicked, dry the tears of the afflicted and the oppressed.

Flowery, but not heretical.

Comfort the poor and humble. Quench hatred, sweeten harshness, safeguard the flower of purity and protect the Holy Church.

See previous.

You are beautiful Oh Mary. You are Glory Oh Mary. You are the joy, you are the Honor of
our people.

As a pure creature, Mary symbolizes the perfection to which we are all called. Her humble heart said "be it done unto me according to they will", even when she knew what pain would accompany that will.

If we could all be like that, we'd all be better Christians.

 

[Matt Black]

Originally posted by Living_stone:
Right. And neither do the Orthodox.

You need to understand when flowery language is just that - flowery language.

</font><blockquote>quote:</font><hr />Here, for example, is Elizabeth Barrett Browning's "Sonnet 43" from her Sonnets from the Portuguese. It was written privately to her husband, Robert Browning, and was not intended for publication till Mr. Browning, impressed with the work of his "Little Portugee" insisted that she publish her poetry. Any sane person, reading this passionate love poetry, recognizes that he is reading... well, passionate love poetry and does not demand that Mrs. Browning write with syllogistic and systematic accuracy acceptable to a panel of theologians. But let us, for the moment, subject poor Elizabeth's work to the same kind of scrutiny that poor St. Augustine's or Thomas of Villanova's or Louis de Montfort's equally passionate poetry receives from critics of the Catholic faith. Let us, with their gimlet eye for the heretical, highlight the damning passages which clearly prove the sinister theological errors informing...er... Browningism:

</font><blockquote>quote:</font><hr /> How do I love thee? Let me count the ways.
I love thee to the depth and breadth and height
My soul can reach1, when feeling out of sight
For the ends of Being and Ideal Grace2.
I love thee to the level of everyday's
Most quiet need, by sun and candle-light.
I love thee freely, as men strive for Right;
I love thee purely3, as they turn from Praise.
I love thee with the passion put to use
In my old griefs, and with my childhood's faith.
I love thee with a love I seemed to lose
With my lost saints,--I love thee with the breath,
Smiles, tears, of all my life!--and, if God choose,
I shall but love thee better after death4.

1 Here we see the shockingly idolatrous core of Browningism. Mrs. Browning's real religion is nothing less the worship and adoration of a mere creature: Robert Browning. Clearly this constitutes a complete rejection of the Bible-believer's doctrine of God.

2 Ascribes to a mere creature (Robert Browning) the ultimate Perfections reserved only to God himself: the "ends of Being and Ideal Grace".

3 This passage is a clear expression of the Pelagian (or at least semi-Pelagian) underpinnings of Browningism. It constitutes a clear denial of the biblical doctrine of Original Sin since no fallen human being can love "purely" or "freely" without the aid of divine grace. Obviously, Mrs. Browning rejects the entire biblical doctrine of justification by grace.

4 Bible-based Christianity rejects the practice of necromancy. Mrs. Browning is advocating the practice of spiritism and witchcraft.

Worse still, Browning is not the only one. Here is Shakespeare's "Sonnet XVIII", another damning piece of evidence showing that many poets seem to be riddled with gross theological errors:

Shall I compare thee to a summer's day?
Thou art more lovely and more temperate:
Rough winds do shake the darling buds of May,
And summer's lease hath all too short a date:
Sometime too hot the eye of heaven1 shines,
And often is his gold complexion dimm'd;
And every fair from fair sometime declines,
By chance, or nature's changing course untrimm'd2;
But thy eternal summer shall not fade,
Nor lose possession of that fair thou ow'st,
Nor shall death brag thou wander'st in his shade,
When in eternal lines to time thou grow'st;
So long as men can breathe, or eyes can see,
So long lives this, and this gives life to thee. 3

1 Commits crude pagan error of identifying the sun with the eye of God.

2 Denies God's sovereign and providential rule of nature and ascribes alterations in nature to either "chance" or nature itself.

3 The last six lines of the sonnet constitute the idolatrous, heretical and blasphemous claim that eternal life is given to the recipient of this sonnet, not through trust in Jesus Christ, but through Shakespeare's own poetry.

And so on and so forth.</font>[/QUOTE]Source. </font>[/QUOTE]

Priceless!

I think that answers your point, Mike.

 

[D28guy]

You know, I feel like Bob Ryan, DHK, myself and all the others are like Bill O'Reilly and his TV program.

You know..."the SPIN stops HERE!"

The old and worn out "Its just flowery language!"(wink) nonsense.

It doesnt fool us and it doesnt fool God.

To God it is...

Goddess worship.

Idolatry.

Blasphemy.

Wickedness.

This Maryolatry comes straight from the pit of Hell.

It simply numbs the mind the lenghths that Catholic apologists will go to in order to defend the indefensible.

Mike

 

[Kamoroso]

Heb 4:14-16 14 Seeing then that we have a great high priest, that is passed into the heavens, Jesus the Son of God, let us hold fast our profession.
15 For we have not an high priest which cannot be touched with the feeling of our infirmities; but was in all points tempted like as we are, yet without sin.
16 Let us therefore come boldly unto the throne of grace, that we may obtain mercy, and find grace to help in time of need.


Why would anybody pray to anybody else, to pray to God for them? Jesus Christ came to do away with all middle men. We all have direct access to the very throne of God. This gift was purchased for us by the precious blood of the Lamb of God. To place a human being between God and humanity, is an insult to the infinite sacrifice made on our behalf by God.

God has established access directly to His throne through His Son Jesus Christ. All are invited to the Father, through the Son. Anyone who would attempt to stand between God and the people which He has purchased with His own blood, is manifesting the spirit of anti-christ. This is the spirit of the church of Rome. She has set herself up betwenn man and God through her false doctrines, and false priesthood.

Rev 18:4-5 4 And I heard another voice from heaven, saying, Come out of her, my people, that ye be not partakers of her sins, and that ye receive not of her plagues.
5 For her sins have reached unto heaven, and God hath remembered her iniquities.

Bye for now. Y. b. in C. Keith

 

[Living_stone]

You know..."the SPIN stops HERE!"

Cause you know Fox NEVER puts a spin on ANYTHIGN...EVER!

This Maryolatry comes straight from the pit of Hell.

Yes. As does all Idolatry. Which is why Catholics and Orthodox don't practice it.

You say "Catholic" all the time...why only them? Let's at least be accurate!

It simply numbs the mind the lenghths that Catholic apologists will go to in order to defend the indefensible.

"We don't worship her" is not a terribly large length to go to.

It simply numbs my mind how much more you think you know about the Catholic/Orthodox faith than a practicing member of that faith.

Why would anybody pray to anybody else, to pray to God for them?

Riddle me this: Why would Paul ask people to pray for him when he could "just go dirctly to god"?

 

[BobRyan]

"The first Problem" is that you are not supposed to communicate with the Dead - according to Scripture - and the RCC promotes praying to the dead. Those that 2Mac 12 calls "the DEAD" and those that 1Thess 4 calls "The DEAD in Christ"

That's a problem.

The second problem is that when the RCC "makes stuff up" like the torments and punishments of purgatory -- then invents "another man-made doctrine" to solve the problem of purgatory - they are simply adding man-made games to man-made doctrines.

In Christ,

Bob

 

[BobRyan]

EVEN the RCC admits that IF the non-Catholic view of the Gospel is correct and it is true that the RCC priest can not confect God - then they practice idolatry --

http://www.baptistboard.com/ubb/ultimatebb.php/topic/28/3755/22.html#000329

 

[Living_stone]

"The first Problem" is that you are not supposed to communicate with the Dead - according to Scripture - and the RCC promotes praying to the dead. Those that 2Mac 12 calls "the DEAD" and those that 1Thess 4 calls "The DEAD in Christ"

2 Macc isn't about communicating with the dead. It's about praying for them.

But others are not "dead". They are living. Scripture is clear on that point, and that they can present our prayers to God. 2 Mac has nothing to do with that.

The second problem is that when the RCC "makes stuff up" like the torments and punishments of purgatory -- then invents "another man-made doctrine" to solve the problem of purgatory - they are simply adding man-made games to man-made doctrines.

The problem is when people start thinking they can interpret the bible better than Christ's Church, "the pillar and foundation of the truth".

Purgatory is a belief as old as Christianity. We can find evidence of it in the apostolic age, not ot mention the sacriptures.

 

[Eliyahu]

We can simply notice how wicked human beings are!
As Paul mentioned in ACTS 20:30

Also of your own selves shall men arise, speaking perverse things, to draw away disciples after them .

Even during the first generation of the Early church, there started the Apostasy. It is not surprising to notice the apostasy of Augustine.

As for Purgatory, I mentioned this at the other Thread titled : Purgatory

I never admit Purgatory. However, let's assume that Purgatory exist.
The Only way to get out of Purgatory would be to rely on the Blood and His Death at the Cross. No human prayer and / or alms-giving will be sufficient to the satisfaction of God. Even our own efforts would not be sufficient for God's Standard. How much insufficient the other persons' prayers and alms-giving would be ?

If anyone can get out of Purgatory by dint of Blood and Death of Jesus Christ, remembering His blood and His crucifixion, then why didn't he do it while he was alive and go to the heaven directly?

Look at 1 John 3:2

Beloved, now are we the sons of God, and it doth not yet appear what we shall be: but we know that, when he shall appear, we shall be like him; for we shall see him as he is .


Bible is not that complicated as the Purgatory theory: Suddenly we become like Jesus Christ when we meet Him. Does it say that we will come out of the Purgatory?