Hi Roger
Not a Catholic here but will try to put across the Catholic POV:-
Originally posted by C4K:
Simple reasoning, though in error Sue.
Jesus planted his Church and gave full authority to Peter as the founder of that church. His successors stand in Christ's place on earth.
Check.
At baptism one is made a part of Christ's church, therefore a part of His kingdom.
There's a bit more to it than that:
from the Catechism
Holy Baptism is the basis of the whole Christian life, the gateway to life in the Spirit (vitae spiritualis ianua),4 and the door which gives access to the other sacraments. Through Baptism we are freed from sin and reborn as sons of God; we become members of Christ, are incorporated into the Church and made sharers in her mission: "Baptism is the sacrament of regeneration through water in the word."5
The page from which I've quoted has numerous Scripture references - Catholics for example take Mark 16:16, I Peter 3:21 and Acts 2:38-39 very literally. They also take John 3:5 as being a reference to baptism. Taken together (according to their interpretation of Scripture), these verses mean to them that there are two requirements for salvation: belief (faith)
and baptism. Although an infant cannot believe, they would say that that infant can and therefore should be baptised, thus fulfilling at least one of those two 'soteriological legs'.
Further, since, according to Catholic soteriology, baptism does result in (initial) salvation and since all saved Christians are part of the Body of Christ, the Church, baptism therefore also incorporates you into that Church.
Back to Roger:
<snip>
You keep yourself as a part of the body of Christ by physically eating His body and drinking His blood on a regular basis. Oh, thats right, now you only have to eat His body. You no longer need to drink His blood.
Er...not quite. Again,
from the Catechism
1406 Jesus said: "I am the living bread that came down from heaven; if any one eats of this bread, he will live for ever; . . . he who eats my flesh and drinks my blood has eternal life and . . . abides in me, and I in him" (Jn 6:51, 54, 56).
1407 The Eucharist is the heart and the summit of the Church's life, for in it Christ associates his Church and all her members with his sacrifice of praise and thanksgiving offered once for all on the cross to his Father; by this sacrifice he pours out the graces of salvation on his Body which is the Church.
1408 The Eucharistic celebration always includes: the proclamation of the Word of God; thanksgiving to God the Father for all his benefits, above all the gift of his Son; the consecration of bread and wine; and participation in the liturgical banquet by receiving the Lord's body and blood. These elements constitute one single act of worship.
1409 The Eucharist is the memorial of Christ's Passover, that is, of the work of salvation accomplished by the life, death, and resurrection of Christ, a work made present by the liturgical action.
1410 It is Christ himself, the eternal high priest of the New Covenant who, acting through the ministry of the priests, offers the Eucharistic sacrifice. And it is the same Christ, really present under the species of bread and wine, who is the offering of the Eucharistic sacrifice.
By participating in communion, Catholics believe not so much that they are 'keeping themselves as part of the Body' but actually meeting the risen Christ and, as a result, receiving an infusion of sanctifying grace. Most of the Magisterial Reformation Churches and the Orthodox believe similarly, though they would not try to be so precise about defining the Real Presence as the Catholics.
Now, if one does not properly follow the instructions and traditions of the church he loses that protection and is bound for hell (since limbo no longer exists) or pergatory depending on our "bad" one has been.
Again, not quite correct. Hell is for the unsaved, Purgatory for the saved. Catholic soteriology has a pretty optimistic view concerning the likely population levels of the former - see
Lumen Gentium* for example. The idea behind Purgatory is quite simple: although the saved are saved by faith and have righteousness imputed to them, they remain sinners in need of sanctification and transformation into the image of Christ by the Holy Spirit. For some that is accomplished in their lifetime, for others that has to continue after death; Catholics, unlike most evangelicals do not believe that we automatically shed our sinful natures at the moment of death but view that as a 'process' rather than a 'crisis'.
By confessing your sins to a priests you can have your slate temporarily wiped clean, as long as you do the penance he gives you.
Only technically with regard to mortal sins; venial sins are covered by the penitential rite at the start of each Mass. Mortal sins, it is to be remembered are actions amounting to a knowing repudiatory breach of one's relationship with God. On the whole issue of why priests are regarded as having authority to forgive sins, again Catholics take seriously and literally Christ's commission to the Apostles in Matt 18:18 and John 20:21-23
If you REALLY mess up and die without sorting things out you are okay if a priests comes and performs a ritual over you.
Not necessarily; the anointing (based, incidentally on James 5:15-17) is aspirational and is 'done' as much to those who are regarded as 'good Catholics' as it is to those who are regarded as 'bad boys'.
If that fails you can still get to heaven if enough good Catholics pray for you after you die.
Only if you are already saved: Heaven is then the inevitable destination for you; the only difference prayers can make is to shorten the time you spend
en route in Purgatory.
If that fails and folks are willing to buy mass cards for you you may still make your way to heaven one day.
Same as above; not quite the Indulgences they were in the days of Luther, though
Failing that, you may actually end up in hell, depending on whether or not you believe in it.
Only if you die in an unrepentant state of mortal sin.
*Incidentally, Lumen Gentium paras 14 & 15 puts the
extra ecclesiam nulla salus to which you and
Domine Iesus refer into its proper context. Further, both LG and DI accept that in what they call 'other ecclesial communities', salvation may be found:
17. Therefore, there exists a single Church of Christ, which subsists in the Catholic Church, governed by the Successor of Peter and by the Bishops in communion with him.58 The Churches which, while not existing in perfect communion with the Catholic Church, remain united to her by means of the closest bonds, that is, by apostolic succession and a valid Eucharist, are true particular Churches.59 Therefore, the Church of Christ is present and operative also in these Churches, even though they lack full communion with the Catholic Church, since they do not accept the Catholic doctrine of the Primacy, which, according to the will of God, the Bishop of Rome objectively has and exercises over the entire Church.60
On the other hand, the ecclesial communities which have not preserved the valid Episcopate and the genuine and integral substance of the Eucharistic mystery,61 are not Churches in the proper sense; however, those who are baptized in these communities are, by Baptism, incorporated in Christ and thus are in a certain communion, albeit imperfect, with the Church.62 Baptism in fact tends per se toward the full development of life in Christ, through the integral profession of faith, the Eucharist, and full communion in the Church.63
“The Christian faithful are therefore not permitted to imagine that the Church of Christ is nothing more than a collection — divided, yet in some way one — of Churches and ecclesial communities; nor are they free to hold that today the Church of Christ nowhere really exists, and must be considered only as a goal which all Churches and ecclesial communities must strive to reach”.64 In fact, “the elements of this already-given Church exist, joined together in their fullness in the Catholic Church and, without this fullness, in the other communities”.65 “Therefore, these separated Churches and communities as such, though we believe they suffer from defects, have by no means been deprived of significance and importance in the mystery of salvation. For the spirit of Christ has not refrained from using them as means of salvation which derive their efficacy from the very fullness of grace and truth entrusted to the Catholic Church”.66
The lack of unity among Christians is certainly a wound for the Church; not in the sense that she is deprived of her unity, but “in that it hinders the complete fulfilment of her universality in history”.67
-from DI. It has also to be remembered that DI is directed to Catholics and against the universalism and religious relativism prevalent in some progressive Catholic quarters (Baptists have the same sorts of problems with liberal Baptists) and was written by +++Ratzinger when he was Cardinal Rottweiller the theologian the heretic-hunter and before he became Papa Ratzi the pastor.
[ March 27, 2006, 11:09 AM: Message edited by: Matt Black ]
