Well said, tinytim.:thumbs:tinytim said:
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Roman Road and Sinner's Prayer
- Thread starter Tom Butler
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tinytim said:
Where's the argument there ? I say that is true, preach the gospel for people to hear it then believe. I have not disagreed to that.
What I disagreed with is that the result of hearing is the eternal salvation of the hearer.
No, sir, it doesn't.
Before I quote you Scripture, let me first put in an illustration.
Suppose you had an uncle you've never met and whom you never knew about, but who knows you, and your uncle died, and left you a rich estate so that you never have to work for your keep anymore the rest of your life.
You'd call that good news, right ? Gospel.
You didn't know your uncle, you didn't know yet you were rich, you didn't know you had an uncle who knew you and loved you enough to name you his heir, yet he did, and that really happened to you.
Now here's the lawyer telling you what happened, and there you are sitting in the squalor of poverty, not knowing where the next meal is coming from, yet the good news is that you are in fact a rich man.
Tell me, did the good news happen because you believed the newsbearer ? Or did the good news happen despite the newsbearer and your reaction to it.
Because the former question is exactly how you and yours interpret the gospel. You give it a power that Scripture says belongs only to Christ, the eternal salvation of sinners, and to make things worse, that salvation cannot happen unless you, the preacher, declare the good news first.
Now, which one is heresy ?
My belief that salvation is OF THE LORD, which means He dispenses mercy to whom He wants to be merciful, and that salvation is a FINISHED fact for the elect child of God, which the Bible affirms in many places, or your doctrine that says unless the sinner first believed, the blood of Christ shed on the cross is of no value at all, which the Bible condemns as works.
The gospel he preached, according to Paul, is that Christ came to save sinners (that's the good news) of which he was chief. Through the gospel, Paul says, life and immortality is brought to light.
You want the scripture ? Here it is, verse by verse.
Paul in the Bible at 2 Timothy 1:8-10 said:
Who saved them ? The preacher ? The preaching ? Themselves through their belief in Scriptures, or the gospel ? The gospel ? God saved them !
I used to wonder, when I was first converted, how Roman Catholic priests still believe that the eucharist turns to the actual body and blood of Christ when they have the Bible right there before them staring at them.
I wonder now how people who call themselves Christians can still insist, in the face of Scripture, that believing the gospel, preaching the gospel, has anything at all to do with the eternal salvation of sinners.
What is made manifest ? The grace given to them in Christ Jesus before the world began !
I did not invent the doctrine that God's elect were recipients of grace from before the foundation of the world. Paul said so himself, and he had himself and Timothy as proof !
tinytim said:
How did I get saved ? Through no works of my own. The blood of Christ shed in time on that cross sealed my salvation, the blood of the Lamb of Glory shed in eternity past before the foundation of the world guaranteed my salvation the same way it guaranteed that of Enoch and Elijah before the cross. The finished work of Christ is what I hold on to.
The hand of God that wrote my name in the Lamb's Book of Life before the foundation of the world gave me assurance that no man is able to snatch me away from His love and purpose.
I stand on the Rock of Ages, not on the shifting sand of works that you seem to stand on.
I claim no glory for myself. Not my faith, which shifts and wavers, strong today, gone tomorrow. Not my belief, which can be caused to waver if I but take my eyes away for one infinitesimal second from the Author and Finisher of my faith, Christ Jesus the Lord.
All glory for my salvation belongs to my God, my King, my Lord, my Savior.
And if I die and find that I am after all not one of the elect, what can I say to the One who creates from nothing simply by His word ? That I deserve salvation because I believed ? Far be it. I am a dirty, rotten sinner, undeserving of the attention and love of the Creator of the Universe !
I can raise my hands hundreds of times everytime the invitation is given, tinytim, and come weeping at the altar and begging to be forgiven, and I can profess acceptance of Christ every Sunday, but if Christ does not accept me as His own, the Spirit will never witness to my spirit, that I am a child of God, as it does now.
I will always feel fidgety and unsure of my salvation, and will not learn to rest in the Lord, because my understanding of my salvation has my actions as its core, not the assurance that comes from the Spirit, which only a living soul, can feel.
Also, this is one of the main points I differ from you and yours.
You usurp the authority of God by declaring one hellbound and unsaved, and limit His power to quicken His own even at the last split second before death.
You tie up the mercy and salvation of the Lord with your requirements, and yet you and yours point to those who adhere to the Doctrine of Grace as the ones putting God in a box.
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You know, I've said this to you before, pinoybaptist, but this is a fellowship thread, not a debate thread. Why do you have to bring your anti-missions arguments on here? There are debates on Calvinism all the time on the debate threads. Why don't you stay there? You've never given any positive input here in this thread.
He certainly did! :thumbs:gekko said:
Mark Twain (or was it Samuel Clemens?) once said, "Everyone is always talking about the weather, but no one ever does anything about it!"
This forum of the BB is for fellowship for those who are actually doing something about the Gospel, not for criticizing evangelists, soul winners and missionaries, and not for telling why the Great Commission is supposedly not for today.
tinytim said:
Pathetic how you 'whosoevers' keep quoting these Scriptures, yet I am sure that you teach and insist that Bible interpretation should always be in context, and not out of context.
Examine these Scriptures in the light of my illustration and you will see that your supposition fails, while mine holds, that the gospel is good news that already happened, despite the preaching, despite the preacher, despite the hearer, and despite the hearer's belief or unbelief.
Where in these Scriptures does it say preaching the gospel and believing it results in the eternal salvation of sinners ?
First off, context.
The addressee are Roman Christians, children of God, both Jew and Gentile.
The subject, at this chapter, are the Jews. Which Jews ? All Jews ?
Apparently, no.
Because over at Romans 9, Paul clearly stated:
Paul in Romans Chapter 9 said:
But what of these true Israelites ? Well, the ending verses of Romans 9 indicate that they are still caught in the grip of ritualistic Judaism. And so Paul in the next paragraph of his letter, written as Chapter 10 v 1 in the Bible, speaks of his desire. His, not God's, because over at Acts, we read how many times Paul was told by the Spirit not to go to Jerusalem, illustrating what will happen to him, if he insists, through Agabus.
v. 2 Paul declares the theological condition of these true Israelites, those who are counted as children of the promise, that they possess a zeal for God, but not according to knowledge. And he goes on to discuss Christ being the end of the law, and that indeed Christ rose from the dead (which Jews deny even to this day), then one shall be saved from dead works and wrong doctrine.
But how will they know about this, these true children of God ? Why, somebody has to be sent, and so the Scriptures you quoted. But, where did Paul say that knowing these facts and believing these facts results in eternal salvation ?
Nowhere !
Like I said before, and say again, Paul, Peter, John, James, the writer of Hebrews, all of them were concerned about the glory of God among His children now, in this plane we call time.
To all of them, the eternal salvation of God's people, everywhere, is never a matter of concern, because it is FINISHED ! All of God's people are safe in Christ, redeemed by the blood of Christ, wherever, whenever, and however they will be born in time !
In God's own time, and in God's own way, each and everyone of these children of God will be quickened, regenerated, will have their spiritual eyes and ears opened.
Like I said, there is not one Scripture you can show that unarguably ties the preaching of the gospel and belief in the gospel to the eternal salvation of God's people.
Sarcasm will only show your frustration at the untenable position of your doctrine.
Hello?? Anyone there?
THIS IS NOT A DEBATE THREAD!!!
THIS IS NOT A DEBATE THREAD!!!
John of Japan said:You know, I've said this to you before, pinoybaptist, but this is a fellowship thread, not a debate thread. Why do you have to bring your anti-missions arguments on here? There are debates on Calvinism all the time on the debate threads. Why don't you stay there? You've never given any positive input here in this thread.
Oh, a fellowship forum is where we all hold hands and say amen, amen, and nothing but amen ?
[snipped]
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John of Japan said:
Helllllooooowwww ? Is that the admin ? You got a problem with me, [snipped], you go talk to the Admin.
We were enjoying the talk, till you [snipped] walked in.
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for the record pinyobap.
the title of this group of forums is "Fellowship"
you are debating. and we unknowingly retaliated because we want to preach to the lost. and you dont.
debate is not part of fellowship.
so could you so kindly please stop debating in the missions forum about how its not biblical to go and preach to the lost.
we understand that it is Christ who saves.
but all are lost until they believe. then they are saved. bottom line.
so please - if you are going to get up in arms at anybody - which you have displayed against JoJ. please dont post here.
it is very disheartening and not very encouraging.
God bless.
the title of this group of forums is "Fellowship"
you are debating. and we unknowingly retaliated because we want to preach to the lost. and you dont.
debate is not part of fellowship.
so could you so kindly please stop debating in the missions forum about how its not biblical to go and preach to the lost.
we understand that it is Christ who saves.
but all are lost until they believe. then they are saved. bottom line.
so please - if you are going to get up in arms at anybody - which you have displayed against JoJ. please dont post here.
it is very disheartening and not very encouraging.
God bless.
Hi, gekko.gekko said:
Happy to fellowship with you!
On the surface, things are very free here. Saturday night I was out with a co-worker giving out tracts and witnessing on the "Kaimono Koen" ("Shopping Park") downtown, and had no trouble.
There is persecution, though, when a Japanese trusts Christ as Savior. This country is openly very free, but there is great sociatal pressure against Christianity.
God bless!
From the Microsoft Bookshelf 98 dictionary:
de·bate (
dî-bât¹) verb
de·bat·ed
, de·bat·ing, de·bates verb, intransitive
1.
To consider something; deliberate.
2.
To engage in argument by discussing opposing points.
3.
To engage in a formal discussion or argument. See synonyms at discuss.
4.
Obsolete. To fight or quarrel.
verb
, transitive
1.
To deliberate on; consider.
2.
To dispute or argue about.
3.
To discuss or argue (a question, for example) formally.
4.
Obsolete. To fight or argue for or over.
noun
1.
A discussion involving opposing points; an argument.
2.
Deliberation; consideration: passed the motion with little debate.
3.
A formal contest of argumentation in which two opposing teams defend and attack a given proposition.
fel·low·ship (fèl¹o-shîp´) noun
4. Obsolete. Conflict; strife.
fel·low·ship (fèl¹o-shîp´) noun
1.
a. The condition of sharing similar interests, ideals, or experiences, as by reason of profession, religion, or nationality. b. The companionship of individuals in a congenial atmosphere and on equal terms.
2.
A close association of friends or equals sharing similar interests.
3.
Friendship; comradeship.
:laugh: :laugh: :thumbs:tinytim said:
gekko said:
Take a close and objective look, Gekko, and don't let friendship cloud your judgment.
I get a post from somebody in a confrontational manner with that red angry emoticon, I will react because I'm as much a man as John of Japan is.
And since we are far apart, right now, words are the only way to express that reaction.
I may have been carried away by the debates here, most of which were enjoyable, except for one who posted who questioned my salvation, and if that sourpuss had just pm'd me, or not put that angry emoticon, maybe I'd just have shut up and left.
It's a natural reaction, man.
You slap any man's face in private, even if he hasn't done nothing against you, he'll probably just turn away and avoid a fight.
You slap his face in public, even if he's clearly at fault, man, you got a fight in your hands.
tinytim said:
Up to this point, tinytim, despite our discussion, I hope we have maintained respect for each other as persons.
Now, where is this debate section, and where is the link ?
Or are you being sarcastic ?
I am serious... wait I'll get the thread
here it is...http://www.baptistboard.com/showthread.php?p=815813#post815813
I even quoted you.. I will treat you with respect. even though I strongly disagree with you.
oops I first gave you the wrong link
corrected it
here it is...http://www.baptistboard.com/showthread.php?p=815813#post815813
I even quoted you.. I will treat you with respect. even though I strongly disagree with you.
oops I first gave you the wrong link
corrected it
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tinytim said:
Thank you for saying that, although everytime someone says that to me, my antennaes go up.
Reminds me of the scenes in Cops.
You know, where the cop asks, "Is there something here I shouldn't be seeing" as he asks permission to search a suspect's car.
The suspect honestly says he's got weed under his seat.
Cop says: I appreciate your honesty, and will treat you with respect.
And proceeds to handcuff the suspect and read him his rights.
Truthfully, I had no desire to convert anyone, that is the Spirit's job, but the believer's is to 'contend for the faith once delivered to the saints'.
Also, the more I debate the more my beliefs get firmer.
Thank you for tactfully getting me out of the Baptist Board.
Now, we can hold hands again.:flower:
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