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Roman Soteriology Exposed and Condemned
- Thread starter The Biblicist
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It's all about faith. Faith that there is but one God in three persons the - the Father in heaven, the sacrificial Son, and the Holy Spirit for knowledge. We Catholics do not deny the truth of having faith and we have the faith that the Catholic Church is an integral part of Jesus's continuing ministry on this earth.
Faith is necessary. Just like a mouth is need to speak to a person.
But a mouth alone can curse/cuss, insult, slander and lie.
What redeems faith is Love, without love faith is the faith of demons.
Demons and Devils have faith, some even DO move mountains. And there are people who have faith in God, they KNOW God is honest, They KNOW God keeps his word and can be trusted, and yet they hate God.
Find me that one fellah in your congregation saved with "faith alone" who HATES God.
Not happening.
I have scripture that states Love is paramount, Goal of Christianity, even GOD IS LOVE.
God is Faith said no one ever.
God IS Love. Without Love there is not even a God to please.
How can Satan be the greatest Liar without knowing the truth?
There is only one thing Satan has absolutely none of which makes him Satan, is it faith? Oh no he believes, he has perfect faith in God. PERFECT in everything. Perfect wisdom. He walked with God and SINLESS. Satan does not love God.
Ezekiel 28
“You had the seal of perfection,
Full of wisdom and perfect in beauty.
13“You were in Eden, the garden of God;
Every precious stone was your covering:
The ruby, the topaz and the diamond;
The beryl, the onyx and the jasper;
The lapis lazuli, the turquoise and the emerald;
And the gold, the workmanship of your settings and sockets,
Was in you.
On the day that you were created
They were prepared.
14“You were the anointed cherub who covers,
And I placed you there.
You were on the holy mountain of God;
You walked in the midst of the stones of fire.
15“You were blameless in your ways
From the day you were created
Until unrighteousness was found in you.
16“By the abundance of your trade
You were internally filled with violence,
And you sinned;
Therefore I have cast you as profane
From the mountain of God.
And I have destroyed you, O covering cherub,
From the midst of the stones of fire.
17“Your heart was lifted up because of your beauty;
You corrupted your wisdom by reason of your splendor.
I cast you to the ground;
I put you before kings,
That they may see you.
18“By the multitude of your iniquities,
In the unrighteousness of your trade
You profaned your sanctuaries.
Therefore I have brought fire from the midst of you;
It has consumed you,
And I have turned you to ashes on the earth
In the eyes of all who see you.
19“All who know you among the peoples
Are appalled at you;
You have become terrified
And you will cease to be forever.”’”
That the Church of Rome has an orthodox formulation of the Trinity I do not deny. However, it is not what people say but what they do that matters:
O Mother of Perpetual Help, thou art the dispenser of every grace that God grants us in our misery; it is for this cause that He hath made thee so powerful, so rich, so kind, that thou mightest assist us in our miseries. Thou art the advocate of the most wretched and abandoned sinners, if they but come unto thee; come once more to my assistance, for I commend myself to thee. In thy hands I place my eternal salvation; to thee I entrust my soul. Enroll me among thy most faithful servants; take me under thy protection and it is enough for me: yes, for if thou protect me, I shall fear nothing; not my sins, for thou wilt obtain for me their pardon and remission; not the evil spirits, for thou art mightier than all the powers of hell; not even Jesus, my Judge, for He is appeased by a single prayer from thee. I fear only that through my own negligence I may forget to recommend myself to thee and so I shall be lost. My dear Lady, obtain for me the forgiveness of my sins, love for Jesus, final perseverance and the grace to have recourse to thee at all times, O Mother of Perpetual Help.
Hail Mary
[Taken from catholic.org/prayers/prayer.php?p=321 There are two other prayers that are just as bad]
This is a prayer to a goddess. Those who pray this prayer fear "that through my own negligence I may forget to commend myself to thee and so I shall be lost." So prayer to Mary is necessary for salvation. Therefore she must be considered a god along with the piece of bread that Roman Catholics worship. Therefore Rome's conception of the Trinity may be orthodox is theory, but in practice it is blasphemous. You need to come out of it for the sake of your soul.
Nope. I can even replace Mary with YOUR OWN NAME and the prayer flies. Assuming of course you are a faithful Christian.
Basic humility. You can learn this from the centurion who felt unworthy to even be In Jesus presence, Even the woman who is so humble as to get intercessory prayer from the clothes of Jesus.
Notice the woman touched/prayed to the clothes, And she didn't even want Jesus to KNOW IT. but Jesus says WHO TOUCHED ME? I mean that's borderline stealing from Jesus Christ.
You Martin, are a lot higher then Jesus' clothes. You are co-heir with Christ, romans 8. Partaker of his divinity and child of God.
So I can say that above prayer with Martin rather Mary and the prayer flies.
John 4
14but whoever drinks of the water that I will give him shall never thirst; but the water that I will give him will become in him a well of water springing up to eternal life.”
We don't need to drag down what it means to be a Christian, We need to drag you up what it means to be Martin.
I have been called a few things in my time but never the "mother of perpetual help."
I think the guy was right who suggested that we need an "Are you drunk?" icon on this board.
Well you would qualify as a brother of perpetual help. There is nothing in that prayer that claims you are God.
"However, it is not what people say but what they do that matters:"
What you say matters too.
Matthew 12
33“Either make the tree good and its fruit good, or make the tree bad and its fruit bad; for the tree is known by its fruit. 34“You brood of vipers, how can you, being evil, speak what is good? For the mouth speaks out of that which fills the heart. 35“The good man brings out of his good treasure what is good; and the evil man brings out of his evil treasure what is evil. 36“But I tell you that every careless word that people speak, they shall give an accounting for it in the day of judgment. 37“For by your words you will be justified, and by your words you will be condemned.”
Don't hear folks whining about being JUSTIFIED by WORDS ALONE. And this is from Jesus own mouth.
Its tougher to argue against the man who believes he is justified by words alone, then faith alone.
Because Jesus actually says one, NEVER the other.
What makes faith justifying is not love, but the content which is embraced by faith. That content is the gospel and demons do not believe in the gospel. We love him because he first loved us and so our love is a consequence of salvation not the cause of it.
Indeed, the mind state of the lost person is incapable of love as Paul says that mindset is one of "enmity" toward God. Jesus described the love life of a lost person as one who "loves darkness rather than light." Hence, what makes faith justifying is not love but the content which defines the basis for salvation to be obtained. Love is the fruit of the Spirit and product of a regenerate nature, neither of which demons have. Only one who is already a child of God can love, but one cannot love to become a child of God as they have no ability to love (Rom. 8:7). Faith that worketh by love is not describing how one becomes a child of God but how faith works in one who already is a child of God and refers to their sanctification by the Spirit who works in them both to will and to do his good pleasure (Philip. 2:13) which is called sanctification not justification.
Catholicism is a joke, a sad joke and is no more "Christian" than being a "muslim" is being Christian. With regard to Mary, to claim that the very titles and acts of adoration being ascribed to her by Catholics is not equal to titles and acts of adoration being ascribed to God is so pathetically false it is hard to believe any Catholic can deny it.
"Holiest Virgin, with all my heart I WORSHIP THEE above all the angels and saints in paradise... I consecrate my soul and all its powers...I WORSHIP THEE the spouse of the Holy Ghost..." (quote from Devotions to Our Blessed Lady, All for Jesus: Approved Devotions and Prayers for Church and Home, p 283. Imprimatur: John Cardinal McCloskey, Archbishop of NY, Mar 13, 1884)
Surely an "archbishop" would not misrepresent the Catholic spirit toward Mary????? Is not only God the proper object of "worship"???
How could anyone but Jesus Christ be described by the title "seat of wisdom" when that very idea is characterized by Christ (Prov. 8; 1 Cor. 1:22)?
Holy Mary, pray for us.
Holy Mother of God,
Holy Virgin of virgins,
Mother of Christ,
Mother of the Church,
Mother of divine grace,
Mother most pure,
Mother most chaste,
Mother inviolate,
Mother undefiled,
Mother most amiable,
Mother most admirable,
Mother of good counsel,
Mother of our Creator,
Mother of our Savior,
Virgin most prudent,
Virgin most venerable,
Virgin most renowned,
Virgin most powerful,
Virgin most merciful,
Virgin most faithful,
Mirror of justice,
Seat of wisdom,
Cause of our joy,
Spiritual vessel,
Vessel of honor,
Singular vessel of devotion,
Mystical rose,
Tower of David,
Tower of ivory,
House of gold,
Ark of the covenant,
Gate of heaven,
Morning star,
Health of the sick,
Refuge of sinners,
Comforter of the afflicted,
Help of Christians,
Queen of angels,
Queen of patriarchs,
Queen of prophets,
Queen of apostles,
Queen of martyrs,
Queen of confessors,
Queen of virgins,
Queen of all saints,
Queen conceived without original sin,
Queen assumed into heaven,
Queen of the most holy Rosary,
Queen of families,
Queen of peace
Other than one of the Persons of the Godhead, what other being in the universe is given more auspicious titles of honor devotion than Rome gives Mary?????? She is even called "co-redemptrix" thus robbing Christ of his own glory as the ONLY NAME given under heaven whereby we must be saved (Acts 4:12). For Rome to claim she has not defied Mary is a joke!
Roman Catholocism is the first Christian cult in post-New Testament History. Arianism was first a doctrine of the Catholic Church embraced by some of its Popes before it was condemned by Rome.
The true Christians are found under the smear campaign of Rome left on their records against those they called Anabaptists.
Indeed, the mind state of the lost person is incapable of love as Paul says that mindset is one of "enmity" toward God. Jesus described the love life of a lost person as one who "loves darkness rather than light." Hence, what makes faith justifying is not love but the content which defines the basis for salvation to be obtained. Love is the fruit of the Spirit and product of a regenerate nature, neither of which demons have. Only one who is already a child of God can love, but one cannot love to become a child of God as they have no ability to love (Rom. 8:7). Faith that worketh by love is not describing how one becomes a child of God but how faith works in one who already is a child of God and refers to their sanctification by the Spirit who works in them both to will and to do his good pleasure (Philip. 2:13) which is called sanctification not justification.
Catholicism is a joke, a sad joke and is no more "Christian" than being a "muslim" is being Christian. With regard to Mary, to claim that the very titles and acts of adoration being ascribed to her by Catholics is not equal to titles and acts of adoration being ascribed to God is so pathetically false it is hard to believe any Catholic can deny it.
"Holiest Virgin, with all my heart I WORSHIP THEE above all the angels and saints in paradise... I consecrate my soul and all its powers...I WORSHIP THEE the spouse of the Holy Ghost..." (quote from Devotions to Our Blessed Lady, All for Jesus: Approved Devotions and Prayers for Church and Home, p 283. Imprimatur: John Cardinal McCloskey, Archbishop of NY, Mar 13, 1884)
Surely an "archbishop" would not misrepresent the Catholic spirit toward Mary????? Is not only God the proper object of "worship"???
How could anyone but Jesus Christ be described by the title "seat of wisdom" when that very idea is characterized by Christ (Prov. 8; 1 Cor. 1:22)?
Holy Mary, pray for us.
Holy Mother of God,
Holy Virgin of virgins,
Mother of Christ,
Mother of the Church,
Mother of divine grace,
Mother most pure,
Mother most chaste,
Mother inviolate,
Mother undefiled,
Mother most amiable,
Mother most admirable,
Mother of good counsel,
Mother of our Creator,
Mother of our Savior,
Virgin most prudent,
Virgin most venerable,
Virgin most renowned,
Virgin most powerful,
Virgin most merciful,
Virgin most faithful,
Mirror of justice,
Seat of wisdom,
Cause of our joy,
Spiritual vessel,
Vessel of honor,
Singular vessel of devotion,
Mystical rose,
Tower of David,
Tower of ivory,
House of gold,
Ark of the covenant,
Gate of heaven,
Morning star,
Health of the sick,
Refuge of sinners,
Comforter of the afflicted,
Help of Christians,
Queen of angels,
Queen of patriarchs,
Queen of prophets,
Queen of apostles,
Queen of martyrs,
Queen of confessors,
Queen of virgins,
Queen of all saints,
Queen conceived without original sin,
Queen assumed into heaven,
Queen of the most holy Rosary,
Queen of families,
Queen of peace
Other than one of the Persons of the Godhead, what other being in the universe is given more auspicious titles of honor devotion than Rome gives Mary?????? She is even called "co-redemptrix" thus robbing Christ of his own glory as the ONLY NAME given under heaven whereby we must be saved (Acts 4:12). For Rome to claim she has not defied Mary is a joke!
Roman Catholocism is the first Christian cult in post-New Testament History. Arianism was first a doctrine of the Catholic Church embraced by some of its Popes before it was condemned by Rome.
The true Christians are found under the smear campaign of Rome left on their records against those they called Anabaptists.
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Nope.
Matthew 8
28When He came to the other side into the country of the Gadarenes, two men who were demon-possessed met Him as they were coming out of the tombs. They were so extremely violent that no one could pass by that way. 29And they cried out, saying, “What business do we have with each other, Son of God? Have You come here to torment us before the time?”
Demons know right away and believe Jesus is Son of God and even believe their appointed time of destruction. They believe the gospel.
Devils will even quote scripture.
30Now there was a herd of many swine feeding at a distance from them. 31The demons began to entreat Him, saying, “If You are going to cast us out, send us into the herd of swine.” 32And He said to them, “Go!” And they came out and went into the swine, and the whole herd rushed down the steep bank into the sea and perished in the waters.
We see here Demons making "prayers" that is requesting from God. Jesus allows it.
They certainly wouldn't ask for it unless they had FAITH Christ could deliver.
The makings of Good and Evil rest on one quality and that is Love.
We are BIBLE believing Christians. You scurry away and never face up the scripture.
I LOVE the scriptures.
1 Corinthians 13
2If I have the gift of prophecy, and know all mysteries and all knowledge; and if I have all faith, so as to remove mountains, but do not have love, I am nothing.
ALL FAITH, no love = NOTHING.
You can't even say amen to holy scripture because you hate the word of God.
I Love it.
James 2
20But are you willing to recognize, you foolish fellow, that faith without works is useless?
AMEN to the holy word of God!
You can't say amen to this. It is our holy scripture.
James 2
24You see that a man is justified by works and not by faith alone.
Flat out. You are simply not a bible believer.
Galatians 6
6The one who is taught the word is to share all good things with the one who teaches him. 7Do not be deceived, God is not mocked; for whatever a man sows, this he will also reap. 8For the one who sows to his own flesh will from the flesh reap corruption, but the one who sows to the Spirit will from the Spirit reap eternal life. 9Let us not lose heart in doing good, for in due time we will reap if we do not grow weary.
Amen.
Matthew 25
34“Then the King will say to those on His right, ‘Come, you who are blessed of My Father, inherit the kingdom prepared for you from the foundation of the world. 35‘For I was hungry, and you gave Me something to eat; I was thirsty, and you gave Me something to drink; I was a stranger, and you invited Me in; 36naked, and you clothed Me; I was sick, and you visited Me; I was in prison, and you came to Me.’ 37“Then the righteous will answer Him, ‘Lord, when did we see You hungry, and feed You, or thirsty, and give You something to drink? 38‘And when did we see You a stranger, and invite You in, or naked, and clothe You? 39‘When did we see You sick, or in prison, and come to You?’ 40“The King will answer and say to them, ‘Truly I say to you, to the extent that you did it to one of these brothers of Mine, even the least of them, you did it to Me.’
41“Then He will also say to those on His left, ‘Depart from Me, accursed ones, into the eternal fire which has been prepared for the devil and his angels; 42for I was hungry, and you gave Me nothing to eat; I was thirsty, and you gave Me nothing to drink; 43I was a stranger, and you did not invite Me in; naked, and you did not clothe Me; sick, and in prison, and you did not visit Me.’ 44“Then they themselves also will answer, ‘Lord, when did we see You hungry, or thirsty, or a stranger, or naked, or sick, or in prison, and did not take care of You?’ 45“Then He will answer them, ‘Truly I say to you, to the extent that you did not do it to one of the least of these, you did not do it to Me.’ 46“These will go away into eternal punishment, but the righteous into eternal life.”
You have to add words, mean that, take it BACKWARDS, twist it this way or here.
Crooked.
The scripture is perfect , Face value, it says what it means.
Matthew 19
9“And I say to you, whoever divorces his wife, except for immorality, and marries another woman commits adultery.”
Matthew 5
32but I say to you that everyone who divorces his wife, except for the reason of unchastity, makes her commit adultery; and whoever marries a divorced woman commits adultery.
License to sin has been revoked.
Matthew 8
28When He came to the other side into the country of the Gadarenes, two men who were demon-possessed met Him as they were coming out of the tombs. They were so extremely violent that no one could pass by that way. 29And they cried out, saying, “What business do we have with each other, Son of God? Have You come here to torment us before the time?”
Demons know right away and believe Jesus is Son of God and even believe their appointed time of destruction. They believe the gospel.
Devils will even quote scripture.
30Now there was a herd of many swine feeding at a distance from them. 31The demons began to entreat Him, saying, “If You are going to cast us out, send us into the herd of swine.” 32And He said to them, “Go!” And they came out and went into the swine, and the whole herd rushed down the steep bank into the sea and perished in the waters.
We see here Demons making "prayers" that is requesting from God. Jesus allows it.
They certainly wouldn't ask for it unless they had FAITH Christ could deliver.
The makings of Good and Evil rest on one quality and that is Love.
We are BIBLE believing Christians. You scurry away and never face up the scripture.
I LOVE the scriptures.
1 Corinthians 13
2If I have the gift of prophecy, and know all mysteries and all knowledge; and if I have all faith, so as to remove mountains, but do not have love, I am nothing.
ALL FAITH, no love = NOTHING.
You can't even say amen to holy scripture because you hate the word of God.
I Love it.
James 2
20But are you willing to recognize, you foolish fellow, that faith without works is useless?
AMEN to the holy word of God!
You can't say amen to this. It is our holy scripture.
James 2
24You see that a man is justified by works and not by faith alone.
Flat out. You are simply not a bible believer.
Galatians 6
6The one who is taught the word is to share all good things with the one who teaches him. 7Do not be deceived, God is not mocked; for whatever a man sows, this he will also reap. 8For the one who sows to his own flesh will from the flesh reap corruption, but the one who sows to the Spirit will from the Spirit reap eternal life. 9Let us not lose heart in doing good, for in due time we will reap if we do not grow weary.
Amen.
Matthew 25
34“Then the King will say to those on His right, ‘Come, you who are blessed of My Father, inherit the kingdom prepared for you from the foundation of the world. 35‘For I was hungry, and you gave Me something to eat; I was thirsty, and you gave Me something to drink; I was a stranger, and you invited Me in; 36naked, and you clothed Me; I was sick, and you visited Me; I was in prison, and you came to Me.’ 37“Then the righteous will answer Him, ‘Lord, when did we see You hungry, and feed You, or thirsty, and give You something to drink? 38‘And when did we see You a stranger, and invite You in, or naked, and clothe You? 39‘When did we see You sick, or in prison, and come to You?’ 40“The King will answer and say to them, ‘Truly I say to you, to the extent that you did it to one of these brothers of Mine, even the least of them, you did it to Me.’
41“Then He will also say to those on His left, ‘Depart from Me, accursed ones, into the eternal fire which has been prepared for the devil and his angels; 42for I was hungry, and you gave Me nothing to eat; I was thirsty, and you gave Me nothing to drink; 43I was a stranger, and you did not invite Me in; naked, and you did not clothe Me; sick, and in prison, and you did not visit Me.’ 44“Then they themselves also will answer, ‘Lord, when did we see You hungry, or thirsty, or a stranger, or naked, or sick, or in prison, and did not take care of You?’ 45“Then He will answer them, ‘Truly I say to you, to the extent that you did not do it to one of the least of these, you did not do it to Me.’ 46“These will go away into eternal punishment, but the righteous into eternal life.”
You have to add words, mean that, take it BACKWARDS, twist it this way or here.
Crooked.
The scripture is perfect , Face value, it says what it means.
Matthew 19
9“And I say to you, whoever divorces his wife, except for immorality, and marries another woman commits adultery.”
Matthew 5
32but I say to you that everyone who divorces his wife, except for the reason of unchastity, makes her commit adultery; and whoever marries a divorced woman commits adultery.
License to sin has been revoked.
Not only Rome, but that other great orthodox Christian faith tradition our Eastern Orthodox brothers. Mary is the Theotokos - the mother of Jesus who was God Incarnated here on earth. They also had the good sense to not abandon the sacraments (those things we hold sacred) when the first great schism in Christianity occurred.
James 2
22Seest thou how faith wrought with his works, and by works was faith made perfect?
Can a unperfect, incomplete, broke faith save a man? Works makes complete faith.
25Likewise also was not Rahab the harlot justified by works, when she had received the messengers, and had sent them out another way? 26For as the body without the spirit is dead, so faith without works is dead also.
Was Rahab justified by works?
"Dead Body alone" theology does not work.
22Seest thou how faith wrought with his works, and by works was faith made perfect?
Can a unperfect, incomplete, broke faith save a man? Works makes complete faith.
25Likewise also was not Rahab the harlot justified by works, when she had received the messengers, and had sent them out another way? 26For as the body without the spirit is dead, so faith without works is dead also.
Was Rahab justified by works?
"Dead Body alone" theology does not work.
The "Hail Mary" prayer is a prayer with words in it taken directly from the Holy Scriptures. You have a problem with that? Tell me, do you deny that she is "Blessed"?
As for the holy Eucharist, we worship not the bread but what it really is - the Body, Blood, Soul, and Divinity of Jesus Christ. You choose to reject that reality which is your everlasting loss.
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Mary is as "blessed" as every other Christian. 'Full of grace' is a mistranslation that comes from the Vulgate. It should be rendered 'highly favoured,' which she was and is. But she has no grace to bestow, and it wouldn't help if she had, 'For in [Christ] dwells all the fullness of the Godhead bodily; and you are complete in Him' (Colossians 2:8-10). The Christian is complete in Christ.
But I didn't post the 'hail Mary.' This is what I posted:
O Mother of Perpetual Help, thou art the dispenser of every grace that God grants us in our misery; it is for this cause that He hath made thee so powerful, so rich, so kind, that thou mightest assist us in our miseries. Thou art the advocate of the most wretched and abandoned sinners, if they but come unto thee; come once more to my assistance, for I commend myself to thee. In thy hands I place my eternal salvation; to thee I entrust my soul. Enroll me among thy most faithful servants; take me under thy protection and it is enough for me: yes, for if thou protect me, I shall fear nothing; not my sins, for thou wilt obtain for me their pardon and remission; not the evil spirits, for thou art mightier than all the powers of hell; not even Jesus, my Judge, for He is appeased by a single prayer from thee. I fear only that through my own negligence I may forget to recommend myself to thee and so I shall be lost. My dear Lady, obtain for me the forgiveness of my sins, love for Jesus, final perseverance and the grace to have recourse to thee at all times, O Mother of Perpetual Help.
Hail Mary
And that is unbiblical, blasphemous nonsense.
Bread it is and bread it remains, and sticking it up on a pole or waving it about and bowing down to it doesn't alter the fact. But when we receive the bread and the wine by faith, we feed, not carnally but spiritually upon Christ
Martin Luther does not agree:
Who, but the devil, has granted such license of wresting the words of the holy Scripture? Who ever read in the Scriptures, that my body is the same as the sign of my body? or, that is is the same as it signifies? What language in the world ever spoke so? It is only then the devil, that imposes upon us by these fanatical men. Not one of the Fathers of the Church, though so numerous, ever spoke as the Sacramentarians: not one of them ever said, It is only bread and wine; or, the body and blood of Christ is not there present.
Surely, it is not credible, nor possible, since they often speak, and repeat their sentiments, that they should never (if they thought so) not so much as once, say, or let slip these words: It is bread only; or the body of Christ is not there, especially it being of great importance, that men should not be deceived. Certainly, in so many Fathers, and in so many writings, the negative might at least be found in one of them, had they thought the body and blood of Christ were not really present: but they are all of them unanimous.”
—Luther’s Collected Works, Wittenburg Edition, no. 7 p, 391
I think folks need to understand the sacrificial implications of just having bread on the altar of God would be a sin.
Early Church:
The Didache
"Assemble on the Lord’s day, and break bread and offer the Eucharist; but first make confession of your faults, so that your sacrifice may be a pure one. Anyone who has a difference with his fellow is not to take part with you until he has been reconciled, so as to avoid any profanation of your sacrifice [Matt. 5:23–24]. For this is the offering of which the Lord has said, ‘Everywhere and always bring me a sacrifice that is undefiled, for I am a great king, says the Lord, and my name is the wonder of nations’ [Mal. 1:11, 14]" (Didache 14 [A.D. 70]).
Justin Martyr
"God speaks by the mouth of Malachi, one of the twelve [minor prophets], as I said before, about the sacrifices at that time presented by you: ‘I have no pleasure in you, says the Lord, and I will not accept your sacrifices at your hands; for from the rising of the sun to the going down of the same, my name has been glorified among the Gentiles, and in every place incense is offered to my name, and a pure offering, for my name is great among the Gentiles . . . [Mal. 1:10–11]. He then speaks of those Gentiles, namely us [Christians] who in every place offer sacrifices to him, that is, the bread of the Eucharist and also the cup of the Eucharist" (Dialogue with Trypho the Jew 41 [A.D. 155]).
Irenaeus
"He took from among creation that which is bread, and gave thanks, saying, ‘This is my body.’ The cup likewise, which is from among the creation to which we belong, he confessed to be his blood. He taught the new sacrifice of the new covenant, of which Malachi, one of the twelve [minor] prophets, had signified beforehand: ‘You do not do my will, says the Lord Almighty, and I will not accept a sacrifice at your hands. For from the rising of the sun to its setting my name is glorified among the Gentiles, and in every place incense is offered to my name, and a pure sacrifice; for great is my name among the Gentiles, says the Lord Almighty’ [Mal. 1:10–11]. By these words he makes it plain that the former people will cease to make offerings to God; but that in every place sacrifice will be offered to him, and indeed, a pure one, for his name is glorified among the Gentiles" (Against Heresies 4:17:5 [A.D. 189]).
Scripture says, There is a sacrifice taking place on an altar at church. And scripture is very picky that this pure offering must be pure.
Malachi 1
7Ye offer polluted bread upon mine altar; and ye say, Wherein have we polluted thee? In that ye say, The table of the LORD is contemptible.
Martin with what your saying you are admitting to polluting the altar with bread. It has to be a pure offering on the altar.
Your better off not having bread or wine......and then "spiritually" eat the body and blood.
You said yourself what you offer on the altar is fake.
Another thing that needs to be considered is that it is the communion done in memory of Jesus rather then a remembrance done in memory of communion.
26While they were eating, Jesus took some bread, and after a blessing, He broke it and gave it to the disciples, and said, “Take, eat; this is My body.” 27And when He had taken a cup and given thanks, He gave it to them, saying, “Drink from it, all of you; 28for this is My blood of the covenant, which is poured out for many for forgiveness of sins.
The blood of the covenant is being poured out.
St. John Chrysostom
"What then? Do we not offer daily? Yes, we offer, but making remembrance of his death; and this remembrance is one and not many. How is it one and not many? Because this sacrifice is offered once, like that in the Holy of Holies. This sacrifice is a type of that, and this remembrance a type of that. We offer always the same, not one sheep now and another tomorrow, but the same thing always. Thus there is one sacrifice. By this reasoning, since the sacrifice is offered everywhere, are there, then, a multiplicity of Christs? By no means! Christ is one everywhere. He is complete here, complete there, one body. And just as he is one body and not many though offered everywhere, so too is there one sacrifice" (Homilies on Hebrews 17:3(6) [A.D. 403]).
Who, but the devil, has granted such license of wresting the words of the holy Scripture? Who ever read in the Scriptures, that my body is the same as the sign of my body? or, that is is the same as it signifies? What language in the world ever spoke so? It is only then the devil, that imposes upon us by these fanatical men. Not one of the Fathers of the Church, though so numerous, ever spoke as the Sacramentarians: not one of them ever said, It is only bread and wine; or, the body and blood of Christ is not there present.
Surely, it is not credible, nor possible, since they often speak, and repeat their sentiments, that they should never (if they thought so) not so much as once, say, or let slip these words: It is bread only; or the body of Christ is not there, especially it being of great importance, that men should not be deceived. Certainly, in so many Fathers, and in so many writings, the negative might at least be found in one of them, had they thought the body and blood of Christ were not really present: but they are all of them unanimous.”
—Luther’s Collected Works, Wittenburg Edition, no. 7 p, 391
I think folks need to understand the sacrificial implications of just having bread on the altar of God would be a sin.
Early Church:
The Didache
"Assemble on the Lord’s day, and break bread and offer the Eucharist; but first make confession of your faults, so that your sacrifice may be a pure one. Anyone who has a difference with his fellow is not to take part with you until he has been reconciled, so as to avoid any profanation of your sacrifice [Matt. 5:23–24]. For this is the offering of which the Lord has said, ‘Everywhere and always bring me a sacrifice that is undefiled, for I am a great king, says the Lord, and my name is the wonder of nations’ [Mal. 1:11, 14]" (Didache 14 [A.D. 70]).
Justin Martyr
"God speaks by the mouth of Malachi, one of the twelve [minor prophets], as I said before, about the sacrifices at that time presented by you: ‘I have no pleasure in you, says the Lord, and I will not accept your sacrifices at your hands; for from the rising of the sun to the going down of the same, my name has been glorified among the Gentiles, and in every place incense is offered to my name, and a pure offering, for my name is great among the Gentiles . . . [Mal. 1:10–11]. He then speaks of those Gentiles, namely us [Christians] who in every place offer sacrifices to him, that is, the bread of the Eucharist and also the cup of the Eucharist" (Dialogue with Trypho the Jew 41 [A.D. 155]).
Irenaeus
"He took from among creation that which is bread, and gave thanks, saying, ‘This is my body.’ The cup likewise, which is from among the creation to which we belong, he confessed to be his blood. He taught the new sacrifice of the new covenant, of which Malachi, one of the twelve [minor] prophets, had signified beforehand: ‘You do not do my will, says the Lord Almighty, and I will not accept a sacrifice at your hands. For from the rising of the sun to its setting my name is glorified among the Gentiles, and in every place incense is offered to my name, and a pure sacrifice; for great is my name among the Gentiles, says the Lord Almighty’ [Mal. 1:10–11]. By these words he makes it plain that the former people will cease to make offerings to God; but that in every place sacrifice will be offered to him, and indeed, a pure one, for his name is glorified among the Gentiles" (Against Heresies 4:17:5 [A.D. 189]).
Scripture says, There is a sacrifice taking place on an altar at church. And scripture is very picky that this pure offering must be pure.
Malachi 1
7Ye offer polluted bread upon mine altar; and ye say, Wherein have we polluted thee? In that ye say, The table of the LORD is contemptible.
Martin with what your saying you are admitting to polluting the altar with bread. It has to be a pure offering on the altar.
Your better off not having bread or wine......and then "spiritually" eat the body and blood.
You said yourself what you offer on the altar is fake.
Another thing that needs to be considered is that it is the communion done in memory of Jesus rather then a remembrance done in memory of communion.
26While they were eating, Jesus took some bread, and after a blessing, He broke it and gave it to the disciples, and said, “Take, eat; this is My body.” 27And when He had taken a cup and given thanks, He gave it to them, saying, “Drink from it, all of you; 28for this is My blood of the covenant, which is poured out for many for forgiveness of sins.
The blood of the covenant is being poured out.
St. John Chrysostom
"What then? Do we not offer daily? Yes, we offer, but making remembrance of his death; and this remembrance is one and not many. How is it one and not many? Because this sacrifice is offered once, like that in the Holy of Holies. This sacrifice is a type of that, and this remembrance a type of that. We offer always the same, not one sheep now and another tomorrow, but the same thing always. Thus there is one sacrifice. By this reasoning, since the sacrifice is offered everywhere, are there, then, a multiplicity of Christs? By no means! Christ is one everywhere. He is complete here, complete there, one body. And just as he is one body and not many though offered everywhere, so too is there one sacrifice" (Homilies on Hebrews 17:3(6) [A.D. 403]).
His death and his resurrection did EVERYTHING for us, allowing God to save sinners, but the ONLY requirement God has EVER made to appopiate that saving Grace is faith alone in the person and work of jesus himself, NO water Baptising adding to that, or any other so called sacrament!
Why would I be bothered about that? Do you think I'm a Lutheran?
I do not offer anything on an 'altar.' The sacrifice has been made once and for all. 'He [Christ] sacrificed for their [His people's] sins once for all when He offered Himself' (Hebrews 7:27). There is no altar in a Christian church; there is a table where we obey the words of our Lord: "Do this in remembrance of Me" (1 Corinthians 11:24).
When the Lord Jesus spoke the words you quoted from Matthew 26:27-28, the blood of the covenant had not yet been poured out. Now it has been. Read Hebrews 10:11-14. Our Lord is in heaven, waiting for His enemies to be made His footstool. The blood of the covenant HAS BEEN poured out once and for all. 'Every priest stands ministering daily and offering repeatedly the same sacrifices, which can never take away sins. But this Man, after He had offered one sacrifice for sins forever, sat down at the right hand of God.' The New Testament knows nothing about priests, save the old Jewish priests and the universal priesthood of all believers. The 'priests' of the Church of Rome have no Biblical basis and are a wretched confusion of the old and new covenants.
Well congratulations, admitting Catholics are the church is a good first step
1 Corinthians 12
27Now you are Christ’s body, and individually members of it. 28And God has appointed in the church, first apostles, second prophets, third teachers, then miracles, then gifts of healings, helps, administrations, various kinds of tongues.
Realizing the Church is the Body of Christ is healthy 2nd. If it was not the Body of Christ in which he is also its head. I would have nothing to do with any church.
Ephesians 5
28So husbands ought also to love their own wives as their own bodies. He who loves his own wife loves himself; 29for no one ever hated his own flesh, but nourishes and cherishes it, just as Christ also does the church, 30because we are members of His body. 31FOR THIS REASON A MAN SHALL LEAVE HIS FATHER AND MOTHER AND SHALL BE JOINED TO HIS WIFE, AND THE TWO SHALL BECOME ONE FLESH. 32This mystery is great; but I am speaking with reference to Christ and the church.
As the Devil I would suggest retracting any notion that Catholics was the church at all. That way you can vilify the Catholics and hijack the body of Christ for yourself.
Martin Luther invented Sola Scriptura and Faith Alone. Your as much as his mess as he is ours.
Priest is short for presbyter.
Malachi 1, is your loose end. TIE IT.
Malachi 1
7Ye offer polluted bread upon mine altar; and ye say, Wherein have we polluted thee? In that ye say, The table of the LORD is contemptible.
If your communion was done "spiritually alone" when you hold it you not bring up bread to the altar. Because all those "representations" invalid. A pure offering is required.
Malachi 1
. 11“For from the rising of the sun even to its setting, My name will be great among the nations, and in every place incense is going to be offered to My name, and a grain offering that is pure; for My name will be great among the nations,” says the LORD of hosts.
You can ignore "grain offering" I didn't see in the Hebrew.
But offering that is pure still stands. What do you offer?
If you walked in empty handed and say well I offer Jesus Christ, no, you guys said yourself the sacrifice happened ONCE and its not happening here.
If you walked in with bread and it was only a symbol that would be unqualified polluted bread
7Ye offer polluted bread upon mine altar; and ye say, Wherein have we polluted thee? In that ye say, The table of the LORD is contemptible.
Scripture says it will be everywhere and through out the whole day.
When the Eucharist is offered, The sacrifice is offered once AND it is here.
No he didn't. They are in the Bible and can be found in the church fathers as well as Wycliffe.
Translate into English, please.
No it isn't. 'Priest' is the translation of the Greek word hiereus, which refers to the priests of the old covenant. Presbuteros means 'an older man' and is translated 'elder.'
No it isn't.
Your problem (or one of them, anyway) is that you confuse the Old and New Covenants. Christians do not 'offer' bread, and certainly not on an 'altar.' 'Do this in remembrance of Me.'
Offer Jesus Christ?? No, no! It's the Church of Rome that thinks it does that. Offer bread?? 'If I were hungry, I would not tell you, for the world is Mine and all its fullness' (Psalm 50:12).
What do Christians offer? Read Romans 12:1-2 and find out.
Indeed it does.
'Take my life, and let it be
Consecrated, Lord to Thee.
Take my moments and my days,
Let them flow in ceaseless praise.'
[Frances Ridley Havergal]
- Status