Roman Soteriology Exposed and Condemned

[utilyan]

No he didn't. They are in the Bible and can be found in the church fathers as well as Wycliffe.

Translate into English, please.

No it isn't. 'Priest' is the translation of the Greek word hiereus, which refers to the priests of the old covenant. Presbuteros means 'an older man' and is translated 'elder.'


No it isn't.

Your problem (or one of them, anyway) is that you confuse the Old and New Covenants. Christians do not 'offer' bread, and certainly not on an 'altar.' 'Do this in remembrance of Me.'


Offer Jesus Christ?? No, no! It's the Church of Rome that thinks it does that. Offer bread?? 'If I were hungry, I would not tell you, for the world is Mine and all its fullness' (Psalm 50:12).
What do Christians offer? Read Romans 12:1-2 and find out.

Indeed it does.

'Take my life, and let it be
Consecrated, Lord to Thee.
Take my moments and my days,
Let them flow in ceaseless praise.'

[Frances Ridley Havergal]

Wiki and Google is friend.

A priest or priestess (feminine) (from Greek πρεσβύτερος presbýteros through Latin presbyter, "elder", or from Old High German priast, prest, from Vulgar Latin "provost" "one put over others", from Latin praepositus "person placed in charge"), is a person authorized to perform the sacred rituals of a religion, especially as a mediatory agent between humans and one or more deities.

presbýteros = Priest.



Touto poieite tan eman anamnasin


Jesus is not saying DO this TO remember me. Do this in remembrance.

What is done? Nothing?

Jesus Christ OFFERS his Body and Blood. The covenant.

This cup which is poured out for you is the new covenant in My blood.


Take a good look at the years. Apostles are still alive:


The Didache

"Assemble on the Lord’s day, and break bread and offer the Eucharist; but first make confession of your faults, so that your sacrifice may be a pure one. Anyone who has a difference with his fellow is not to take part with you until he has been reconciled, so as to avoid any profanation of your sacrifice [Matt. 5:23–24]. For this is the offering of which the Lord has said, ‘Everywhere and always bring me a sacrifice that is undefiled, for I am a great king, says the Lord, and my name is the wonder of nations’ [Mal. 1:11, 14]" (Didache 14 [A.D. 70]).


Pope Clement I

"Our sin will not be small if we eject from the episcopate those who blamelessly and holily have offered its sacrifices. Blessed are those presbyters who have already finished their course, and who have obtained a fruitful and perfect release" (Letter to the Corinthians 44:4–5 [A.D. 80]).


Ignatius of Antioch

"Make certain, therefore, that you all observe one common Eucharist; for there is but one Body of our Lord Jesus Christ, and but one cup of union with his Blood, and one single altar of sacrifice—even as there is also but one bishop, with his clergy and my own fellow servitors, the deacons. This will ensure that all your doings are in full accord with the will of God" (Letter to the Philadelphians 4 [A.D. 110]).



Hebrews 9

23Therefore it was necessary for the copies of the things in the heavens to be cleansed with these, but the heavenly things themselves with better sacrifices than these. 24For Christ did not enter a holy place made with hands, a mere copy of the true one, but into heaven itself, now to appear in the presence of God for us; 25nor was it that He would offer Himself often, as the high priest enters the holy place year by year with blood that is not his own.


Key point is sacrifices is plural. Yet it does not done often, it is once.


Romans 12
1I beseech you therefore, brethren, by the mercies of God, that ye present your bodies a living sacrifice, holy, acceptable unto God, which is your reasonable service.


1 peter 2

5Ye also, as lively stones, are built up a spiritual house, an holy priesthood, to offer up spiritual sacrifices, acceptable to God by Jesus Christ.




Scriptures is packed with verses contrasting our duty to the Table of the Lord rather then pagans.




1 Corinthians 11
26For as often as you eat this bread and drink the cup, you proclaim the Lord’s death until He comes.

How often do you proclaim the gospel? In the church it is done all the time.

 

[The Biblicist]

Wiki and Google is friend.

A priest or priestess (feminine) (from Greek πρεσβύτερος presbýteros through Latin presbyter, "elder", or from Old High German priast, prest, from Vulgar Latin "provost" "one put over others", from Latin praepositus "person placed in charge"), is a person authorized to perform the sacred rituals of a religion, especially as a mediatory agent between humans and one or more deities.

presbýteros = Priest.

Give me a break! First, Acts 20:17,28; and 1 Tim. 4:1 prove they are four titles to describe the different responsibilities of one and the same office. However, that is not how Rome applies them is it! Nor is that how the apostate church father's apply them do they? Hence, Rome is following the vain uninspired traditions of men rather than scripture.Again, they are applied to one OFFICE and so to attempt to overthrow that application by citing general applications to NON-OFFICE persons or functions is invalid.

Second, It does not matter if the English term "priest" is derived from the Greek presbuteros, because the English term "priest" in the New Testament is not derived from, or a translation of presbuteros but translates the Greek term hierateuma ("priesthood" 1 Pet. 2:5) and hiereus ("priest") and these terms do not mean "elder' nor are they synonyms of presbuteros. Lexicographers are agreed that hiereus means "one who offers sacrifices" from hieros "sacred because belonging to the temple".So this is just another mental gynmastic by Roman Catholics to attempt to overrule the Scriptures by tradition instead of conforming tradition to scriptures. You are either one confused deceived individual or you know exactly what you are doing and trying to deceive others.

 

[Yeshua1]

Well congratulations, admitting Catholics are the church is a good first step

1 Corinthians 12

27Now you are Christ’s body, and individually members of it. 28And God has appointed in the church, first apostles, second prophets, third teachers, then miracles, then gifts of healings, helps, administrations, various kinds of tongues.

Realizing the Church is the Body of Christ is healthy 2nd. If it was not the Body of Christ in which he is also its head. I would have nothing to do with any church.

Ephesians 5

28So husbands ought also to love their own wives as their own bodies. He who loves his own wife loves himself; 29for no one ever hated his own flesh, but nourishes and cherishes it, just as Christ also does the church, 30because we are members of His body. 31FOR THIS REASON A MAN SHALL LEAVE HIS FATHER AND MOTHER AND SHALL BE JOINED TO HIS WIFE, AND THE TWO SHALL BECOME ONE FLESH. 32This mystery is great; but I am speaking with reference to Christ and the church.


As the Devil I would suggest retracting any notion that Catholics was the church at all. That way you can vilify the Catholics and hijack the body of Christ for yourself.

The Church of Rome is NOT the true church of Christ here, as it promotes a false Gospel message!

 

[The Biblicist]

You are either one confused deceived individual or you know exactly what you are doing and trying to deceive others.

Utilyan, you have my sincere apologies for the statement above. There is also a third possibility and that is most likely the true one and that is this is what you have been taught and you are sincerely defending it. I did not give you that option and so I apologize.

 

[Martin Marprelate]

Wiki and Google is friend.

A priest or priestess (feminine) (from Greek πρεσβύτερος presbýteros through Latin presbyter, "elder", or from Old High German priast, prest, from Vulgar Latin "provost" "one put over others", from Latin praepositus "person placed in charge"), is a person authorized to perform the sacred rituals of a religion, especially as a mediatory agent between humans and one or more deities.

presbýteros = Priest.

No. Presbuteros = Elder. From the Greek presbus, an old man.

Touto poieite tan eman anamnasin


Jesus is not saying DO this TO remember me. Do this in remembrance.

What is done? Nothing?

First of all the Lord doesn't say, 'Do this in remembrance,' He says do this in remembrance OF ME.'
Secondly, something is done. Bread and wine are taken, thanks is given, and the bread and wine are consumed in remembrance of Christ.

Jesus Christ OFFERS his Body and Blood.

No He doesn't. He made one sacrifice for sin once and for all at Calvary.

Take a good look at the years. Apostles are still alive:

Take a good look at the years. Apostles are still alive.

Matthew 7:15; Acts 20:29-30; 2 Corinthians 11:12-13; Jude 4.
I am not interested in your church fathers. Isaiah 8:20 applies.

 

[utilyan]

Utilyan, you have my sincere apologies for the statement above. There is also a third possibility and that is most likely the true one and that is this is what you have been taught and you are sincerely defending it. I did not give you that option and so I apologize.

Your in the clear brother, I took no offense and I hope I would do the same for you if our places were switched. God is on your side don't give up.

Someone well taught and sincere can still be ignorant "confused" and taught wrongly "deceived".

If you didn't care for me you wouldn't even talk to me. Thank you for fighting for my life.

I still lose my cool, and I still learn things form you, you are still a good teacher to me.

I love all you guys and Its my hope we all find ourselves smiling before God as he wipes away tears of joy.

 

[Yeshua1]

Your in the clear brother, I took no offense and I hope I would do the same for you if our places were switched. God is on your side don't give up.

Someone well taught and sincere can still be ignorant "confused" and taught wrongly "deceived".

If you didn't care for me you wouldn't even talk to me. Thank you for fighting for my life.

I still lose my cool, and I still learn things form you, you are still a good teacher to me.

I love all you guys and Its my hope we all find ourselves smiling before God as he wipes away tears of joy.

Best place to start is to just accept the truth that Bilbical chrsitianiy as regarding salvation and what Rome teaches are 2 seperate things!

 

[utilyan]

Best place to start is to just accept the truth that Bilbical chrsitianiy as regarding salvation and what Rome teaches are 2 seperate things!

Catholics wrote the bible.

I absolutely believe the Bible. Especially where it says THE CHURCH is the pillar and foundation of Truth.

I also don't add to it. Namely that the bible is ONLY sole rule of faith. A man made rule not found in scripture.

It is a man-made rule that something has to be biblical to be valid. That is has to be biblical is unbiblical itself.


I accept what scripture says directly without rewriting it backwards.

James 2
24You see that a man is justified by works and not by faith alone.


Had this scripture said "You see that a man is justified by faith alone and not by works."

I would never hear the end of it..


Say amen to this:

James 2
24You see that a man is justified by works and not by faith alone.

Preach it.


Shortly after making up faith alone, he added the word alone and then tried to get rid of James. This is not a secret. He bragged about it.

He wanted to get rid if James for the OBVIOUS stance against "Faith Alone".

 

[Yeshua1]

Catholics wrote the bible.

I absolutely believe the Bible. Especially where it says THE CHURCH is the pillar and foundation of Truth.

I also don't add to it. Namely that the bible is ONLY sole rule of faith. A man made rule not found in scripture.

It is a man-made rule that something has to be biblical to be valid. That is has to be biblical is unbiblical itself.


I accept what scripture says directly without rewriting it backwards.

James 2
24You see that a man is justified by works and not by faith alone.


Had this scripture said "You see that a man is justified by faith alone and not by works."

I would never hear the end of it..


Say amen to this:

James 2
24You see that a man is justified by works and not by faith alone.

Preach it.


Shortly after making up faith alone, he added the word alone and then tried to get rid of James. This is not a secret. He bragged about it.

He wanted to get rid if James for the OBVIOUS stance against "Faith Alone".

The Bible, real one of the canon 66 books, were all compelted by end of first century, were accepted as scripture WAY before validated by Rome...

The Council ONLY formally ratified what had already ben accepted and used for centuries....

And the Roman Church cannot be the one founded by Jesus, as she has a different Gospel message!

 

[utilyan]

The Bible, real one of the canon 66 books, were all compelted by end of first century, were accepted as scripture WAY before validated by Rome...

The Council ONLY formally ratified what had already ben accepted and used for centuries....

And the Roman Church cannot be the one founded by Jesus, as she has a different Gospel message!

"The Bible, real one of the canon 66 books, were all compelted by end of first century, were accepted as scripture WAY before validated by Rome"

PROVE IT.

All completed, SAYS WHO? A CATHOLIC?

Everyone you going to quote is a CATHOLIC.

If Joe Blow says look the bible is this book and that book, and on his word its true and where you get your canon of scripture, Same Joe Blow believes in real presence and is catholic.

I double dog dare you to show us that "validation". The guy signing off on what is canon.

From who do we know what is canon and verified, is just another nail in the coffin.

Please by all means tell us.

Maybe it was Baptist-Bill. Early church father Baptist-Bill he wrote down the 66 books......and said look I have a complete bible.

 

[Yeshua1]

"The Bible, real one of the canon 66 books, were all compelted by end of first century, were accepted as scripture WAY before validated by Rome"

PROVE IT.

All completed, SAYS WHO? A CATHOLIC?

Everyone you going to quote is a CATHOLIC.

If Joe Blow says look the bible is this book and that book, and on his word its true and where you get your canon of scripture, Same Joe Blow believes in real presence and is catholic.

I double dog dare you to show us that "validation". The guy signing off on what is canon.

From who do we know what is canon and verified, is just another nail in the coffin.

Please by all means tell us.

Maybe it was Baptist-Bill. Early church father Baptist-Bill he wrote down the 66 books......and said look I have a complete bible.

The Early Christian Church was much closer to being Baptist than Catholic in doctrines/practices, and any church historian who is wanting to be tru to evidence knows that the canon books of the Bible were already in use/circulating/being quoted by end of the first, early second century!

 

[utilyan]

The Early Christian Church was much closer to being Baptist than Catholic in doctrines/practices, and any church historian who is wanting to be tru to evidence knows that the canon books of the Bible were already in use/circulating/being quoted by end of the first, early second century!

PROVE IT. Show me some history right here. QUOTED BY WHO? Show us the evidence someone has the canon of books. Show us the practice of going to church. Show us early Christian altar calls.

Quote me some history brother. Lets prove those Catholics wrong.

Show these Catholics you know history and that you are not some uneducated person who can't think for himself.

Show these Catholics the names of early Baptists with list of canon of scripture.

Ill be the first one to bang away at the catholic church. Go get me that history.

 

[Yeshua1]

PROVE IT. Show me some history right here. QUOTED BY WHO? Show us the evidence someone has the canon of books. Show us the practice of going to church. Show us early Christian altar calls.

Quote me some history brother. Lets prove those Catholics wrong.

Show these Catholics you know history and that you are not some uneducated person who can't think for himself.

Show these Catholics the names of early Baptists with list of canon of scripture.

Ill be the first one to bang away at the catholic church. Go get me that history.

The Jews at the thime of Jesus already had the canon of the OT in place, and Jesus and His Apostles confirmed that....

The NT books that are in the 66 canonized books were all written by end of first century, and were already being circulated around and cited as inspired by ECF....

 

[utilyan]

The Jews at the thime of Jesus already had the canon of the OT in place, and Jesus and His Apostles confirmed that....

The NT books that are in the 66 canonized books were all written by end of first century, and were already being circulated around and cited as inspired by ECF....

Jews did not have canon this is even biblically proven, Give example the Sadducees only had 5 books to their scripture. But Jesus didn't call them a false religion. The Sadducees themselves made fun of Jesus and the Pharisees constructing the plot of the book of Tobit, a scripture you can't even find in your bible.

Christians the true complete Jews. Were the first to make a canon of scripture.

Christians did not leave the Jewish faith, we completed it



Biblically Jesus and the Apostles confirm the Septuagint. You and Jesus would not call the same thing scripture. That's easy to prove when you see them quote old testament it won't match your old testament, but it matches the Septuagint. Chances are the old testament in your bible is the PHARISEE murders of our lord approved cannon created decades after the death of Jesus on cross in response the growing Christian threat.



Lets show these catholic your not a chicken avoiding the challenge.

Common brother show these Catholics how wrong they are.

What history book are you quoting and who do they list as their source.

In history they got primary and secondary sources ect.

I can't say Peter invented the automobile can I?

I don't believe any ECF quoted the bible, Show me some quotes.

Google something.

 

[Yeshua1]

Jews did not have canon this is even biblically proven, Give example the Sadducees only had 5 books to their scripture. But Jesus didn't call them a false religion. The Sadducees themselves made fun of Jesus and the Pharisees constructing the plot of the book of Tobit, a scripture you can't even find in your bible.

Christians the true complete Jews. Were the first to make a canon of scripture.

Christians did not leave the Jewish faith, we completed it



Biblically Jesus and the Apostles confirm the Septuagint. You and Jesus would not call the same thing scripture. That's easy to prove when you see them quote old testament it won't match your old testament, but it matches the Septuagint. Chances are the old testament in your bible is the PHARISEE murders of our lord approved cannon created decades after the death of Jesus on cross in response the growing Christian threat.



Lets show these catholic your not a chicken avoiding the challenge.

Common brother show these Catholics how wrong they are.

What history book are you quoting and who do they list as their source.

In history they got primary and secondary sources ect.

I can't say Peter invented the automobile can I?

I don't believe any ECF quoted the bible, Show me some quotes.

Google something.

The Jews at the time of Jesus had already confirmed the canon of the OT, and Jesus used that hebrew Scripture as his own Bible...

The Church of Rome did NOT give to us the Bible, Jesus and His Apostles did, and that was recogized way before Rome agreed with tht list!

 

[utilyan]

The Jews at the time of Jesus had already confirmed the canon of the OT, and Jesus used that hebrew Scripture as his own Bible...

The Church of Rome did NOT give to us the Bible, Jesus and His Apostles did, and that was recogized way before Rome agreed with tht list!

You are tripping letting your bias against what is Catholic cloud your vision to what is true church/ true Rome.

The Church of ROME certainly gave you the bible. Without Rome there is no Romans. Rome is his Apostles.


Rather than always think of yourself as something always striving to live up to being the true church....or being close to it.....or separating Jesus and apostles to a differ group.

Learn to say WE are that Church Jesus Christ started, WE are obedient Jews who followed Christ, WE are Jesus and the apostles, We are that church one flesh with Jesus Christ, Ephesians 5.

When you see Jesus and the Apostles quote scripture, we know from the wording they are quoting the Septuagint.

Septuagint was already accepted by Jews for hundreds of years, Sadducees only first 5 books


2 timothy 1:7

7For God hath not given us the spirit of fear; but of power, and of love, and of a sound mind.

Proverbs 9:10 KJV - Masoretic

10The fear of the LORD is the beginning of wisdom: and the knowledge of the holy is understanding.

Proverbs 9:10 - Septuagint
10 The fear of the Lord is the beginning of wisdom, and the counsel of saints is understanding: for to know the law is the character of a sound mind.




James 4:6 KJV
6But he giveth more grace. Wherefore he saith, God resisteth the proud, but giveth grace unto the humble.

Proverbs 3:34 Septuigant
34 The Lord resists the proud; but he gives grace to the humble.

Proverbs 3:34 KJV-Masoretic
34Surely he scorneth the scorners: but he giveth grace unto the lowly.



With these verses not a big deal.

But the "official" Jewish canon was established by Pharisees (same folks who put Jesus to death) decades AFTER Jesus had died. Also old testament messiah prophecy was changed to point away from Jesus. All in response to the growing Christian threat.

On the glance it makes sense to have the official Jewish canon for old testament but certainly not one put together by folks anti-Jesus.

And then we see them quote the Septuagint how can we say the scripture Jesus and the apostles quote is false scripture?

 

[Yeshua1]

You are tripping letting your bias against what is Catholic cloud your vision to what is true church/ true Rome.

The Church of ROME certainly gave you the bible. Without Rome there is no Romans. Rome is his Apostles.


Rather than always think of yourself as something always striving to live up to being the true church....or being close to it.....or separating Jesus and apostles to a differ group.

Learn to say WE are that Church Jesus Christ started, WE are obedient Jews who followed Christ, WE are Jesus and the apostles, We are that church one flesh with Jesus Christ, Ephesians 5.

When you see Jesus and the Apostles quote scripture, we know from the wording they are quoting the Septuagint.

Septuagint was already accepted by Jews for hundreds of years, Sadducees only first 5 books


2 timothy 1:7

7For God hath not given us the spirit of fear; but of power, and of love, and of a sound mind.

Proverbs 9:10 KJV - Masoretic

10The fear of the LORD is the beginning of wisdom: and the knowledge of the holy is understanding.

Proverbs 9:10 - Septuagint
10 The fear of the Lord is the beginning of wisdom, and the counsel of saints is understanding: for to know the law is the character of a sound mind.




James 4:6 KJV
6But he giveth more grace. Wherefore he saith, God resisteth the proud, but giveth grace unto the humble.

Proverbs 3:34 Septuigant
34 The Lord resists the proud; but he gives grace to the humble.

Proverbs 3:34 KJV-Masoretic
34Surely he scorneth the scorners: but he giveth grace unto the lowly.



With these verses not a big deal.

But the "official" Jewish canon was established by Pharisees (same folks who put Jesus to death) decades AFTER Jesus had died. Also old testament messiah prophecy was changed to point away from Jesus. All in response to the growing Christian threat.

On the glance it makes sense to have the official Jewish canon for old testament but certainly not one put together by folks anti-Jesus.

And then we see them quote the Septuagint how can we say the scripture Jesus and the apostles quote is false scripture?

The true Church of Christ is NOT the church of Rome, for that church teaches a different/false Gospel!

There is NO historical evidence for the Papacy, not Apostolic succession, so the church of Rome os not even a real Christian church!

Christians within it yes, but the offical doctrines of that church places it outside Christianity!

 

[Adonia]

The true Church of Christ is NOT the church of Rome, for that church teaches a different/false Gospel!

There is NO historical evidence for the Papacy, not Apostolic succession, so the church of Rome os not even a real Christian church!

Christians within it yes, but the offical doctrines of that church places it outside Christianity!

You are simply wrong. There was but one Universal (Catholic) Christian Church that grew out of the original Apostles. The Bishops of that were the one's who called into being the various synods and councils of the One Universal Christian Church to decide all the things that were popping up theologically. From the Canon of Sacred Scripture to the heresies that reared up from time to time, they decided them all. The head Bishop was located in Rome and this is irrefutable history that cannot be denied by anyone.

 

[Martin Marprelate]

The Church of ROME certainly gave you the bible. Without Rome there is no Romans. Rome is his Apostles.

Ahem. I think you'll find that without Corinth there is no Corinthians and without Philippi there is no Philippians. So what? By your questionable logic, since there are two letters to Corinth it must be twice as important as Rome.

Without the Holy Spirit there are no NT letters, whether by Paul or anyone else.

 

[Martin Marprelate]

You are simply wrong. There was but one Universal (Catholic) Christian Church that grew out of the original Apostles. The Bishops of that were the one's [sic] who called into being the various synods and councils of the One Universal Christian Church to decide all the things that were popping up theologically. From the Canon of Sacred Scripture to the heresies that reared up from time to time, they decided them all. The head Bishop was located in Rome and this is irrefutable history that cannot be denied by anyone.

I think you'll find it can.