Romans 1 and reprobation

[glfredrick]

I think you miss the mark here:

Romans 4:1-5 (NKJV)
Abraham chose to believe what God reveled to him. We choose to believe God when the Holy Spirit revels the Gospel to us, or we choose not to believe and continue on in wrath.

Thanks be to God He, in His sovereignty has chosen to save those who believe the Gospel of the Lord Jesus Christ! raying:

You cannot escape the fact that God came -- FIRST -- to Abraham, and that any action of faith in Abraham after that was based in God's work IN Abraham.

 

[quantumfaith]

You cannot escape the fact that God came -- FIRST -- to Abraham, and that any action of faith in Abraham after that was based in God's work IN Abraham.

God comes first to any and all who believe.

 

[Skandelon]

Ron, are you freed from the power of sin? The motive of one who comes to Christ should be both, a "pass from hell" and the desire to be pleasing to the God we both worship.

and

Ron that was not my experience. I wanted to be free from the present consequences of my sin as well as the future consequences. I came because I feared hell, not because I hated sin or loved God. I loved sin even while turning to God, but I did not love what it brought me. I did not come because I wanted to be free from sin itself, just its wages here and later. After salvation I now want to be free from my sin, but not before.

:thumbsup:

You are both correct. Jarthur and Ron have tried to make this an "either or" proposition, when clearly a "both and." We are saved from the consequences of sin which is the wrath of God, so there was nothing wrong with saying we are saved from God Wrath (as I showed even Paul said it), but apparently Jarthur just wants to disagree with me about something, when in reality he should be disagreeing with Paul who said the exact same thing.

 

[Jarthur001]

I think you miss the mark here:

Romans 4:1-5 (NKJV)
Abraham chose to believe what God reveled to him. We choose to believe God when the Holy Spirit revels the Gospel to us, or we choose not to believe and continue on in wrath.

I gave you one passage. Lets look at that again and look at another.

2Joshua said to all the people, "Thus says the LORD, the God of Israel, 'From ancient times your fathers lived beyond the River, namely, Terah, the father of Abraham and the father of Nahor, and they served other gods.
3'Then I took your father Abraham from beyond the River, and led him through all the land of Canaan, and multiplied his descendants and gave him Isaac.

14"Now, therefore, fear the LORD and serve Him in sincerity and truth; and put away the gods which your fathers served beyond the River and in Egypt, and serve the LORD.

Isaiah 51:1, 2

1"Listen to me, you who pursue righteousness,
Who seek the LORD:
Look to the rock from which you were hewn
And to the quarry from which you were dug.
2"Look to Abraham your father
And to Sarah who gave birth to you in pain;
When he was but one I called him,
Then I blessed him and multiplied him."

Gen 31

17Then Jacob arose and put his children and his wives upon camels;
18and he drove away all his livestock and all his property which he had gathered, his acquired livestock which he had gathered in Paddan-aram, to go to the land of Canaan to his father Isaac.
19When Laban had gone to shear his flock, then Rachel stole the household idols that were her father's.

This story in Genesis 31 shows that Abraham's relatives still owned and cherished idols at least three generations after God had called Abrahamout of Mesopotamia.

It was Abraham whom God chose to be the father of many nations. Believers are like Abraham. There is nothing in us to commend us to God. And yet God loves us. Just as He sought Abraham, He seeks to draw us into fellowship with Himself.


Abraham's faith was preceded by God's call. God called him when he was without faith and promised to bless him. Abraham believed God and set out on the journey to Canaan.



Actually, the call to Abraham came twice, once when he was in Ur of the Chaldees (Acts 7:2-4), and once, years later, when he was in Haran.

1Now the LORD said to Abram, "Go from your country and your kindred and your father’s house to the land that I will show you. 2 And I will make of you a great nation, and I will bless you and make your name great, so that you will be a blessing. 3 I will bless those who bless you, and him who dishonors you I will curse, and in you all the families of the earth shall be blessed."
4So Abram went, as the LORD had told him, and Lot went with him. Abram was seventy-five years old when he departed from Haran.

 

[Jarthur001]

:thumbs::thumbs::thumbs:

I rest my case.

 

[Jarthur001]

You cannot escape the fact that God came -- FIRST -- to Abraham, and that any action of faith in Abraham after that was based in God's work IN Abraham.

I don't see how anyone can deny this. In fact most non-Calvinist believe this. But...as we have seen some are driven my their own man made ideas.

 

[Jarthur001]

God comes first to any and all who believe.

you mean like Paul? Like Peter?

 

[Skandelon]

No you have not. You want to make some sins less than others, and some sinners greater than others.

NO I'M NOT. Please pay attention brother. I really am trying to find common ground but it's like you just want to disagree with me so badly you can't understand my words.

Abraham is just a sinful as anyone. He has fallen short and if not for the grace of God he would die and go to hell, OK???? What else do I have to say to get you to understand my affirmation of that.

While man may see greater sinners, God sees only sinners. You break one law, you are guilty of all laws..(James)

We are in agreement on this point. The break the law and according to the law of righteousness the ALL fall short. Even Abraham and all the examples I have point to. OK?????

God came to Abraham because Abraham was chosen by God. One of my girls saw this on her own at the age of 5. She came and asked, "why did God choose Abraham?"

Finally!!! YES. This is all I have been saying. This is our point of contention. You acknowledge that ABE does "come to God," while the people in Romans 1 denied Him as God. So he didn't do what the people in Rom. 1 did, he SINNED (broke the law) but he still acknowledged God and "came to him." You teach that is because God elected him and effectually caused him to do so, which is fine. I know that is what you believe, but it still provides a qualification that there were some men who did acknowledge God as God and who didn't deny Him as those in Rom. 1 did. Do you understand NOW?

Follow me without trying to find disagreement at every turn:

All are sinners and unrighteous according to Law! (even Abraham)
Some are justified according to their faith. (like Abraham)
The point of our contention why some believe and other don't (freely/effectually)

It is impossible to understand Abraham's faith without realizing that there was nothing in Abraham that commended him to God. God does not look down from heaven to find a person who has a bit of divine righteousness or a bit of faith and then say, "Oh, isn't it wonderful! I've found somebody with a bit of faith. I think I'll save him." When God looks down from heaven He sees that all men are without faith, and He passes a universal judgment: "They are all gone out of the way, they are together become unprofitable; there is none that doeth good, no, not one". That included Abraham.

Now, this is our point of contention. Finally we are getting there. We are in disagreement over the ability of man to "freely" believe the revelation of God, NOT WHETHER OR NOT ALL MEN ARE SINNERS (UNRIGHTEOUS) OR NOT. Now that we have both acknowledge that not all men are unbelievers who have rebelled to the point of being "given over to their unbelieving rebellion" we can move on to talk about why some believe and others don't, rather than IF some believe and others don't.

I know, I know, I still don't "get it," but I know what you are saying. You are saying Abraham would have been an unbeliever and would have rebelled like those in Romans 1 if God hadn't chosen him and effectually called him to faith, but if you go back and read what I've been saying from the beginning I have acknowledged that all along as your view and as being the point of our contention. It is not that difficult.

No you are wrong. Do you understand what hardening means? In Heb's 3, believers are told to watch not to harden their hearts. When we rebell, we harden.

I agree, believers too can grown hardened, and that brings up a whole new list of arguments. Such as, is it even possible for the elect to grow hardened and rebel?

See, you do not get it. I have said it over and over and still you do not get the reformed view. All of mankind are reprobates. This is why I asked do you covet. Or...are you boastful. This is list in the list Paul says are signs of reprobates.

The elect are reprobates too? I know you believe all WOULD be reprobates if NOT for God's electing them (which I acknowledge before), but surely you are not saying all people, even the elect, are reprobates, are you?

NO!! Abraham is not even talked about.

I know he is not talked about, he is merely an example of someone who lived and died while acknowledging, loving, believing in and pleasing God (unlike the people of Romans 1). Why did Abe believe? That answer is the point of our contention, NOT IF HE BELIEVED OR NOT!!!

 

[Ron Wood]

Ron, are you freed from the power of sin? The motive of one who comes to Christ should be both, a "pass from hell" and the desire to be pleasing to the God we both worship.

Yes and no. Sin no longer dominates my being because I am a new creation in Christ. That new creation is Christ in me the hope of glory.Col. 1:27 It is that seed of Christ that cannot sin because it is born of God, 1John 3:9. It is the new man, which after God is created in righteousness and true holiness. It is the divne nature of which I am partaker of. 2Pet.1:4 That's the yes part but the no part is that Ron Wood is still in me as well. And Ron Wood is evil to the core. He fights constantly to regain dominion and sticks his evil finger into everything I do. He can't be reformed or made better for he is nothing but sin. I can't take him to the hospital of religion to find some medicine to make him well for he cannot be cured. The only thing I can do with Ron Wood is take him to the cross to be crucified with Christ. Gal. 2:20


I almost forgot to answer the second part of your post. Show me one example of anyone in the Scriptures who were scared into the Kingdom of God. The Lord doesn't drive us into the Kingdom by fear He leads us by love. It is the goodnes of God that leads us to repentance. Rom.2:4

 

[BobinKy]

Therefore if any man be in Christ, he is a new creature:
old things are passed away;
behold, all things are become new (2 Cor. 5:17; KJB).



Who Am I, sung by Casting Crowns​

 

[freeatlast]

Yes and no. Sin no longer dominates my being because I am a new creation in Christ. That new creation is Christ in me the hope of glory.Col. 1:27 It is that seed of Christ that cannot sin because it is born of God, 1John 3:9. It is the new man, which after God is created in righteousness and true holiness. It is the divne nature of which I am partaker of. 2Pet.1:4 That's the yes part but the no part is that Ron Wood is still in me as well. And Ron Wood is evil to the core. He fights constantly to regain dominion and sticks his evil finger into everything I do. He can't be reformed or made better for he is nothing but sin. I can't take him to the hospital of religion to find some medicine to make him well for he cannot be cured. The only thing I can do with Ron Wood is take him to the cross to be crucified with Christ. Gal. 2:20


I almost forgot to answer the second part of your post. Show me one example of anyone in the Scriptures who were scared into the Kingdom of God. The Lord doesn't drive us into the Kingdom by fear He leads us by love. It is the goodnes of God that leads us to repentance. Rom.2:4

Ron I mean you no disrespect, but what you are saying is the exact thing that 1 John is speaking against. Your view about sin and the new man is the gnostic view that John condemns. john 3:9 is about the actual person who is born again. he no longer continues to practice sin. it is not saying that the new creation is sinless and the old man is still a sinner. That is the view John n is condemning.

Your second part is also incorrect. I can testify to that. I came to God out of fear of hell as well as being tired of what my sin dealt me, but i still loved my sin so did not come out of love for Him. You asked for an example of anyone coming out of fear. Read the book of Acts on Pentecost. Those men cried out after they heard that they murdered their Messiah "what must we do to be saved"? they came out of fear. So while it is from His goodness that he leads us to Himself it can be out of fear that we accept.

 

[Ron Wood]

Ron I mean you no disrespect, but what you are saying is the exact thing that 1 John is speaking against. Your view about sin and the new man is the gnostic view that John condemns. john 3:9 is about the actual person who is born again. he no longer continues to practice sin. it is not saying that the new creation is sinless and the old man is still a sinner. That is the view John n is condemning.

Your second part is also incorrect. I can testify to that. I came to God out of fear of hell as well as being tired of what my sin dealt me, but i still loved my sin so did not come out of love for Him. You asked for an example of anyone coming out of fear. Read the book of Acts on Pentecost. Those men cried out after they heard that they murdered their Messiah "what must we do to be saved"? they came out of fear. So while it is from His goodness that he leads us to Himself it can be out of fear that we accept.

OK. I have been called a lot of things ovr the years. It has caused me to develop a thick skin.

 

[freeatlast]

OK. I have been called a lot of things ovr the years. It has caused me to develop a thick skin.

Thick skin usually means a hard head. Your view is gnostic in nature. It is not an insult. It is a strong admonition with the hope you will see what you are saying. John is saying that those who are born again no longer sin as a practice or way of life. here is one of the best explaination i have heard;
http://gracelifepulpit.media.s3.amazonaws.com/GL-2011-02-20-DG.mp3

 

[glfredrick]

God comes first to any and all who believe.

True that, Quantum, but that is not the way those in the Arminian camp typically argue, is it? God is first, except that God only does what He sees humans doing first... Isn't that it?

In Abraham's issue, it has been demonstrated positively from other Scripture that God elected and effectually called Abraham (Abram) out of the midst of pagan worship, which his father also practiced when they all lived in Ur.

Based on that election and the faith that followed, Abraham lived a life that honored God. But he didn't have a lick of faith in the God of the Bible (which was not yet written in Abram's day, to be sure, but just so we know which God we are speaking of) because he didn't know that God until that God called his name.

 

[Ron Wood]

Thick skin usually means a hard head. Your view is gnostic in nature. It is not an insult. It is a strong admonition with the hope you will see what you are saying. John is saying that those who are born again no longer sin as a practice or way of life. here is one of the best explaination i have heard;
http://gracelifepulpit.media.s3.amazonaws.com/GL-2011-02-20-DG.mp3

Yep. About as hard as they come. I am no novice and I have spent many years in prayerful Bible study coming to the views I have. I am not interested in changing them. I know what John is talking about and what I have said is not in the least gnostic.

 

[quantumfaith]

True that, Quantum, but that is not the way those in the Arminian camp typically argue, is it? God is first, except that God only does what He sees humans doing first... Isn't that it?

In Abraham's issue, it has been demonstrated positively from other Scripture that God elected and effectually called Abraham (Abram) out of the midst of pagan worship, which his father also practiced when they all lived in Ur.

Based on that election and the faith that followed, Abraham lived a life that honored God. But he didn't have a lick of faith in the God of the Bible (which was not yet written in Abram's day, to be sure, but just so we know which God we are speaking of) because he didn't know that God until that God called his name.

And what is that scripture teaches us as to "why" righteousness was credited to him, because he "believed". God calls, we respond (or not) Do you think that the election and call of Abraham is the normative experience?

 

[freeatlast]

Yep. About as hard as they come. I am no novice and I have spent many years in prayerful Bible study coming to the views I have. I am not interested in changing them. I know what John is talking about and what I have said is not in the least gnostic.

Certainly then you are of the elite even by your own standards. 1Cor 10:12

 

[glfredrick]

And what is that scripture teaches us as to "why" righteousness was credited to him, because he "believed". God calls, we respond (or not) Do you think that the election and call of Abraham is the normative experience?

Yes, albeit, magnified somewhat in Abram's state. The effectual call of God can come in as many ways as there are people to be called, but it always has one like tendency -- it works to call that individual to God.

The call is always "supernatural" in that it can be expressed through the words of a very human preacher (even one who is not preaching a true gospel, or preaching for false motives -- ala Paul) but is carried into the lost soul by none other than the Holy Spirit. Can it be resisted? Not if God desires otherwise, but the Scriptures are full of incidents where God obviously had a different timetable than did man, yet in the end, God always had His way. Jonah is a classic example! Even in his Resistance, God placed him right where He wanted him to be.

 

[convicted1]

This post is for both Bro. Ron Wood and Bro. freeatlast:

Sin no longer dominates my being because I am a new creation in Christ. That new creation is Christ in me the hope of glory.Col. 1:27 It is that seed of Christ that cannot sin because it is born of God, 1John 3:9. It is the new man, which after God is created in righteousness and true holiness. It is the divne nature of which I am partaker of. 2Pet.1:4

I really like this right here that you posted!! :thumbs:

But lets go a little further:

2 Cor. 5:17 Therefore if any man be in Christ, he is a new creature: old things are passed away; behold, all things are become new.

18 And all things are of God, who hath reconciled us to himself by Jesus Christ, and hath given to us the ministry of reconciliation;

19 To wit, that God was in Christ, reconciling the world unto himself, not imputing their trespasses unto them; and hath committed unto us the word of reconciliation.

20 Now then we are ambassadors for Christ, as though God did beseech you by us: we pray you in Christ's stead, be ye reconciled to God.

1 John 3:9 Whosoever is born of God doth not commit sin; for his seed remaineth in him: and he cannot sin, because he is born of God.

The inward man is "born of God" and CAN NOT sin!! Praise His sweet name!! I am posting this for you Bro. Ron, and for Bro. freeatlast, because he seems to be at odds with what you posted.

If the inward man can sin, then they who believe so, then would have to advocate a "fall from grace", which I think is impossible!!

Ezek. 18:4 Behold, all souls are mine; as the soul of the father, so also the soul of the son is mine: the soul that sinneth, it shall die.

Ezek. 18: 20 The soul that sinneth, it shall die. The son shall not bear the iniquity of the father, neither shall the father bear the iniquity of the son: the righteousness of the righteous shall be upon him, and the wickedness of the wicked shall be upon him.

So if our soul sins after we are born again/born from above, then you would have a "fall from grace", Bro. freeatlast.

That's the yes part but the no part is that Ron Wood is still in me as well. And Ron Wood is evil to the core. He fights constantly to regain dominion and sticks his evil finger into everything I do. He can't be reformed or made better for he is nothing but sin. I can't take him to the hospital of religion to find some medicine to make him well for he cannot be cured. The only thing I can do with Ron Wood is take him to the cross to be crucified with Christ. Gal. 2:20

I can't get "myself" out of the way, either, Brother!! I have to pray to Him daily to forgive me of my sins that I commit in my body, but my soul has been set free from the law of sin and death!!

I almost forgot to answer the second part of your post. Show me one example of anyone in the Scriptures who were scared into the Kingdom of God. The Lord doesn't drive us into the Kingdom by fear He leads us by love. It is the goodnes of God that leads us to repentance. Rom.2:4

Well, if I would have never been afraid of dying and going to hell, I would have stayed in my sins, Brother Ron!! God showed me where I was headed to, and I sure didn't like the destination.....too hot for my liking!!

Psalm 111:10 The fear of the LORD is the beginning of wisdom: a good understanding have all they that do his commandments: his praise endureth for ever.

Proverbs 1:7The fear of the LORD is the beginning of knowledge: but fools despise wisdom and instruction.

Proverbs 9:10 The fear of the LORD is the beginning of wisdom: and the knowledge of the holy is understanding.

Proverbs 14:16 A wise man feareth, and departeth from evil: but the fool rageth, and is confident.

Proverbs 16:6 By mercy and truth iniquity is purged: and by the fear of the LORD men depart from evil.

So there is much biblical support of being afraid of the consequences of death and hell.

But I did like this post!! I hope that this does not upset you, Bro. freeatlast!! Just think and study on the "inward man" and see that he is make perfect by the blood of Christ, whereas our natural body hasn't received the blood of Christ. It will be made perfect when Jesus calls it out of the ground, and will be likened unto His most glorious body!! That's shoutin' ground right there!! :thumbs:

i am I AM's!!

Willis

 

[Robert Snow]

You cannot escape the fact that God came -- FIRST -- to Abraham, and that any action of faith in Abraham after that was based in God's work IN Abraham.

I'm not every trying to escape the fact that God came first. In fact, God came first in every situation. He was here before any of us, but I saw no reason to state the obvious.