Romans 11 Continuation

[Van]

Van said: ↑
Those chosen had not bowed the knee when chosen. Thus a gracious choice based on faith and not works.

The Archangel said:
This is not what Paul says; it is not what 1 Kings 19 says. I know you want it to say what you claim it says, but you’re attempting to label a triangle as a square by reading into the text that they are the same thing.

Scripture says:
(NASB Romans 11:4-5) 4 But what is the divine response to him? “I have kept for Myself seven thousand men who have not bowed the knee to Baal.” 5 In the same way then, there has also come to be at the present time a remnant according to God’s gracious choice.

1) Paul says the "remnant" came into being at the present time according to God" gracious choice. Therefore the choosing that produced the remnant occurred at the present time and not before the foundation of the world. This conclusion is a logical necessity.

2) Paul says the 7000 who have not bowed their knee to Baal were kept in the same way. Thus a gracious choice based on faith for they had not turned to Baal. When were they chosen? At the time they had not bowed a knee to Baal. This conclusion is also a logical necessity.

3) Calvinists have been claiming Paul was either mistaken or did not mean what he said for years and years to once again hide the fact scripture teaches God makes conditional elections based on faith.

 

[Van]

Here is the analysis and commentary on Romans 11:1-10 by Van:

1: His people refers to those chosen under the promise of the Old Covenant, believing Jews. Not all of the blood line descendants of Abraham.

2: His people (believing Jews) whom He foreknew (as part of the Old Covenant promise). Thus they were part of His previously formulated redemption plan under the Old Covenant Promise, not the Law.

3: Some of Abraham's descendants rejected God and killed His prophets. These were not part of "His people."

4: But from among the blood line descendants, God chose 7000 based on the condition of their faith in Him, for they had not bowed the knee to Baal.

5: At the time of Paul's writing of Romans, there had come to a a remnant, in the same way, or in other words according to God's choice of believing Jews.

6. An election based on faith is a gracious choice, and is not an election based on works.

7. Those seeking the promise by works were hardened, but those seeking the promise by faith were chosen. Note the timing of the choice, at the present time, rather than before creation.

8: The temporary hardening is as described in the OT.

9: The temporary hardening is as described elsewhere in the OT.

10: Note the duration of the hardening appears to last the lifetime of the individuals hardened at that time, rather than the hardening of all Jews for an unspecified period of time. Thus the hardening ended many many years ago.

Study the passage and see what fits with the actual scripture.

 

[Van]

Continuing Romans 11 verses 11-16: (NASB)
11 "I say then, they did not stumble so as to fall, did they? May it never be! But by their transgression salvation has come to the Gentiles, to make them jealous. 12 Now if their transgression is riches for the world and their failure is riches for the Gentiles, how much more will their fullness be! 13 But I am speaking to you who are Gentiles. Inasmuch then as I am an apostle of Gentiles, I magnify my ministry, 14 if somehow I might move to jealousy my fellow countrymen and save some of them. 15 For if their rejection is the reconciliation of the world, what will their acceptance be but life from the dead? 16 If the first piece of dough is holy, the lump is also; and if the root is holy, the branches are too."

11) The idea is the Jews made the wrong choice to reject the gospel, but they can change their minds because the error is recoverable and not irredeemable.

12) "Now if their transgression is riches for the world and their failure is riches for the Gentiles, how much more will their fullness be! Transgression refers (I believe) to the Jews rejecting Christ, and thus the apostles take the gospel to the world (non-Jews) which provides God's riches to the world, and (I believe) their failure (diminishment) refers to the hardening of the unbelieving Jews provides God's riches to the Gentiles (again non-Jews). More riches for everyone occurs when the Jews obtain "fullness." This refers to the end of their hardening and therefore the obtaining the blessings from Christ

13) Paul says his primary ministry is to the Gentiles, but will be magnified if ...

14) If I move to jealousy my countrymen (clearly indicating the hardening ends during Paul's life and ministry) resulting in the salvation of some Jews,

15) Because of the Jewish rejection enhanced by the hardening, more in the non-Jew "world" obtained reconciliation. But even better, enhanced by jealousy, Jewish salvations bring life to those who were dead.

16) God is holy so even when He hardens, the result short term and long term is holy.

 

[Alan Gross]

Philip Mauro : The Hope of Israel (1922) Free Online Books @ PreteristArchive.com, The Internet's Only Balanced Look at Preterism and Preterist Eschatology

"Not giving heed to Jewish fables"
- Titus 1:14



Introduction:

"There are certain Prophetic passages in the Old Testament, which, apart from the light afforded by the New, might be taken as relating to "Israel after the flesh," and as foretelling the restoration, at some future day, of their national greatness.

The erroneous doctrine of the teachers of Israel was based upon an unspiritual interpretation of their own Scriptures; for "they know not the voices of their prophets which were read every sabbath day."

Foreword (Jewish Fables).

1. The Nature and Importance of the Question.

2. How are the Prophecies of Blessing to Israel to be Interpreted?

3. How the O.T. Prophecies concerning Israel were Interpreted by Paul.

4. What the Fathers of Israel were Looking for.

5. God's Warnings through Moses to His Earthly People.

6. God's Warnings through Moses (Continued).

7. God's Promises to the Children of Israel Fulfilled by Moses and Joshua.

8. Salvation in Zion : The Sure Mercies of David.

9. The Travail of Zion.

10. The New Covenant.

11. Ezekiel's Prophecies: Doom of Jerusalem, The Branch, Valley of Death.

12. Ezekiel's Temple; Where Did the Spirit Descend at Pentecost?

13. What the N.T. Teaches as to Future Mercies for the Jews.

14. The Hope of the Gospel, Christ's Personal Teaching.

15. Other N.T. Passages on the Future of Israel.

16. Where is the Promise of His Coming?

17. The Election hath Obtained it. Hath God Cast Away His People?

18. Building Again the Tabernacle of David.

19. Shall Israel Be Restored as a Nation?

20. The Millennium.

FORWARD

 

[Van]

The avalanche defense posts more nonsense than can be discussed. And if it is a copy and paste, the defense requires no study, meditation, or thoughtful response. All that is accomplished is to add to the length of the thread with the goal of getting the discussion terminated.

 

[Van]

Romans 11:17-24 NASB
17 But if some of the branches were broken off, and you, being a wild olive, were grafted in among them and became partaker with them of the rich root of the olive tree, 18 do not be arrogant toward the branches; but if you are arrogant, remember that it is not you who supports the root, but the root supports you. 19 You will say then, “Branches were broken off so that I might be grafted in.” 20 Quite right, they were broken off for their unbelief, but you stand by your faith. Do not be conceited, but fear; 21 for if God did not spare the natural branches, He will not spare you, either. 22 Behold then the kindness and severity of God; to those who fell, severity, but to you, God’s kindness, if you continue in His kindness; otherwise you also will be cut off. 23 And they also, if they do not continue in their unbelief, will be grafted in, for God is able to graft them in again. 24 For if you were cut off from what is by nature a wild olive tree, and were grafted contrary to nature into a cultivated olive tree, how much more will these who are the natural branches be grafted into their own olive tree?

17) Three questions arise from this verse: In the Olive Tree metaphor who or what are the natural branches, the grafted in branches and the rich or nourishing root of the Olive Tree? The natural branches are the blood-line descendants of Abraham, with those broken off being the unbelieving Jews. The wild branches are non-Jews, with those grafted in being believers. And the rich or nourishing root refers to God's provision to the believing branches.

18) The believing non-Jews must not look down upon the unbelieving Jews and remember it is God who graciously provides for us, and that grace is not of ourselves.

19) The unbelieving Jews were not broken off for your benefit.

20) Your graft into the tree was based on your faith. Beware that your faith was actually credited by God.

21) Unbelieving Jews were cut off and unbelieving non-Jews were never grafted in the promised covenant.

22) See the two sides, unbelievers receive severity but believers receive kindness, provided their faith is protected by the power of God. If not, they will be removed and burned.

23) Unbelieving Jews, if they come to their senses and believe, will also certainly be grafted in again. Here we have an interesting mix of the Old and New Covenants. It appears that blood-line Jews under the Old Covenant start out as part of the tree metaphorically, and then are broken off for unbelief, whereas non-Jews start out separated under the New Covenant, but are grafted into the tree based on their faith being credited as righteousness by God.

24) Since the gifts of God are irrevocable, those who first were promised the Olive Tree, can still be reconnected and receive that gift of salvation, even after being broken off under the Old Covenant.

Bottom line, those who were lost under the Old Covenant can be saved through the New Covenant.

 

[David Kent]

Daniel 12:1 And at that time shall Michael stand up, the great prince which standeth for the children of thy people: and there shall be a time of trouble, such as never was since there was a nation even to that same time: and at that time thy people shall be delivered, every one that shall be found written in the book.

Daniel's people, above, were the Believing Jews who fled the great tribulation in the AD 66-70 Roman war, therefore God's people.

 

[Van]

Romans 11:25-32 NASB
25 For I do not want you, brethren, to be uninformed of this mystery—so that you will not be wise in your own estimation—that a partial hardening has happened to Israel until the fullness of the Gentiles has come in; 26 and so all Israel will be saved; just as it is written,

“The Deliverer will come from Zion,
He will remove ungodliness from Jacob.”
27 “This is My covenant with them,
When I take away their sins.”

28 From the standpoint of the gospel they are enemies for your sake, but from the standpoint of God’s choice they are beloved for the sake of the fathers; 29 for the gifts and the calling of God are irrevocable. 30 For just as you once were disobedient to God, but now have been shown mercy because of their disobedience, 31 so these also now have been disobedient, that because of the mercy shown to you they also may now be shown mercy. 32 For God has shut up all in disobedience so that He may show mercy to all.

Analysis and commentary by Van:
25) The mystery or previously unrevealed truth is that a hardening of the unbelieving Jews will remain until the outreach caused by the hardening has had its intended affect on the Gentiles.

26) And so the door has not closed to Jews, Christ"s reconciliation will save both believing Jews and Gentiles. The hardening will end and the opportunity to accept the gospel will be restored.

27) This New Covenant for everyone restores broken off branches when Christ takes away their sins.

28) Jewish resistance brought difficulty to Christ's ministry, but Christ's ministry will bring Jewish believers into the ministry.

29) As pointed out before the gifts and calling of God are irrevocable.

30) The Jewish disobedience brought mercy to the Gentiles,

31) Thus now mercy may be shown to the Jews.

32) God's use of everyone's disobedience results in mercy being shown to all.

 

[Alan Gross]

The avalanche defense posts more nonsense than can be discussed. And if it is a copy and paste, the defense requires no study, meditation, or thoughtful response. All that is accomplished is to add to the length of the thread with the goal of getting the discussion terminated.

It's a reference.

One you will not benefit from.

Whoopee.

Could you state you ideas in mathematical formulas, so we can add up and analyze how The Bible doesn't say a nickels' worth in three months.

 

[David Kent]

Philip Mauro : The Hope of Israel (1922) Free Online Books @ PreteristArchive.com, The Internet's Only Balanced Look at Preterism and Preterist Eschatology

"Not giving heed to Jewish fables"
- Titus 1:14



Introduction:

"There are certain Prophetic passages in the Old Testament, which, apart from the light afforded by the New, might be taken as relating to "Israel after the flesh," and as foretelling the restoration, at some future day, of their national greatness.

The erroneous doctrine of the teachers of Israel was based upon an unspiritual interpretation of their own Scriptures; for "they know not the voices of their prophets which were read every sabbath day."

Foreword (Jewish Fables).

1. The Nature and Importance of the Question.

2. How are the Prophecies of Blessing to Israel to be Interpreted?

3. How the O.T. Prophecies concerning Israel were Interpreted by Paul.

4. What the Fathers of Israel were Looking for.

5. God's Warnings through Moses to His Earthly People.

6. God's Warnings through Moses (Continued).

7. God's Promises to the Children of Israel Fulfilled by Moses and Joshua.

8. Salvation in Zion : The Sure Mercies of David.

9. The Travail of Zion.

10. The New Covenant.

11. Ezekiel's Prophecies: Doom of Jerusalem, The Branch, Valley of Death.

12. Ezekiel's Temple; Where Did the Spirit Descend at Pentecost?

13. What the N.T. Teaches as to Future Mercies for the Jews.

14. The Hope of the Gospel, Christ's Personal Teaching.

15. Other N.T. Passages on the Future of Israel.

16. Where is the Promise of His Coming?

17. The Election hath Obtained it. Hath God Cast Away His People?

18. Building Again the Tabernacle of David.

19. Shall Israel Be Restored as a Nation?

20. The Millennium.

FORWARD

Philip Mauro was an early US dispensationalist. But using his lawyers mind to actualy look at the biblical evidence, he discarded that teaching as "Dispensational Error." The Petrerist site also has his earliest books when he was a dispensionalist. I don't consider him a preterist for as far as I could make out, he still believed antichrist is future,

I would recommend reading his book on the Seventy Weeks.

 

[Alan Gross]

Yeah, I don't know what a 'Pretr...' whatever is. Those pigeon hole names thrown around are so goofy.

I want to know what God Wants us Know.

When someone has a heart for God and Worshipping Him, they can find some Revelations in there.

Like how far off Dispen.. thing is, for example.

 

[Van]

Romans 11:33-36 NaSB
33 Oh, the depth of the riches both of the wisdom and knowledge of God! How unsearchable are His judgments and unfathomable His ways! 34 For who has known the mind of the Lord, or who became His counselor? 35 Or who has first given to Him that it might be paid back to him again? 36 For from Him and through Him and to Him are all things. To Him be the glory forever. Amen.

Analysis and commentary by Van:

33) According to the NASB translation choice, the "riches" in view are "wisdom" and "knowledge" of God. We acquire these as we mature and become more Christ-like in Christ.

34) God's wisdom and knowledge far surpasses our own.

35) We have given nothing to God to merit His gifts to us.

36) We must set aside our prideful view of ourselves to give the glory to God alone.

Summary of Romans 11:

God chooses believers (Jews or Gentiles) based on crediting their faith as righteousness. His ways are beyond our understanding, even when He hardened the unbelieving Jews, the result brought mercy to both the Gentiles and ultimately the Jews. To God be the glory!

 

[Alan Gross]

Abraham believed The Gospel, as The Payment for his sins, and Abraham's Faith in Jesus Christ Having Accomplished Eternal Salvation for him, by Jesus' Perfect Life Having Abraham's sin Placed on Him at The Cross to Die, be Buried and Resurrected, from Death to Life.

The Righteous Life that Jesus Lived was Substituted, for Abraham's sinful life, and Imputed and Credited to Abraham, for Christ's Sake, after Abraham's sin was Credited by God, as Paid by A Lamb Slain before The Foundation of The World.

The Salvation of Old Testament saints was Efficacious, by The Vicarious Accomplishment by Jesus, as if it Had Already Been Completed.

Abraham believed The Word of The Lord.

The Object of Abraham's Faith was Jesus, Who Accomplished Righteousness, by Living Perfect, without sin.

That Righteousness DID NOT EXIST in The Attributes of God, Prior to Jesus Being Born of a Virgin and Actually Living Perfectly.

However, The Saving Ability of God Gave The Old Testament saints The New Birth, by The Holy Spirit, and was not restricted by Time, any more than Jesus' Miracles.

 

[Van]

Yet another off topic post, filled with utter nonsense. The topic of this thread is the intended meaning of Romans 11.

Summary of Romans 11:

God chooses believers (Jews or Gentiles) based on crediting their faith as righteousness. His ways are beyond our understanding, even when He hardened the unbelieving Jews, the result brought mercy to both the Gentiles and ultimately the Jews. To God be the glory!

 

[Alan Gross]

Yet another off topic post, filled with utter nonsense. The topic of this thread is the intended meaning of Romans 11.

Summary of Romans 11:

God chooses believers (Jews or Gentiles) based on crediting their faith as righteousness. His ways are beyond our understanding, even when He hardened the unbelieving Jews, the result brought mercy to both the Gentiles and ultimately the Jews. To God be the glory!

Actually, my post is just dead nuts perfectly on topic and obliterates your inaccurate perversion like a hammer hitting a nail.

This would get you Disciplined from one of The Lord's Gospel churches, in a New York minute.

The issue would be, "Doctrinal Heresy".

God chooses believers (Jews or Gentiles) based on crediting their faith as righteousness.

God Chose Jews and Gentiles, in Eternity Past, based on The Good Pleasure of His Will.

The ONLY "RIGHTEOUSNESS" Abraham ever knew and knows today, was The Righteousness of Jesus Christ, WHO WAS THE OBJECT of Abraham's Faith.

And he believed in the Lord

The Targums of Onkelos and Jonathan are,

``in the Word of the Lord;''

in the essential Word of the Lord, in Christ the Lord his righteousness;

he believed in the promise of God, that he should have a seed, and a very numerous one;

he believed that the Messiah would spring from his seed;

he believed in him as his Saviour and Redeemer;

he believed in him for righteousness, and he believed in his righteousness as justifying him before God:

and he counted it to him for righteousness;

not the act of his faith, but the object of it;

and not the promise he believed,
but what was promised,

and his faith received,
even Christ and his righteousness

this was imputed to him without works,
and while he was an uncircumcised person,

for the proof of which the apostle produces this passage, ( Romans 4:3 Romans 4:10 Romans 4:23 Romans 4:24 ) ;

wherefore this is not to be understood of any action of his being esteemed and accounted a righteous one,

and he pronounced and acknowledged a righteous person on account of it;

"for Abram was not justified before God by his own works,

but by the righteousness of faith,
as all that believe are,

that is, by the righteousness of Christ
revealed to faith, and received by it:

what is imputed is without a man,
and the imputation of it

depends upon the will of another;

such the righteousness of Christ without works
imputed by God the Father.

This is the first time we read of believing,
and as early do we hear of imputed righteousness." Gill


Abraham believed The Gospel, as The Payment for his sins, and Abraham's Faith in Jesus Christ Having Accomplished Eternal Salvation for him, by Jesus' Perfect Life Having Abraham's sin Placed on Him at The Cross to Die, be Buried and Resurrected, from Death to Life.

The Righteous Life that Jesus Lived was Substituted, for Abraham's sinful life, and Imputed and Credited to Abraham, for Christ's Sake, after Abraham's sin was Credited by God, as Paid by A Lamb Slain before The Foundation of The World.

The Salvation of Old Testament saints was Efficacious, by The Vicarious Accomplishment by Jesus, as if it Had Already Been Completed.

Abraham believed The Word of The Lord.

The Object of Abraham's Faith was Jesus, Who Accomplished Righteousness, by Living Perfect, without sin.

That Righteousness DID NOT EXIST in The Attributes of God, Prior to Jesus Being Born of a Virgin and Actually Living Perfectly.

However, The Saving Ability of God Gave The Old Testament saints The New Birth, by The Holy Spirit, and was not restricted by Time, any more than Jesus' Miracles.

...

You don't have it within Bible Teaching standards
and demand to produce another Gospel.

...
over & over & over & over & over & over & over & over.
I thought I'd let you consider The Bible, as a Book that God Uses to Teach His Revelations; not your carnal flesh's.

 

[Van]

Yet another off topic post of harassment. Insinuating someone is a heretic if a blatant violation of the rules.
1) 1 Peter 2:9-10 precludes that God chose any individuals before creation, we all lived without mercy before we became His people.

2) No one said Abraham was declared righteous because of his faith. So yet another misrepresentation to derail discussion. Scripture says his faith was credited to him as righteousness, not that Abraham was declared righteous.

3) Scripture says Abraham believed God, thus in what God told him, it does not say nor suggest he understood the mystery of the gospel.

4) Ask yourself why did Abraham have to wait until after Christ died to be made perfect?

Summary of Romans 11:

God chooses believers (Jews or Gentiles) based on crediting their faith as righteousness. His ways are beyond our understanding, even when He hardened the unbelieving Jews, the result brought mercy to both the Gentiles and ultimately the Jews. To God be the glory!

 

[37818]

<snip>. . . sin was Credited by God, as Paid by A Lamb Slain before The Foundation of The World.

<Emphasis mine> Pinting out a false teaching.

The truth is, Revelation 13:8, ". . . of the Lamb slain from the foundation of the world. . . ." And Hebrews 9:26, ". . . but now once in the end of the world hath he appeared to put away sin by the sacrifice of himself. . . ."

 

[Alan Gross]

Yet another off topic post of harassment. Insinuating someone is a heretic if a blatant violation of the rules.
1) 1 Peter 2:9-10 precludes that God chose any individuals before creation, we all lived without mercy before we became His people.

2) No one said Abraham was declared righteous because of his faith. So yet another misrepresentation to derail discussion. Scripture says his faith was credited to him as righteousness, not that Abraham was declared righteous.

3) Scripture says Abraham believed God, thus in what God told him, it does not say nor suggest he understood the mystery of the gospel.

4) Ask yourself why did Abraham have to wait until after Christ died to be made perfect?

Summary of Romans 11:

God chooses believers (Jews or Gentiles) based on crediting their faith as righteousness. His ways are beyond our understanding, even when He hardened the unbelieving Jews, the result brought mercy to both the Gentiles and ultimately the Jews. To God be the glory!

Actually, my post is just dead nuts perfectly on topic and obliterates your inaccurate perversion like a hammer hitting a nail.

This would get you Disciplined from one of The Lord's Gospel churches, in a New York minute.

The issue would be, "Doctrinal Heresy".

You would not be worshipped for making up false teachings, as you request to be here, and would not be allowed to continue in fellowship.

The Lord Has Protection for His Gospel and Plan of Salvation, in His churches.

This board allows you to say whatever.

No reason to think you are being called a Heretic, here, but that is the reason why The Lord's churches would need to be Protected from you.

Nothing unusual.

Two different subjects.

 

[Alan Gross]

<Emphasis mine> Pinting out a false teaching.

The truth is, Revelation 13:8, ". . . of the Lamb slain from the foundation of the world. . . ." And Hebrews 9:26, ". . . but now once in the end of the world hath he appeared to put away sin by the sacrifice of himself. . . ."

What is 'the Truth'?

What are you saying?

 

[Van]

Actually, my post is just dead nuts perfectly on topic and obliterates your inaccurate perversion like a hammer hitting a nail.

This would get you Disciplined from one of The Lord's Gospel churches, in a New York minute.

The issue would be, "Doctrinal Heresy".

You would not be worshipped for making up false teachings, as you request to be here, and would not be allowed to continue in fellowship.

The Lord Has Protection for His Gospel and Plan of Salvation, in His churches.

This board allows you to say whatever.

No reason to think you are being called a Heretic, here, but that is the reason why The Lord's churches would need to be Protected from you.

Nothing unusual.

Two different subjects.

Yet another you., you,. you ad hominem post.
This post too is off topic, just nonsense to extend the length of the thread.
Claiming my view of Romans 11, is "your inaccurate perversion" is just another taint so post from another copy and paste poster.
Summary of Romans 11:

God chooses believers (Jews or Gentiles) based on crediting their faith as righteousness. His ways are beyond our understanding, even when He hardened the unbelieving Jews, the result brought mercy to both the Gentiles and ultimately the Jews. To God be the glory!