Romans 11 Continuation

[Van]

Read the verse you are arguing from sometime, if God Allows you to.

"But to him that worketh not, but believeth on him that justifieth the ungodly, his faith is counted for righteousness." Roman's 4:5

More nonsense.
Does the cited verse say Abraham was called out of unbelief into belief? Nope.

So yet another post of absurdity, just adding to the length of the thread.

 

[Alan Gross]

More nonsense.
Does the cited verse say Abraham was called out of unbelief into belief? Nope.

So yet another post of absurdity, just adding to the length of the thread.

Why don't you ever talk about there being anything to be 'saved from'?

Or 'saved to"?

You just say your' faith' is seen by God to have Equal Value to His Virgin Born Son's Perfect Life that Jesus Lived, under The Universal Law of God, and God, then, Has to 'Credit' your 'faith', as a substitute for A Perfect Sacrifice for sin, and Equal to Jesus, with no need of any Sacrifice.

That's pretty powerful stuff you got going on, there.

Impressive.

You are your own Savior that God then chooses.

Good thing He 'invited' you, so you could Glorify yourself to God.

Good going, big man.

 

[percho]

The above views are unbiblical.

1) Does scripture say or suggest "Abraham believed God because God had called him out of unbelief unto belief." Nope

2) Is the seed of Abraham the faith of Abraham? Nope

3) Faith (Pistis - noun in the dative) "πίστει, dative of means or of mode by faith or by believing, prompted, actuated, by faith, Hebrews 11:3f, 7-9, 17, 20-24, 27-29, 31; dative of cause, because of faith, Hebrews 11:5, 11, 30. " Therefore "by faith" is an accurate translation, whereas to faith is bogus.

1 Tim 1:13 Who was before a blasphemer, and a persecutor, and injurious: but I obtained mercy, because I did it ignorantly in unbelief.

Acts 9:3,4 And as he journeyed, he came near Damascus: and suddenly there shined round about him a light from heaven: And he fell to the earth, and heard a voice saying unto him, Saul, Saul, why persecutest thou me?

Here is Paul, in ignorant unbelief, approaching Damascus to persecute and do injury to those of the way.

Now is Paul about, to change his own mind, concerning Jesus of Nazareth or is Jesus by the power of the Holy Spirit three days hence going to translate Paul from unbelief unto belief?

Then Ananias answered, Lord, I have heard by many of this man, how much evil he hath done to thy saints at Jerusalem: And here he hath authority from the chief priests to bind all that call on thy name. 9:13,14

But the Lord said unto him, Go thy way: for he is a chosen vessel unto me, to bear my name before the Gentiles, and kings, and the children of Israel: For I will shew him how great things he must suffer for my name's sake. 15,16

And Ananias went his way and entered the house; and laying his hands on him he said, “Brother Saul, the Lord Jesus,[fn] who appeared to you on the road as you came, has sent me that you may receive your sight and be filled with the Holy Spirit.” Immediately there fell from his eyes something like scales, and he received his sight at once; and he arose and was baptized. So when he had received food, he was strengthened. Then Saul spent some days with the disciples at Damascus. Immediately he preached the Christ[fn] in the synagogues, that He is the Son of God. 17-20

God called Abraham out of the house of his father the worshiper of idols, unbelief, unto belief, to be a believer.

 

[Van]

Why don't you ever.... SNIP .

Yet another off topic post, more deflection from the truth.

 

[Van]

SNIP

Your views have no support from scripture. God credited Abraham's faith as righteousness,

You seem to have ignored Hebrews 11 faith, as dative of cause and dative of means. The OT Saints obtained approval with their faith from which actions flowed, thus by faith they did such and such.

 

[Alan Gross]

Yet another off topic post, more deflection from the truth.

Sin.

 

[Alan Gross]

Your views have no support from scripture. God credited Abraham's faith as righteousness,

You seem to have ignored Hebrews 11 faith, as dative of cause and dative of means. The OT Saints obtained approval with their faith from which actions flowed, thus by faith they did such and such.

Of the 25, or so, times I have seen your Decree about Abraham, I have never seen the verse quoted.

I have read it and quoted it several times.

What is wrong with you?

You snip God's Word.

 

[Van]

Of the 25, or so, times I have seen your Decree about Abraham, I have never seen the verse quoted.

I have read it and quoted it several times.

What is wrong with you?

You snip God's Word.

Yet another you, you, you post, a flagrant violation of the rules. And containing a fabricated false charge to boot.

Romans 11 provides evidence that God elects individuals based on their characteristics, such as having not bowed the knee to Baal. Romans 11 also demonstrates God's gracious choice based on faith is not an election based on works. Basically, Romans 11 shoots down fictions of Calvinism's TULIP such as unconditional election.

 

[Alan Gross]

Yet another you, you, you post, a flagrant violation of the rules. And containing a fabricated false charge to boot.

Romans 11 provides evidence that God elects individuals based on their characteristics, such as having not bowed the knee to Baal. Romans 11 also demonstrates God's gracious choice based on faith is not an election based on works. Basically, Romans 11 shoots down fictions of Calvinism's TULIP such as unconditional election.

I noticed sin is not mentioned in your little talks. No expection it will be. Too terrifying horrific, and the unthinkable.

Can't and don't quote full Scriptures for some frightening reason.

Maybe because you you you are a victim.

 

[percho]

Your views have no support from scripture. God credited Abraham's faith as righteousness,

You seem to have ignored Hebrews 11 faith, as dative of cause and dative of means. The OT Saints obtained approval with their faith from which actions flowed, thus by faith they did such and such.

By faith they passed through the Red sea as by dry land: which the Egyptians assaying to do were drowned.
By faith the harlot Rahab perished not with them that believed not, when she had received the spies with peace. And what shall I more say? for the time would fail me to tell of Gedeon, and of Barak, and of Samson, and of Jephthae; of David also, and Samuel, and of the prophets
You need to go back to Gen and read of the actions of these, and what about Samson tell me about his faith.

When translating a Greek noun in the dative case, you will often find it convenient to use a prepositional phrase beginning with "to..." or "for..." The accusative case will usually be translated as a direct object. This is the case of direct address. In the following sentence, "Son" would be in vocative.

In every instant of Hebrews 11, Westcott & Hort, translate, unto a trust

 

[percho]

Van here is a thought.

And what shall I more say? for the time would fail me to tell of Gedeon, and of Barak, and of Samson, and of Jephthae; of David also, and Samuel, and of the prophets: Who through faith subdued kingdoms, wrought righteousness, obtained promises, stopped the mouths of lions, Quenched the violence of fire, escaped the edge of the sword, out of weakness were made strong, waxed valiant in fight, turned to flight the armies of the aliens. Women received their dead raised to life again: and others were tortured, not accepting deliverance; that they might obtain a better resurrection:

Were all those inclusive in that passage, under law being kept, were they under the child - conductor? Were they shut up to the faith?

Gal 3:23-25 And before the coming of the faith, under law we were being kept, shut up to the faith about to be revealed, so that the law became our child-conductor -- to Christ, that by faith we may be declared righteous, and the faith having come, no more under a child-conductor are we, ----- Hebrews 11:32-35

 

[Alan Gross]

Van here is a thought.

And what shall I more say? for the time would fail me to tell of Gedeon, and of Barak, and of Samson, and of Jephthae; of David also, and Samuel, and of the prophets: Who through faith subdued kingdoms, wrought righteousness, obtained promises, stopped the mouths of lions, Quenched the violence of fire, escaped the edge of the sword, out of weakness were made strong, waxed valiant in fight, turned to flight the armies of the aliens. Women received their dead raised to life again: and others were tortured, not accepting deliverance; that they might obtain a better resurrection:

Were all those inclusive in that passage, under law being kept, were they under the child - conductor? Were they shut up to the faith?

Gal 3:23-25 And before the coming of the faith, under law we were being kept, shut up to the faith about to be revealed, so that the law became our child-conductor -- to Christ, that by faith we may be declared righteous, and the faith having come, no more under a child-conductor are we, ----- Hebrews 11:32-35

Looks like, 'faith', just means, 'think'.

If you 'think' about it.

Or, think you 'think about something.

Or, have faith in 'thinking' you believe that you imagine.

That 'thinking' can leave out The Work of Jesus as The Savior, or thinking there is any need for Him, in the first place.

What do you think?

Before the coming of thinking.

Shut up to think.

The think having come.

Just a thought.

 

[mailmandan]

Romans 11:22 NASB: Behold then the kindness and severity of God; to those who fell, severity, but to you, God’s kindness, if you continue in His kindness; otherwise you also will be cut off

Lets consider the assumptions used to misread this text.

1) Who fell, unbelieving Jews under the Old Covenant or believing Jews? Did those in view reject the gospel?
So it is obvious those who fell were unbelieving Jews under the Old Covenant who rejected the New Covenant gospel.

2) Is "continuing" in the faith something that provides salvation or something that proves salvation? Those that went out from us we not of us. Therefore, continuing simply proves a person has be born anew and therefore his or her faith is protected by the power of God. 1 Peter 1:3-5.

None of the "loss of salvation" under the New Covenant arguments stand up to study.

Professing Christians who are Gentiles are CORPORATELY in outward covenant with Christ so, it would appear that Romans 11 is speaking about the question of collective ecclesiology and not individual soteriology. I see the warning to this collective body, which is corporately joined to Christ and is in a covenant relationship, but how could this mean that every INDIVIDUAL in it is in saving union with Christ? Hence the "cut off." Union with Christ applies to the elect, and only for the elect are, "the gifts and the call of God are irrevocable." (vs. 29) But since non-elect covenant members are mixed in, Christ clearly appears to have non-elect branches, like Judas Iscariot (John 15:1-8) and while they may be joined outwardly in covenant with Christ, since they have professed faith in Jesus, the faith of some of them is spurious because they were never truly saved to begin with, even though they were among genuine believers. (1 John 2:19). So I don't see Romans 11:17-24 teaching that a genuine believer can lose their salvation.

 

[Van]

I noticed sin is not mentioned in your little talks. No expection it will be. Too terrifying horrific, and the unthinkable.

Can't and don't quote full Scriptures for some frightening reason.

Maybe because you you you are a victim.

Yet another you, you,you off topic post, another use of ad hominem, another waving of the surrender flag.

 

[Van]

By faith they passed through the Red sea as by dry land: which the Egyptians assaying to do were drowned.
By faith the harlot Rahab perished not with them that believed not, when she had received the spies with peace. And what shall I more say? for the time would fail me to tell of Gedeon, and of Barak, and of Samson, and of Jephthae; of David also, and Samuel, and of the prophets
You need to go back to Gen and read of the actions of these, and what about Samson tell me about his faith.

When translating a Greek noun in the dative case, you will often find it convenient to use a prepositional phrase beginning with "to..." or "for..." The accusative case will usually be translated as a direct object. This is the case of direct address. In the following sentence, "Son" would be in vocative.

In every instant of Hebrews 11, Westcott & Hort, translate, unto a trust

I think you may have sidestepped the dative of means and the dative of cause. It seems "convenient" to us the prepositional phrase beginning with "by".

 

[Alan Gross]

Yet another you, you,you off topic post, another use of ad hominem, another waving of the surrender flag.

Romans 11:35 "Or who hath first given to him, and it shall be recompensed unto him again?"

 

[Van]

Professing Christians who are Gentiles are CORPORATELY in outward covenant with Christ so, it would appear that Romans 11 is speaking about the question of collective ecclesiology and not individual soteriology. I see the warning to this collective body, which is corporately joined to Christ and is in a covenant relationship, but how could this mean that every INDIVIDUAL in it is in saving union with Christ? Hence the "cut off." Union with Christ applies to the elect, and only for the elect are, "the gifts and the call of God are irrevocable." (vs. 29) But since non-elect covenant members are mixed in, Christ clearly appears to have non-elect branches, like Judas Iscariot (John 15:1-8) and while they may be joined outwardly in covenant with Christ, since they have professed faith in Jesus, the faith of some of them is spurious because they were never truly saved to begin with, even though they were among genuine believers. (1 John 2:19). So I don't see Romans 11:17-24 teaching that a genuine believer can lose their salvation.

Thanks for presenting your views. I think Romans 11 has several applications for the doctrine of individual salvation. Note we are talking about the faith of individuals, and whether such faith has been credited as righteousness by God.

I do not object to the corporate inclusion of the Gentiles in the promise (blessings for the world). But the way corporate inclusion is fulfilled is by individual inclusion.

We agree no passage teaches loss of salvation, but only loss of service rewards, being burned up.

 

[percho]

I would like to revert back to the original question in the original thread concerning Israel of various verses and ask;

Can the following be cast aside relative to Romans 11?

Hear this word that the LORD hath spoken against you, O children of Israel, against the whole family which I brought up from the land of Egypt, saying, You only have I known of all the families of the earth: therefore I will punish you for all your iniquities. Amos 3:1,2

In the whole of the Word of God do we find God changing his mind concerning who you only are?

Once he wanted to totally cast them off and start with Moses yet what did Moses tell him.Ex 32:10-14
14 And the LORD repented of the evil which he thought to do unto his people.

Whoever the people of Romans 11 are, they are the same people of Amos 3 which was written around 750 BC.

God scattered the people of Amos 3:1 who had divided into two peoples among the gentiles (nations). One people, the house of Israel, scattered among the gentiles lost their identity among the gentiles and the other people, the house of Judah, kept their identity through the keeping of the feasts of the LORD. God caused some of the house of Judah to return to the promise land in order for Christ to be born in Bethlehem and die outside the gates of Jerusalem and be raised from the dead.

Side question. Does any of that above have anything to do with (Gal 3) That seed in one, Christ and before the coming of, the faith and after, the faith, having come?

Another relative question. Was Saul going down the road to Damascus, blind in unbelief? When did he receive his sight, unto belief? When did he become, of the faith, of Christ?

NKJV Acts 15:14 “Simon has declared how God at the first visited the Gentiles to take out of them a people for His name.
YLT Simeon did declare how at first God did look after to take out of the nations a people for His name,

Ezek 36 19 - And I scattered them among the heathen,(Same word for Gentiles) and they were dispersed through the countries: according to their way and according to their doings I judged them. And when they entered unto the heathen, whither they went, they But I had pity for mine holy name, which the house of Israel had profaned among the heathen, whither they went.profaned my holy name, when they said to them, These are the people of the LORD, and are gone forth out of his land. Therefore say unto the house of Israel, Thus saith the Lord GOD; I do not this for your sakes, O house of Israel, but for mine holy name's sake, which ye have profaned among the heathen, whither ye went. And I will sanctify my great name, which was profaned among the heathen, which ye have profaned in the midst of them; and the heathen shall know that I am the LORD, saith the Lord GOD, when I shall be sanctified in you before their eyes. For I will take you from among the heathen, and gather you out of all countries, and will bring you into your own land.

Now when God first began this was it all at once? Actually he began in Jerusalem with those of the house of Judah them expanded See Jeremiah 3 11-14 And the LORD said unto me, The backsliding Israel hath justified herself more than treacherous Judah. Go and proclaim these words toward the north, and say, Return, thou backsliding Israel, saith the LORD; and I will not cause mine anger to fall upon you: for I am merciful, saith the LORD, and I will not keep anger for ever. Only acknowledge thine iniquity, that thou hast transgressed against the LORD thy God, and hast scattered thy ways to the strangers under every green tree, and ye have not obeyed my voice, saith the LORD. Turn, O backsliding children, saith the LORD; for I am married unto you: and I will take you one of a city, and two of a family, and I will bring you to Zion:

 

[agedman]

Professing Christians who are Gentiles are CORPORATELY in outward covenant with Christ so, it would appear that Romans 11 is speaking about the question of collective ecclesiology and not individual soteriology. I see the warning to this collective body, which is corporately joined to Christ and is in a covenant relationship, but how could this mean that every INDIVIDUAL in it is in saving union with Christ? Hence the "cut off." Union with Christ applies to the elect, and only for the elect are, "the gifts and the call of God are irrevocable." (vs. 29) But since non-elect covenant members are mixed in, Christ clearly appears to have non-elect branches, like Judas Iscariot (John 15:1-8) and while they may be joined outwardly in covenant with Christ, since they have professed faith in Jesus, the faith of some of them is spurious because they were never truly saved to begin with, even though they were among genuine believers. (1 John 2:19). So I don't see Romans 11:17-24 teaching that a genuine believer can lose their salvation.

God never saved by corporation.

All redemption is individual, and then the individual is placed for a specific reason into the assembly.

Because folks desire to have some corporate salvation, they can discard the specific individual selection, the individual gift of faith, the individual responsibility of service, ...

Christ did not covenant nor did He die for a corporation. He died for the church - the ekklesia - the called out individuals added and banned together for His purpose.

 

[Van]

I would like to revert back to the original question in the original thread concerning Israel of various verses and ask;
SNIP
:

If you want to start a new thread, have at it. This thread is supposed to reflect the study of Romans 11.
Romans 11:4-5 commentary:
4: But from among the blood line descendants, God chose 7000 based on the condition of their faith in Him, for they had not bowed the knee to Baal.

5: At the time of Paul's writing of Romans, there had come to be a remnant, in the same way, or in other words according to God's gracious choice of believing Jews.

Romans 11 addresses the New Covenant and its impact on the OT promises.