No, I do not. I was trying to understand and state Amy's view.
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Romans 16:20 is a Strong Proof of Christ's 70 AD Return
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No, I do not. I was trying to understand and state Amy's view.
OldRegular
Well-Known Member
I did not think so; but I will give you my point of view. I believe the 1000 years represents the "Church" Age, a long indeterminate period of time. At the end of that period of time there will be a general resurrection and judgment of all the dead followed by the New Heavens and New Earth where God will "tabernacle" with all the redeemed of all time.[Revelation 21:3]
Just had to pipe in with a question - so who was this "man of sin"? Is it one of the persecuting Emperors of Rome? After 70 A.D., persecution actually got worse.
Further - where does the "binding of Satan" come into play? Is he supposedly bound now? Is the world less influenced by Satan today than it was 2000 years ago (or more)?
Plain reading then leads us to also address the 1000 years - If Christ returned (or not) in 70 A.D. with the destruction of the Temple - then just how long is 1000 years?
Where, in history, do the events/prophecies described in Revelation 6-19 come in to play? Or are they all figures/symbols explained away in unknown or unrecorded history?
Preterism actually leaves as many questions as Dispensational theology. They both require some "squeezing" - the difference being - one can look forward to literal fulfillments, while the other cans all the prophecies into relatively small and insignificant (or not) events that barely register as a blip on the radar screen of history.
I believe, OR, that the New Heavens and New Earth have already happened based, especially, on the writings of Paul. One case in point is 2 Cor. 5:16-17:
"Wherefore henceforth know we no man after the flesh: yea, though we have known Christ after the flesh, yet now henceforth know we him no more.
Therefore if any man be in Christ, he is a new creature [καινη κτισις] : old things are passed away; behold, all things are become new."
This ties in with Revelation 21:1:
"And I saw a new heaven and a new earth: for the first heaven and the first earth were passed away; and there was no more sea."
Many Bibles, like my NKJV, even have these linked as cross-references.
Point here is that we view jesus return as Him setting up the fullness of the Kingdom of God upon the earth, as truely his will will be done on earth as now in heaven!
So when did the reign of Christ here on earth start?
when was war abolished, death put down, and no more sickness etc?
When ALL peoples and ALL nations worshipped the One true God?
the Bible just seems to indicate that when jesus returns, will be MANY departing earth, graves openning up, jesus will be returning with the saints and angels etc, and that earth will experience world wide peace, poverty eliminated, famines/sickness etc
you HAVE to spiritualize all prophecy to say already happened!
Ahhh.. .now I see the rub.
One has to stick Jesus prophecy of the destruction of the Temple (assuming someone hasn't already chalked that up to actually applying to Jesus Himself as a prophecy of His crucifixion) with the Disciples' questions that follow as regarding the Church (many of the mysteries of such were still a secret to the Disciples).
Christ was giving a vision of what was to come for the Jews (thus the Jewish/Hebrew references). Why this chapter gets shoehorned into a framework that puts Christ's return at the destruction of the Temple is beyond me. It the claimed "plain reading" that so many cling to to defend this interpretation, the Word is crunched and mangled just as badly as some Dispensationalists have to wedge the Word to make their eschatology "fit".
It has been asked before - if Christ's return was indeed in 70 A.D. - then what of the 1000 year reign? Discounting that - then when and how was Satan bound? What time period of history really shows a marked restraint of Satan? Most certainly a thinking person would not claim that Satan is bound today. What about the removal of the Spirit of God?
One has to stick Jesus prophecy of the destruction of the Temple (assuming someone hasn't already chalked that up to actually applying to Jesus Himself as a prophecy of His crucifixion) with the Disciples' questions that follow as regarding the Church (many of the mysteries of such were still a secret to the Disciples).
Christ was giving a vision of what was to come for the Jews (thus the Jewish/Hebrew references). Why this chapter gets shoehorned into a framework that puts Christ's return at the destruction of the Temple is beyond me. It the claimed "plain reading" that so many cling to to defend this interpretation, the Word is crunched and mangled just as badly as some Dispensationalists have to wedge the Word to make their eschatology "fit".
It has been asked before - if Christ's return was indeed in 70 A.D. - then what of the 1000 year reign? Discounting that - then when and how was Satan bound? What time period of history really shows a marked restraint of Satan? Most certainly a thinking person would not claim that Satan is bound today. What about the removal of the Spirit of God?
When Scripture said it did.
Mat 28:18 And Jesus came and spake unto them, saying, All power is given unto me in heaven and in earth.
Heb 1:1 God, who at sundry times and in divers manners spake in time past unto the fathers by the prophets,
Heb 1:2 Hath in these last days spoken unto us by his Son, whom he hath appointed heir of all things, by whom also he made the worlds;
Heb 1:3 Who being the brightness of his glory, and the express image of his person, and upholding all things by the word of his power, when he had by himself purged our sins, sat down on the right hand of the Majesty on high;
When did this happen? When He had "Himself purged our sins". Did this happen already? Most certainly.
Psa 2:1 Why do the heathen rage, and the people imagine a vain thing?
Psa 2:2 The kings of the earth set themselves, and the rulers take counsel together, against the LORD, and against his anointed, saying,
Psa 2:3 Let us break their bands asunder, and cast away their cords from us.
Psa 2:4 He that sitteth in the heavens shall laugh: the Lord shall have them in derision.
Psa 2:5 Then shall he speak unto them in his wrath, and vex them in his sore displeasure.
Psa 2:6 Yet have I set my king upon my holy hill of Zion.
This last passage refers, of course, to Christ. He is described as reigning. The church in Acts understood it to be fulfilled in their own time.
Act 4:25 Who by the mouth of thy servant David hast said, Why did the heathen rage, and the people imagine vain things?
Act 4:26 The kings of the earth stood up, and the rulers were gathered together against the Lord, and against his Christ.
Act 4:27 For of a truth against thy holy child Jesus, whom thou hast anointed, both Herod, and Pontius Pilate, with the Gentiles, and the people of Israel, were gathered together,
Act 4:28 For to do whatsoever thy hand and thy counsel determined before to be done.
You have "all authority".
You have a King.
You have a sitting on a throne.
Yes, Christ is reigning now. Your theology may demand otherwise, but the Bible teaches it plainly.
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OR, is this the same New H&E Peter spoke of?
OldRegular
Well-Known Member
And Isaiah!
Are we actually in it now?
wars no more, sickness abolished, no more famines, tribulations, paradise restored on earth?
OldRegular
Well-Known Member
Tom
I believe Jesus Christ is reigning now with the departed Saints [Revelation 20] but there is much more to come!
OldRegular
Well-Known Member
Repeating myself.
I believe the 1000 years represents the "Church" Age, a long indeterminate period of time. During this period of time Jesus Christ is reigning with the departed Saints [Revelation 20] but there is much more to come.
At the end of that period of time ["Church" Age] there will be a general resurrection and judgment of all the dead followed by the New Heavens and New Earth where God will "tabernacle" with all the redeemed of all time.[Revelation 21:3]
isn't that called A Mil?
I agree with this, but for a different reason. I know that sounds shifty and conveniently vague. What I mean is that when we depart to be with the Lord there truly will be very much more to come. I look forward to it.
I realize that, as an Amill (right?) you mean something more visible.
That is where I was going next. So you believe the conditions following the New H&E in Isaiah, death, curses, building of homes etc... will occur after the New H&E of Revelation?
OldRegular
Well-Known Member
You have to "rightly divide" Grasshopper!