Romans 2:1-15

[Dr. Walter]

Gentleman,

Can we show a little objectivity in this discussion and try to make an attempt to recognize the immediate context in which it is placed and what it actually says versus what we want it to say?

A. It is placed in a context of disobedience to God's law:

1. Romans 1:18-32 precdes it and it does not give one instance of repentance or faith or conversion but rather a devilution into greater depravity.

2. Romans 1:17-3:8 follows it and it does not give one instance of true repentance or obedience to God's Law

3. This is why Paul can draw his conclusion in Romans 3:9-21 in regard to the "Whole world" and "every mouth" and that "no flesh" is justified by the works of the law.

B. It is not set in a context of justification by faith and faithfulness to God.

C. Romans 2:1 presumes guilt to anyone who claims to obey God's law "whosoever thou art" by declaring unconditional disobedience "thou doest the same thing"

D. Romans 2:11-24 presumes disobedience to the law by the Jews

E. Romans 2:25 introduces the suppositinal "IF" a Jew obeys the law then it profits him but never states that any Jew DOES obey the law.

F. Romans 2:1-15 sets forth JUST PRINCIPLES by which God judges men on the basis of works.

G. There is not one word in Romans 2:1-15 that declares, states or necessarily infers that there will be persons on judgement day whose works will satisfy these just principles.

For example, it is one thing to say that God's goodness in restraining wrath against willful sins SHOULD lead sinners to repentance and quite another thing to say it DOES or WILL do so.


And thinkest thou this, O man, that judgest them which do such things, and doest the same, that thou shalt escape the judgment of God?
4 Or despisest thou the riches of his goodness and forbearance and longsuffering; not knowing that the goodness of God leadeth thee to repentance?
5 But after thy hardness and impenitent heart treasurest up unto thyself wrath against the day of wrath and revelation of the righteous judgment of God;

Notice that the disputed phrase in verse 4 is directed against the man who sins and "thinketh" that he "shalt escape the judgement of God" because God's goodness in forbearing and suffering long with his rebellion. Notice the stated response is that of assumed further disobedience in verse 5 rather than repentance as our friends ASSUME contrary to the very context. There is no contextual grounds for assuming repentance when Paul assumes the opposite in verse 5 of the man introduced in verse 3 who thinks he will escape judgement simply because it is not immediate to his sin.

There will be a judgement in the future where 'the dead"(not the living) will stand before God and be judged every man according to his works. Those who stand before God in that judgement "there was no place found for THEM" but in the lake of fire. None in that future judgement are said to be justified but condemned to the lake of fire (Rev. 20:15-17). Paul clearly sets this judgement in the context of lost and rebellious mankind consisting of Gentiles (Rom. 1:18-32) and Jews (Romans 2:17-29). Here are the just principles that God will judge the works of lost men by:

Who will render to every man according to his deeds:
7 To them who by patient continuance in well doing seek for glory and honour and immortality, eternal life:
8 But unto them that are contentious, and do not obey the truth, but obey unrighteousness, indignation and wrath,
9 Tribulation and anguish, upon every soul of man that doeth evil, of the Jew first, and also of the Gentile;
10 But glory, honour, and peace, to every man that worketh good, to the Jew first, and also to the Gentile:



Rom. 20:11 ¶ And I saw a great white throne, and him that sat on it, from whose face the earth and the heaven fled away; and there was found no place for them.
12 And I saw the dead, small and great, stand before God; and the books were opened: and another book was opened, which is the book of life: and the dead were judged out of those things which were written in the books, according to their works.
13 And the sea gave up the dead which were in it; and death and hell delivered up the dead which were in them: and they were judged every man according to their works.14 And death and hell were cast into the lake of fire. This is the second death.
15 And whosoever was not found written in the book of life was cast into the lake of fire.

This judgement has but one described destination "according to their works" and it is not heaven.

Conclusion: God will judge the works of lost men FAIR and EQUITABLE and that demands that the reward of righteousness be set forth and qualified as well as the reward of unrighteousenss be set forth and qualified and that is all Paul is doing here.

 

[Thinkingstuff]

You missed the preamble in Romans 1:1-7 which sets the stage for the discussion.

1Paul, a servant of Christ Jesus, called to be an apostle and set apart for the gospel of God— 2the gospel he promised beforehand through his prophets in the Holy Scriptures 3regarding his Son, who as to his human nature was a descendant of David, 4and who through the Spirit[a] of holiness was declared with power to be the Son of God by his resurrection from the dead: Jesus Christ our Lord. 5Through him and for his name's sake, we received grace and apostleship to call people from among all the Gentiles to the obedience that comes from faith. 6And you also are among those who are called to belong to Jesus Christ.

1) the first question to be asked or you should ask is what paul means by gospel or good news. What was the good news that Jesus preached? The Kingdom of God (heaven) is at hand and now even among you.
2) We have been given entry into this kingdom by the power of Jesus Christ thorugh his attoning death and resurrection and resulting in forgiveness of sins and giving of the Paraclete. 3) We are called out from the world and entry into the kingdom of God to obedience that comes from faith.

Note some of those in Rome are Jewish and familiar with Jewish thought. Daniel promises (as does isaiah) the messianic kingdom which arrival is good news to them. But also for the gentiles as paul points out in this book.
This will frame the discussion. 1) why we need entry into the kingdom of God (salvation)
2) means of entry 3) what is all means.

This frames the discussion for the book.

I think the verses you mention should be looked at in that context. Though your conclusion seems a fair one is there some divergence or debate about it?

 

[Andre]

Gentleman,

Can we show a little objectivity in this discussion and try to make an attempt to recognize the immediate context in which it is placed and what it actually says versus what we want it to say?

A. It is placed in a context of disobedience to God's law:

1. Romans 1:18-32 precdes it and it does not give one instance of repentance or faith or conversion but rather a devilution into greater depravity.

True, but it would be incorrect to conclude that Paul cannot direct his argument to the possibility of repentance and escape from this state. A writer is free to shift back and forth between topics. And Paul clearly does this at various places in Romans. So the fact that Paul has painted a grim picture of humanity does not, in and of itself, mean his Romans 2 description of people getting eternal life based on good works, is a purely hypothetical scnenario that no one will be able to achieve.

Quite the contrary. While Paul indeed explains the sad state of mankind without Christ, it is this same Paul who writes that any man in Christ is a new creation, and that God is in the business of transforming human beings into the likeness of His Son.

So any description of the sad state of mankind apart from God in no way precludes Paul anticipating a favourable good works judgement at the end for some. Why not? New creation theology of course. Yes, man is lost and hopelessly mired in sin without God. But God has chosen to act in the world, transforming people so they can escape from such a state.

So the fact of the dreary Romans 1 picture does not rule out that Paul really does mean what he writes here:

To those who by persistence in doing good seek glory, honor and immortality, he will give eternal life.

 

[Dr. Walter]

I believe the gospel is about Christ's provision for sinners as the Substitute before the Law in the sight of God that satisfies all of its demands.

When we are born again we are brought under the RULE (kingdom) of God and the King reigns within our new nature by the presence of the Indwelling Spirit of Christ.

However, I would disagree with the translation that you use concering "obedience that comes from faith." The Greek text uses the definite article "the faith" and has reference to the Great Commission commandment into all the world. That is, they are saved to serve God and the Great Commission begins with gospel conversion but ends with conformity to "the faith" once delivered (Jude 3). This is the apostolic doctrine (Acts 2:42) that was orally passed down from the apostle to the churches (Acts 16:4-5) which the churches were to stand firm in (2 Thes. 2:15) and separate from any "brother" who departed from Apostolic order (2 Thes. 3:6,14). The same "the faith" is found in Romans 1:8 that Paul says is known throughout the world because they not only stood faithful to apostolic doctrine (Rom. 16:17) but proclaimed it.

You missed the preamble in Romans 1:1-7 which sets the stage for the discussion.
1) the first question to be asked or you should ask is what paul means by gospel or good news. What was the good news that Jesus preached? The Kingdom of God (heaven) is at hand and now even among you.
2) We have been given entry into this kingdom by the power of Jesus Christ thorugh his attoning death and resurrection and resulting in forgiveness of sins and giving of the Paraclete. 3) We are called out from the world and entry into the kingdom of God to obedience that comes from faith.

Note some of those in Rome are Jewish and familiar with Jewish thought. Daniel promises (as does isaiah) the messianic kingdom which arrival is good news to them. But also for the gentiles as paul points out in this book.
This will frame the discussion. 1) why we need entry into the kingdom of God (salvation)
2) means of entry 3) what is all means.

This frames the discussion for the book.

I think the verses you mention should be looked at in that context. Though your conclusion seems a fair one is there some divergence or debate about it?

 

[BobRyan]

Romans 1:1-7 begins with the “Gospel of God” vs 1 and the point that the apostles are calling for the “obedience of the faith among all the gentiles” vs 5.

It is there that we see that the letter is most certainly directed to gentiles “obedience of faith among all the gentiles for His name’s sake among whom you also are the called of Jesus Christ” vs 5-6

The Letter further points to the intended readers in this way “to ALL who are beloved of God in Rome, called as saints: Grace to you and peace”. Vs 7.

Paul is actually giving thanks in Chapter 1 for the faith of those to whom he is writing “I thank God through Jesus Christ for you all, because your faith is being proclaimed throughout the whole world”

Amazed to find that this is the very chapter where we are sometimes told to imagine that Paul is describing only “failure” and never “success” in the Gospel of Christ.

Paul affirms this portion of his letter written to his contemporaries – brothers and sisters in Christ. “that I may be encouraged together with you while among you, each of us by the other’s faith, both yours and mine…” vs 12.

This is not a “you are all failing in the eyes of God” chapter – not by a long shot!
Romans 1:14-17 is explicitly referencing the Gospel condition.

Even when it gets down to vs 13 – Paul still refers to the reader as his brethren “I do not want you to be unaware brethren” speaking to the Romans as those who are to be included as “among the rest of the gentiles” with whom Paul has also being obtaining fruit in the Gospel.

Paul continues with the introductory “gospel” theme in chapter 1 “thus for my part I am eager to preach the Gospel to you also who are in Rome.. for I am not ashamed of the Gospel for it is the power of God for salvation.. to the Jew first and also to the Greek”. Vs 15-16

That is the key phrase for the next chapter and a half because Paul shows both the succeeding Gospel examples “to the Jew first and also to the Greek” – as well as the failing examples among both Jews and Gentiles using that same key phrase.

Vs 17 “For in it” (the Gospel mentioned in vs 15-16) the righteousness of God is revealed from Faith to Faith” as it is written “but the Righteous shall live by Faith” Habakkuk 2:4.

In Vs 18 Paul points to the wrath of God “against all ungodliness and unrighteousness of men.. who although THEY know the ordinance of God, that those who practice such things are worthy of death, THEY not only do the same, but also give hearty practice to those who practice them” vs 18, vs 32.

Paul as switched from the “YOU” as the intended reader – to “THEY” as a reference to the wicked world at the end of chapter 1.

In chapter 2:1-3 Paul argues that the people of God who pass judgment on the wicked world – but then choose to engage in the same sins as the world are going to fall under the judgment of God.



Romans 2:4 the Gospel condition of the call to repentance as we see in 2Peter 3 “God is not willing that any should perish but that all should come to repentance”

Romans 2:4-13 the Gospel result of the perseverance of the saints and the eternal reward - applied explicitly to BOTH Jews and Gentiles.

Romans 2:13-16 the case of Gentiles who are approved in the future Gospel Judgment.

Romans 2:25-29 the explicit reference to Gentiles - who are born-again, new hearts, new creations, the work of the Holy Spirit.

Watch the Success cases in Rom 2: 7-13, 13-16 25-28

in Christ,

Bob

 

[BobRyan]

In Romans 2 we notice the contrast between those that repent and persevere in doing good, and those that cause God's name to be blasphemed! It is a contrast based on what they “practice” relative to the Ten Commandments from which Paul quotes.

This is not a chapter claiming that all Jews cause God to be blasphemed. It is not a chapter declaring that all Jews have rejected the Gospel (Paul and the Apostles are Jews) It is not a chapter declaring that no Jews are saved.

Rather it points to both the rebellion blasphemer on the one hand and the persevering and repentant saints on the other
.

Rom2:
25 for indeed circumcision is of value if you practice the Law; but if you are a transgressor of the Law, your circumcision has become uncircumcision.
26 so if the uncircumcised man keeps the requirements of the Law, will not his uncircumcision be regarded as circumcision?
[/ quote]


Paul shows us that the “Difference” between the truly circumcised of heart and those who are not – is in the “practice”. (Back to“Not the HEARERS of the Law are Just but the DOERS of the Law WILL be Justified”)


No, Paul is not using fiction as an argument for making his case! Rather he uses REAL examples from the REAL law of God giving examples from the real Ten Commandments!

Rom 2: 27and he who is physically uncircumcised, if he keeps the Law, will he not judge you who though having the letter of the Law and circumcision are a transgressor of the Law?
28 for he is not a Jew who is one outwardly,

Lets look at the "details".

#1. Paul lists individual commandments -- Adultery, stealing, idolatry... This can not be denied.

#2. Paul argues that the uncircumcised Gentiles are in some cases obeying and the Jews are in some cases in rebellion to these specific commandments taken from the Unit of Ten.

This can not be denied as we read the verses quoted above.

#3 Paul says that life will show the results of the Gospel transformation. The same point that Christ made in Matt 7 regarding the "good trees"



now watch as Paul argues that these obedient = spiritual Jews do exist!

Rom 2:
28 nor is circumcision that which is outward in the flesh.
29 buthe is a Jew who is one inwardly; and circumcision is that which is of the heart, by the spirit, not by the letter; and his praise is not from men, but from God.

The Gentiles with the Law written in the heart, the holy spirit working on the heart - this is all the succeeding - gospel case that Paul has already noted in the first of the chapter as - obtaining immortality.

It is true that Romans 2 argues that God is not partial - but the emphasis in Romans 3 that all are in need of a savior for all sin - is not a contradiction of Romans 2 - that those who repent and perservere are those that succeed in the judgment. Far from it. Romans 2 explicitly makes the point that the Gentiles are included in that succeeding case for as Christ said of this transforming work of the Gospel "by their fruits you shall know them".

in Christ,

Bob.

 

[Dr. Walter]

Bob,

You were doing fairly well until you came to Romans 2 and then you traded exegesis for eisgesis.

Romans 2:1-3 does not refer to the people of God. You cannot find a single syllable in these verses to support that theory. Why not stick with the language Paul uses to describe who he is talking about? You say "the people of God" but Pauls "O man, whosoever thou art." He is still speaking abstractly but now addressing the self-righteous hypocrit and yet you want to force the words "O man, whosoever thou art" to mean "the people of God."

I think you FORCE this definition in verses 1-3 in order to FORCE your definition upon verse 4.

Your FORCED identity is proven wrong by the context. Look at the continuity in verses 1-3. The abstract person Paul refers to is one that Paul draws this conclusion about - "doest the same thing" - v. 2 and Paul repeats this charge in verse 3 "doest the same." In other words he is a person who judges others as sinners when he does the same thing. Bob, what kind of person is it that judges others as sinners but does the same thing? A HYPOCRIT.

Look at verse 3 and you will see the same abstract person in verse one "O man" is still being addressed "O man" and Paul describes him as the kind of person who not only does "the same thing" but in addition "thinketh" he will escape the judgement of God for his sins.

And thinkest thou this, O man, that judgest them which do such things, and doest the same, that thou shalt escape the judgment of God?4 Or despisest thou the riches of his goodness and forbearance and longsuffering; not knowing that the goodness of God leadeth thee to repentance?
5 But after thy hardness and impenitent heart treasurest up unto thyself wrath against the day of wrath and revelation of the righteous judgment of God;

Bob, look at the descriptives of this person. He condemns others for what he does. He thinks he can escape the judgement of God for hypocrisy. He despisest the "riches of his goodness and forbearance and longsuffering." How can he despise that? Very simple. He thinks he can escape the judgement of God simply because God does not react immediately in wrath upon him, so he thinks he gets away with it and continues in his hypocrisy. However, this continuance in hypocrisy worsens his condition and judgement "But after thy hardness and impenitent heart treasurest up unto thyself wrath against the day of wrath...."

Bob, what this person is doing is clear. They are despising God's goodness by thinking they have got away with their sins simply because God is slow in carrying out judgement upon them. However, God's slowness "forbearance and longsuffering" ought to lead them to repentance when in fact it does not in the case of this kind of person because they despise it and become more hardened in their sins.

Try to be objective with the facts of this text. There is no possible way Romans 2:1-4 can refer to "the people of God." It refers to the hypocrit who believes he can get away with his sins because no immediate wrath occurs when he sins.

P.S. All the verbs in Romans 2:1-5 are found in the present tense - demonstrating this is the ongoing condition of this "man" he is describing. In other words this is a hypocrit who continues in thinking he can escape God's judgement.

In chapter 2:1-3 Paul argues that the people of God who pass judgment on the wicked world – but then choose to engage in the same sins as the world are going to fall under the judgment of God.[/COLOR]

 

[Andre]

Gentleman,

Can we show a little objectivity in this discussion and try to make an attempt to recognize the immediate context in which it is placed and what it actually says versus what we want it to say?

A. It is placed in a context of disobedience to God's law:

1. Romans 1:18-32 precdes it and it does not give one instance of repentance or faith or conversion but rather a devilution into greater depravity.

2. Romans 1:17-3:8 follows it and it does not give one instance of true repentance or obedience to God's Law

3. This is why Paul can draw his conclusion in Romans 3:9-21 in regard to the "Whole world" and "every mouth" and that "no flesh" is justified by the works of the law.

You appear to be arguing that because Romans 2 is positionally situated between two treatments of the desperate state of humanity, that therefore we cannot see Romans 2 as opening the possibility that, indeed, people will indeed be given eternal life based on good works.

Well, this kind of a "context by relative position" clearly cannot work with Paul in the book of Romans where it is clear that the structure of his argument is not "linear" but is in fact spiral in nature. You appear to assume, a priori, that Paul's argument cannot introduce a topic, then put it on hold, and then return to it again.

And the evidence shows that Paul indeed does this sort of thing in Romans. Here is just one of many examples:

In Romans 3, Paul raises a number of questions and he raises them very specifically in the context of national Israel and the covenant. In the very first 2 verses, we have an introductory question, focussing on the Jew (national Israel) and her covenant role of being a blessing to the world:

1What advantage, then, is there in being a Jew, or what value is there in circumcision? 2Much in every way! First of all, they have been entrusted with the very words of God.

To be entrusted with the words of God is to be given those words for the sake of someone else. This is clearly a reference to the covenantal role given to Israel to be a blessing to the world.

Now look at how Paul introduces Romans 9 - with the very same issue of national Israel. And here he elaborates on answers to the question of 3:1 that he has already given in 3:2:

3For I could wish that I myself were cursed and cut off from Christ for the sake of my brothers, those of my own race, 4the people of Israel. Theirs is the adoption as sons; theirs the divine glory, the covenants, the receiving of the law, the temple worship and the promises. 5Theirs are the patriarchs, and from them is traced the human ancestry of Christ, who is God over all, forever praised

These are, of course , the advantages of being a member of national Israel.

So we see that Paul has raised a question about Israel in Romans 3, then talked about a lot of other things in between, and then returned in Romans to the issue raised in Romans 3.

The point, of course, is that we need not assume that just because material in Romans 2 sits between material in Romans 1 and Romans 3, that Paul is still (in Romans 2) telling us about the hopelessness of the human condition.

As the example from Romans 3 and Romans 9 shows, Paul does not always employ a strictly linear style of argument.

 

[Andre]

This is not a chapter claiming that all Jews cause God to be blasphemed. It is not a chapter declaring that all Jews have rejected the Gospel (Paul and the Apostles are Jews) It is not a chapter declaring that no Jews are saved.

Rather it points to both the rebellion blasphemer on the one hand and the persevering and repentant saints on the other

Correct. Look at what Paul says in these verses from Chapter 2:

You who preach against stealing, do you steal? 22You who say that people should not commit adultery, do you commit adultery? You who abhor idols, do you rob temples? 23You who brag about the law, do you dishonor God by breaking the law?

Is Paul saying that all Jews are adulterers? That all Jews commit rob temples? That all Jews break the Law of Moses.

No he is rather obviously not making such a generalization. We know that Paul was a Torah observant Jew (Phillipians 3)

 

[Andre]

Let's be clear about a point of method. Just because Paul treats a certain group of people in a certain chunk of text, this does not constrain him from then, in the very next chunk, to a treatment of some other group. Here is an example from Romans 8: note how Paul switches back and forth between the state of the lost and the believer:

Those who live according to the sinful nature have their minds set on what that nature desires; but those who live in accordance with the Spirit have their minds set on what the Spirit desires. 6The mind of sinful man[e] is death, but the mind controlled by the Spirit is life and peace; 7the sinful mind[f] is hostile to God. It does not submit to God's law, nor can it do so. 8Those controlled by the sinful nature cannot please God. 9You, however, are controlled not by the sinful nature but by the Spirit, if the Spirit of God lives in you. And if anyone does not have the Spirit of Christ, he does not belong to Christ.

Note how Paul bounces back forth. So we need to careful with respect to the degree to which the "context demands that Paul be continuing to talk about what he has just been talking about in the preceding verses" kind of argument.

Context is important but it does not work in such a simplistic manner.

Imagine a text that discusses the habits of dogs extensively and then the following statement appears:

"Cats like to chase mice".

Clearly one cannot insist that the author is still talking about dogs, even if, after this "cat - statement", the author reverts to his treatment of dogs.

 

[Dr. Walter]

If, the only criteria of my exposition was the contextual placement of Romans 2:1-15 you might have a legitmate argument. However, that is merely one of many criteria that I listed and when they are all taken together there can be no doubt that my conclusions are correct if you are a fair minded person.

I demonstrated that your position of Romans 2:4 is incorrect by simply interpreting it by the immediate context of verses 1-5. Paul introduces the judgement in Romans 2:6-7 with a self-righteous hypocrit (vv. 1-5) who judges others but actually believes he will escape the judgement of God simply because God does not judge him immediately. He misinterprets the goodness of God, (which is contextually defined as God's longsuffering and patience giving the hypocrit time to repent in order to escape judgement), as evidence he can escape judgemen,t and thus the "goodness of God" instead of leading him to repentance, only produces further hardening and sinfulness against God (v. 5).

What you fail to see is that Romans 2:6-15 provides the guidelines of justice that prevent any sinner from thinking he can escape the judgement of God. The principles of divine justice are set forth and in order that "O man whosoever thou art" will know that God's principles of justice are fair and equitable and there is no escape. However, in setting out principles of justice in judgement both negative and positive standards and consequences must be stated. Proof that this is all that Paul does is seen that he does not declare anyone actually passes or fails.

All the examples you have given are not in relation to ANY SAVED Jew but rather what is common to ALL Jews regardless of their personal condition. Therefore to argue ABSTRACT examples as POSTIVE application to saved people is going beyond the scope of the texts being used.

I have not proceeded further than Romans 2:1-5 because if you and Bob will not admit you were wrong in your application of "the goodness of God leadeth him to repentance" then there is no point in proceeding any further. Bob attempts to claim that Romans 2:1-5 refers to "the people of God." That is utterly impossible IF the context is seriously considered at all.

You appear to be arguing that because Romans 2 is positionally situated between two treatments of the desperate state of humanity, that therefore we cannot see Romans 2 as opening the possibility that, indeed, people will indeed be given eternal life based on good works.

And the evidence shows that Paul indeed does this sort of thing in Romans. Here is just one of many examples:

In Romans 3, Paul raises a number of questions and he raises them very specifically in the context of national Israel and the covenant. In the very first 2 verses, we have an introductory question, focussing on the Jew (national Israel) and her covenant role of being a blessing to the world:

1What advantage, then, is there in being a Jew, or what value is there in circumcision? 2Much in every way! First of all, they have been entrusted with the very words of God.

To be entrusted with the words of God is to be given those words for the sake of someone else. This is clearly a reference to the covenantal role given to Israel to be a blessing to the world.

Now look at how Paul introduces Romans 9 - with the very same issue of national Israel. And here he elaborates on answers to the question of 3:1 that he has already given in 3:2:

3For I could wish that I myself were cursed and cut off from Christ for the sake of my brothers, those of my own race, 4the people of Israel. Theirs is the adoption as sons; theirs the divine glory, the covenants, the receiving of the law, the temple worship and the promises. 5Theirs are the patriarchs, and from them is traced the human ancestry of Christ, who is God over all, forever praised

These are, of course , the advantages of being a member of national Israel.

So we see that Paul has raised a question about Israel in Romans 3, then talked about a lot of other things in between, and then returned in Romans to the issue raised in Romans 3.

The point, of course, is that we need not assume that just because material in Romans 2 sits between material in Romans 1 and Romans 3, that Paul is still (in Romans 2) telling us about the hopelessness of the human condition.

As the example from Romans 3 and Romans 9 shows, Paul does not always employ a strictly linear style of argument.

 

[Andre]

I demonstrated that your position of Romans 2:4 is incorrect by simply interpreting it by the immediate context of verses 1-5.

When did I ever articulate a position on Romans 2:4. Are you sure you are not mixing me up with Bob Ryan?

 

[Dr. Walter]

When did I ever articulate a position on Romans 2:4. Are you sure you are not mixing me up with Bob Ryan?

Perhaps! Do you believe the phrase "the goodness of God leadeth thee to repentance?" is proof of actual examples of persons manifesting gospel repentance in this context? If you do, then what I said applies, if not, then it is one more proof that such are not found in this context as actual cases.

 

[BobRyan]

In chapter 2:1-3 Paul argues that the people of God who pass judgment on the wicked world – but then choose to engage in the same sins as the world are going to fall under the judgment of God

Bob,

You were doing fairly well until you came to Romans 2 and then you traded exegesis for eisgesis.

Romans 2:1-3 does not refer to the people of God. You cannot find a single syllable in these verses to support that theory.

Actually we see the people of God blessed in chapter 1 - and again in chapter 2 they are blessed with "immortality and eternal life". vs 7 (and so all through vs 29 of Romans 2).

Romans 2 is not a condemnation of the saints - rather the text specifically points to those who judge others and are themselves living in violation of God's Word.

1 Therefore you have no excuse, everyone of you who passes judgment, for in that which you judge another, you condemn yourself; for you who judge practice the same things.
2 And we know that the judgment of God rightly falls upon those who practice such things.
3 But do you suppose this, O man, when you pass judgment on those who practice such things and do the same yourself, that you will escape the judgment of God?

Those who try to dismiss Romans 2 by imagining that Paul has just said "I am who who passes judgment and others and then engages in the very rebellion against God of which I accuse others".

Nor is this Paul saying "I am one who condemns myself for I practice those things I accuse others of practicing" -- no he is not saying that about himself in Romans 2:1-3. Not by a long shot.

Nor is Paul saying "since I am passing judgment on others while doing those very things for which I condemn others - I know I will not escape the judgment of God" -- no not in Romans 2:1-3.

Paul - having approved all the saints and including himself with them in Romans 1 is not using language in Romans 2:1-3 that suggests that his life is the life of rebellion against God specifically listed in those 3 verses.

This is an obvious point that is difficult for the objective unbiased reader to miss. So I am not sure how you missed.

Why not stick with the language Paul uses to describe who he is talking about?

Err... um... that is the point.

You say "the people of God" but Pauls "O man, whosoever thou art." He is still speaking abstractly but now addressing the self-righteous hypocrit and yet you want to force the words "O man, whosoever thou art" to mean "the people of God."

I think you FORCE this definition in verses 1-3 in order to FORCE your definition upon verse 4.

vs 1-3 I argue that Paul speaks to those people who are in rebellion in vs 1-3,

vs 4 he argues for the Gospel call to repentance in vs 4

he shows the excellent REASON for choosing repentance in the remander of the chapter explaining

1 - the judgment of God on sinners vs 5 and the impartial basis for judgment (vs 6, 11, 13, 16 ...)

2 - the reward of the righteous vs 7

3 - the aspect of perseverance of the saints characteristic of the saved saints who accept the Gospel call to repentance 7, 10,

4 - the aspect of rebellion against God that is characteristic of those who reject the Gospel call to repentance. vs 8, 9, 3

Bob, what this person is doing is clear. They are despising God's goodness by thinking they have got away with their sins simply because God is slow in carrying out judgement upon them.

True and Paul is not accusing himself or the saints he approved of in the previous chapter of doing those things. AS if this is how the saints live their lives. But he is addressing his readers in Rome (in the church) who are guilty of this - those who are lost.

However, God's slowness "forbearance and longsuffering" ought to lead them to repentance when in fact it does not in the case of this kind of person because they despise it and become more hardened in their sins.

Try to be objective with the facts of this text. There is no possible way Romans 2:1-4 can refer to "the people of God." It refers to the hypocrit who believes he can get away with his sins because no immediate wrath occurs when he sins.

My reference to the "people of God" was in the context of all of Romans because I am arguing that both the saved and the lost are being addressed - not as ALL being in the same condition - but as each condition is applicable. So to the lost the Romans 2 statements about the lost are applicable, to the saved persevering saints the Romans 2 statements about the saved persevering saints are applicable.

P.S. All the verbs in Romans 2:1-5 are found in the present tense - demonstrating this is the ongoing condition of this "man" he is describing. In other words this is a hypocrit who continues in thinking he can escape God's judgement.

Agreed. Paul is not talking about his own case in Romans 2:1-3.

But the Gospel call to repentance is applicable to all the lost - for God is not willing for ANY to perish but for ALL to come to repentance. 2Peter 3:9

Therefore God calls for all men everywhere to repent. Acts 17:30

Convicting the World of sin and righteousness and judgment. John 16:8


in Christ,

Bob

 

[Dr. Walter]

Bob, your exposition is so stupid that it is hard to simply refrain my self from saying it is merely "stupid."

You cannot jump from Romans 1:1-17 to Romans 2 and then ASSUME it is talking about the people of God when you have Romans 1:18-32 in between, and in which verse (Rom. 1:32) this very judgement is first introduced and directly mentioned in association with the ungodly not the people of God"

Who knowing the judgment of God, that they which commit such things are worthy of death, not only do the same, but have pleasure in them that do them.
1 ¶ Therefore thou art inexcusable, O man, whosoever thou art that judgest: for wherein thou judgest another, thou condemnest thyself; for thou that judgest doest the same things.

Your exposition of Romans 2:1-5 is ludricous and purely imaginative. You pay no attention to the developing thought and conclusion drawn by Paul. You pay no attention to the subject who is being defined in detail. You demonstrate a complete incapability of using common sense or common sense rules of interpretation because you are so committed to a preconcieved notion that is completely without basis.

Romans 2:1-4 cannot be separated from Romans 1:32 and his continuing discussion about the ungodly. He is not talking about Paul or the saints at all. He is talking about the ungodly self-righteous hypocrit who thinks he can get away with his sins because there is no immediate judgement upon him. He is talking about the ungodly hypocrit who responds to God's longsuffering and patience in delaying judgement by responding in hardness to that delay, which is the goodness of God toward sinners, instead of repenting of his hypocrisy.

There is no basis to make intelligent and reasonable discussion with you as you throw all common sense and application of hermeneutics out the window. The point that Paul is making clear is that they won't repent but they will continue in rebellion and thus further themselves in hardened resistance.

Actually we see the people of God blessed in chapter 1 - and again in chapter 2 they are blessed with "immortality and eternal life". vs 7 (and so all through vs 29 of Romans 2).

Romans 2 is not a condemnation of the saints - rather the text specifically points to those who judge others and are themselves living in violation of God's Word.

1 Therefore you have no excuse, everyone of you who passes judgment, for in that which you judge another, you condemn yourself; for you who judge practice the same things.
2 And we know that the judgment of God rightly falls upon those who practice such things.
3 But do you suppose this, O man, when you pass judgment on those who practice such things and do the same yourself, that you will escape the judgment of God?

Those who try to dismiss Romans 2 by imagining that Paul has just said "I am who who passes judgment and others and then engages in the very rebellion against God of which I accuse others".

Nor is this Paul saying "I am one who condemns myself for I practice those things I accuse others of practicing" -- no he is not saying that about himself in Romans 2:1-3. Not by a long shot.

Nor is Paul saying "since I am passing judgment on others while doing those very things for which I condemn others - I know I will not escape the judgment of God" -- no not in Romans 2:1-3.

Paul - having approved all the saints and including himself with them in Romans 1 is not using language in Romans 2:1-3 that suggests that his life is the life of rebellion against God specifically listed in those 3 verses.

This is an obvious point that is difficult for the objective unbiased reader to miss. So I am not sure how you missed.



Err... um... that is the point.



vs 1-3 I argue that Paul speaks to those people who are in rebellion in vs 1-3,

vs 4 he argues for the Gospel call to repentance in vs 4

he shows the excellent REASON for choosing repentance in the remander of the chapter explaining

1 - the judgment of God on sinners vs 5 and the impartial basis for judgment (vs 6, 11, 13, 16 ...)

2 - the reward of the righteous vs 7

3 - the aspect of perseverance of the saints characteristic of the saved saints who accept the Gospel call to repentance 7, 10,

4 - the aspect of rebellion against God that is characteristic of those who reject the Gospel call to repentance. vs 8, 9, 3



True and Paul is not accusing himself or the saints he approved of in the previous chapter of doing those things. AS if this is how the saints live their lives. But he is addressing his readers in Rome (in the church) who are guilty of this - those who are lost.

However, God's slowness "forbearance and longsuffering" ought to lead them to repentance when in fact it does not in the case of this kind of person because they despise it and become more hardened in their sins.



My reference to the "people of God" was in the context of all of Romans because I am arguing that both the saved and the lost are being addressed - not as ALL being in the same condition - but as each condition is applicable. So to the lost the Romans 2 statements about the lost are applicable, to the saved persevering saints the Romans 2 statements about the saved persevering saints are applicable.



Agreed. Paul is not talking about his own case in Romans 2:1-3.

But the Gospel call to repentance is applicable to all the lost - for God is not willing for ANY to perish but for ALL to come to repentance. 2Peter 3:9

Therefore God calls for all men everywhere to repent. Acts 17:30

Convicting the World of sin and righteousness and judgment. John 16:8


in Christ,

Bob

 

[Dr. Walter]

bob, I apologize for loosing my cool. I just should have stayed with the data and left the degrading remarks out. Furthermore, I should have given you the credit for what you did agree with me.

Let me start over again. Romans 1:1-17 is addressed to the church at Rome and is his introduction to them and why he wants to visit then and why he is impassioned about preaching the gospel in Rome.

Romans 1:18-3:21 provides the first reason why the gospel needs to be preached to sinners. The wrath of God is revealed against all who SUPRESS the truth that God has revealed to them.

The Wrath of God is revealed from heaven by progressively giving the ungodly who suppress the truth over to worse and worse conditions (vv. 24,26,28).

The judgement day will eventually come to pour out God's wrath against those who KNOWINGLY and WILLINGLY supress the truth in unrighteousness - Rom. 1:32

The self-righteous hypocrit will not escape the judgement of God - Rom. 2:1-5

There is no GAP between Romans 1:32 and Romans 2:1 - there is continuance about ONE KIND OF HUMAN BEING - those who willfully suppress the truth in unrighteusness and that is the consistent and continue theme without interruption from Romans 1:18 to Romans 2:5.

The goodness of God that should lead to repentance is not the presentation of the gospel nor is this gospel repentance. The goodness of God that should lead to repentance is His delay of judgement in regard to the truth THEY ALREADY KNOW BUT SURPRESS in unrighteousness. The truth revealed unto them found in CREATION and the truth revealed IN them found in conscience of right and wrong as this will be the truth they will be judged by on judgement day - Romans 2:14-15. He is talking about the LOST GENTILE.

Actually we see the people of God blessed in chapter 1 - and again in chapter 2 they are blessed with "immortality and eternal life". vs 7 (and so all through vs 29 of Romans 2).

Romans 2 is not a condemnation of the saints - rather the text specifically points to those who judge others and are themselves living in violation of God's Word.

1 Therefore you have no excuse, everyone of you who passes judgment, for in that which you judge another, you condemn yourself; for you who judge practice the same things.
2 And we know that the judgment of God rightly falls upon those who practice such things.
3 But do you suppose this, O man, when you pass judgment on those who practice such things and do the same yourself, that you will escape the judgment of God?

Those who try to dismiss Romans 2 by imagining that Paul has just said "I am who who passes judgment and others and then engages in the very rebellion against God of which I accuse others".

Nor is this Paul saying "I am one who condemns myself for I practice those things I accuse others of practicing" -- no he is not saying that about himself in Romans 2:1-3. Not by a long shot.

Nor is Paul saying "since I am passing judgment on others while doing those very things for which I condemn others - I know I will not escape the judgment of God" -- no not in Romans 2:1-3.

Paul - having approved all the saints and including himself with them in Romans 1 is not using language in Romans 2:1-3 that suggests that his life is the life of rebellion against God specifically listed in those 3 verses.

This is an obvious point that is difficult for the objective unbiased reader to miss. So I am not sure how you missed.



Err... um... that is the point.



vs 1-3 I argue that Paul speaks to those people who are in rebellion in vs 1-3,

vs 4 he argues for the Gospel call to repentance in vs 4

he shows the excellent REASON for choosing repentance in the remander of the chapter explaining

1 - the judgment of God on sinners vs 5 and the impartial basis for judgment (vs 6, 11, 13, 16 ...)

2 - the reward of the righteous vs 7

3 - the aspect of perseverance of the saints characteristic of the saved saints who accept the Gospel call to repentance 7, 10,

4 - the aspect of rebellion against God that is characteristic of those who reject the Gospel call to repentance. vs 8, 9, 3



True and Paul is not accusing himself or the saints he approved of in the previous chapter of doing those things. AS if this is how the saints live their lives. But he is addressing his readers in Rome (in the church) who are guilty of this - those who are lost.

However, God's slowness "forbearance and longsuffering" ought to lead them to repentance when in fact it does not in the case of this kind of person because they despise it and become more hardened in their sins.



My reference to the "people of God" was in the context of all of Romans because I am arguing that both the saved and the lost are being addressed - not as ALL being in the same condition - but as each condition is applicable. So to the lost the Romans 2 statements about the lost are applicable, to the saved persevering saints the Romans 2 statements about the saved persevering saints are applicable.



Agreed. Paul is not talking about his own case in Romans 2:1-3.

But the Gospel call to repentance is applicable to all the lost - for God is not willing for ANY to perish but for ALL to come to repentance. 2Peter 3:9

Therefore God calls for all men everywhere to repent. Acts 17:30

Convicting the World of sin and righteousness and judgment. John 16:8


in Christ,

Bob

 

[BobRyan]

bob, I apologize for loosing my cool. I just should have stayed with the data and left the degrading remarks out. Furthermore, I should have given you the credit for what you did agree with me.

Let me start over again. Romans 1:1-17 is addressed to the church at Rome and is his introduction to them and why he wants to visit then and why he is impassioned about preaching the gospel in Rome.

Agreed. The saints. Paul speaks to "you"

Romans 1:18-3:21 provides the first reason why the gospel needs to be preached to sinners.

Correction. Romans 1:18-32 Paul addresses the lost world that are NOT the readers of the letter to the Roman church using the term "THEY".

Romans 2:1-29 is speaking again to the readers of Paul's letter "you" - in the church of Rome and in the opening 3 vs speaks not to the saved of that church but to the lost.

Speaking to the lost - Paul does not say in vs 1-3 that HE is the one doing those things - nor that the saints mentioned in vs 1-17 of chapter 1 are doing those things.

vs 5-29 shows BOTH the failing and the succeeding cases to be both among the jews and the gentiles in the context of the "Goodness of God that leads to repentance" and in context of Justification in that future "Gospel" judgment of Christ. Obviously all Christians even to this day accept this basic truth that there will be saints in heaven both from among the jews and the gentiles. As well as the lost in hell BOTH from the Jews and the gentiles.

No surprise there.

Then in Romans 3 Paul begins to deal with the more basic issue of salvation for lost mankind in general. Showing that the continued authority of the Law of God declares ALL mankind to be lost and in need of the Gospel.

in Christ,

Bob

 

[Dr. Walter]

I did not say that Romans 1:18-32 is addressed to the saints at Rome but to the ungodly gentiles who have only the light of creation and conscience but supress that light.

Romans 2:1-5 is not speaking to "you" or the readers of the epistle but expressly says "O man whosever thou art" that fits the following characteristics - lost ungodly hypocritical characteristics or a continuation of those in Romans 1:18-32.

Romans 2:6-16 make no application to anyone specifically or makes any claim that anyone will or has passed these standards of judgement.

Agreed. The saints. Paul speaks to "you"



Correction. Romans 1:18-32 Paul addresses the lost world that are NOT the readers of the letter to the Roman church using the term "THEY".

Romans 2:1-29 is speaking again to the readers of Paul's letter "you" - in the church of Rome and in the opening 3 vs speaks not to the saved of that church but to the lost.

Speaking to the lost - Paul does not say in vs 1-3 that HE is the one doing those things - nor that the saints mentioned in vs 1-17 of chapter 1 are doing those things.

vs 5-29 shows BOTH the failing and the succeeding cases to be both among the jews and the gentiles in the context of the "Goodness of God that leads to repentance" and in context of Justification in that future "Gospel" judgment of Christ. Obviously all Christians even to this day accept this basic truth that there will be saints in heaven both from among the jews and the gentiles. As well as the lost in hell BOTH from the Jews and the gentiles.

No surprise there.

Then in Romans 3 Paul begins to deal with the more basic issue of salvation for lost mankind in general. Showing that the continued authority of the Law of God declares ALL mankind to be lost and in need of the Gospel.

in Christ,

Bob

 

[Dr. Walter]

Romans 2:5-29

"the righteous judgment of God;" - Rom. 2:5b

Verse 5 closes with this qualification of the coming judgement of God and thus introduces the point Paul is going to prove in verses 6-29 - why His judgement will be just and what principles make it just and righteous. He has formerly dealt with the unregenerate Gentile who suppresses the truth given to them and think they will escape the wrath of God's judgement (Romans 1:18-2:5). Verses 6-15 is followed by the description of the unregenerate Jew who thinks because he has been given the law of God and knows it, that he will escape judgement from God but Paul clearly tells him that it is not his profession and knowledge or other externals that matters but the inward state that determines whether both Jew or gentile escape the wrath of God's judgement.

The principles of God's judgement make it impossible for the unregenerate to escape the wrath of God's judgement:

1. Just consequences for actions: - vv. 6-7

6 Who will render to every man according to his deeds:
7 To them who by patient continuance in well doing seek for glory and honour and immortality, eternal life:
8 But unto them that are contentious, and do not obey the truth, but obey unrighteousness, indignation and wrath,
9 Tribulation and anguish, upon every soul of man that doeth evil, of the Jew first, and also of the Gentile;
10 But glory, honour, and peace, to every man that worketh good, to the Jew first, and also to the Gentile:

2. No respect of Person but respect of law- vv. 11-13

11 For there is no respect of persons with God.
12 For as many as have sinned without law shall also perish without law: and as many as have sinned in the law shall be judged by the law;
13 (For not the hearers of the law are just before God, but the doers of the law shall be justified.

3. Justice according to (law)light given - vv. 14-16

14 For when the Gentiles, which have not the law, do by nature the things contained in the law, these, having not the law, are a law unto themselves:
15 Which shew the work of the law written in their hearts, their conscience also bearing witness, and their thoughts the mean while accusing or else excusing one another

4. A Comprehensive judgement of the unseen as well as the seen:- vv. 16-29

16. In the day when God shall judge the secrets of men by Jesus Christ according to my gospel.
17 ¶ Behold, thou art called a Jew, and restest in the law, and makest thy boast of God,
18 And knowest his will, and approvest the things that are more excellent, being instructed out of the law;
19 And art confident that thou thyself art a guide of the blind, a light of them which are in darkness,
20 An instructor of the foolish, a teacher of babes, which hast the form of knowledge and of the truth in the law.
21 Thou therefore which teachest another, teachest thou not thyself? thou that preachest a man should not steal, dost thou steal?
22 Thou that sayest a man should not commit adultery, dost thou commit adultery? thou that abhorrest idols, dost thou commit sacrilege?
23 Thou that makest thy boast of the law, through breaking the law dishonourest thou God?
24 For the name of God is blasphemed among the Gentiles through you, as it is written.
25 For circumcision verily profiteth, if thou keep the law: but if thou be a breaker of the law, thy circumcision is made uncircumcision.
26 Therefore if the uncircumcision keep the righteousness of the law, shall not his uncircumcision be counted for circumcision?
27 And shall not uncircumcision which is by nature, if it fulfil the law, judge thee, who by the letter and circumcision dost transgress the law?
28 For he is not a Jew, which is one outwardly; neither is that circumcision, which is outward in the flesh:
29 But he is a Jew, which is one inwardly; and circumcision is that of the heart, in the spirit, and not in the letter; whose praise is not of men, but of God.

Verse 16 introduces a section that deals with reality not with profession and closes with the unseen INWARD state versus the seen outward state (v. 29).

This is in keeping with the gospel of Paul because the Gospel deals with the unseen condition of the heart ("with the heart man believeth" - Rom. 10:8). The Gospel reveals the righteousness of God (Rom. 1:17) in the Person of Jesus Christ as the final standard of righteousness.

In verses 6-10 justice requires setting forth the ABSTRACT characteristics of righteousness and unrighteosness with equally just consequences. However, there is no CONCRETE application made to anyone in particular because it is ABSTRACT principles being set forth. The inference both before and after is that the Gentile who suppresss the truth or light/law he has been given THINKS he will escape judgment (Romans 2:1-5) just as the Jew THINKS he will, simply because he has the law and knows it. However, the very just principles set forth that determine the nature of God's judgement demonstrates that neither the unregenerated Gentile or Jew will escape justice.

 

[BobRyan]

I did not say that Romans 1:18-32 is addressed to the saints at Rome but to the ungodly gentiles who have only the light of creation and conscience but supress that light.

Agreed. My point was it appeared that you are lumping Romans 1:18 through 3:19 into one vast bucket of "lost people" -- I was simply noting that this is chapter 1:18-32.

Romans 2:1-5 is not speaking to "you" or the readers of the epistle

In Romans 1:18-32 it is "they" - he writes to the Church - about "them" those other guys - not the readers of the letter.

In Romans 2:1-5 it is "you".

Lost people in the church at Rome who are reading the letter.

1 Therefore you have no excuse, everyone of you who passes judgment, for in that which you judge another, you condemn yourself; for you who judge practice the same things.
2 And we know that the judgment of God rightly falls upon those who practice such things.
3 But do you suppose this, O man, when you pass judgment on those who practice such things and do the same yourself, that you will escape the judgment of God?

4 Or do you think lightly of the riches of His kindness and tolerance and patience, not knowing that the kindness of God leads you to repentance?


5 But because of your stubbornness and unrepentant heart you are storing up wrath for yourself in the day of wrath and revelation of the righteous judgment of God,

but expressly says "O man whosever thou art" that fits the following characteristics - lost ungodly hypocritical characteristics or a continuation of those in Romans 1:18-32.

To lightly gloss over or dismiss the detail of the switch from "they" in Rom 1:18-32 to "you who.." in Rom 2:1-5 is not something I am willing to do. But you are free to go there if your view needs you to do it.

Romans 2:6-16 make no application to anyone specifically or makes any claim that anyone will or has passed these standards of judgement.

If you are free to deny the succeeding cases of vs 6-16 that get "immortality and eternal life" as being real - then you are free to deny the failing cases as well - making mush out of the entire chapter.

Again - I am not willing to deny those portions of the text. My view does not require that I do that.

Imagine for a moment that you are teaching a class of seminary students, or a church bible study group and this subject comes up. You would have to know full well that at some point in their lives they will meet a BobRyan that will not simply dismiss the inconvenient details of scripture just because this view or that view "needs it".

What would you tell those students?

in Christ,

Bob