Romans 2:1-15

[BobRyan]

"the righteous judgment of God;" - Rom. 2:5b

Verse 5 closes with this qualification of the coming judgement of God and thus introduces the point Paul is going to prove in verses 6-29 - why His judgement will be just and what principles make it just and righteous.

Agreed.

However this is in the context of vs 4 "the goodness of God leads you to repentance" - and in Acts 17:30 it plays out this way "God is calling all men everywhere to repentance". That righteous judgment of God is also in the context of future "gospel judgment" mentioned in 2:16.

He has formerly dealt with the unregenerate Gentile who suppresses the truth given to them and think they will escape the wrath of God's judgement (Romans 1:18-2:5). Verses 6-15 is followed by the description of the unregenerate Jew

If we gloss over the case of the gentiles mentioned in vs 6-15 who fail and the other gentiles listed that succeed as well as the case of the Jews that succeed for "immortality and eternal life" as explicitly stated IN the text itself - and just imagine that we only see Jews mentioned in those verses and further we imagine that we only see those Jews failing... then we have ... quite an imagination!

The principles of God's judgement make it impossible for the unregenerate to escape the wrath of God's judgement:

True - that is the point of Chapter 3 - but in Chapter 2 we see the cases of both those who have the law of God written on the heart under the New Covenant - and the cases of the lost that doe not have that.

We are shown in Chapter 2 - that there are both Jews AND Gentiles in represented in each group (The New Covenant group -1, and the lost group -2).

1. Just consequences for actions: - vv. 6-7

6 Who will render to every man according to his deeds:
7 To them who by patient continuance in well doing seek for glory and honour and immortality, eternal life:
8 But unto them that are contentious, and do not obey the truth, but obey unrighteousness, indignation and wrath,

This Advances the Romans 1 point where Paul starts off telling the reader that his gospel is intended to bring about "the obedience of faith among the gentiles". Rom 1:5

9 Tribulation and anguish, upon every soul of man that doeth evil, of the Jew first, and also of the Gentile;
10 But glory, honour, and peace, to every man that worketh good, to the Jew first, and also to the Gentile:

This advances the point of Rom 1:16 "the Gospel for it is the power of God for salvation to everyone who believes to the Jew first and also to the Greek"

2. No respect of Person but respect of law- vv. 11-13

11 For there is no respect of persons with God.

This flatly refutes the doctrine of arbitrary selection.

12 For as many as have sinned without law shall also perish without law: and as many as have sinned in the law shall be judged by the law;
13 (For not the hearers of the law are just before God, but the doers of the law shall be justified.

This goes to the direct Gospel concept of justification. A concept not even applicable in a "law only model". In the no-Gospel model there is no such thing as needing justification or being justified after having sinned.

The doers of the law "shall be justified" is a concept only applicable to the Gospel.

3. Justice according to (law)light given - vv. 14-16

14 For when the Gentiles, which have not the law, do by nature the things contained in the law, these, having not the law, are a law unto themselves:
15 Which shew the work of the law written in their hearts, their conscience also bearing witness, and their thoughts the mean while accusing or else excusing one another
16. In the day when God shall judge the secrets of men by Jesus Christ according to my gospel.

This is a clear reference to the New Covenant model of the Law of God written on the heart and is also mentioned at the end of Romans 2 under the illustration of the heart that is circumcised by the Holy Spirit.

It also points to a future time of judgment - that is Gospel Judgment and deals with such cases as the saved who are under the New Covenant.

Paul continues to speak to "you" the reader of the letter to the Romans.

4. A Comprehensive judgement of the unseen as well as the seen:- vv. 16-29


17 ¶ Behold, thou art called a Jew, and restest in the law, and makest thy boast of God,
18 And knowest his will, and approvest the things that are more excellent, being instructed out of the law;
19 And art confident that thou thyself art a guide of the blind, a light of them which are in darkness,
20 An instructor of the foolish, a teacher of babes, which hast the form of knowledge and of the truth in the law.
21 Thou therefore which teachest another, teachest thou not thyself? thou that preachest a man should not steal, dost thou steal?
22 Thou that sayest a man should not commit adultery, dost thou commit adultery? thou that abhorrest idols, dost thou commit sacrilege?
23 Thou that makest thy boast of the law, through breaking the law dishonourest thou God?

Paul is speaking to "you" the readers of the letter who view themselves as Bible aware - instructors of the lost world of sinners. Who have decided to also themselves live in rebellion to the Law of God just as those they condemn.

At no point does Paul claim that this is the fate of the saints or of the saints mentioned in Vs 1:1-16.

24 For the name of God is blasphemed among the Gentiles through you, as it is written.

Paul argues for REAL obedience vs condemning REAL rebellion and says that in the case of those readers of his letter that are living in real rebellion they are causing the name of God to be blasphemed among the gentiles. Gentiles SEE those who are supposed to know the One true God of the Bible - living as sinners yet claiming to be accepted by God and so the gentiles in this case are led to blaspheme God. Paul does not here claim to be such a Jew.

25 For circumcision verily profiteth, if thou keep the law: but if thou be a breaker of the law, thy circumcision is made uncircumcision.

Paul is not an example of a jew who is not circumcised in that context.

26 Therefore if the uncircumcision keep the righteousness of the law, shall not his uncircumcision be counted for circumcision?
27 And shall not uncircumcision which is by nature, if it fulfil the law, judge thee, who by the letter and circumcision dost transgress the law?

Paul's argument here only works if it is true that there indeed are saved Gentiles in this case - whose godly lives condemned lost Jews. And indeed - that was true statement even in Paul's day.

Under the New Covenant the saved man (Jew or Gentile) will be circumcised in heart - a new heart - a new creation - with the Law of God written on the heart and the "fruit" of the new birth seen in the life.

28 For he is not a Jew, which is one outwardly; neither is that circumcision, which is outward in the flesh:
29 But he is a Jew, which is one inwardly; and circumcision is that of the heart, in the spirit, and not in the letter; whose praise is not of men, but of God.

 

[Dr. Walter]

The subject defined in Romans 2:1-5 is "O man whosoever thou (you) art" thus "you" has its antecedent in "O Man whosoever" and indeed the repetition of "o man" is found in verse 3 again.

Who is this "man"? It is by description in verses 1-5 the kind of man who THINKS he can escape the judgement he knows will come in spite of surpressing the light of nature and conscience given him. He is the unregenerate gentile kind of man of Romans 1:18-32 and in which verse 32 states clearly "they" know the judgement of God but do it any way because they THINK they can get away with it. What we have in Romans 1:18-32 is GENERIC ABSTRACT teaching "they." What we have in Romans 2:1-5 is CONCRETE ABSTRACT application to "O man whosoever" thinketh as previously described.

It is this kind of (unregenerate Gentile who suppresses the truth) man that the rules of justice are set forth in Romans 2:6-15 that demonstrate what he "THINKETH" simply won't happen.

In Romans 2:16-27 we have another kind of ABSTRACT CONRETE application to another kind of man who THINKS the very same way because this kind of man has been given special revelation and knows the law.

However, in Romans 2:28-29 the only kind of man who is safe from judgement is the kind whose INWARD condition reveals a REGENERATE kind of man. In application to his readers, self-examination by both Gentile members and Jewish members in regard to how they THINK in this matter and what classification do they fall under (1) Characteristics of the Unregenerate Gentile who thinks they can escape judgement when supressing the truth; (2) Characteristics of the Unregenerate Jew who thinks they can escape judgement based upon their knowledge and who they are by physical birth; (3) Characteristic of the regenerate man.

Agreed. My point was it appeared that you are lumping Romans 1:18 through 3:19 into one vast bucket of "lost people" -- I was simply noting that this is chapter 1:18-32.



In Romans 1:18-32 it is "they" - he writes to the Church - about "them" those other guys - not the readers of the letter.

In Romans 2:1-5 it is "you".

Lost people in the church at Rome who are reading the letter.

1 Therefore you have no excuse, everyone of you who passes judgment, for in that which you judge another, you condemn yourself; for you who judge practice the same things.
2 And we know that the judgment of God rightly falls upon those who practice such things.
3 But do you suppose this, O man, when you pass judgment on those who practice such things and do the same yourself, that you will escape the judgment of God?

4 Or do you think lightly of the riches of His kindness and tolerance and patience, not knowing that the kindness of God leads you to repentance?


5 But because of your stubbornness and unrepentant heart you are storing up wrath for yourself in the day of wrath and revelation of the righteous judgment of God,



To lightly gloss over or dismiss the detail of the switch from "they" in Rom 1:18-32 to "you who.." in Rom 2:1-5 is not something I am willing to do. But you are free to go there if your view needs you to do it.



If you are free to deny the succeeding cases of vs 6-16 that get "immortality and eternal life" as being real - then you are free to deny the failing cases as well - making mush out of the entire chapter.

Again - I am not willing to deny those portions of the text. My view does not require that I do that.

Imagine for a moment that you are teaching a class of seminary students, or a church bible study group and this subject comes up. You would have to know full well that at some point in their lives they will meet a BobRyan that will not simply dismiss the inconvenient details of scripture just because this view or that view "needs it".

What would you tell those students?

in Christ,

Bob

 

[BobRyan]

The subject defined in Romans 2:1-5 is "O man whosoever thou (you) art" thus "you" has its antecedent in "O Man whosoever" and indeed the repetition of "o man" is found in verse 3 again.

Who is this "man"? It is by description in verses 1-5 the kind of man who THINKS he can escape the judgement he knows will come in spite of surpressing the light of nature and conscience given him. He is the unregenerate gentile kind of man of Romans 1:18-32 and in which verse 32 states clearly "they" know the judgement of God but do it any way because they THINK they can get away with it.

Correction
- in Rom 1:1-17 "you" are the saved saints of Rome reading this letter from Paul.

-in Rom 1: 18-32 "THEY" are the lost "barbarians" who do not know God or His Law.

in Romans 2 "YOU" is addressed to the readers of Paul's letter in Rome - those who are in fact judging the "THEY" previously identified in chpt 1.

1 Therefore you have no excuse, everyone of you who passes judgment, for in that which you judge another, you condemn yourself; for you who judge practice the same things.
2 And we know that the judgment of God rightly falls upon those who practice such things.
3 But do you suppose this, O man, when you pass judgment on those who practice such things and do the same yourself, that you will escape the judgment of God?

4 Or do you think lightly of the riches of His kindness and tolerance and patience, not knowing that the kindness of God leads you to repentance?
5 But because of your stubbornness and unrepentant heart you are storing up wrath for yourself in the day of wrath and revelation of the righteous judgment of God,

What we have in Romans 1:18-32 is GENERIC ABSTRACT teaching "they."

In Romans 1 "you" are the saved saints - explicitly stated to be such in vs 1-17.

In Romans 1:18-32 "THEY" are the barbarians who according to the explicit statement in the text only have knowledge of God through "the things that have been made".

In Romans 1 Paul is talking to the saved saints about that group he refers to as "THEY" - third person reference to others - those not even reading this letter.

However, in Romans 2:28-29 the only kind of man who is safe from judgement is the kind whose INWARD condition reveals a REGENERATE kind of man.

Also indentified in Romans 7-17 as those who "persevere in doing good" vs 7
as those who "do good" vs 10,
as those who are "doers of the Law" vs 13,
as those who "Show the work of the Law written on the heart" in vs 15, as those who are approved of (defended) in the future gospel judgment of vs 16.

In vs 7 and 10 Paul says that they are from among both the Jews and the Gentiles.

In vs 15 and 16 - Paul specifically highlights the case of the successful gentile just as he does in vs 26-29.

In application to his readers, self-examination by both Gentile members and Jewish members in regard to how they THINK in this matter and what classification do they fall under (1) Characteristics of the Unregenerate Gentile who thinks they can escape judgement when supressing the truth; (2) Characteristics of the Unregenerate Jew who thinks they can escape judgement based upon their knowledge and who they are by physical birth; (3) Characteristic of the regenerate man.

That part is true.

in Christ,

Bob

 

[Dr. Walter]

The wording of Romans 2:2-5 makes your application of the phrase "goodness of God leads you to repentance" impossible. Repentance is a change of mind, and the mind being expressed in this context is that this person "THINKETH" they can escape the judgement of God "And thinkest thou this, O man..... that thou shalt escape the judgment of God?." Therefore gospel repentance has nothing to do with this text as the next argument also demonstrates.


Second, the "goodness of God" defined in this context is the delay of God in bringing judgement upon this person or the "longsuffering" and "patience" of God not the presentation of the gospel.

Third, Paul gives only one kind of response for this kind of person to the "goodness of God and it is continuance in unrepentance that leads to further hardening "But after thy hardness and impenitent heart treasurest up unto thyself wrath against the day of wrath and revelation of the righteous judgment of God;"

Fourth, all the verbs used to describe this person are found in the present tense which show these are this person continuous unchanging characteristic actions.

Finally, when all these facts are taken in account together, Paul is addressing any person hearing this reading that fits the characteristics previously described in Romans 1:18-32 - the unregenerate gentile just as Romans 2:16-27 addresses any unregenerate Jew that fits such characteristics among the hearing audiance. Hence, there is no contrast of good versus bad persons being considered in verses 1-5 or 16-27but only unregenerate persons.

Furthermore, there is no contradiction between elective grace and no respect of persons by God in judgement. All sinners alike deserve judgement but no sinner deserves or can demand grace. You are the one that believes election is based upon forseen action by some but not others. Hence, God is a respector of persons in your election scheme. In the Biblical scheme election is purely "of grace" (Rom. 9:11, 17; 11:5-6, 7-8) whether it is applied to Israel or to gentiles (Rom. 9:24).

Agreed.

However this is in the context of vs 4 "the goodness of God leads you to repentance" - and in Acts 17:30 it plays out this way "God is calling all men everywhere to repentance". That righteous judgment of God is also in the context of future "gospel judgment" mentioned in 2:16.



If we gloss over the case of the gentiles mentioned in vs 6-15 who fail and the other gentiles listed that succeed as well as the case of the Jews that succeed for "immortality and eternal life" as explicitly stated IN the text itself - and just imagine that we only see Jews mentioned in those verses and further we imagine that we only see those Jews failing... then we have ... quite an imagination!



True - that is the point of Chapter 3 - but in Chapter 2 we see the cases of both those who have the law of God written on the heart under the New Covenant - and the cases of the lost that doe not have that.

We are shown in Chapter 2 - that there are both Jews AND Gentiles in represented in each group (The New Covenant group -1, and the lost group -2).

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This Advances the Romans 1 point where Paul starts off telling the reader that his gospel is intended to bring about "the obedience of faith among the gentiles". Rom 1:5



This advances the point of Rom 1:16 "the Gospel for it is the power of God for salvation to everyone who believes to the Jew first and also to the Greek"

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This flatly refutes the doctrine of arbitrary selection.



This goes to the direct Gospel concept of justification. A concept not even applicable in a "law only model". In the no-Gospel model there is no such thing as needing justification or being justified after having sinned.

The doers of the law "shall be justified" is a concept only applicable to the Gospel.



This is a clear reference to the New Covenant model of the Law of God written on the heart and is also mentioned at the end of Romans 2 under the illustration of the heart that is circumcised by the Holy Spirit.

It also points to a future time of judgment - that is Gospel Judgment and deals with such cases as the saved who are under the New Covenant.

Paul continues to speak to "you" the reader of the letter to the Romans.



Paul is speaking to "you" the readers of the letter who view themselves as Bible aware - instructors of the lost world of sinners. Who have decided to also themselves live in rebellion to the Law of God just as those they condemn.

At no point does Paul claim that this is the fate of the saints or of the saints mentioned in Vs 1:1-16.



Paul argues for REAL obedience vs condemning REAL rebellion and says that in the case of those readers of his letter that are living in real rebellion they are causing the name of God to be blasphemed among the gentiles. Gentiles SEE those who are supposed to know the One true God of the Bible - living as sinners yet claiming to be accepted by God and so the gentiles in this case are led to blaspheme God. Paul does not here claim to be such a Jew.



Paul is not an example of a jew who is not circumcised in that context.



Paul's argument here only works if it is true that there indeed are saved Gentiles in this case - whose godly lives condemned lost Jews. And indeed - that was true statement even in Paul's day.

Under the New Covenant the saved man (Jew or Gentile) will be circumcised in heart - a new heart - a new creation - with the Law of God written on the heart and the "fruit" of the new birth seen in the life.

 

[Andre]

I demonstrated that your position of Romans 2:4 is incorrect by simply interpreting it by the immediate context of verses 1-5. Paul introduces the judgement in Romans 2:6-7 with a self-righteous hypocrit (vv. 1-5) who judges others but actually believes he will escape the judgement of God simply because God does not judge him immediately.

It is indeed true that Paul is addressing a self-righteous hypocrite in verses 1-5. But this is hardly an argument that Paul does not mean what he writes in 2:6-8, namely that some will get eternal life based on doing good and others will get wrath based on doing evil.

Let me explain why: Yes, Paul chastises the hypocrite in verses 1 to 5. Then he connects that chastisement to a coming judgement where he says some will get life based on works and others will get condemnation.

I have no idea at all what argument there is here that we should not take Paul exactly at his word - that some will get eternal life based on good works and others will get wrath. Let's return to the hypocrite who he is chastising: Clearly we can indeed take Paul at his word in verses 6 and following and coherently connect this to the warning to the hypocrite.

The reason: it is clear that Paul is warning the hypocrite that he is in danger of falling into the camp of those who will get wrath. There is, therefore, no reason at all why we should not believe the other side of the judgement - that there will indeed be some who get life based on their good deeds.

 

[Andre]

What you fail to see is that Romans 2:6-15 provides the guidelines of justice that prevent any sinner from thinking he can escape the judgement of God.

Not true. My argument fully incorporates the warning to the sinner that he cannot escape the judgement of God.

The principles of divine justice are set forth and in order that "O man whosoever thou art" will know that God's principles of justice are fair and equitable and there is no escape. However, in setting out principles of justice in judgement both negative and positive standards and consequences must be stated.

I agree - there is nothing in my position that denies that both positive and negative standards are set forth. What is interesting to me is why you, and so many others, think that Paul says some will get eternal life based on doing good and yet, at the same time, knows that this is not really true after, and that zero persons will get life in that way.

Do you not think this is suspicious? If your "standard" argument were correct, Paul might say something like "The standard for getting eternal life is that you have to do good works". And then you could indeed mount the argument that Paul is soon going to tell us that attaining this standard is impossible.

But, of course, Paul does not do that - he makes a clear and unambiguous declaration of what will actually happen at the end of time:

God "will give to each person according to what he has done."[a] 7To those who by persistence in doing good seek glory, honor and immortality, he will give eternal life.

This is not merely a statement of a standard, it is a statement that some will indeed pass the standard. No competent writer, wishing to communicate an unattainable standard about getting life based on good works would cross the line and declare that there is a "those" who will indeed get eternal life in this way. This goes beyond the mere articulation of a standard and entails a commitment to the proposition that some will indeed meet it.

 

[Dr. Walter]

I said this before but the last words of verse 5 "righteous judgment" introduces the subject for why Paul penned verses 6-15 and placed it (vv. 6-15) right between gentile religous hypocrits who believed they would escape judgement (vv. 1-5) and Jewish religious hypocrits who believed they will escape judgement (vv. 16-27).

This text (vv. 6-15) is not placed between a description of lost and saved before or after.

However, the term "righteous" judgement introduces verses 6-15.

Now, here is where you, Bob and I come to our point of disagreement.

You and Bob argue that verses 6-15 are descriptive of actual applications in the last day of judgement to saved and lost. You base that argument upon the consequences that are prescibed to those who continue in law keeping in verses 6-7 in contrast to those who do not and therefore draw the conclusion that law keeping is the basis for final justification before God. I think I have fairly stated your position.

However, my position and interpretation is that Paul is directly addressing self righteous hypocrits who believe they will escape the judgement of God based upon their own perception of righteousness (vv. 1-5; 16-27). It is this perceived "righteousness" in regard to their own works and personal condition that Paul is contrasting with what is really the "righteousness" demanded by the law of God that Paul is addressing in ABSTRACT application in verses 6-15.

In other words, Paul is saying, if you think you will escape the judgement of God based upon your OWN RIGHTEOUS WORKS then let me fill you in on what God's standard of righteousness in regard to YOUR WORKS is all about.

1. IF your works characterize what God's law demands then you get a just reward

2. IF your works characterize what God's law condemns then you get a just reward

3. God will not judge you by what you don't know but by what light you have been given.

4. God will not judge you based upon who you are

5. God will not judge you righteous by merely what you say but by what the law demands to really keep it.

6. God will not judge you rightous by mere external conformity to the Law.

It is on this basis of righteousness by works that Paul concludes in Romans 3:9-21 there is NONE THAT DOETH GOOD, NO, NOT ONE and that the WHOLE WORLD, and EVERY MOUTH is condemned by God's standard of works and that NO FLESH can be justified on the basis of personal performance while they are unregenerate (Rom. 1:18-3:18) or after they are regenerated (Rom. 4:1-21).

It is indeed true that Paul is addressing a self-righteous hypocrite in verses 1-5. But this is hardly an argument that Paul does not mean what he writes in 2:6-8, namely that some will get eternal life based on doing good and others will get wrath based on doing evil.

Let me explain why: Yes, Paul chastises the hypocrite in verses 1 to 5. Then he connects that chastisement to a coming judgement where he says some will get life based on works and others will get condemnation.

I have no idea at all what argument there is here that we should not take Paul exactly at his word - that some will get eternal life based on good works and others will get wrath. Let's return to the hypocrite who he is chastising: Clearly we can indeed take Paul at his word in verses 6 and following and coherently connect this to the warning to the hypocrite.

The reason: it is clear that Paul is warning the hypocrite that he is in danger of falling into the camp of those who will get wrath. There is, therefore, no reason at all why we should not believe the other side of the judgement - that there will indeed be some who get life based on their good deeds.

 

[Andre]

I said this before but the last words of verse 5 "righteous judgment" introduces the subject for why Paul penned verses 6-15 and placed it (vv. 6-15) right between gentile religous hypocrits who believed they would escape judgement (vv. 1-5) and Jewish religious hypocrits who believed they will escape judgement (vv. 16-27).

This text (vv. 6-15) is not placed between a description of lost and saved before or after.

Again, this is not an argument against taking Paul seriously when he asserts that there will be those who will get eternal life based on good works.

Taking Paul at his word in 2:6-7 is entirely consistent with the context as you have correctly described it. The fact that some will indeed get eternal life based on good works (as per 2:6-7) does not change the fact that others will get wrath.

And it is the possibility of getting wrath that these hypocites need to worry about.

Consider this analogy. A teacher warns lazy students that they will not escape the "judgement" of an upcoming examincation. In the middle of this warning, the teach says "Some will pass the examination and get a degree, others will fail the examination and not get a degree".

Does the fact that the overall context is a warning to the lazy students mean that zero persons will pass the exam? Of course not.

So I really do not understand what your argument is here.

It is on this basis of righteousness by works that Paul concludes in Romans 3:9-21 there is NONE THAT DOETH GOOD, NO, NOT ONE and that the WHOLE WORLD, and EVERY MOUTH is condemned by God's standard of works and that NO FLESH can be justified on the basis of personal performance while they are unregenerate (Rom. 1:18-3:18) or after they are regenerated (Rom. 4:1-21).

No. You are taking Paul's argument, which is clearly about those who have not been given the Spirit, and generalizing it into the belief that humanity is stuck in that position.

But Romans 8 states otherwise - the person in Christ is delivered from the "Romans 3" condition and is indeed enabled to good and thereby meet the Romans 2 standard.

Again, why would Paul write of people getting eternal life based on good works, if he, in facts, believes that zero persons will get eternal life in that way?

 

[Dr. Walter]

The following statement is the crux of your difference of interpretation:

The fact that some will indeed get eternal life based on good works (as per 2:6-7) does not change the fact that others will get wrath.

What I believe you fail to perceive is that Paul is responding only to their PERCEPTION that good works = their perceived righteousness - will escape judgement under God's Law. Paul is addressing their perception according to what the reality of how the law of God will justly deal with anyone coming before God on this basis as they plan on doing. If they perceive that works of righteousness will vindicate them then here is the FAIR and JUST principles by which God's Law is applied to works both good and bad.

There is no declaration here that truly justified people HAVE THIS PERCEPTION or will ever FACTUALLY come before God according to this basis. Paul is dealing with the perception of the unregenerate man whose only basis to escape judgement is HIS OWN WORKS.

By contrast in the context of justified people Paul systematically repudiates that this is either their perception or factual in their case (Rom. 4).

Again, this is not an argument against taking Paul seriously when he asserts that there will be those who will get eternal life based on good works.

Taking Paul at his word in 2:6-7 is entirely consistent with the context as you have correctly described it. The fact that some will indeed get eternal life based on good works (as per 2:6-7) does not change the fact that others will get wrath.

And it is the possibility of getting wrath that these hypocites need to worry about.

Consider this analogy. A teacher warns lazy students that they will not escape the "judgement" of an upcoming examincation. In the middle of this warning, the teach says "Some will pass the examination and get a degree, others will fail the examination and not get a degree".

Does the fact that the overall context is a warning to the lazy students mean that zero persons will pass the exam? Of course not.

So I really do not understand what your argument is here.


No. You are taking Paul's argument, which is clearly about those who have not been given the Spirit, and generalizing it into the belief that humanity is stuck in that position.

But Romans 8 states otherwise - the person in Christ is delivered from the "Romans 3" condition and is indeed enabled to good and thereby meet the Romans 2 standard.

Again, why would Paul write of people getting eternal life based on good works, if he, in facts, believes that zero persons will get eternal life in that way?

 

[Dr. Walter]

Correcting Two Misconceptions

Romans 2:1-29 corrects two misconceptions held by unregenerate gentiles and Jews.

1. Some Gentiles THOUGHT since they did not do some or all the bad things listed in Roman 1:21-32 they could escape judgement because they did better or by their good works - Romans 2:1-5

2. Some Jews THOUGHT since they were given the law that this gave them an advantage at judgement over the gentiles and particularly circumcision - Romans 2:11-29

Paul's argument is very simple. Doing better is not good enough but it must be as good as the law demands. Having the law profits you nothing unless you keep the law according to its demands. Having circumcision gives no advantaage unless you keep all the law.

Judgement day will reveal the standard demanded by the law to be righteous by good works and it is the same standard James gives. To fail in "one point" is to fail all points and therefore to keep the law means that you never fail in "one point" but keep all points.

He is not arguing that either the gentile or Jew actually can or do keep either law given to each of them as that is a misconception on their part which judgement day will reveal and his conclusion in Romans 3:9-21 will declare.

The Gentile does not keep the law written on their conscience any better than the Jew keeps the law written on stone. Paul argues with the jews that if they did keep the law written on their conscience they would be more righteous than the Jew with all his law and circumcision. However, Paul is not arguing the gentiles actualy do keep the law written on their conscience any better than the Jew keeps the law written on stone.

 

[Andre]

The following statement is the crux of your difference of interpretation:

The fact that some will indeed get eternal life based on good works (as per 2:6-7) does not change the fact that others will get wrath.

What I believe you fail to perceive is that Paul is responding only to their PERCEPTION that good works = their perceived righteousness - will escape judgement under God's Law. Paul is addressing their perception according to what the reality of how the law of God will justly deal with anyone coming before God on this basis as they plan on doing. If they perceive that works of righteousness will vindicate them then here is the FAIR and JUST principles by which God's Law is applied to works both good and bad.

I do not understand what your argument is and justifies our not taking Romans 2:6-7 at face value.

In verses 1-5, Paul is chastising the hypocrite - someone who does the very bad things he criticizes others for doing. How does justify not taking Romans 2:6-7 as it reads?

There is no declaration here that truly justified people HAVE THIS PERCEPTION or will ever FACTUALLY come before God according to this basis.

This is not a very convincing line of argument. Paul says what he says - that there will be those who are granted eternal life based on persisting in doing good. I am not sure how much clearer Paul could be in claiming that there will be a future judgement where eternal life is awarded according to good works.

Competent people, who have been been a propthetic view of the future do not speak of a future event that they know will not happen. Stated otherwise, such a person would not write of a future judgement where eternal life is awarded accorded to good works while believing precisely zero people will get life in this manner.

 

[Dr. Walter]

I said that Paul is dealing with those who PERCEIVE wrongly that they will escape judgement based upon their perception that their good works will giving them a passing grade on judgement day.

I base this misperception upon clear and explicit contextual statements:

1. Gentiles who perceive themselves BETTER than those described in Romans 1:18-32:

And thinkest thou this, O man, that judgest them which do such things, and doest the same, that thou shalt escape the judgment of God? - Rom. 2:3

Paul is addressing "o man" who has just read his description of the digression of the gentiles into greater and greater wickedness in Romans 1:21-32 and "judged" (condemned) them but concluded they were better than those. This was a misperception of themselves as well as the demands of law. The law does not have a relative standard of righteousness. If you fail "ONE POINT" you are condemned a "sinner" as much as if you failed TWO, TEN, FIFTY, ONE HUNDRED points because to fail in one is to fail in ALL. This is the basis of their misconception because this is exactly how they perceived themselves in comparison to those in chapter one as they perceived the standard of the law to be RELATIVE. Hence, since they were not AS BAD they beleived they would escape the judgement of the law.

2. The Jews had the very same misconception of themselves due to the very same misconception of what it means to keep the law. The law does not have a RELATIVE standard where some who fail only one or two points will escape judgement as sinners over those who fail three or hundred points.

(For not the hearers of the law are just before God, but the doers of the law shall be justified..... Behold, thou art called a Jew, and restest in the law, and makest thy boast of God,
18 And knowest his will, and approvest the things that are more excellent, being instructed out of the law;
19 And art confident that thou thyself art a guide of the blind, a light of them which are in darkness,
20 An instructor of the foolish, a teacher of babes, which hast the form of knowledge and of the truth in the law.
21 Thou therefore which teachest another, teachest thou not thyself? thou that preachest a man should not steal, dost thou steal?
22 Thou that sayest a man should not commit adultery, dost thou commit adultery? thou that abhorrest idols, dost thou commit sacrilege?
23 Thou that makest thy boast of the law, through breaking the law dishonourest thou God?
24 For the name of God is blasphemed among the Gentiles through you, as it is written.
.

Paul could use the present tense "is" in verse 24 and draw this conclusion because the law does not have a RELATIVE standard of righteousness but an ABSOLUTE standard.

3. This Misperception of themselves was based upon their Misconception of the Law's standard. Paul is addressing those who believe they can come before God and be justified according to this misconception of themselves due to misconception of the Law's standard of judgement and that is precisely why he begins the introduction of judgement by the Law of God with the words "righteous judgment" at the end of verse 5.

Your own interpretation of the Law of God is precisely this same misconception that there is a RELATIVE standard used by the Law so that those whose good works out weigh their bad works will be ultimately justified before God.

This is not Paul's view of the Law of God. Paul sees no RELATIVE standard of righteousness but an ABSOLUTE standard of righteousness and that is why he draws the EXACT OPPOSITE conclusion to judgement by law than you do (Rom. 3:9-21).

4. This is why Romans 2:6-10 is not found in the context of anyone who perceives themselves as justified by faith but in a context of those who perceive themselves justified by a RELATIVE standard of works. Those who perceive themselves justified by faith alone DO NOT COME INTO ANY FUTURE JUDGEMENT in regard to entrance into heaven versus hell (Jn. 5:24 - "shall not come into condemnation, but is passed from death to life"). They already have "peace with God" (Rom. 5:1) and a completed standing of "grace" (Rom. 5:2).

Hence, the bottom line is that the misconception of these gentiles as stated clearly in Romans 2:3 and the misconception of these Jews in Romans 2:11,17-24 is the misconception of themselves based upon the misconception of the Law's standard which they assumed was RELATIVE and this is also your own misconception. Judgement day for all who come before God on the basis of these misconceptions will be a shocking surprise to see that the only standard of righteousness of God is ABSOLUTE not relative. Those who are justified by faith in Christ's ABSOLUTE righteousness will be the only ones who pass this judgement because it is HIS WORKS not theirs that God will judge.

I do not understand what your argument is and justifies our not taking Romans 2:6-7 at face value.

In verses 1-5, Paul is chastising the hypocrite - someone who does the very bad things he criticizes others for doing. How does justify not taking Romans 2:6-7 as it reads?


This is not a very convincing line of argument. Paul says what he says - that there will be those who are granted eternal life based on persisting in doing good. I am not sure how much clearer Paul could be in claiming that there will be a future judgement where eternal life is awarded according to good works.

Competent people, who have been been a propthetic view of the future do not speak of a future event that they know will not happen. Stated otherwise, such a person would not write of a future judgement where eternal life is awarded accorded to good works while believing precisely zero people will get life in this manner.

 

[Dr. Walter]

And thinkest thou this, O man, that judgest them which do such things, and doest the same, that thou shalt escape the judgment of God? - Rom. 2:3

We have all agreed on this forum that Paul is addressing a hypocrit in verses 1-5.

Now, let us see what this hypocrisy is. Would you agree with me that in verse 3 above that the hypocrisy has to do with wrong thinking? "And THINKETH THOU THIS"???

Also, would it be wrong thinking toward those Paul previously described in Romans 1:22-32? "them that do such things"? What things? It has to be things they can be condemned for and the only things Paul has listed that have been condemned are those things listed in Romans 1:22-32.

Now, what is the nature of their wrong THINKING? They are joining Paul in condemning them when they are guilty of doing the very same things and yet they feel they will escape judgement while those in Romans 1:22-32 will not escape judgment but are justly condemned. "O man, that judgest them which do such things, and doest the same"

Now, what kind of thinking can condemn others for doing those things listed in Romans 1:22-32 but feel justified they will "escape" judgement when they are guilty of doing the same things? The only kind of thinking that can come to such a conclusion is the kind that thinks COMPARATIVELY and believes they are not AS BAD. This is exactly the kind of thinking by the Jews in Romans 2:17-24. It is the kind of thinking that believes the judgement of God works on a RELATIVE scale of righteousness instead of an ABSOLUTE scale of righteousness.
This is precisely why verse 5 concludes with this description of God's coming "righteous" judgement.
All those who come before God with this kind of WRONG THINKING will be judged RIGHTEOUSLY "according to their works" and the law does not judge RELATIVELY but ABSOLUTELY and that is why it requires only violation of the law in "ONE" point to be guilty of ALL the law. This is why Jesus could say "there is none good but one and that is God."

The law of conscience will condemn you to death as a sinner if you violate it in ONE point just as much as the law of Moses will condemn you to death as a sinner if you violate but ONE point.

Now gentleman, this is precisely why your exposition and conclusion of this passage is directly OPPOSITE to Paul's conclusion in Romans 3:9-21 because you have the same misconception of those Paul is addressing in chapter 2

 

[BobRyan]

And thinkest thou this, O man, that judgest them which do such things, and doest the same, that thou shalt escape the judgment of God? - Rom. 2:3

We have all agreed on this forum that Paul is addressing a hypocrit in verses 1-5.

Now, let us see what this hypocrisy is. Would you agree with me that in verse 3 above that the hypocrisy has to do with wrong thinking? "And THINKETH THOU THIS"???

Also, would it be wrong thinking toward those Paul previously described in Romans 1:22-32? "them that do such things"?

Yes. The vs 1-5 instruction is given to the reader in the church of Rome that is not the saints of Rome mentioned in vs 1-17 of Romans 1.

It is someone who criticizes the same group in Romans 1:18-32 that Paul condemns.

And so in Romans 2 the remainder of the chapter after vs 5 - Paul shows them the way of life and contrasts it with the way of death.

Paul shows in Romans 2- that there are BOTH Jews and Gentiles on those two roads.

As was already noted here -
http://www.baptistboard.com/showthread.php?t=66530&page=3

in Christ,

Bob

 

[Dr. Walter]

The text says "WHOSOVER THOU ART" and you want to limit it to a special restricted class!

He is talking to ANYONE who fits this description whether they are members or non-members, listeners, readers, present or not present. He is talking about EVERYBODY who fits this description.

The only kind of person that can condemn those in Romans 1:18-32 and yet are guilty of doing the same things is a person who "THINKETH" that God's Law judges on a SLIDING SCALE and they will escape judgment because they perceive themselves on the UPPER SIDE of that scale.

God has no SLIDING SCALE as James speaking to professed saved people (JAMES 2:10) denies any sliding scale for BELIEVERS.

This is precisely why the last words of Romans 2:5 introduce the judgement of God in regard to those who come before him with that kind of THINKING to inform them that God's judgment will be "RIGHTEOUS" as God defines it not according to their MISCONCEPTION that cause them to THINK they will escape the judgement of God.

BTW you fit this description

Yes. The vs 1-5 instruction is given to the reader in the church of Rome that is not the saints of Rome mentioned in vs 1-17 of Romans 1.

It is someone who criticizes the same group in Romans 1:18-32 that Paul condemns.

And so in Romans 2 the remainder of the chapter after vs 5 - Paul shows them the way of life and contrasts it with the way of death.

Paul shows in Romans 2- that there are BOTH Jews and Gentiles on those two roads.

As was already noted here -
http://www.baptistboard.com/showthread.php?t=66530&page=3

in Christ,

Bob

 

[BobRyan]

1 Therefore you have no excuse, everyone of youwho passes judgment, for in that which you judge another, you condemn yourself; for you who judge practice the same things.
2 And we know that the judgment of God rightly falls upon those who practice such things.
3 But do you suppose this, O man, when you pass judgment on those who practice such things and do the same yourself, that you will escape the judgment of God?

The text says "WHOSOVER THOU ART" and you want to limit it to a special restricted class!

In Rom 1:18-end of chapter - Paul writes to the church about "THEY" about "THOSE" in the 3rd person who are pagans - Paul calls them barbarians who do not have access to scripture.

At no point does Paul claim in the letter to the Romans "you" do not have scripture.

in Rom 2:1-4 Paul is writing to "you WHO passes judgment" because it is "you" who are a teacher of the law and it is that "you" who boasts in the law through breaking the Law of God.

This is not Paul condeming "me" (himself) nor condemning the Rom 1:1-17 list of saints he claims to be in harmony with.

He is talking to ANYONE who fits this description whether they are members or non-members, listeners, readers, present or not present. He is talking about EVERYBODY who fits this description.

That is true in a secondary sense - but the primary and most direct application is to the readers in Rome as the context clearly dictates.

It is also clear that the condemnation we see in Chapter 2:1-5 is NOT directed at the saints who were just approved in Rom 1:1-17, nor is Paul directing that condemnation at himself.

The only kind of person that can condemn those in Romans 1:18-32 and yet are guilty of doing the same things is a person who "THINKETH" that God's Law judges on a SLIDING SCALE

A nice imaginative assertion.

Paul himself is judging those in Rom 1:18-32 and Paul is writing to the saints of Rom 1:1-17 saying that "you" know that "they" (the barbarians who do not have access to scripture) do those things and are condemned.

But Paul does not condemn himself for "noticing that fact" nor does he turn around and condemn that saved group already identified in the first half of chapter 1. (At least not yet in Chapter 2. We will need chapter 3 for that)

in Christ,

Bob

 

[Dr. Walter]

A nice imaginative assertion.

Paul himself is judging those in Rom 1:18-32 and Paul is writing to the saints of Rom 1:1-17 saying that "you" know that "they" (the barbarians who do not have access to scripture) do those things and are condemned.

But Paul does not condemn himself for "noticing that fact" nor does he turn around and condemn that saved group already identified in the first half of chapter 1. Bob

There is no imagination required. Paul explicity states their thinking is wrong - "thinketh thou" - v. 3. They agree with Paul that those in Romans 1:18-32 are to be condemned. The problem is that they are guilt of the same things but in their mind they believe they will escape judgement. How is it possible to agree that such should be condemned and yet think that you can escape judgement if you do the same things?

The answer is exactly the same in regard to the Jew in verses 17-24. He also judges the gentiles as worthy of condemnation but believes he shall escape judgement even when he is guilty of violating exactly what he teaches others. How can he believe that?

Those in Romans 1:18-32 do not believe they will escape judgement - v. 32

Who knowing the judgment of God, that they which commit such things are worthy of death, not only do the same, but have pleasure in them that do them.

Those in Romans 2:1-5 and 2:17-24 claim to be MORE RIGHTEOUS and that is the basis for their hypocrisy as well as their belief they will escape judgement, but those in Romans 1:32 do not claim to be righteous at all nor claim to escape the judgement of God.

This assumption is based on the belief that judgement will be on a SLIDING SCALE and that is exactly what you believe Bob. Romans 2:3 is directly addressed to Bob.

 

[BobRyan]

1 Therefore you have no excuse, everyone of you who passes judgment, for in that which you judge another, you condemn yourself; for you who judge practice the same things.
2 And we know that the judgment of God rightly falls upon those who practice such things.
3 But do you suppose this, O man, when you pass judgment on those who practice such things and do the same yourself, that you will escape the judgment of God?

In Rom 1:18-end of chapter - Paul writes to the church about "THEY" about "THOSE" in the 3rd person who are pagans - Paul calls them barbarians who do not have access to scripture.

At no point does Paul claim in the letter to the Romans "you" do not have scripture.

in Rom 2:1-4 Paul is writing to "you WHO passes judgment" because it is "you" who are a teacher of the law and it is that "you" who boasts in the law through breaking the Law of God.

This is not Paul condeming "me" (himself) nor condemning the Rom 1:1-17 list of saints he claims to be in harmony with.

There is no exegetically valid way to bend the Bible so that those condemned in Romans 2 are those approved of in Romans 1.

It is impossible.

There is no imagination required. Paul explicity states their thinking is wrong - "thinketh thou" - v. 3.

Indeed - Paul is very explicit about just who it is that is condemened by contrast to those approved in Romans 1.

The problem is that they are guilt of the same things

True - and so Paul condemns them.

At no point does Paul attribute their rebellion against God - to himself or to the other saints of Romans 1:1-17.

And so Paul sets before them - life vs death. Life for the saints (both Jews and gentiles) and death for the wicked (both Jews and Gentiles). This is nothing like Calvinism's arbitrary selection model that the Jews were also relying upon.

Impossible for the objective unbiased reader here to miss, gloss over, skip and ignore.

7 to those who by perseverance in doing good seek for glory and honor and immortality, eternal life;
8 but to those who are selfishly ambitious and do not obey the truth, but obey unrighteousness, wrath and indignation.
9 There will be tribulation and distress for every soul of man who does evil, of the Jew first and also of the Greek,
10 but glory and honor and peace to everyone who does good, to the Jew first and also to the Greek.


11 For there is no partiality with God.
12 For all who have sinned without the Law will also perish without the Law, and all who have sinned under the Law will be judged by the Law;
13 for it is not the hearers of the Law who are just before God, but the doers of the Law will be justified.

14 For when Gentiles who do not have the Law do instinctively the things of the Law, these, not having the Law, are a law to themselves,
15 in that they show the work of the Law written in their hearts, their conscience bearing witness and their thoughts alternately accusing or else defending them,
16 on the day when, according to my gospel, God will judge the secrets of men through Christ Jesus.



in Christ,

Bob

 

[Dr. Walter]

Your response makes perfect nonsense. I never said that those condemned in Romans 2:18-32 are those approved in Romans 2:1-5; 17-24 - they are all condemned in the judgement in Romans 2:6-15. Those in Romans 1:1-17 "shall not come into condemnation but is passed from death unto life" (Jn. 5:24; Rom. 5:1-2; 8:28-39).

Those in Romans 1:1-17 are not described until Romans 3:21-8:39.

Romans 1:18-3:8 is to prove why the gospel needs to be preached to the outright ungodly (1:18-32) and to the self-righteous who believe they can escape judgement because they see themselves better than others and therefore assume they will escape a SLIDING SCALE judgement (Rom. 2:1-29).

It is clear and simple and Paul's conclusion in Romans 3:9 takes the reader back to the introduction of wrath against the Gentile (Rom. 1:18) to his judgement in Romans 2:5-11) and then proceeds to condemn the Jew on the same basis (Rom. 2:12-3:8).

Any conclusion of this designated and ear marked section by Paul in Romans 3:9 that draws a different conclusion than Paul in Romans 3:10-21 is based upon the very same problem by the very same type of self-righteous people described in Romans 2.

There is no exegetically valid way to bend the Bible so that those condemned in Romans 2 are those approved of in Romans 1.

At no point does Paul attribute their rebellion against God - to himself or to the other saints of Romans 1:1-17.

 

[BobRyan]

There is no exegetically valid way to bend the Bible so that those condemned in Romans 2 are those approved of in Romans 1.

It is impossible.

Indeed - Paul is very explicit about just who it is that is condemened by contrast to those approved in Romans 1.

Your response makes perfect nonsense. I never said that those condemned in Romans 2:18-32 are those approved in Romans 2:1-5; 17-24 - they are all condemned

There is no "all condemned" statement in Romans 2 - no not one.

they are all condemned in the judgement in Romans 2:6-15.

The idea of adding whiteout to the text so that it only mentions the failing cases is an extreme that I had hoped you would not resort to -

=====================================
6 who WILL RENDER TO EACH PERSON ACCORDING TO HIS DEEDS:

7 to those who by perseverance in doing good seek for glory and honor and immortality, eternal life;
8 but to those who are selfishly ambitious and do not obey the truth, but obey unrighteousness, wrath and indignation.
9 There will be tribulation and distress for every soul of man who does evil, of the Jew first and also of the Greek,
10 but glory and honor and peace to everyone who does good, to the Jew first and also to the Greek.


11 For there is no partiality with God.
12 For all who have sinned without the Law will also perish without the Law, and all who have sinned under the Law will be judged by the Law;
13 for it is not the hearers of the Law who are just before God, but the doers of the Law will be justified.

14 For when Gentiles who do not have the Law do instinctively the things of the Law, these, not having the Law, are a law to themselves,
15 in that they show the work of the Law written in their hearts, their conscience bearing witness and their thoughts alternately accusing or else defending them,
16 on the day when, according to my gospel, God will judge the secrets of men through Christ Jesus
=======================================

The inconvenient details SHOW approval, immortality and eternal life rendered at the future "Gospel" judgment.

Your argument clearly states that you need to ignore what is written in the text itself and pretend that the text said only "and all will be condemned in that future judgment according to my gospel".

Your argument fails the sola scriptura test at that point.

in Christ,

Bob