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Romans 3:10-18 - All people or just some?
- Thread starter Andy T.
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Calvibaptist
New Member
Why, then, did Jesus tell his disciples to seek, ask, and knock? Are you now saying that they weren't saved even though you, in your last few posts said they were? What's it going to be, Helen?
Hebrews 11:6 But without faith it is impossible to please Him, for he who comes to God must believe that He is, and that He is a rewarder of those who diligently seek Him.
Does the faith (or seeking God) stop at the point of salvation? Absolutely not. We continue to seek Him because we do not fully know Him until we see Him as He is.
Craigbythesea
Well-Known Member
Paul is, in this passage of Scripture, quoting verses from the Old Testament to document his teaching that all men, including the Jews, have sinned and fall short of the glory of God (Rom 3:23). All of the Old Testament quotes that he used in this passage were hyperbolic and, of course, Paul new that because he knew that these passages describe many but not all of the Jews. And, of course, Paul knew that they did not describe him as a Jew because he, like other Jews who truly loved God and his word, lived in obedience to the requirements of the Law and under the Law were blameless (Phil. 3:6).
So then, was the death of Christ on the cross unnecessary for these men who did not sin but who obeyed the law to the letter? Paul clearly saw that argument coming and he addressed that issue In Rom. 5:12-19,
Rom. 5:12. Therefore, just as through one man sin entered into the world, and death through sin, and so death spread to all men, because all sinned--
13. for until the Law sin was in the world, but sin is not imputed when there is no law.
14. Nevertheless death reigned from Adam until Moses, even over those who had not sinned in the likeness of the offense of Adam, who is a type of Him who was to come.
15. But the free gift is not like the transgression. For if by the transgression of the one the many died, much more did the grace of God and the gift by the grace of the one Man, Jesus Christ, abound to the many.
16. The gift is not like that which came through the one who sinned; for on the one hand the judgment arose from one transgression resulting in condemnation, but on the other hand the free gift arose from many transgressions resulting in justification.
17. For if by the transgression of the one, death reigned through the one, much more those who receive the abundance of grace and of the gift of righteousness will reign in life through the One, Jesus Christ.
18. So then as through one transgression there resulted condemnation to all men, even so through one act of righteousness there resulted justification of life to all men.
19. For as through the one man's disobedience the many were made sinners, even so through the obedience of the One the many will be made righteous.
Although Paul and other Jews who deeply loved God and his word did not break the Law and had no need of a redeemer for any sins that they had personally committed, they had sinned in Adam and bore the guilt of original sin. And for that sin, they needed a redeemer, and only the Christ was free from original sin and only He, therefore, could pay the price for that sin.
(All Scriptures are from the NASB, 1995)
So then, was the death of Christ on the cross unnecessary for these men who did not sin but who obeyed the law to the letter? Paul clearly saw that argument coming and he addressed that issue In Rom. 5:12-19,
Rom. 5:12. Therefore, just as through one man sin entered into the world, and death through sin, and so death spread to all men, because all sinned--
13. for until the Law sin was in the world, but sin is not imputed when there is no law.
14. Nevertheless death reigned from Adam until Moses, even over those who had not sinned in the likeness of the offense of Adam, who is a type of Him who was to come.
15. But the free gift is not like the transgression. For if by the transgression of the one the many died, much more did the grace of God and the gift by the grace of the one Man, Jesus Christ, abound to the many.
16. The gift is not like that which came through the one who sinned; for on the one hand the judgment arose from one transgression resulting in condemnation, but on the other hand the free gift arose from many transgressions resulting in justification.
17. For if by the transgression of the one, death reigned through the one, much more those who receive the abundance of grace and of the gift of righteousness will reign in life through the One, Jesus Christ.
18. So then as through one transgression there resulted condemnation to all men, even so through one act of righteousness there resulted justification of life to all men.
19. For as through the one man's disobedience the many were made sinners, even so through the obedience of the One the many will be made righteous.
Although Paul and other Jews who deeply loved God and his word did not break the Law and had no need of a redeemer for any sins that they had personally committed, they had sinned in Adam and bore the guilt of original sin. And for that sin, they needed a redeemer, and only the Christ was free from original sin and only He, therefore, could pay the price for that sin.
(All Scriptures are from the NASB, 1995)
Why, then, did Jesus tell his disciples to seek, ask, and knock? Are you now saying that they weren't saved even though you, in your last few posts said they were? What's it going to be, Helen?
1. The disciples were not given the Holy Spirit until Pentecost
2. Jesus is giving a list of directions, explanation, and helps in the Sermon on the Mount. Note that immediately after the section on "Ask, Seek, Knock," we find the following "Enter through the narrow gate. for wide is the gate and broad is the road that leads to destruction, and many enter through it. But small is the gate and narrow the road that leads to life, and only a few find it."
So, first of all, if they have not yet entered through that narrow gate, and they evidently had not, then they are not yet saved. Secondly, they are told to FIND the narrow way, and that involves seeking. This was spoken to the disciples, one of whom was Judas, we know that they were not saved at that point in terms of being born again and having the Holy Spirit.
Hebrews 11:6 But without faith it is impossible to please Him, for he who comes to God must believe that He is, and that He is a rewarder of those who diligently seek Him.
Does the faith (or seeking God) stop at the point of salvation? Absolutely not. We continue to seek Him because we do not fully know Him until we see Him as He is.
1. Even the demons KNOW He is, so that part does not require salvation! Therefore believing that God IS does not require anything other than being a sentient human being. From there one can either seek or not seek, and God has already said, as I have quoted from Jeremiah, that He will be found by those who seek Him with their whole heart.
2. No, we do not continue to seek HIM when we are born again, for He indwells us. But we do seek His will in our lives every moment and we do seek to know Him better. But we no longer have to seek Him as a Person. He is here, within the Christian.
1. The disciples were not given the Holy Spirit until Pentecost
2. Jesus is giving a list of directions, explanation, and helps in the Sermon on the Mount. Note that immediately after the section on "Ask, Seek, Knock," we find the following "Enter through the narrow gate. for wide is the gate and broad is the road that leads to destruction, and many enter through it. But small is the gate and narrow the road that leads to life, and only a few find it."
So, first of all, if they have not yet entered through that narrow gate, and they evidently had not, then they are not yet saved. Secondly, they are told to FIND the narrow way, and that involves seeking. This was spoken to the disciples, one of whom was Judas, we know that they were not saved at that point in terms of being born again and having the Holy Spirit.
Hebrews 11:6 But without faith it is impossible to please Him, for he who comes to God must believe that He is, and that He is a rewarder of those who diligently seek Him.
Does the faith (or seeking God) stop at the point of salvation? Absolutely not. We continue to seek Him because we do not fully know Him until we see Him as He is.
1. Even the demons KNOW He is, so that part does not require salvation! Therefore believing that God IS does not require anything other than being a sentient human being. From there one can either seek or not seek, and God has already said, as I have quoted from Jeremiah, that He will be found by those who seek Him with their whole heart.
2. No, we do not continue to seek HIM when we are born again, for He indwells us. But we do seek His will in our lives every moment and we do seek to know Him better. But we no longer have to seek Him as a Person. He is here, within the Christian.
Ro 3:19 Now we know that what things soever the law saith, it saith to them who are under the law: that every mouth may be stopped, and all the world may become guilty before God.
20 Therefore by the deeds of the law there shall no flesh be justified in his sight: for by the law is the knowledge of sin.
21 But now (Oh, big change from the law) the righteousness of God without the law is manifested, being witnessed by the law and the prophets;
22 Even the righteousness of God which is by faith of Jesus Christ "UNTO ALL".....and....."UPON ALL" them that "BELIEVE": for there is no difference: (between sinners, God is no respecter of sinners)
23 For all have sinned, and come short of the glory of God;
Joh 3:17 For God sent not his Son into the world to condemn the world; but that the world through him might be saved.
Joh 3:19 And this is the condemnation, (not sin)
that light is come into the world, and men loved darkness rather than light, (unbelief condemns)
because their deeds were evil.
1Jo 5:4 For whatsoever is born of God overcometh the world: and this is the victory that overcometh the world, even "OUR" faith. (in Jesus)
1Jo 5:10 He that believeth on the Son of God hath the witness in himself: he that believeth not God hath made him a liar; because he believeth not the record that God gave of his Son.
Man makes God a liar, God doesn't make himself a lair through men.
The charge against man isn't for being a sinner, we're all guilty of that charge, but for remaining a sinner in spite of Jesus dying for "All sins".
Men love the darkness rather than the light, is "WHY" they are still under the law.
Job 34:16 If now thou hast understanding, hear this: hearken to the voice of my words.
17 Shall even he that hateth right govern? and wilt thou condemn him that is most just?
Job 34:23 For he will not lay upon man more than right; that he should enter into judgment with God.
Job 36:11 If they obey and serve him, they shall spend their days in prosperity, and their years in pleasures.
12 But if they obey not, they shall perish by the sword, and they shall die without knowledge.
I would/you wouldn't makes the guilty party standing in front of the bench, not sitting "on the bench".
what a rediculous statement, of course the one who has been born again of the spirit of God SEEKS God! we are now NEW creations old things are past away behold all things become new. our spirit and God's spirit are now one. we seek God's will the unregenerated DO NOT.
So please do not confuse Helen's verses on SEEK to be for everyone, those who are NOT saved DO NOT SEEK AFTER GOD
THOSE WHO ARE SAVED DO SEEK AFTER GOD </font>[/QUOTE]OT Saints didn't receive a "CALLING" as we do, they didn't have a "Comforter", the "Holy Ghost" only arrived after Jesus came/left.
Yet they did "seek God" in attempting to keep the commandments/Sacrifices, how did they manage to do that without a "Spiritual calling", has the "Nature of man" changed from the OT to the NT???
One sin makes you a sinner on the road to hell, after that one sin, the other sins really don't matter, you're as "vile" as "Adolf Hitler" in the sight of God, do you think it's possible for an unsaved person to keep 9 of the 10 commandments??
According to calvin, it's not possible, man is so depraved, he can't even keep 1, do you buy that??
[ March 25, 2006, 03:04 AM: Message edited by: Me4Him ]
Calvibaptist
New Member
It doesn't matter whether anyone is able to keep any of the commandments. If you offend in one point, you offend in all.
And no, I don't believe that an unbeliever can keep even one of the commandments. Jesus showed us in Matthew 5 that the commandments are more than just the keeping of the letter. There is motivation behind it that unbelievers lack.
4His_glory
New Member
It doesn't matter whether anyone is able to keep any of the commandments. If you offend in one point, you offend in all.
And no, I don't believe that an unbeliever can keep even one of the commandments. Jesus showed us in Matthew 5 that the commandments are more than just the keeping of the letter. There is motivation behind it that unbelievers lack. </font>[/QUOTE]Amen.
Also we know from Scripture that man is born in condemnation and a sinner even before he commits an "act of sin".
Brother Bob
New Member
KJMatt.19
So was this young man saved? He said he kept them all and he was talking to The Master who surely would of known if he was truthful or not.
"18": He saith unto him, Which? Jesus said, Thou shalt do no murder, Thou shalt not commit adultery, Thou shalt not steal, Thou shalt not bear false witness,
"19": Honour thy father and thy mother: and, Thou shalt love thy neighbour as thyself.
"20": The young man saith unto him, All these things have I kept from my youth up: what lack I yet?
"21": Jesus said unto him, If thou wilt be perfect, go and sell that thou hast, and give to the poor, and thou shalt have treasure in heaven: and come and follow me.
"22": But when the young man heard that saying, he went away sorrowful: for he had great possessions .
So was this young man saved? He said he kept them all and he was talking to The Master who surely would of known if he was truthful or not.
"18": He saith unto him, Which? Jesus said, Thou shalt do no murder, Thou shalt not commit adultery, Thou shalt not steal, Thou shalt not bear false witness,
"19": Honour thy father and thy mother: and, Thou shalt love thy neighbour as thyself.
"20": The young man saith unto him, All these things have I kept from my youth up: what lack I yet?
"21": Jesus said unto him, If thou wilt be perfect, go and sell that thou hast, and give to the poor, and thou shalt have treasure in heaven: and come and follow me.
"22": But when the young man heard that saying, he went away sorrowful: for he had great possessions .
THANKS, you saved me the trouble.
Calvinist can't go from one doctrine to the next without forgetting the former and placing it in context with the next.
Like the AC, there's many who "Appear" to be "Sons of God" in their "daily walk" but inside are "sons of Satan", saying, "Lord, have we not cast out devils in your name".
The truth of calvin isn't manifested in what we see here in the "real world", and that in it's self, proves the error.
I figured that you would come back with that. But here's the problem - if I reject that verse out of hand, then I need to reject all of ch. 15 (since he was talking to the disciples), and all of ch. 16 (talking to the 12), ch. 17 (talking to and praying for the 12). In fact, that means the majority of the Gospels don't apply to us since Jesus spends most of his time teaching the disciples.
So going back to 15:16 - it is a principle being taught here - that God does the choosing. Certainly it was directed to the 12, just as v. 17 was. But we don't reject v. 17 out of hand because He was directly addressing the 12!
Your line of reasoning makes the majority of the Gospels moot to us today.
The man's response in v. 22 shows that he couldn't even keep commandment number 1. This man had not kept those other commandments either. The fact that Jesus doesn't correct him outright doesn't negate that fact. Jesus brought him back to square one to show that he couldn't even keep the 1st commandment.
The rich young ruler was not saved at this point. He was relying on himself to keep the law. Impossible. We can only hope that he later repented and put his faith in Christ alone.
You're "SOUL" (spirit) is born into a "BODY OF SIN", the flesh, which, as soon as its old enough to "know good/evil" will chose to commit "one sin", that's when you become a sinner,
Jas 1:14 But every man is tempted, when he is drawn away of his own lust, and enticed.
15 Then when lust hath conceived, it bringeth forth sin: and sin, when it is finished, bringeth forth death.
"Spiritually", You don't become a sinner until that "lust is conceived".
God doesn't save the flesh, it wars against God as long as it lives, the Soul, or Conscienceness of man is what God "Purges from following the lust of the flesh", but either way, saved/lost, the flesh is never subject to obey the law, and dies for it's sins.
Ga 5:17 For the flesh lusteth against the Spirit, and the Spirit against the flesh: and these are contrary the one to the other: so that ye cannot do the things that ye would.
Ro 8:7 Because the carnal mind is enmity against God: for it is not subject to the law of God, neither indeed can be.
Heb 9:14 How much more shall the blood of Christ, who through the eternal Spirit offered himself without spot to God, purge your conscience from dead works to serve the living God?
Ro 13:1 Let every soul be subject unto the higher powers.
Eze 18:20 The soul that sinneth, it shall die.
I'd suggest learning the differences between the "flesh and Soul".
4His_glory
New Member
Me4,
You need to learn proper hermenutics man, you always use things out of context.
Are you saying we are not born sinners? Do you deny the doctrine of original sin?
And whats with this "God doesn't save the flesh" thing you are claiming? Salvation is complete, my flesh/body will be glorified at the ressurection and I shall be as He is. I believe in a literal bodily ressurection. What do you believe?
You need to learn proper hermenutics man, you always use things out of context.
Are you saying we are not born sinners? Do you deny the doctrine of original sin?
And whats with this "God doesn't save the flesh" thing you are claiming? Salvation is complete, my flesh/body will be glorified at the ressurection and I shall be as He is. I believe in a literal bodily ressurection. What do you believe?
I figured that you would come back with that. But here's the problem - if I reject that verse out of hand, then I need to reject all of ch. 15 (since he was talking to the disciples), and all of ch. 16 (talking to the 12), ch. 17 (talking to and praying for the 12). In fact, that means the majority of the Gospels don't apply to us since Jesus spends most of his time teaching the disciples.
So going back to 15:16 - it is a principle being taught here - that God does the choosing. Certainly it was directed to the 12, just as v. 17 was. But we don't reject v. 17 out of hand because He was directly addressing the 12!
Your line of reasoning makes the majority of the Gospels moot to us today. </font>[/QUOTE]That's a bizarre argument. In chapter 14-16, Jesus is speaking specifically to His disciples. There are, however some universal statements He makes that are clearly universal. Such things as "N
NE comes to the Father except through me...", "ANYONE who has seen me has seen the Father..." "...ANYONE who has faith in me will do what I have been doing. HE will do even greater things than these...", "WHOEVER had my commands and obeys them, he is the one who loves me. He who loves me will be loved by my Father and I too will love him and show myself to him."Chapter 15 continues with the personal address to the disciples and includes some clearly universal statements. You referred to verse 16. Let's put it in the context of a few verses on either side of it and see if Jesus is making a universal statement or talking personally to His disciples here:
"You are my friends if you do what I command. I no longer call you servants, because a servant does not know his master's business. Instead I have called you friends, for everything that I learned from my Father I have made known to you. You did not choose me, but I chose you and appointed you to go and bear fruit -- fruit that will last. Then the Father will give you whatever you ask in my name. This is my command: Love each other."
Now, is that being spoken as a universal? Do we, as Christians, know EVERYTHING Jesus learned from the Father? In fact, the Bible tells us we are neither servants nor friends, but His adopted siblings! So it appears that this section of 15 is personally to the disciples.
In fact, look at the way 15 ends: "When the Counselor comes, whom I will send to you from the Father, the Spirit of truth who goes out from the Father, he will testify about me. And you also must testify, for you have been with me from the beginning."
1. Are we still waiting for the Spirit?
2. Were we among those with him from the beginning?
The clear answer to both is no, for we who are born again in Him already have the Holy Spirit indwelling us and none of us was born 2000+ years ago!
Again, context is everything.
Your argument that just about all the rest of the four Gospels should be thrown out because Jesus was talking to His disciples personally here is nonsense. John himself writes so that people may believe!
There is something that must be mentioned about the young ruler and Jesus, too. Look at the question Jesus was responding to and you will see why Jesus said what He said. In verse 16, the man asks, "Teacher, what good thing must I do to get eternal life?"
He is asking what HE must do. How can HE save HIMSELF? THAT is the question Jesus is answering. And in order to save oneself, Jesus says, the law must be kept perfectly.
Only He kept the law perfectly, and thus it is only in Him we can be saved.
4His_glory, a sin is defined as transgressing the Law. Can you please tell me what sin a baby commits? According to Paul in Romans 7, the law must be known for sin to be able to separate a person from God. I agree that babies are born with a sin nature that WILL exert itself and, when they knowingly transgress God's law, will cause their spiritual death, but there is nothing in the Bible which indicates that babies are born separated from God and there are several indications by Jesus in Matthew 18 and 19 that they are not separated at all -- not spiritually dead.
This man "literally" kept all the commandments without being saved, so calvin doctrine of none seeking God unsaved is clearly refuted.
I've heard of people going to church 40 years, keeping all the commandments, going through all the motions/appearances of a Christians, even being elected Deacons, then were saved.
These are people who "serve God" in the flesh, not in "Spirit", and when you take a long hard look at the world around you, this is where many people are today, going through the motions of a Christian on Sunday, teaching things that "seemeth right", but the "witness" to their works (HG) won't bear witness the works were "wrought in God",
The "Falling away" Paul prophesied is a "Spiritual" falling aways, there's no spirit in their works because the Spirit isn't Leading/Guiding/Teaching for those works.
In today's world, there's as many, if not more, sons of satan sitting on pews in a building with a CROSS on top and there are "Sons of God", Satan also likes to go to church, where he's "Welcome".
Helen, your rebuttal falls flat.
v. 15 - "for all things I have heard from my Father I have made known to you." This verse is not speaking of imparting omniscience to the 12, as you imply above. He's speaking of His incarnation - how Jesus is God in the flesh and everything we need for salvation and living a godly life is known through Jesus Christ, the God-man.
And regarding v.26 and the Holy Spirit - that still applies to us today too - when we are born again he indwells us with the Holy Spirit, as you admit to such above. And v. 27, of course we weren't there "from the beginning" of Christ's earthly ministry. But that doesn't negate the principle in 27a - "And you will bear witness..." Example: None of us were in the boat when Jesus walked on water and then Peter did and failed. That physical act of walking on water does not apply to us, because we weren't there. But the principles being taught do apply.
So back to v. 16 - the principle being taught is one that cannot be ignored and dismissed as applying only to the 12. Your abritrary picking and choosing of verses that don't apply is just that...arbitrary.
I've got a way you can explain these verses away - why don't you just say that Jesus chose the disciples on their foreseen faith? That makes sense to you, right? Now all you have to do is find Scripture to support such a claim. Happy hunting.
v. 15 - "for all things I have heard from my Father I have made known to you." This verse is not speaking of imparting omniscience to the 12, as you imply above. He's speaking of His incarnation - how Jesus is God in the flesh and everything we need for salvation and living a godly life is known through Jesus Christ, the God-man.
And regarding v.26 and the Holy Spirit - that still applies to us today too - when we are born again he indwells us with the Holy Spirit, as you admit to such above. And v. 27, of course we weren't there "from the beginning" of Christ's earthly ministry. But that doesn't negate the principle in 27a - "And you will bear witness..." Example: None of us were in the boat when Jesus walked on water and then Peter did and failed. That physical act of walking on water does not apply to us, because we weren't there. But the principles being taught do apply.
So back to v. 16 - the principle being taught is one that cannot be ignored and dismissed as applying only to the 12. Your abritrary picking and choosing of verses that don't apply is just that...arbitrary.
I've got a way you can explain these verses away - why don't you just say that Jesus chose the disciples on their foreseen faith? That makes sense to you, right? Now all you have to do is find Scripture to support such a claim. Happy hunting.
4His_glory
New Member
One does not have to commit sin to be a sinner.
Ps 51:5 Behold, I was brought forth in iniquity, And in sin my mother conceived me.
Sin passes upon all men as Paul indicates:
Ro 5:12 Therefore, just as through one man sin entered the world, and death through sin, and thus death spread to all men, because all sinned—
Bad interpretaion of Rm 7 as well. What about those that do not know the law? Are they not sinners.