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Romans 4:10
- Thread starter kyredneck
- Start date
Kyredneck, you quoted this passage:
Please identify the entity that fulfills each part of this passage:
What is the name of this nation?
Who is spoken of here, and how did this person become a blessing?
Who are the families that are blessed and how are they blessed?
Tell you what. You go first, answer your own questions; then I'll follow suit.
Show how a dispensationalist 'fills in the blanks'.
Kyredneck, in the earlier post in which you quoted the Genesis passage that I asked you to clarify, just prior to quoting the verse, you said this:
This statement is what prompted my questions to you. That's why I am interested in who you apply the statements to. Please, I insist, you go first!
Well, circumcision was a picture of the Holy Spirit. It says Abraham was given circumcision a "seal" of the righteousness which he had being yet uncircumcised. Now, it is the Holy Spirit who seals us.
Rom 4:11 And he received the sign of circumcision, a seal of the righteousness of the faith which he had yet being uncircumcised: that he might be the father of all them that believe, though they be not circumcised; that righteousness might be imputed unto them also:
This whole passage is a picture of salvation as explained later. Abraham believed God while his body was in a state of deadness. Sarah was also described the same way.
Rom 4:18 Who against hope believed in hope, that he might become the father of many nations; according to that which was spoken, So shall thy seed be.
19 And being not weak in faith, he considered not his own body now dead, when he was about an hundred years old, neither yet the deadness of Sara's womb:
20 He staggered not at the promise of God through unbelief; but was strong in faith, giving glory to God;
21 And being fully persuaded that, what he had promised, he was able also to perform.
22 And therefore it was imputed to him for righteousness.
Notice in verse 18 it says Abraham "who against hope believed in hope". Now, if his body had already been regenerated, then why would he have to hope against hope? He would have already been enabled to have children.
And notice in verse 19 it says he was not weak in faith, and he did not consider his own body "now dead". This shows he could and did believe in a state of physical deadness. It also says the same of Sarah, and speaks of the "deadness" of her womb. So, she also believed God's promise when in a physical state of deadness, being completely impossible to bear children.
And notice in verses 20 and 21 it says he was strong in faith and gave glory to God, being persuaded (present tense) that what God had promised (past tense) he was also able to perform (future tense).
So, this whole passage is showing that we who are dead in sins can believe in Christ, and if we do will be made alive. And I know that for a certainty, because the following verses say this story was given for our example and benefit, and is speaking of spiritual life.
Rom 4:23 Now it was not written for his sake alone, that it was imputed to him;
24 But for us also, to whom it shall be imputed, if we believe on him that raised up Jesus our Lord from the dead;
25 Who was delivered for our offences, and was raised again for our justification.
If we are regenerated before faith, then why would faith be necessary? If Abraham and Sarah had already been regenerated to be physically able to have children, why would it take Abraham great faith to believe that God would perform what he promised? We don't hope for what we already have and possess.
Rom 8:24 For we are saved by hope: but hope that is seen is not hope: for what a man seeth, why doth he yet hope for?
If Abraham and Sarah were already physically quickened to be able to have children, then there would be nothing to hope or have faith for.
And if you know the story, it was many years later that Isaac was born. In fact, it seems Abraham and Sarah had periods of doubt, Sarah giving her handmaid to Abraham.
Gen 16: 1 Now Sarai Abram's wife bare him no children: and she had an handmaid, an Egyptian, whose name was Hagar.
2 And Sarai said unto Abram, Behold now, the LORD hath restrained me from bearing: I pray thee, go in unto my maid; it may be that I may obtain children by her. And Abram hearkened to the voice of Sarai.
3 And Sarai Abram's wife took Hagar her maid the Egyptian, after Abram had dwelt ten years in the land of Canaan, and gave her to her husband Abram to be his wife.
4 And he went in unto Hagar, and she conceived: and when she saw that she had conceived, her mistress was despised in her eyes.
The promise was fulfilled to Abraham many years before Sarah. He was able to conceive children with Hagar, but Sarah was not yet able.
And I have a personal theory on this. Remember that Sarah laughed when God first promised them a son?
Gen 18:11 Now Abraham and Sarah were old and well stricken in age; and it ceased to be with Sarah after the manner of women.
12 Therefore Sarah laughed within herself, saying, After I am waxed old shall I have pleasure, my lord being old also?
13 And the LORD said unto Abraham, Wherefore did Sarah laugh, saying, Shall I of a surety bear a child, which am old?
14 Is any thing too hard for the LORD? At the time appointed I will return unto thee, according to the time of life, and Sarah shall have a son.
15 Then Sarah denied, saying, I laughed not; for she was afraid. And he said, Nay; but thou didst laugh.
It took awhile for Sarah to believe. Abraham believed God's promise right away and was able to bear children with Hagar. But that was still miraculous, Abraham was very old and past the age when men can bear children. But Sarah laughed, she did not believe God at first.
I personally believe (but I could be wrong), that Sarah was encouraged by Abraham. When she saw that the Lord had fulfilled his promise to Abraham, she also believed and the Lord quickened her physical body. Still Isaac wasn't born until later in Genesis chapter 21.
Gen 21:1 And the LORD visited Sarah as he had said, and the LORD did unto Sarah as he had spoken.
2 For Sarah conceived, and bare Abraham a son in his old age, at the set time of which God had spoken to him.
Many years and many events took place before God fulfilled his promise to Abraham and Sarah. So they were not first regenerated to believe. No, they believed for many years before God gave them the ability to conceive Isaac.
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Data
I've got both the 1917 Old Scofield and the newer version as well as a bit of his original writing.
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From an Old Scofield Study Bible (1917 Edition)
Romans CHAPTER 4 (heading) – Justification by faith illustrated.
Verse 5 heading – Justifying faith defined
Verse 9 heading – Justification is apart from ordinances.
Verse 13 heading – Justification is apart from the law.
The note from verse 2 reads:
From C.I. Scofield’s “Rightly Diving The Word of Truth”
Chapter 6 – LAW AND GRACE (p52)
But now we are delivered from the law, that being dead wherein we were held; that we should serve in (1) newness of spirit, and not in the oldness of the letter.
Romans 7:6 AV 1873
Note: "(1) Cf. Rom. 2:29; 2 Cor. 3:6. “The letter” is a Paulinism for the law, as “spirit” in these passages is his word for the relationships and powers of new life in Christ Jesus. In 2 Cor. 3 a series is presented of contrasts of law with “spirit,” of the old covenant and the new. The contrast is not between two methods of interpretation, literal and spiritual, but between two methods of divine dealing: one through the law, the other through the Holy Spirit."
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Rob
I've got both the 1917 Old Scofield and the newer version as well as a bit of his original writing.
******************
From an Old Scofield Study Bible (1917 Edition)
Romans CHAPTER 4 (heading) – Justification by faith illustrated.
Verse 5 heading – Justifying faith defined
Verse 9 heading – Justification is apart from ordinances.
Verse 13 heading – Justification is apart from the law.
The note from verse 2 reads:
From C.I. Scofield’s “Rightly Diving The Word of Truth”
Chapter 6 – LAW AND GRACE (p52)
But now we are delivered from the law, that being dead wherein we were held; that we should serve in (1) newness of spirit, and not in the oldness of the letter.
Romans 7:6 AV 1873
Note: "(1) Cf. Rom. 2:29; 2 Cor. 3:6. “The letter” is a Paulinism for the law, as “spirit” in these passages is his word for the relationships and powers of new life in Christ Jesus. In 2 Cor. 3 a series is presented of contrasts of law with “spirit,” of the old covenant and the new. The contrast is not between two methods of interpretation, literal and spiritual, but between two methods of divine dealing: one through the law, the other through the Holy Spirit."
*****************
Rob
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Hello swamji, sorry for the delay (m-i-l in hospital; teenage granddaughter being a moron...).
and I will make of thee a great nation, and I will bless thee, and make thy name great; and be thou a blessing; and I will bless them that bless thee, and him that curseth thee will I curse: and in thee shall all the families of the earth be blessed. Gen 12:2,3
Swaimji, there is no question that this passage HAD it's literal, immediate, fulfillment with the nation of Israel, i.e. the physical descendants of Abraham, through God's preserving of the lineage of Christ. That is indisputable.
BUT, 'when the fulness of the time came, God sent forth his Son, born of a woman, born under the law (Gal 4:4), with Christ Himself declaring, “ The time is fulfilled, and the kingdom of God is at hand” (Mk 1:15), and God, 'making known unto us the mystery of his will, according to his good pleasure which he purposed in Him unto a dispensation of the fulness of the times, to sum up all things in Christ, the things in the heavens, and the things upon the earth; in him.' (Eph 1:9,10).
I suggest to you that since His appearing, that great nation has been (actually always has been):
........Behold, I and the children whom God hath given me. Heb 2:13
And the seed has been:
....Christ......And if ye are Christ`s, then are ye Abraham`s seed,.... Gal 3:16,29
Because:
........it is not the children of the flesh that are children of God; but the children of the promise are reckoned for a seed. Ro 9:8
Is it unthinkable to you dispensationalists that the real application of the promise of Gen 12:2,3 belongs to spirtual Israel and not physical Israel? That God has down through the ages cursed those that cursed the church of Christ and blessed those that blessed the church of Christ?
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Kyredneck, thanks for your reply. Here are the questions again and my responses:
The name of the nation is Israel.
Abraham is spoken of here. He is a blessing because through his promised son came the nation Israel, and through them came the oracles of God (the Law) and the Messiah who brings salvation to the world. As Jesus told the woman at the well, "salvation is of the Jews". Jesus was speaking of the nation of Israel when he said this, he was not speaking of the church.
Since Abraham's family became a nation, I take it that other families equals other nations. All nations are blessed because the gospel of salvation is for all people and it is for the whole world. There is no necessity for changing Israel to the church here and there is no warrant for it.
Swaimji, I agreed with all of your last post except for the above statement. There IS warrant for it. I quote Paul AGAIN:
13 For not through the law was the promise to Abraham or to his seed that he should be heir of the world, but through the righteousness of faith.
14 For if they that are of the law are heirs, faith is made void, and the promise is made of none effect: Ro 4
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Kyredneck, I think there is a basic misunderstanding.
The message of Romans 4 is that all believers of all ages are saved by faith. Dispensationalists agree.
The term “dispensation” refers to the way God directs the way believers relate to him.
Believers after Moses approached God through the law.
Believers today approach him through grace.
Psalm 119 describes how an O.T. believer looked at God’s law.
It's not burdensome and unbearable, it's his delight.
Rob
The message of Romans 4 is that all believers of all ages are saved by faith. Dispensationalists agree.
The term “dispensation” refers to the way God directs the way believers relate to him.
Believers after Moses approached God through the law.
Believers today approach him through grace.
Psalm 119 describes how an O.T. believer looked at God’s law.
It's not burdensome and unbearable, it's his delight.
Rob
Believers did not approach through the law. By the law was knowledge of sin.
Rom 3:20 Therefore by the deeds of the law there shall no flesh be justified in his sight: for by the law is the knowledge of sin.
The Jews who understood did not believe themselves saved by keeping the law. By the law all understood they were sinners. They were looking for the promised Chirst, which the sacrifices were a picture of.
Lev 16:14 And he shall take of the blood of the bullock, and sprinkle it with his finger upon the mercy seat eastward; and before the mercy seat shall he sprinkle of the blood with his finger seven times.
15 Then shall he kill the goat of the sin offering, that is for the people, and bring his blood within the vail, and do with that blood as he did with the blood of the bullock, and sprinkle it upon the mercy seat, and before the mercy seat:
16 And he shall make an atonement for the holy place, because of the uncleanness of the children of Israel, and because of their transgressions in all their sins: and so shall he do for the tabernacle of the congregation, that remaineth among them in the midst of their uncleanness.
17 And there shall be no man in the tabernacle of the congregation when he goeth in to make an atonement in the holy place, until he come out, and have made an atonement for himself, and for his household, and for all the congregation of Israel.
The high priest was to lay his hands on the sin offering and confess all his sins, and the sins of the people. Then the goat would be killed and it's blood sprinkled upon the mercy seat.
So, the Jews who understood did not believe themselves saved by keeping the laws. And they were not saved by keeping the laws, as no man could continually keep all the laws. No, they looked for the Christ who would come and give himself a sacrifice once and for all for all people for all sins.
Heb 10:1 For the law having a shadow of good things to come, and not the very image of the things, can never with those sacrifices which they offered year by year continually make the comers thereunto perfect.
2 For then would they not have ceased to be offered? because that the worshippers once purged should have had no more conscience of sins.
3 But in those sacrifices there is a remembrance again made of sins every year.
4 For it is not possible that the blood of bulls and of goats should take away sins.
5 Wherefore when he cometh into the world, he saith, Sacrifice and offering thou wouldest not, but a body hast thou prepared me:
6 In burnt offerings and sacrifices for sin thou hast had no pleasure.
7 Then said I, Lo, I come (in the volume of the book it is written of me,) to do thy will, O God.
8 Above when he said, Sacrifice and offering and burnt offerings and offering for sin thou wouldest not, neither hadst pleasure therein; which are offered by the law;
9 Then said he, Lo, I come to do thy will, O God. He taketh away the first, that he may establish the second.
10 By the which will we are sanctified through the offering of the body of Jesus Christ once for all.
11 And every priest standeth daily ministering and offering oftentimes the same sacrifices, which can never take away sins:
12 But this man, after he had offered one sacrifice for sins for ever, sat down on the right hand of God;
13 From henceforth expecting till his enemies be made his footstool.
14 For by one offering he hath perfected for ever them that are sanctified.
By the law was knowledge of sin. And keeping the sacrifices was a picture of the coming saviour who would take away sins once and for all. So, salvation was by faith, a looking to the coming saviour. This is what the sacrifices pictured.
Psa 130:1 [A Song of degrees.] Out of the depths have I cried unto thee, O LORD.
2 Lord, hear my voice: let thine ears be attentive to the voice of my supplications.
3 If thou, LORD, shouldest mark iniquities, O Lord, who shall stand?
4 But there is forgiveness with thee, that thou mayest be feared.
5 I wait for the LORD, my soul doth wait, and in his word do I hope.
6 My soul waiteth for the Lord more than they that watch for the morning: I say, more than they that watch for the morning.
7 Let Israel hope in the LORD: for with the LORD there is mercy, and with him is plenteous redemption.
8 And he shall redeem Israel from all his iniquities.
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