Romans 4:5

[MB]

An individual's soul would have to be Enabled by The Holy Spirit of God to CONSIDER the POSSIBILITY that the objection of "absolute nonsense" is absolute non-sense and that God hid these things from the wise and prudent and simply allows the wise and prudent to carry on writing man-made philosophies that never match up or fit God's Revelation to mankind that The Spirit of God Reveals unto babes.

You are being ridiculous.
MB

 

[MB]

LOL, You would marginalize the entire Bible to keep your misguided views.

Not so!, but since you suggested it this is exactly what Calvinist do. You misinterpret scripture to suit what you want to believe it says. You add to scripture what isn't there and make bogus claims about it that are not true. There is no total depravity or no inability of man. No one would be saved if this were true.
MB

 

[MB]

LOL, You would marginalize the entire Bible to keep your misguided views.

I'm sorry friend what you believe is nonsense and you are offended because I just told you this. There simply is no truth possible considering where what you believe came from. The Pope has you in his back pocket along with the Muslims.
MB

 

[Martin Marprelate]

Ephesians 2 doesn't call salvation a gift.
We see God choosing to make a dead in trespasses and sins person...alive with Christ.
We see Paul saying that we, by God's gracious favor, are saved. That this gracious salvation is through faith, and that is a gift of God so that no one can boast. It is all there in Ephesians 2:1-9. Yet, here you are arguing against scripture.
Now tell me how a dead in trespasses and sins person is made alive without God making them alive. Explain how you imagine this happens without God choosing to do the work.

Ephesians 2:1-10 is all one enormous sentence in the Greek, surrounded by a plethora of surrounding phrases and clauses. Strip them out and you get this: 'You, being dead.......... God .......made alive.'

 

[AustinC]

Not so!, but since you suggested it this is exactly what Calvinist do. You misinterpret scripture to suit what you want to believe it says. You add to scripture what isn't there and make bogus claims about it that are not true. There is no total depravity or no inability of man. No one would be saved if this were true.
MB

MB, I have provided passages in my defense rather than a sentence, out of context. You are free to hold your opinion, but your opinion is misguided and biblically weak.

No one would be saved if God did not choose to make a person alive (quicken them) with Christ. Everyone would remain dead in their trespasses and sins. The passage is clear, yet you struggle to grasp it in its clarity.

 

[MB]

MB, I have provided passages in my defense rather than a sentence, out of context. You are free to hold your opinion, but your opinion is misguided and biblically weak.

No one would be saved if God did not choose to make a person alive (quicken them) with Christ. Everyone would remain dead in their trespasses and sins. The passage is clear, yet you struggle to grasp it in its clarity.

You make me laugh, because you claim that scripture is weak. How can the Bible be biblically weak? I showed three scriptures that state that every man is dealt a measure of faith. You showed nothing. I'd say you are biblically weak.
MB

 

[AustinC]

You make me laugh, because you claim that scripture is weak. How can the Bible be biblically weak? I showed three scriptures that state that every man is dealt a measure of faith. You showed nothing. I'd say you are biblically weak.
MB

I don't claim scripture is weak. I claim your abuse of scripture to be weak. Like Satan, you quote verses out of context in an attempt to assert a falsehood.

 

[MB]

I don't claim scripture is weak. I claim your abuse of scripture to be weak. Like Satan, you quote verses out of context in an attempt to assert a falsehood.

You keep accusing me of what you yourself are guilty of.
MB

 

[Alan Gross]

You are being ridiculous.
MB

I've taken you to the place where The Deceiver is Exposed, by sounding how ridiculously all his lies are, compared to God's Truth.

You can give up what is said, here, easy. Either way. Skip it.

Not important.

,,,or,,,is it?

If it were YOU" and your 'teachings' THAT you USUALLY are fighting for, in AN ATTEMPT to 'rob' GOD'S GLORY, WAS THE RIDICULOUS, ABOVE, you could, at least, 'set aside' the POSSIBILITY to consider that they may hold more Truth than you 'thought' (=, again, get your presuppositions out of the way)

However, I am here to tell you that there is another influence behind your Extra-Biblical writings and that influence is supernatural and evil.

You don't get loosed from him much.

That is where the real, Supernatually Evil, attempt to rob the Glory of God is.

 

[Alan Gross]

Not so!, but since you suggested it this is exactly what Calvinist do. You misinterpret scripture to suit what you want to believe it says. You add to scripture what isn't there and make bogus claims about it that are not true. There is no total depravity or no inability of man. No one would be saved if this were true.
MB

This is good a statement of Total Depravity as I have seen.

 

[Van]

This is good a statement of Total Depravity as I have seen.

Calvinists use ad hominems constantly to deflect discussion for their doctrines.

Total spiritual inability cannot be true because fallen men have no excuse.

Unconditional individual election cannot be true because we are chosen on the basis of faith in the truth.

Limited Atonement cannot be true because Christ died as a ransom for all.

Irresistible grace cannot be true because the people of Matthew 23:13 were prevented from entering the kingdom.

Scripture says no one seeks God, but the Calvinist version says no one seeks God at any time. Paul used the reference to prove we are all under sin because no one seeks God all the time or when sinning.

Scripture says natural men cannot understand the things of the Spirit, bu the Calvinist version says the natural man cannot understand any of the things of the Spirit. However in the same passage, Paul speaks "as to men of flesh" clearly teaching the fallen can understand spiritual milk.

I could go on and on but you get the idea, Calvinism has been poured into scripture by misrepresenting its meaning.

 

[AustinC]

Total spiritual inability cannot be true because fallen men have no excuse.

Your comment makes no sense.
Here is my response:
Romans 9:19-20 You will say to me then, “Why does he still find fault? For who can resist his will?” But who are you, O man, to answer back to God? Will what is molded say to its molder, “Why have you made me like this?”

Van, would you agree that God has total spiritual ability and therefore when God chooses to make a person alive with Christ, God has the ability to do so?

If humans had spiritual ability to save themselves, would they need a Savior?

 

[Van]

Your comment makes no sense.
Here is my response:
Romans 9:19-20 You will say to me then, “Why does he still find fault? For who can resist his will?” But who are you, O man, to answer back to God? Will what is molded say to its molder, “Why have you made me like this?”

Van, would you agree that God has total spiritual ability and therefore when God chooses to make a person alive with Christ, God has the ability to do so?

If humans had spiritual ability to save themselves, would they need a Savior?

Why change the subject? What verse says men are without excuse? Romans 1:20 Fallen people must have limited spiritual ability to learn from what God has created such that they are without excuse. It is a lock. No need to change the subject!

And feigning ignorance does not make my presentation any less obvious.

 

[AustinC]

Why change the subject? What verse says men are without excuse? Romans 1:20 Fallen people must have limited spiritual ability to learn from what God has created such that they are without excuse. It is a lock. No need to change the subject!

And feigning ignorance does not make my presentation any less obvious.

Romans 1:20 says nothing about spiritual ability.

Romans 1:18-25 For the wrath of God is revealed from heaven against all ungodliness and unrighteousness of men, who by their unrighteousness suppress the truth. For what can be known about God is plain to them, because God has shown it to them. For his invisible attributes, namely, his eternal power and divine nature, have been clearly perceived, ever since the creation of the world, in the things that have been made. So they are without excuse. For although they knew God, they did not honor him as God or give thanks to him, but they became futile in their thinking, and their foolish hearts were darkened. Claiming to be wise, they became fools, and exchanged the glory of the immortal God for images resembling mortal man and birds and animals and creeping things. Therefore God gave them up in the lusts of their hearts to impurity, to the dishonoring of their bodies among themselves, because they exchanged the truth about God for a lie and worshiped and served the creature rather than the Creator, who is blessed forever! Amen.

You are conflating physical awareness of God's existence with spiritual ability to save oneself.
As I asked in another thread; How much corruption is required before a person needs a Savior?

Every human is corrupted and has no ability to remove that corruption. Therefore, we all need a Savior; someone who can remove our corruption.

Do you reject total inability to save yourself? What ability do you imagine you possess to save yourself, Van?

 

[Van]

Romans 1:20 says nothing about spiritual ability.

Romans 1:18-25 For the wrath of God is revealed from heaven against all ungodliness and unrighteousness of men, who by their unrighteousness suppress the truth. For what can be known about God is plain to them, because God has shown it to them. For his invisible attributes, namely, his eternal power and divine nature, have been clearly perceived, ever since the creation of the world, in the things that have been made. So they are without excuse. For although they knew God, they did not honor him as God or give thanks to him, but they became futile in their thinking, and their foolish hearts were darkened. Claiming to be wise, they became fools, and exchanged the glory of the immortal God for images resembling mortal man and birds and animals and creeping things. Therefore God gave them up in the lusts of their hearts to impurity, to the dishonoring of their bodies among themselves, because they exchanged the truth about God for a lie and worshiped and served the creature rather than the Creator, who is blessed forever! Amen.

You are conflating physical awareness of God's existence with spiritual ability to save oneself.
As I asked in another thread; How much corruption is required before a person needs a Savior?

Every human is corrupted and has no ability to remove that corruption. Therefore, we all need a Savior; someone who can remove our corruption.

Do you reject total inability to save yourself? What ability do you imagine you possess to save yourself, Van?

Folks does Romans 1:20 really say nothing about spiritual ability? It takes spiritual ability to learn about God based on what He has made. For a Calvinist to claim this is not so is to post absurdity.

Next the Calvinist equates having limited spiritual ability (able to understand spiritual milk) with the ability to save oneself. Utter nonsense posted to hide the truth. No human saves themselves, God saves us. So when a Calvinist makes that charge once again we have ad hominem fallacy being used due to contempt for the truth.

Did anyone say all humans are not corrupt? Nope - so a strawman argument to deflect from the topic.
Did anyone say any human can remove their corruption? Nope - so another strawman argument to deflect from the topic.

Did anyone say we do not need a Savior? Nope - so a strawman argument to deflect from the topic.

Did anyone (including myself) say humans have the ability to save ourselves? Nope - so on and on the Calvinist posts falsehoods

And after strewing a boat load of distortions to derail discussion, the Calvinist failed to recognize that total spiritual inability is shown to be false by Romans 1:20. Ditto for Matthew 23:13. Ditto for Romans 11:7, and on and on. In Matthew 13 Jesus speaks in parables to prevent people from hearing, understanding and being saved because the timing was not yet right. Total Spiritual Inability is not only false, it is shown to be false by a boat load of passages.

 

[AustinC]

Folks does Romans 1:20 really say nothing about spiritual ability? It takes spiritual ability to learn about God based on what He has made. For a Calvinist to claim this is not so is to post absurdity.

Next the Calvinist equates having limited spiritual ability (able to understand spiritual milk) with the ability to save oneself. Utter nonsense posted to hide the truth. No human saves themselves, God saves us. So when a Calvinist makes that charge once again we have ad hominem fallacy being used due to contempt for the truth.

Did anyone say all humans are not corrupt? Nope - so a strawman argument to deflect from the topic.
Did anyone say any human can remove their corruption? Nope - so another strawman argument to deflect from the topic.

Did anyone say we do not need a Savior? Nope - so a strawman argument to deflect from the topic.

Did anyone (including myself) say humans have the ability to save ourselves? Nope - so on and on the Calvinist posts falsehoods

And after strewing a boat load of distortions to derail discussion, the Calvinist failed to recognize that total spiritual inability is shown to be false by Romans 1:20. Ditto for Matthew 23:13. Ditto for Romans 11:7, and on and on. In Matthew 13 Jesus speaks in parables to prevent people from hearing, understanding and being saved because the timing was not yet right. Total Spiritual Inability is not only false, it is shown to be false by a boat load of passages.

So all humans are corrupt. Is that correct?
And humans have no spiritual or physical ability to save themselves. Is that correct?

Thus, the corruption of humanity is such that humans are totally incapable of redeeming themselves apart from God. This is what total depravity/total inability is saying.

Now, do you disagree with what I have stated?
If not, then you agree with total inability.
If you disagree, then show us how humans can save themselves apart from God alone.

 

[Van]

So all humans are corrupt. Is that correct?
And humans have no spiritual or physical ability to save themselves. Is that correct?

Thus, the corruption of humanity is such that humans are totally incapable of redeeming themselves apart from God. This is what total depravity/total inability is saying.

No it is not!! Ask yourselves why Calvinists run away from Calvinism in its defense. Total Spiritual Inability say the fallen cannot ever at any time seek God (proven false my Matthew 23:13), and cannot put their faith in God, proven false my Romans 4:4-5 and Romans 4:23-24.

Now, do you disagree with what I have stated?

Yes

If not, then you agree with total inability.

No,

If you disagree, then show us how humans can save themselves apart from God alone.

No one said humans can save themselves. Another strawman, another effort to change the subject and hide the truth.
And after strewing a boat load of distortions to derail discussion, the Calvinist failed to recognize that total spiritual inability is shown to be false by Romans 1:20. Ditto for Matthew 23:13. Ditto for Romans 11:7, and on and on. In Matthew 13 Jesus speaks in parables to prevent people from hearing, understanding and being saved because the timing was not yet right. Total Spiritual Inability is not only false, it is shown to be false by a boat load of passages.

 

[AustinC]

No it is not!! Ask yourselves why Calvinists run away from Calvinism in its defense. Total Spiritual Inability say the fallen cannot ever at any time seek God (proven false my Matthew 23:13), and cannot put their faith in God, proven false my Romans 4:4-5 and Romans 4:23-24.

Yes
No,
No one said humans can save themselves. Another strawman, another effort to change the subject and hide the truth.
And after strewing a boat load of distortions to derail discussion, the Calvinist failed to recognize that total spiritual inability is shown to be false by Romans 1:20. Ditto for Matthew 23:13. Ditto for Romans 11:7, and on and on. In Matthew 13 Jesus speaks in parables to prevent people from hearing, understanding and being saved because the timing was not yet right. Total Spiritual Inability is not only false, it is shown to be false by a boat load of passages.

Van, I, as a person who agrees with Total Depravity as a solid biblical truth, see that you have a poor understanding and thus you create a faux argument against something you have incorrectly defined.
I have provided my definition. If you cannot accept this definition, we will not be speaking to the same issue. We will be speaking to two different talking points.

 

[Van]

Van, I, as a person who agrees with Total Depravity as a solid biblical truth, see that you have a poor understanding and thus you create a faux argument against something you have incorrectly defined.
I have provided my definition. If you cannot accept this definition, we will not be speaking to the same issue. We will be speaking to two different talking points.

You have provided not a shred of "solid biblical truth" in support of "total spiritual inability." Saying so does not make it so.
Claiming people who differ from your view lack understanding is a feeble minded ploy.
Claiming total spiritual inability is incorrectly defined is hog wash.

“This doctrine of total inability which declares that men are dead in sin does not mean that all men are equally bad, nor that any man is as bad as he could be, nor that anyone is entirely destitute of virtue, nor that human nature is equal in itself, nor that man’s spirit in inactive, and much less does it mean that the body is dead. What is does mean is that since the fall, man rests under the curse of sin, that he is actuated by wrong principles, and that he is wholly unable to love God, or to do anything meriting salvation. His corruption is extensive, but not necessarily intensive. It is in this sense that man, since the fall, is utterly indisposed, disabled, and made opposite to all good, wholly inclined to all evil. He possesses a fixed bias of the will against God, and instinctively and willingly and turns to evil. He is an alien by birth, and a sinner by choice. The inability under which he labors is not an inability to exercise volition, but an inability to be willing to exercise holy volitions. And it is this phase of it which led Luther to declare that ‘free will’ is an empty term, whose reality is lost; and a lost liberty, according to my grammar, is no liberty at all.”

Total spiritual inability is shown to be false by Romans 1:20. Ditto for Matthew 23:13. Ditto for Romans 11:7, and on and on. In Matthew 13 Jesus speaks in parables to prevent people from hearing, understanding and being saved because the timing was not yet right. Total Spiritual Inability is not only false, it is shown to be false by a boat load of passages.

Total Spiritual Inability say the fallen cannot ever at any time seek God (proven false by Matthew 23:13), and cannot put their faith in God, proven false my Romans 4:4-5 and Romans 4:23-24.al Spiritual Inability say the fallen cannot ever at any time seek God (proven false by Matthew 23:13), and cannot put their faith in God, proven false by Romans 4:4-5 and Romans 4:23-24.

 

[AustinC]

You have provided not a shred of "solid biblical truth" in support of "total spiritual inability." Saying so does not make it so.
Claiming people who differ from your view lack understanding is a feeble minded ploy.
Claiming total spiritual inability is incorrectly defined is hog wash.


Total spiritual inability is shown to be false by Romans 1:20. Ditto for Matthew 23:13. Ditto for Romans 11:7, and on and on. In Matthew 13 Jesus speaks in parables to prevent people from hearing, understanding and being saved because the timing was not yet right. Total Spiritual Inability is not only false, it is shown to be false by a boat load of passages.

Total Spiritual Inability say the fallen cannot ever at any time seek God (proven false by Matthew 23:13), and cannot put their faith in God, proven false my Romans 4:4-5 and Romans 4:23-24.al Spiritual Inability say the fallen cannot ever at any time seek God (proven false by Matthew 23:13), and cannot put their faith in God, proven false by Romans 4:4-5 and Romans 4:23-24.

Again, your definition is inaccurate, therefore it is of no value to argue a false premise.