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Featured Romans 5:12

Discussion in 'Bible Versions & Translations' started by Van, Feb 11, 2020.

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  1. mailmandan

    mailmandan Active Member

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    Romans 5:12 (AMP) - Therefore, just as sin came into the world through one man, and death through sin, so death spread to all people [no one being able to stop it or escape its power], because they all sinned.

    Psalm 51:5 - Behold, I was brought forth in iniquity, And in sin my mother conceived me.

    Psalm 58:3 - The wicked are estranged from the womb; These who speak lies go astray from birth.
     
    #21 mailmandan, Feb 15, 2020
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  2. 37818

    37818 Well-Known Member

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    What is not understood by tradition. What caused the sinful nature, the obtaining the "knowledge of good and evil," the man Jesus obtained from two sources. His mother Mary and as His divine nature being God. Genesis 3:22. So it was true, Hebrews 4:`15, ". . . For we have not an high priest which cannot be touched with the feeling of our infirmities; but was in all points tempted like as we are, yet without sin. . . ." And Romans 8:3, ". . . God sending his own Son in the likeness of sinful flesh, . . ." And Philippians 2;7, ". . . was made in the likeness of men: . . ." So as Jesus explained to the rich young ruler who called him good, Mark 10:18, ". . .Why callest thou me good? there is none good but one, that is, God. . . ." The man Jesus was God in the flesh, John 1:9-10.
     
    #22 37818, Feb 15, 2020
  3. Van

    Van Well-Known Member
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    Hi Mailmandan, since babies not yet born have done nothing good or bad, unborn babies according to scripture have not sinned. Yet Romans 5:12 says they have sinned. My solution is to say because they were made sinners and therefore are in a separated from God sinful state, that is the meaning of "all have sinned."

    It is the range of historical meanings for the Greek word translated "sinned" that is at issue. My idea is that all have sinned could be translated all have missed, meaning all were made sinners separated from God. This puts them in a sinful state, but does not say the unborn both have done nothing bad and have done something bad, which is the problem I am trying to discuss.

    The three verses where this particular form of the word translated "sinned" appear are Romans 2:12, Romans 3:23 and Romans 5:12.
     
    #23 Van, Feb 15, 2020
    Last edited: Feb 15, 2020
  4. Yeshua1

    Yeshua1 Well-Known Member
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    Jesus was born and came in the likeness of our sinful flesh, but not the exactness as us, for we have sin natures, and his was sinless!
     
    #24 Yeshua1, Feb 15, 2020
  5. Yeshua1

    Yeshua1 Well-Known Member
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    Babies are born with fallen sin natures....
     
    #25 Yeshua1, Feb 15, 2020
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  6. Van

    Van Well-Known Member
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    Of course and the sky is blue,l but what does this have to do with the issue. Have unborn babies who have done nothing bad sinned? Why is it so hard for anyone to actually address the issue?
     
    #26 Van, Feb 15, 2020
  7. Yeshua1

    Yeshua1 Well-Known Member
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    They are born already in a sin state, do not need to do anything to be guilty before God!
     
    #27 Yeshua1, Feb 15, 2020
  8. 37818

    37818 Well-Known Member

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    They also do not need to do anything to be safe in Christ. ". . . But when Jesus saw it, he was much displeased, and said unto them, Suffer the little children to come unto me, and forbid them not: for of such is the kingdom of God. Verily I say unto you, Whosoever shall not receive the kingdom of God as a little child, he shall not enter therein. . . ." -- Mark 10:14-15. That is why, John 3:1-4, says, "There was a man of the Pharisees, named Nicodemus, a ruler of the Jews: The same came to Jesus by night, and said unto him, Rabbi, we know that thou art a teacher come from God: for no man can do these miracles that thou doest, except God be with him. Jesus answered and said unto him, Verily, verily, I say unto thee, Except a man be born again, he cannot see the kingdom of God. Nicodemus saith unto him, How can a man be born when he is old? can he enter the second time into his mother's womb, and be born? . . ."
     
    #28 37818, Feb 15, 2020
  9. Yeshua1

    Yeshua1 Well-Known Member
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    Infants are saved due to the grace of God, but not due to them being "innocent"
     
    #29 Yeshua1, Feb 15, 2020
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  10. Van

    Van Well-Known Member
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    Are in incapable of comprehension? The issue is the meaning of the word translated sinned. Please stop your incessant twaddle.
     
    #30 Van, Feb 15, 2020
  11. Van

    Van Well-Known Member
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    The word (G 264) means to "be without a share" and so because, without doing anything good or bad, we have "sinned" in that we are without a share. Thus "for all sinned" means "for all were made sinners." Thus the unborn have not done anything bad (i.e. volitionally sinned) yet are without a share (i.e. separated from God). This solves the dilemma.

    So the next question that arises is this, why do all our English Translations (or the ones I am aware of) create the dilemma?
     
    #31 Van, Aug 15, 2020
  12. Van

    Van Well-Known Member
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    The idea is that whoever without the law sinned and whoever with the law sinned. The idea that the past action was to be conceived in a sinful, separated from God, state is a little thin. But certainly Romans 5:12 points directly to that conclusion.
     
    #32 Van, Aug 15, 2020
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