Romans 7:14-25

[Moriah]

I provided Scripture for you, explained it to you, and then you come back and tell me I don't provide Scripture and my teaching is false. See how deceptive you were here. Instead of refuting the Scripture I gave you, you simply accused me of false teaching instead.

You said that I lust with my flesh. I told you that I do not sin like that anymore, nor does it tempt me anymore. You said then I do not need the full armor of the Lord. I do not agree with you saying I still sin with lusts of my flesh. I do not agree with you that I implied I do not need the full armor of the Lord. I do not agree with you using the passage about the full armor of the Lord to try to prove I still sin with lusts of my flesh.
The full armor of the Lord is not about sinning consciously by lusting with the flesh; it is about the schemes of the devil. You tried to use the scriptures about the full armor of the Lord to defend saying I sin by lusts of my flesh. If I have the full armor of the Lord on, then how in the world does that mean I am sinning? Why do you not see how the full armor of the Lord proves my beliefs and not yours? How do you falsely claim I do not need the full armor of the Lord? How do you think a person sins if they have the full armor of the Lord on?
Ephesians 6: 13 Therefore put on the full armor of God, so that when the day of evil comes, you may be able to stand your ground, and after you have done everything, to stand. 14 Stand firm then, with the belt of truth buckled around your waist, with the breastplate of righteousness in place, 15 and with your feet fitted with the readiness that comes from the gospel of peace. 16 In addition to all this, take up the shield of faith, with which you can extinguish all the flaming arrows of the evil one. 17 Take the helmet of salvation and the sword of the Spirit, which is the word of God.

The full armor of the Lord is not some heavy metal suit to wear for war, and a war you claim all Christians often lose. I have the full armor of the Lord, and I wear this and do not lose.

The other comments you made to the Scripture itself was:
You claim we war against sin and normally loose! I do not find your teaching in the Bible.
--That is why I gave you Scripture.
And again, after I quoted it, you said:
Your reasoning is ridiculous, and your argument is nonsense.
--What kind of response is this to the Word of God??

That is a response to someone who said I still sinned in ways that I do not. That is a response to someone who will not listen to the scriptures and explanations I give. You said we are not free from sin. I gave you scriptures saying we are free from sin. What do you have to say in return? Nothing. You say nothing about the truth that I have shown you, you only personally attack me.

Another example from the same post.
You originally made a statement that said, "People who have faith in something, i.e., like the Muslims, Catholics, Mormons, Jews, etc., they want to do right. Do you not know that?"
Now that is not exactly a true statement. So this is what I said in my post:

I explained to you that there are people who want to do good. I even gave you scripture for that. What do you do instead? You go on about terrorists, and other stuff that has nothing to do with the topic.

Now after all that explanation, thought, and Scripture, I get one smart-alec one-line answer:

That is just not true. I have been patiently debating you for awhile with this, but you do not listen.

--The Scripture provided made the point exactly. Unsaved people are like dogs that go right back to their vomit, to their sin. They don't do good. You dismissed as not staying on topic. What kind of debate is that?

You take what I say out of context, and only want to attack me personally. Just because you do not grasp what I am saying, that does not give you excuse to just attack me personally.

Continuing on, you had made another remark about how peoples of other religions do good. I replied once more: You obviously didn't like this, but in your response you almost admit that you don't study the Bible for yourself. See what you say:

I did not say people of other religions do good. You often make up things that I say. You say a lot of things that I do not say. You just make up stuff and say I say it, and you just make unnecessary personal attacks. You even say, “you almost admit that you don’t study the Bible for yourself.” You cannot see the ridiculousness in how you debate me?

--Perhaps my comment was a bit on the sarcastic side. But you realized here that I use many Scriptures. You don't. And you are deceived into thinking that quoting one Scripture is going to refute the totality of what the Bible says.

You sure do get sarcastic. How about if I went on about what kind of unloving, hateful Christian you are? That is exactly the nonsense I have to put up with from you.
As for my only needing one scripture.
God’s Word is powerful. I can prove false doctrine and false religion from one scripture.

No Muslim is doing good in order to get to heaven. Islam loves darkness rather than light because their deeds are evil. These are the words of Jesus that say that man, in general, loves darkness rather than light, because their deeds are evil. Is Jesus lying?

I gave you scripture that tells us there are those who want to do right. Jesus does NOT say what you say he says. Jesus does not say “man, in general, loves darkness rather than light.”

John 3:19 And this is the condemnation, that light is come into the world, and men loved darkness rather than light, because their deeds were evil.

That is not about EVERYONE.

First I never quoted from Ecclesiastes at all. The quote is from Romans 3, and from the parts that I quoted from it was fairly accurate.

I already told you that Paul is quoting from Ecclesiastes.

Romans 3:10 As it is written, There is none righteous, no, not one:
--I quoted from memory that which I needed to quote. I took nothing out of context as you allege.

There you go again making up things that I did not say. Again, I told you Paul was quoting Ecclesiastes. Ecclesiastes says there is no righteous man that never sins. Paul quotes Ecclesiastes to show the Gentiles that the Jews were sinners just like them.

--The only thing that is proven here is your ignorance of Scripture.

Why do you think you can get away with saying that to me? But when I echo back to you what you say to me, then I get reprimanded? You are not a righteous person. How do you like it if I tell you that your ignorance of scripture is proven? You go around my posts and reprimand me, all the while letting yourself and anyone else say whatever they want to me. You should be ashamed.

It is not speaking of Israel at all. It is speaking of the whole human race, no one excepted. There is none righteous, no not one.

Now, I already told you to take one thing at a time. I would love to explain all these to you, but you are all over the place in this post. One topic at a time, okay?

Context begins in verse 9:
Romans 3:9 What then? are we better than they? No, in no wise: for we have before proved both Jews and Gentiles, that they are all under sin;
--It can't get much clearer than that, can it?
Both Jews and Gentiles are all under sin. Men love darkness rather than light. Their deeds are evil. They have a depraved heart. As far as salvation is concerned they cannot do good.

You just lumped everyone together, but the scriptures do not do that. You have too much Calvinism in your beliefs. Have you ever went on your own with the Holy Spirit and studied the scriptures without the help of your religion’s leaders?

Now don't just tell me I am preaching false doctrine. You have to demonstrate it from Scripture. BTW, I am not a Calvinist.

I always use scriptures, but you always deny them. You lean hard towards Calvinism. There is some of Calvin in your beliefs.

 

[The Biblicist]

Romans 3:27 is about having faith. If a man does all the works of the law, if he gives sin offerings, then what good is it if he is not sorry for his sins? So you see, it is about faith, and not works of the law.
Where, then, is boasting? It is excluded. On what principle? On that of observing the law? No, but on that of faith.


If a person did a bunch of works in order for Jesus to save them, that would give them something to boast about concerning what they have done. Let us say, for instance, if someone had, more people circumcised than another person, than that would be something to boast about concerning being saved. However, if someone humbles him or herself and repents, then where is the boasting in that? Repenting is not a work of the law. Humbling oneself is the opposite of boasting. We are to humble ourselves when we want to be saved. That is not a work to boast about. See James 4:10.



If a person gives a sin offering, or is circumcised, or does not work on the Sabbath, does that mean he is sorry in his heart for sinning? No, it means he is following the law of works. If a person has faith, then that is telling us the condition of their heart. See Acts 15:8. God gives us His Holy Spirit when He accepts us.


I have replied to you with all biblical answers. I have shown with scripture that we do not receive the Holy Spirit unless we believe and obey.

I have shown with scripture that what the works of the law are, and humbling oneself and repenting of sin is not a work of the law.

Now, if you want to go against what I say, then do so one at a time like I did for you, and use scriptures.

Good, we have agreed on this portion of scripture. You simply said the same thing I did. Justification must be by faith without works because works are not of grace and provide boasting.

Now let's go to the next segement of my post.

 

[The Biblicist]

Good, we have agreed on this portion of scripture. You simply said the same thing I did. Justification must be by faith without works because works are not of grace and provide boasting.

Now let's go to the next segement of my post.

Justification based upon the "law" or "principle" of works promotes boasting because "works" by its very nature earns/merits favor and makes the one you are working for indebted to you and this is precisely why justification cannot be by "works" before God because it opposes the very meaning of grace (unmerited favor) and this is exactly what Paul says a few verses later when he discusses the very same issue of boasting in regard to Abraham:

2 For if Abraham were justified by works, he hath whereof to glory; but not before God.....4 Now to him that worketh is the reward not reckoned of grace, but of debt.

The same Greek word translated "glory" in Romans 4:2 is the very same word translated "boasting" in our text in Romans 3:27.

This is what Paul means by "the law" of works. The term "law" is used here to describe the manifest PRINCIPLE by which something operates. Justification based upon the PRINCIPLE "of works" promotes boasting because "works" by its very manifest NATURE places the one you are working for in your "debt" and therefore it is not of grace:

Now to him that worketh is the reward not reckoned of grace, but of debt.

So justification by the principle of "works" cannot be of grace because Paul has demanded that we are "justified freely by his grace" (Rom. 3:24) and the principle of "works" is opposed to grace in that it would MERIT justification by God and INDEBT God to justify you whether than be UNMERITED FAVOR (grace). Hence, justification cannot be according to the principle (law) of works.

Hence, the term "law" here has nothing to do with the Mosaic Law or the Law written upon the heart of Gentiles or any human law. Instead it is used here by Paul in the same sense we use the term "law" when we talk about the "law of gravity" or the principle by which gravity operates and thus what it is by nature. Paul is attempting to distinguish between Justification by "works" and justification by "faith" according to the "law" or principle that defines the very manifest CONTRASTING character of both.

So the contrast here is not between two laws, as the term "law" is used in the same sense to indicate the manifest inherent character of something or rule of how something operates. The contrast is between "works" and "faith" in regard to their manifest inherent character. Works oppose faith by their inherent manifest character - they cannot be mixed - they are opposites.

Thus "law of works" refers to any concept of justification based upon what is characteristic of "works." What would that include? It would be inclusive of any attempt to be justified by doing the works defined in the Law of Moses in regard to the Jews. Why? Because it operates by this principle/rule/law of works. It would include any attempt to be justified by doing the works to appease the law of God written upon the conscience of the Gentiles. Why? Because it operates by ths principle/rule/law of works.

28 Therefore we conclude that a man is justified by faith without the deeds of the law.

So any attempt to define justification by faith which includes anything that characterizes the principle/law of "works" is being condemned here by Paul.

5 But to him that worketh not, but believeth on him that justifieth the ungodly, his faith is counted for righteousness.
6 Even as David also describeth the blessedness of the man, unto whom God imputeth righteousness without works,

Therefore, Paul reduces justification before God down to only two opposing options. One is either justified according to the principle/rule/law of works or the principle/rule of faith. In completely repudiating every kind of justification based upon the principle of works he is saying in the clearest terms that justification before God is by FAITH ALONE as he has repudiated the only other alternative - works! Thus leaving "FAITH" ALONE as the ONLY principle/rule/law for justification before God.

 

[Moriah]

Justification based upon the "law" or "principle" of works promotes boasting because "works" by its very nature earns/merits favor and makes the one you are working for indebted to you and this is precisely why justification cannot be by "works" before God because it opposes the very meaning of grace (unmerited favor) and this is exactly what Paul says a few verses later when he discusses the very same issue of boasting in regard to Abraham:

2 For if Abraham were justified by works, he hath whereof to glory; but not before God.....4 Now to him that worketh is the reward not reckoned of grace, but of debt.

The same Greek word translated "glory" in Romans 4:2 is the very same word translated "boasting" in our text in Romans 3:27.

This is what Paul means by "the law" of works. The term "law" is used here to describe the manifest PRINCIPLE by which something operates. Justification based upon the PRINCIPLE "of works" promotes boasting because "works" by its very manifest NATURE places the one you are working for in your "debt" and therefore it is not of grace:

Again, as long as you know that believing and repenting are NOT “works of the law.”

Now to him that worketh is the reward not reckoned of grace, but of debt.

So justification by the principle of "works" cannot be of grace because Paul has demanded that we are "justified freely by his grace" (Rom. 3:24) and the principle of "works" is opposed to grace in that it would MERIT justification by God and INDEBT God to justify you whether than be UNMERITED FAVOR (grace). Hence, justification cannot be according to the principle (law) of works.


Hence, the term "law" here has nothing to do with the Mosaic Law or the Law written upon the heart of Gentiles or any human law. Instead it is used here by Paul in the same sense we use the term "law" when we talk about the "law of gravity" or the principle by which gravity operates and thus what it is by nature. Paul is attempting to distinguish between Justification by "works" and justification by "faith" according to the "law" or principle that defines the very manifest CONTRASTING character of both.

Do you agree with me, as you stated in your previous post, or not? If you agree, then why did you just post everything again?

So the contrast here is not between two laws, as the term "law" is used in the same sense to indicate the manifest inherent character of something or rule of how something operates. The contrast is between "works" and "faith" in regard to their manifest inherent character. Works oppose faith by their inherent manifest character - they cannot be mixed - they are opposites.

I gather that you agree that faith is not a work.

Thus "law of works" refers to any concept of justification based upon what is characteristic of "works." What would that include? It would be inclusive of any attempt to be justified by doing the works defined in the Law of Moses in regard to the Jews. Why? Because it operates by this principle/rule/law of works. It would include any attempt to be justified by doing the works to appease the law of God written upon the conscience of the Gentiles. Why? Because it operates by ths principle/rule/law of works.
28 Therefore we conclude that a man is justified by faith without the deeds of the law.

Without the works of the law, works of the law are things like observing special day, circumcision, etc.

So any attempt to define justification by faith which includes anything that characterizes the principle/law of "works" is being condemned here by Paul.

5 But to him that worketh not, but believeth on him that justifieth the ungodly, his faith is counted for righteousness.
6 Even as David also describeth the blessedness of the man, unto whom God imputeth righteousness without works,


Therefore, Paul reduces justification before God down to only two opposing options. One is either justified according to the principle/rule/law of works or the principle/rule of faith. In completely repudiating every kind of justification based upon the principle of works he is saying in the clearest terms that justification before God is by FAITH ALONE as he has repudiated the only other alternative - works! Thus leaving "FAITH" ALONE as the ONLY principle/rule/law for justification before God.

This is right, as long as you do not now start calling ‘believing’ a work. You are correct with this, as long as you do not start calling humbling yourself a work. You are correct, as long as you do not start calling repenting a work. You are correct, as long as you do not call repenting of cheating on your spouse a work, as long as you do not call repenting of stealing and stealing no more a work. You are correct, as long as you do not call forgiving your brother a work, and so on.

We must have Jesus’ teachings and obey them BEFORE we receive the Holy Spirit. That is what Jesus says.

 

[DHK]

I already told you that Paul is quoting from Ecclesiastes.

There you go again making up things that I did not say. Again, I told you Paul was quoting Ecclesiastes. Ecclesiastes says there is no righteous man that never sins. Paul quotes Ecclesiastes to show the Gentiles that the Jews were sinners just like them.

One thing at a time then.
YOU ARE WRONG!

I tried to show you that the quote in Romans 3:9-12 came from Psalm 14:1ff, but you would not listen nor even look at the reference given. This portion of Scripture (Rom.3:9-12 has nothing to do with Ecclesiastes. Paul is not quoting Ecclesiastes. Please consult some commentaries if you have to. You are wrong on this.

 

[Moriah]

One thing at a time then.
YOU ARE WRONG!

I tried to show you that the quote in Romans 3:9-12 came from Psalm 14:1ff, but you would not listen nor even look at the reference given. This portion of Scripture (Rom.3:9-12 has nothing to do with Ecclesiastes. Paul is not quoting Ecclesiastes. Please consult some commentaries if you have to. You are wrong on this.

You are wrong.

Romans 3:12 All have turned away, they have together become worthless; there is no one who does good, not even one."

Ecclesiastes 7:20 There is not a righteous man on earth who does what is right and never sins.

Romans 3:23 for all have sinned and fall short of the glory of God,

1 Kings 8:46 "When they sin against you--for there is no one who does not sin--and you become angry with them and give them over to the enemy, who takes them captive to his own land, far away or near;

2 Chronicles 6:36 "When they sin against you--for there is no one who does not sin--and you become angry with them and give them over to the enemy, who takes them captive to a land far away or near;

Get rid of your total depravity beliefs, accept the word of God, and maybe you can get the eye sight in your other eye.

 

[The Biblicist]

Again, as long as you know that believing and repenting are NOT “works of the law.”

yes we agree!

I gather that you agree that faith is not a work.

yes

Without the works of the law, works of the law are things like observing special day, circumcision, etc.

You are missing the point of the use of "law" in Romans 3:27-29. Justification before God is not by anything that characterizes our works! The term "works" when applied to you means ANYTHING and EVERYTHING you do or might want to do to be justified before God. Justification is based completely upon what Christ did FOR you and that is the good news of the gospel = WHAT HE DID FOR YOU. Faith merely receives what Christ did FOR you. Faith is not any active obedience you do IN ORDER TO BE justified. It is Christ's own righteousness that justifies you completely and wholly before God and faith merely RECEIVES it.

We must have Jesus’ teachings and obey them BEFORE we receive the Holy Spirit. That is what Jesus says.

Where does receiving his teachings and obeying them occur?

1. When going with and receiving the gospel?
2. Before or after being baptized?
3. Or after becoming a baptized believer?

1. 9 Go you therefore, and teach all nations,

2. baptizing them in the name of the Father, and of the Son, and of the Holy Ghost:

2. 20 Teaching them to observe all things whatever I have commanded you: and, see, I am with you always, even to the end of the world. Amen.

Where is a person saved? In 1, 2, or 3 above in the commission? Where do they received his teaching and observe his commandments in 1,2, or 3 above.


Where does salvation occur in the first application of the Great Commission in Acts 2:41-42?

1. 41 Then they that gladly received his word

2. were baptized: and

3. the same day there were added unto them about three thousand souls.
42 ¶ And they continued stedfastly in the apostles’ doctrine and fellowship, and in breaking of bread, and in prayers.

Your statement above would demand that a person is not saved or receive the Spirit of God until "3" in each of the above texts concerning the Great Commission. In other words, you are teaching by that statement that people are saved by their obedience to the commandments of Christ thus by THEIR OWN WORKS!

I believe they are saved as soon as they receive the gospel in "1" in each of the above passages. They are saved and regenerated by the Spirit of God and indwelt by the Spirit of God before they are baptized and before they are taught how to observe Christ commandments.

If not, the gospel is not the power of salvation but good works are - baptism and commandment keeping.

 

[DHK]

You are wrong.

Romans 3:12 All have turned away, they have together become worthless; there is no one who does good, not even one."

Ecclesiastes 7:20 There is not a righteous man on earth who does what is right and never sins.

Romans 3:23 for all have sinned and fall short of the glory of God,

1 Kings 8:46 "When they sin against you--for there is no one who does not sin--and you become angry with them and give them over to the enemy, who takes them captive to his own land, far away or near;

2 Chronicles 6:36 "When they sin against you--for there is no one who does not sin--and you become angry with them and give them over to the enemy, who takes them captive to a land far away or near;

Get rid of your total depravity beliefs, accept the word of God, and maybe you can get the eye sight in your other eye.

Romans 3:10 As it is written, There is none righteous, no, not one:
(Psa 14:1) To the chief Musician, A Psalm of David. The fool hath said in his heart, There is no God. They are corrupt, they have done abominable works, there is none that doeth good.

Romans 3:11 There is none that understandeth, there is none that seeketh after God.
(Psa 14:2) The LORD looked down from heaven upon the children of men, to see if there were any that did understand, and seek God.

Romans 3:12 They are all gone out of the way, they are together become unprofitable; there is none that doeth good, no, not one.
(Psa 14:3) They are all gone aside, they are all together become filthy: there is none that doeth good, no, not one.

Romans 3:13 Their throat is an open sepulchre; with their tongues they have used deceit; the poison of asps is under their lips:
(Psa 5:9) For there is no faithfulness in their mouth; their inward part is very wickedness; their throat is an open sepulchre; they flatter with their tongue.

Romans 3:14 Whose mouth is full of cursing and bitterness:
Psalms 10:7 His mouth is full of cursing and deceit and fraud: under his tongue is mischief and vanity.

Romans 3:15 Their feet are swift to shed blood:
(Pro 1:16) For their feet run to evil, and make haste to shed blood.

Is this proof enough? Paul is quoting mostly from the Psalms, with the last verse here from Proverbs. He quotes almost word from word.

He is not quoting from Ecclesiastes!

 

[Moriah]

Where does receiving his teachings and obeying them occur?

We hear the message, but obeying them can occur immediately when hearing, or after hearing, even years later.

1. When going with and receiving the gospel?
2. Before or after being baptized?
3. Or after becoming a baptized believer?

Again, receiving the Holy Spirit could be at the exact time of hearing the message that saves. It could be before a water baptism, it could be during a water baptism, or it can be years after a water baptism. It depends on the condition of the hearers mind and heart.

1. 9 Go you therefore, and teach all nations,

2. baptizing them in the name of the Father, and of the Son, and of the Holy Ghost:

2. 20 Teaching them to observe all things whatever I have commanded you: and, see, I am with you always, even to the end of the world. Amen.

Where is a person saved? In 1, 2, or 3 above in the commission? Where do they received his teaching and observe his commandments in 1,2, or 3 above.

None of your listings guarantee when a person is saved. Tell me, in your listings, did you mention WHEN the believer would believe and obey? No, you did not.

Where does salvation occur in the first application of the Great Commission in Acts 2:41-42?

1. 41 Then they that gladly received his word

2. were baptized: and

3. the same day there were added unto them about three thousand souls.
42 ¶ And they continued stedfastly in the apostles’ doctrine and fellowship, and in breaking of bread, and in prayers.

Your statement above would demand that a person is not saved or receive the Spirit of God until "3" in each of the above texts concerning the Great Commission. In other words, you are teaching by that statement that people are saved by their obedience to the commandments of Christ thus by THEIR OWN WORKS!

Not so fast, just because you do not understand something, do not jump up with things I did not say. Why do you say they would then be saved by their won works, when we had ALREADY AGREED THAT WORKS WERE NOT ABOUT BELIEVING AND REPENTING?

I believe they are saved as soon as they receive the gospel in "1" in each of the above passages. They are saved and regenerated by the Spirit of God and indwelt by the Spirit of God before they are baptized and before they are taught how to observe Christ commandments.

Do you not know what the message that saves is? Do you believe the message that saves is every single teaching one can learn about Jesus? No, but the message that saves has the power to save, because it speaks of Jesus, and confessing, and repenting. Those are the things we must do before we are saved.

If not, the gospel is not the power of salvation but good works are - baptism and commandment keeping.

What you say here does not make sense. The gospel is the power of salvation, but a person must first believe. God does NOT make us believe. NOWHERE does it say that in the Bible, NOWHERE. God does not save those who hate Him, as Calvinists teach. I gave you scripture that tells us God gives His Spirit to those who love Him, and those who OBEY ARE THOSE WHO LOVE HIM.
A person must agree in their heart with the message that saves. God who knows our heart will give us His Spirit when He accepts us. THAT IS God's Word.
The message that saves says we are sinners, if you hear that but do not believe you are a sinner, yet you believe in Jesus, then you are not ready to be saved, because we must admit we are sinners. In addition, the message that saves says you are to die to sins, but if you in your mind and heart say you are not ready to give up doing this or that sin, you are not ready to be saved. Why else do you think people are not always saved as soon as they hear about Jesus?
We must get Jesus’ teachings and obey them, and then you will receive the Holy Spirit. THAT is what Jesus says. Why do you not acknowledge that those are the words of God?

 

[Moriah]

Romans 3:10 As it is written, There is none righteous, no, not one:
(Psa 14:1) To the chief Musician, A Psalm of David. The fool hath said in his heart, There is no God. They are corrupt, they have done abominable works, there is none that doeth good.

This is about what the fool in his heart says! This is about the fool who does NOT believe there is a God. This is about all those fools who do not believe in God, NONE OF THEM ARE RIGHTEOUS.

Romans 3:11 There is none that understandeth, there is none that seeketh after God.
(Psa 14:2) The LORD looked down from heaven upon the children of men, to see if there were any that did understand, and seek God.

"All have turned aside," if they are all born totally depraved, how can they have turned aside?

What is King David saying where Paul quotes? At that time, it is a sad state of affairs inside Israel. When the day arrived, no one searched for God. Later, they repented, and searched for God. During slavery in Egypt, the Jewish people asked God, if he had forgotten them. How could they do so, if THEY were not wondering where He had disappeared? In the New Testament, when Jesus arrived, people shouted: “Son of David, have mercy on me”. They were looking for the Messiah. In the New Testament a blind man was searching for the Son of God, the prophet’s had said would come.

Romans 3:12 They are all gone out of the way, they are together become unprofitable; there is none that doeth good, no, not one.
(Psa 14:3) They are all gone aside, they are all together become filthy: there is none that doeth good, no, not one.

This is about explaining that Jews and Gentiles alike are all under sin. This is about how God’s CHOSEN PEOPLE ARE NO DIFFERENT THAN ANYONE ELSE WHEN IT COMES TO ABSTAINING FROM SIN, THAT IS WHY GOD SENT US A SAVIOR, JESUS CHRIST. WITH THE INDWELLING OF THE HOLY SPIRIT, WE CAN BE MORE THAN JUST CONQUERORS.

Is this proof enough? Paul is quoting mostly from the Psalms, with the last verse here from Proverbs. He quotes almost word from word.

I hope that you read what I told you and that you give up your false beliefs. Please consider carefully.

He is not quoting from Ecclesiastes!

You are wrong if you think that you can discount Ecclesiastes.

 

[DHK]

You are wrong if you think that you can discount Ecclesiastes.

You won't admit that you are wrong even when proven so.
The question at hand was not doctrinal. I even told you I was not a Calvinist.
The question was whether or not Romans 3:10-15 came from the Psalms or from Ecclesiastes. You insist that it came from Ecclesiastes. I have shown you that these verses have been quoted word for word from the Psalms. Yet you still say they are from Ecclesiastes.

Why are you in denial?
Why is it so hard for you to say: "I am wrong."

 

[Moriah]

You won't admit that you are wrong even when proven so.

That is you, DHK.

The question at hand was not doctrinal. I even told you I was not a Calvinist.

You believe in some of what Calvin teaches, you believe in total depravity.

The question was whether or not Romans 3:10-15 came from the Psalms or from Ecclesiastes. You insist that it came from Ecclesiastes. I have shown you that these verses have been quoted word for word from the Psalms. Yet you still say they are from Ecclesiastes.

I did NOT say it did not come from Psalms. Scripture is often quoted in other scriptures. Again, you often say I say things that I never say. You show that you do not adhere closely to what I say; however, it is understandable that you do not stay closer to what I say, for you do not stay close to the word of God. How about if I show you in a Bible that is referenced to Ecclesiastes after that scripture where Paul says that, would you then believe it more that it is also from Ecclesiastes? Ecclesiastes is not saying anything that contradicts Romans and Psalms! Why are you so upset then? You should be glad you are told the truth. A person in falseness should not get upset when told the truth, they should be glad to get rid of falseness, thus they grow in the Lord. It takes humbling yourself, and it takes a person who is not prideful.

 

[DHK]

That is you, DHK.

You believe in some of what Calvin teaches, you believe in total depravity.

I did NOT say it did not come from Psalms.

That is a lie. And you still won't admit that you are wrong. Look at your own words:

You quote incompletely the original scripture. This is from Ecclesiastes who explains that there is no righteous man who does not ever sin. This is from the Old Testament, and Paul uses it to show that Jews are no better than anyone else, that they still sin like others, even though they were God's chosen people. Now, are you now going to admit error? I have explained the truth to you, now are you going to stop preaching error?

I simply quoted Romans 3:10-12 and you tell me I am preaching error. Who does not believe the Bible here?
Not only did I simply quote from Romans, you came out and adamantly said that these verses were from Ecclesiastes, as proven above, when they were not. What are you trying to prove? And you still won't admit that you are wrong.

 

[Moriah]

That is a lie. And you still won't admit that you are wrong. Look at your own words:

I simply quoted Romans 3:10-12 and you tell me I am preaching error. Who does not believe the Bible here?
Not only did I simply quote from Romans, you came out and adamantly said that these verses were from Ecclesiastes, as proven above, when they were not. What are you trying to prove? And you still won't admit that you are wrong.

I never said it was not from Psalms also. Do not call me a liar. You said that that was against the rules! Stop using your power around here to do whatever you want.

I explained to you that Paul was quoting from Ecclesiastes. I explained to you what Paul was saying. I also explained to you that scripture is often quoted in other scriptures!
We are not totally depraved as you believe, that is not anywhere in the scriptures, that is a manufactured belief.

 

[DHK]

I never said it was not from Psalms also. Do not call me a liar. You said that that was against the rules! Stop using your power around here to do whatever you want.

I explained to you that Paul was quoting from Ecclesiastes.

Do you not read my posts?
I took each verse from Romans 3, verses 10 to 15 posted them, and then posted the corresponding verses from Psalms right underneath them, showing how the verses in Romans came almost word for word from the Book of Psalms.

Why are you still saying they come from Ecclesiastes?
Why are you calling red, blue?
Why are you saying 2+2 = 5.
Why are you avoiding the evidence that I have given you?

 

[Moriah]

Do you not read my posts?
I took each verse from Romans 3, verses 10 to 15 posted them, and then posted the corresponding verses from Psalms right underneath them, showing how the verses in Romans came almost word for word from the Book of Psalms.

Why are you still saying they come from Ecclesiastes?
Why are you calling red, blue?
Why are you saying 2+2 = 5.
Why are you avoiding the evidence that I have given you?

What do you not get? THERE CAN BE MORE THAN ONE SCRIPTURE QUOTED WITHIN A SCRIPTURE. IT IS PSALMS AND ECCLESIASTES. I JUST USED ECCLESIASTES TO HELP YOU TO UNDERSTAND MORE THAT TOTAL DEPRAVITY IS NOT WHAT PAUL WAS SAYING.

 

[DHK]

What do you not get? THERE CAN BE MORE THAN ONE SCRIPTURE QUOTED WITHIN A SCRIPTURE. IT IS PSALMS AND ECCLESIASTES. I JUST USED ECCLESIASTES TO HELP YOU TO UNDERSTAND MORE THAT TOTAL DEPRAVITY IS NOT WHAT PAUL WAS SAYING.

What Scripture is quoted from Ecclesiastes?
No Scripture is quoted from Ecclesiastes.
They are all from the Psalms, with the exception of the last one, being from Proverbs. I have already demonstrated that to you. What you have not demonstrated is that any one of those verses are from Ecclesiastes. Yet you continually assert them to be so. You are standing on a false platform, a stage without legs. Holler all you want. Your words are void and without meaning.

 

[Moriah]

What Scripture is quoted from Ecclesiastes?
No Scripture is quoted from Ecclesiastes.
They are all from the Psalms, with the exception of the last one, being from Proverbs. I have already demonstrated that to you. What you have not demonstrated is that any one of those verses are from Ecclesiastes. Yet you continually assert them to be so. You are standing on a false platform, a stage without legs. Holler all you want. Your words are void and without meaning.

You are just harassing me now. I told you I could even show you a Bible that references Ecclesiastes.

 

[DHK]

You are just harassing me now. I told you I could even show you a Bible that references Ecclesiastes.

Perhaps you should restate this again so I am sure that I am understanding you correctly.

All of our Bibles have Ecclesiastes. The book comes after Proverbs and before the Song of Solomon. So, yes you could show me "a Bible that references Ecclesiastes."

But can you show me where any of the verses in the passage, Romans 3:10-15 reference Ecclesiastes. That is what you claimed. I gave you evidence, posted it for you how that each and every verse was a quote from Psalms. But you kept insisting that Paul was quoting from Ecclesiastes. I want the evidence that he was, or an admission that you are wrong. Which will it be?

 

[Moriah]

Perhaps you should restate this again so I am sure that I am understanding you correctly.

All of our Bibles have Ecclesiastes. The book comes after Proverbs and before the Song of Solomon. So, yes you could show me "a Bible that references Ecclesiastes."

But can you show me where any of the verses in the passage, Romans 3:10-15 reference Ecclesiastes. That is what you claimed. I gave you evidence, posted it for you how that each and every verse was a quote from Psalms. But you kept insisting that Paul was quoting from Ecclesiastes. I want the evidence that he was, or an admission that you are wrong. Which will it be?

I do not have to answer to you. I did NOT say it was NOT about Psalms. I said it was about Ecclesiastes, and I used the reference to Ecclesiastes to help you understand we are not all totally depraved.

If you would like to check out a Bible that references Romans 3:12 to Ecclesiastes 7:20, then you can look at the New International Version 1984.

I will be waiting for your apology.