Romans 7:14-25

[Moriah]

Here iconoclast, tell me, do you believe that Paul, AFTER Jesus saved him did Paul have in him every kind of coveting? Did sin deceive him after Jesus saved him? After Jesus saved him, was Paul not spiritual? Was Paul a slave to sin, that he did not understand what he do, that what he wanted to do he did not do, but what he hated to do he did? After Jesus saved Paul, did good not dwell in him? Was Paul not able to carry good out, that he does not good but the evil he does not want to do he keeps on doing, that sin lives in him?

 

[The Biblicist]

If you think that you are going to convince me that Paul and all saved are not more than just conquerors, then you are sadly mistaken.

Romans 8:37 No, in all these things we are more than conquerors through him who loved us.

Romans 8:37 is in response to God's overall purpose to work all things ultimately for the good (Rom. 8:28-31) for his elect (Rom. 8:32).

This is true of Romans 7:14-25 and indwelling sin in the Believer.

Sadly, you have just confessed that no amount of Biblical evidence would influence your position! You have made up your mind regardless of the evidence. Why do you waste our time even discussing the issue then?

Now go and plainly answer the questions I gave about Paul.

I answered this question but apparently you did not read my post. Again,

1. Paul restricted the source of sin within his person to "the flesh" or "my members" or "this body of death" where the "sin" dwells - vv. 14, 17-18, 20, 24-25.

2. Paul declared that sin did not originate from His conscious self "I" and the "inward man" but this aspect of his nature were WILLING OPPOSED to sin but without will POWER to overcome sin - vv. 17,20

3. Paul declared that indwelling sin in his "flesh" "my members" "This body of death" has nothing "good" but is the epitomy of evil dwelling inside him.

Hence, in regard to "the flesh" "my members" "this body of death" where sin dwells and works as "the law of sin" there is every kind of evil present continuously.

Now, don't come back at me with an empty unsupported personal opinion - but deal with this evidence against your erroneous opinion.

 

[billwald]

Seems like many "True believers" have never learned to read.

hy·per·bo·le/hīˈpərbəlē/
Noun:
Exaggerated statements or claims not meant to be taken literally.
Synonyms:
exaggeration - hyperbola - overstatement
More info »Wikipedia - Dictionary.com - Answers.com - The Free Dictionary
Hyperbole | Define Hyperbole at Dictionary.com
dictionary.reference.com/browse/hyperbole
noun Rhetoric. 1. obvious and intentional exaggeration. 2. an extravagant statement or figure of speech not intended to be taken literally, as “to wait an eternity.” ...
hyperbole - definition of hyperbole by the Free Online Dictionary ...
www.thefreedictionary.com/hyperbole
hy·per·bo·le (h -pûr b -l ). n. A figure of speech in which exaggeration is used for emphasis or effect, as in I could sleep for a year or This book weighs a ton.
Hyperbole - Hyperboles
hyperbole - definition and examples of hyperboles - figure of speech
grammar.about.com/od/fh/g/hyperboleterm.htm
A figure of speech in which exaggeration is used for emphasis or effect; an extravagant statement.

 

[Moriah]

romans 8:37 is in response to god's overall purpose to work all things ultimately for the good (rom. 8:28-31) for his elect (rom. 8:32).

This is true of romans 7:14-25 and indwelling sin in the believer.

Sadly, you have just confessed that no amount of biblical evidence would influence your position! You have made up your mind regardless of the evidence. Why do you waste our time even discussing the issue then?



I answered this question but apparently you did not read my post. Again,

1. Paul restricted the source of sin within his person to "the flesh" or "my members" or "this body of death" where the "sin" dwells - vv. 14, 17-18, 20, 24-25.

2. Paul declared that sin did not originate from his conscious self "i" and the "inward man" but this aspect of his nature were willing opposed to sin but without will power to overcome sin - vv. 17,20

3. Paul declared that indwelling sin in his "flesh" "my members" "this body of death" has nothing "good" but is the epitomy of evil dwelling inside him.

Hence, in regard to "the flesh" "my members" "this body of death" where sin dwells and works as "the law of sin" there is every kind of evil present continuously.

Now, don't come back at me with an empty unsupported personal opinion - but deal with this evidence against your erroneous opinion.

There was not only evil in Paul after Jesus saved him, no matter how many times you want to claim that.

 

[preacher4truth]

Moriah, you win first prize for false teacher of the year in 2012. No one will surpass you, although we are so early on in 2012. "Congrats."

Paul disciplined his body and in that meaning his sinful desires, to bring them under subjection to Christ; 1 Corinthians 9:27.

So yes, he still had evil within him contrary to your false teaching.

This is not to be understood by the apostle of his natural body, and of his keeping it under by immoderate watchings, fastings, and labours, or by whipping and scourging, and lying upon the bare ground, and other such practices; but of the body of sin, the corruption of nature, and of that being laid under some restraints; of the mortifying the deeds of the body through the Spirit, of crucifying the affections with the lusts, of putting off the old man with his deeds, as concerning the former conversation, and of making no provision for the flesh, to fulfil the lusts thereof: -- John Gill

But I keep under my body - By all kinds of self denial. And bring it into subjection - To my spirit and to God. The words are strongly figurative, and signify the mortification of the body of sin, "by an allusion to the natural bodies of those who were bruised or subdued in combat. Lest by any means after having preached - The Greek word means, after having discharged the office of an herald, (still carrying on the allusion,) whose office it was to proclaim the conditions, and to display the prizes -- Wesley

I don't know why some of you spend so much time with religious folks like Moriah. He/she is a false teacher. How many times are we told to admonish one about such things?

There is a whole entire lost world out there, and nothing about the dialogue back and forth with this false teacher is edifying, nor is it going anywhere for Moriah. Moriah will be ever learning as is his or her appointment, but never coming to the acknowledgment of the truth.

Amy, Icon, The Biblicist, you have thoroughly answered in truth. Be thankful if you have none within your church to deal with as this Moriah, and count your blessings if such be the case. One as Moriah would be removed from a church for such blasphemous false teachings and excommunicated from fellowship.

 

[Heavenly Pilgrim]

P4T to Moriah: Paul disciplined his body and in that meaning his sinful desires, to bring them under subjection to Christ; 1 Corinthians 9:27.

So yes, he still had evil within him contrary to your false teaching.

HP: What might be called 'an evil desire' or a 'desire to selfishness' is not to be equated to 'having sin.' Listen once again to the words of James and the progression that takes place for sin. You confuse a temptation to sin, or a tendency to sin, with sin itself. You do just as all other Calvinists do. You fail to properly separate the sensibilities from the will itself. You fail to separate that which serves as a temptation or occasion to sin, from actually yielding the will in accordance to such influences, which when yeilded to 'becomes' actual sin.

Jas 1:13 Let no man say when he is tempted, I am tempted of God: for God cannot be tempted with evil, neither tempteth he any man:
Jas 1:14 But every man is tempted, when he is drawn away of his own lust, and enticed.
Jas 1:15 Then when lust hath conceived, it bringeth forth sin: and sin, when it is finished, bringeth forth death.
Jas 1:16 Do not err, my beloved brethren.

Notice carefully. Do not be deceived as to when sin is brought forth. Sin and temptation to sin, or having a tendency to sin, are not one in the same issues. The desires that arise from the sensibilities are not sin in and of themselves as you obviously believe, but rather temptation or desires only become sin as we formulate intents in the will of man to act in accordance to those influences.

 

[preacher4truth]

HP: What might be called 'an evil desire' or a 'desire to selfishness' is not to be equated to 'having sin.'.

Oh stop with your foolishness and false teachings yourself Mr. Runner Up to Moriah.

Your doctrine is false, as is Moriahs.

Whether innate desire to sin, or actual sin itself, it is all the presence of sin and evil. Paul himself commited sin after salvation.

"If we say that we have no sin, we deceive ourselves, and the truth is not in us.

The indictment upon you and other teachers like you under God above is clear.

Pauline doctrine itself shows you to be a false teacher concerning sin.

 

[Heavenly Pilgrim]

1Jn 2:4 He that saith, I know him, and keepeth not his commandments, is a liar, and the truth is not in him.
1Jn 2:5 But whoso keepeth his word, in him verily is the love of God perfected: hereby know we that we are in him.

And here are two verses for your careful consideration Preacher, and mine as well.:thumbsup:

 

[Heavenly Pilgrim]

P4T: "If we say that we have no sin, we deceive ourselves, and the truth is not in us.

HP: I believe that verse can be properly and justly read to say:

"If we say that we have not sinned, we deceive ourselves, and the truth is not in us."

 

[Heavenly Pilgrim]

And for even further clarification concerning sin...

1Jn 3:3 And every man that hath this hope in him purifieth himself, even as he is pure.
1Jn 3:4 Whosoever committeth sin transgresseth also the law: for sin is the transgression of the law.
1Jn 3:5 And ye know that he was manifested to take away our sins; and in him is no sin.
1Jn 3:6 Whosoever abideth in him sinneth not: whosoever sinneth hath not seen him, neither known him.
1Jn 3:7 Little children, let no man deceive you: he that doeth righteousness is righteous, even as he is righteous.
1Jn 3:8 He that committeth sin is of the devil; for the devil sinneth from the beginning. For this purpose the Son of God was manifested, that he might destroy the works of the devil.
1Jn 3:9 Whosoever is born of God doth not commit sin; for his seed remaineth in him: and he cannot sin, because he is born of God.
1Jn 3:10 In this the children of God are manifest, and the children of the devil: whosoever doeth not righteousness is not of God, neither he that loveth not his brother.

 

[Winman]

HP: What might be called 'an evil desire' or a 'desire to selfishness' is not to be equated to 'having sin.' Listen once again to the words of James and the progression that takes place for sin. You confuse a temptation to sin, or a tendency to sin, with sin itself. You do just as all other Calvinists do. You fail to properly separate the sensibilities from the will itself. You fail to separate that which serves as a temptation or occasion to sin, from actually yielding the will in accordance to such influences, which when yeilded to 'becomes' actual sin.

Jas 1:13 Let no man say when he is tempted, I am tempted of God: for God cannot be tempted with evil, neither tempteth he any man:
Jas 1:14 But every man is tempted, when he is drawn away of his own lust, and enticed.
Jas 1:15 Then when lust hath conceived, it bringeth forth sin: and sin, when it is finished, bringeth forth death.
Jas 1:16 Do not err, my beloved brethren.

Notice carefully. Do not be deceived as to when sin is brought forth. Sin and temptation to sin, or having a tendency to sin, are not one in the same issues. The desires that arise from the sensibilities are not sin in and of themselves as you obviously believe, but rather temptation or desires only become sin as we formulate intents in the will of man to act in accordance to those influences.

Correct, temptation is not sin. I have given the true life example of when I found a wallet with nearly five hundred dollars cash in it on the sidewalk once. No one was around and it occurred to me that I could take the money out and throw the wallet in the bushes. For a second or so I thought of that, I could have really used the money at that time. But I knew it was wrong and contacted the owner and returned the wallet. So, I was tempted for a moment, but that is not sin. If I would have kept the money, then that would have been sin.

 

[Heavenly Pilgrim]

Amen Winman. Having the thought in an of itself was not sin, but forming an intent to carry through with it well may have been. Having the thought was no indication of indwelling sin either. :thumbsup:

 

[Winman]

If being tempted makes us sinful, then Jesus would have been sinful, as the scriptures say he was tempted in all points as we are, yet without sin.

Heb 2:16 For verily he took not on him the nature of angels; but he took on him the seed of Abraham.
17 Wherefore in all things it behoved him to be made like unto his brethren, that he might be a merciful and faithful high priest in things pertaining to God, to make reconciliation for the sins of the people.
18 For in that he himself hath suffered being tempted, he is able to succour them that are tempted.

Jesus had the same nature as the seed of Abraham and "suffered" being tempted. He felt the pull and enticement of temptation as we do.

Heb 4:15 For we have not an high priest which cannot be touched with the feeling of our infirmities; but was in all points tempted like as we are, yet without sin.

This verse says Jesus could be "touched" with the "feeling" of our infirmities (weakness) and was tempted in "all points" as we are, yet without sin. So, having the lusts and desires that tempt us does not equate to having a sin nature, Jesus did not have a sin nature.

Mat 4:1 Then was Jesus led up of the Spirit into the wilderness to be tempted of the devil.
2 And when he had fasted forty days and forty nights, he was afterward an hungred.
3 And when the tempter came to him, he said, If thou be the Son of God, command that these stones be made bread.
4 But he answered and said, It is written, Man shall not live by bread alone, but by every word that proceedeth out of the mouth of God.

Jesus fasted for 40 days and afterward was very hungry. Folks have been known to become desperate and even commit cannibalism when they are starving like this. The devil knew exactly where to attack Jesus, he challenged him to turn a stone to bread. Why? Because he knew Jesus felt the strong pull of hunger, he could be tempted.

Having lusts and desires is not a sin nature, Eve had lusts and desires and God declared her very good.

Gen 3:6 And when the woman saw that the tree was good for food, and that it was pleasant to the eyes, and a tree to be desired to make one wise, she took of the fruit thereof, and did eat, and gave also unto her husband with her; and he did eat.

Eve had wrong desires or temptations before she sinned. But it is only when she obeyed these temptations when it violated God's law that she became a sinner.

This is the problem, folks cannot distinguish between temptation and sin. Temptation makes no one sinful, it is obeying temptation and willingly acting on it that brings sin as James 1:12-15 teaches.

Jam 1:12 Blessed is the man that endureth temptation: for when he is tried, he shall receive the crown of life, which the Lord hath promised to them that love him.

If temptation is sin, then the scriptures are saying a man is blessed to be sinful here. Absurd.

 

[Heavenly Pilgrim]

Winman, can you see why I say that so many, especially those holding to deterministic notions such as Calvinism sets forth, cannot (or will not) distinguish between the sensibilities (natural physical inclinations of the flesh) and the will itself?

 

[Iconoclast]

Here iconoclast, tell me, do you believe that Paul, AFTER Jesus saved him did Paul have in him every kind of coveting? Did sin deceive him after Jesus saved him? After Jesus saved him, was Paul not spiritual? Was Paul a slave to sin, that he did not understand what he do, that what he wanted to do he did not do, but what he hated to do he did? After Jesus saved Paul, did good not dwell in him? Was Paul not able to carry good out, that he does not good but the evil he does not want to do he keeps on doing, that sin lives in him?

Believers do not live in or practice sin.....but all believers do sin.

8If we say that we have no sin, we deceive ourselves, and the truth is not in us.

9If we confess our sins, he is faithful and just to forgive us our sins, and to cleanse us from all unrighteousness.

10If we say that we have not sinned, we make him a liar, and his word is not in us.

You are not claiming you are sinless.....are you?

Do you, Jerry, HP. and 1$bill go to the same church?

 

[Heavenly Pilgrim]

Iconoclast: Believers do not live in or practice sin.....but all believers do sin.

HP: Interesting. Tell us Iconoclast, what we are to believe when we have preachers, no less, testifying to sinning everyday in thought word and deed? How do you justify those clear testimonies with your comments here?

 

[Heavenly Pilgrim]

Iconoclast, tell us how you know "all," as believers, sin? Why don't you a word search on the simple words righteous, perfect, upright, without offense, without rebuke, holy, unreproveable, unrebukeable, without fault, without blame, without spot, godliness, dead to sins, undefiled, just for starters, and report back as to the testimony of Scripture as believers in these listed conditions in this present world.

Even yet, if there was not a believer alive that could stand and say, my heart is perfect before the Lord and without sin having all sin covered by the blood and walking daily in obedience, what would that prove? Would it prove it was not possible to live such a life with the help of the Holy Spirit? Because no one that I know of has ever climbed a certain mountain, would it prove that no one ever has or ever will?

Why would believers sit around and try to find fault with one trying to walk holy before God? Why would not you be encouraging others to walk even as He walked, just as Scripture tells us we are to walk? If you are not walking holy before God, why would you desire to drag others down to the level you might personally feel you are walking on? Is it so hard for you to imagine others walking closer to God that you are walking? Have you no desire to walk holy and pure before God? I certainly have that desire and certainly would desire all on this list to have that desire as well.

Instead of simply trying to find fault, try encouraging one another to consistent holy living for a change. :thumbs:

 

[Heavenly Pilgrim]

I came across this Second century prayer, entitled "Sanctify us o Lord", a Litergy of St. James. What might come of such a petition if everyone of us could pray, especially the last half of this prayer in honest contrition and expectation from the Lord?


God and father of our Lord and God and Savior Jesus Christ, the glorious Lord, the blessed essence, the bounteous goodness, then God in sovereign of all, who are blessed to all eternity, who sitteth upon the cherubim and art glorified by the seraphim, before whom stand thousand thousands and ten thousand times ten thousand hosts of angels and archangels: thou hast excepted the gifts, offerings, and fruits brought unto Thee as an odor of sweet spiritual smell, and hath been pleased to sanctify them, and make them perfect, O good One by the grace of thy Christ, and by the presence of Thy all-holy Spirit.

Sanctify also, our souls, and bodies and spirits, and touch our understandings, and search our consciences, and cast out from us every evil imagination, every impure feeling, every base desire, every unbecoming thought, all envy, and vanity, and hypocrisy, all lying, all deceit, every worldly affection, all covetousness, all vainglory, all indifference, all vice, all passion, all anger, all malice, all blasphemy, every motion of the flesh and spirit that is not in accordance with Thy holy will: and count us worthy, O loving Lord, with boldness, without condemnation, in a pure heart, with a contrite spirit, with unashamed face, with sanctified lips, to dare to call upon Thee, the holy God, Father in heaven. Amen.

 

[The Biblicist]

There was not only evil in Paul after Jesus saved him, no matter how many times you want to claim that.

Why do you even bother entering discussion on this text when you are obviously either incapable of discussing the facts of the text or unwilling??? You simply make ignorant and unfounded assertions as though you really think that determines what is really true or false?

I have placed the evidence before you twice and twice you have no response except unfounded assertions that have nothing to do with the text or evidence placed before. Perhaps you need to go to a forum that is less complicated and more suitable for your level of knowlege?

 

[The Biblicist]

Romans 8:37 is in response to God's overall purpose to work all things ultimately for the good (Rom. 8:28-31) for his elect (Rom. 8:32).

This is true of Romans 7:14-25 and indwelling sin in the Believer.

Sadly, you have just confessed that no amount of Biblical evidence would influence your position! You have made up your mind regardless of the evidence. Why do you waste our time even discussing the issue then?



I answered this question but apparently you did not read my post. Again,

1. Paul restricted the source of sin within his person to "the flesh" or "my members" or "this body of death" where the "sin" dwells - vv. 14, 17-18, 20, 24-25.

2. Paul declared that sin did not originate from His conscious self "I" and the "inward man" but this aspect of his nature were WILLING OPPOSED to sin but without will POWER to overcome sin - vv. 17,20

3. Paul declared that indwelling sin in his "flesh" "my members" "This body of death" has nothing "good" but is the epitomy of evil dwelling inside him.

Hence, in regard to "the flesh" "my members" "this body of death" where sin dwells and works as "the law of sin" there is every kind of evil present continuously.

Now, don't come back at me with an empty unsupported personal opinion - but deal with this evidence against your erroneous opinion.

Gentleman, I am still waiting for an intelligent and rational response to the evidence I have now placed before you?

All I have read is mere unfounded assertions and no one has yet attempted to deal directly evidence I have provided in my last two posts.

How about just changing gears and leave the ridicule out of your posts and simply deal objectively and honestly and straightforwardly with the evidences I have provide if you are able.