Romans 7, understanding Romans 7 from Ephesians chapter 2.

[Jerry Shugart]

I will say you do make a good case, but...I think you are interjecting your experiences into what Paul is saying. I do agree there is still a struggle with temptation, even for the believer. There are verses that even tell us to count it all joy to be tempted, but Romans 7 is not one of them. The man in Romans 7 is completely defeated.

Dell,

I cannot believe that he is completely defeated because of what is said here:

"O wretched man that I am! who shall deliver me from the body of this death? I thank God through Jesus Christ our Lord. So then (ara) with the mind I myself serve the law of God; but with the flesh the law of sin" (Ro.7:24-25).

How can he be completely defeated since it is by Jesus Christ that he is able to serve the law of God?

The Greek word ara means: "It intimates that, 'under these circumstances something either is so or becomes so" (Thayer's Greek English Lexicon).

Therefore Paul is saying that in some sense it is "through Jesus Christ" that enables him to "serve the law."

Let me say it this way. It is true Paul was a saved man when he wrote "O wretched man that I am! who shall deliver me from the body of this death?" But he was also saved when he wrote everything else. I did not mean to insinuate he was lost when he wrote one part and not another part. He was indeed saved when he wrote "O wretched man that I am!", but he was giving a rear view sight of his life or at least a view of any sinner trying to gain salvation through works, which we know does not save.

I cannot believe that Paul was giving us a "rear view sight" of his experiences before he was saved because he uses the "present" tense throughout the passage:

"I thank God through Jesus Christ our Lord. So then with the mind I myself serve the law of God; but with the flesh the law of sin" (Ro.7:24-25).

The Greek word translated "I thank" and the Greek word translated "serve" are in the 'present" tense and therefore Paul is not giving us a "rear view sight" oh his experiences.

 

[Romans7man]

With that in mind let us look at the words which follow:

"O wretched man that I am! who shall deliver me from the body of this death? I thank God through Jesus Christ our Lord. So then (ara) with the mind I myself serve the law of God; but with the flesh the law of sin" (Ro.7:24-25).

The Greek word ara means: "It intimates that, 'under these circumstances something either is so or becomes so" (Thayer's Greek English Lexicon).

Therefore Paul is saying that in some sense it is "through Jesus Christ" that enables him to "serve the law."

Therefore since Paul speaks of serving the law "with his mind" he is speaking of his experiences after being saved. And verses earlier in the chapter also speak of "the law of his mind" so this verse must also be in regard to his experiences while he was saved:

"But I see another law in my members, warring against the law of my mind, and bringing me into captivity to the law of sin which is in my members" (Ro.7:23).

With that in mind the two preceding verses must also be speaking about Paul when he was already saved:

"I find then a law, that, when I would do good, evil is present with me. For I delight in the law of God after the inward man:" (Ro.7:21-22).

So I see nothing that even hints that these verses are speaking of someone who is not yet saved.

This is post 28.

Delighting in the law of God is not a mark of being saved. Doing good works will not save. This is where the Jews were without Christ.
Paul was constantly dealing with the Jews about the law. That is what got him in so much trouble with them. If he had been teaching, We must keep the law in order to obtain salvation, There would not have been any problem.
Something else that was causing contention was he told them they were not keeping the law either. I think him pointing that out to them convicted them and they didn't like it. Even Jesus told those that were without sin to cast the first stone, and it brought conviction. They knew in their heart they were not truly keeping the law. This is where the man is in chapter 7, I believe he is just hoping his good will outweigh his bad.

"But I see another law in my members, warring against the law of my mind, and bringing me into captivity to the law of sin which is in my members" (Ro.7:23).

To be a captive of sin is to be lost. The desires of his flesh is stronger than his better understanding of his mind to do the right thing. His will is working just fine, but something is stronger than his will to do right, it is sin in the flesh.

 

[Romans7man]

HP: Jerry you are addressing a portion of the text where Paul is looking in retrospect in the first part of that verse to what he now views as a wretched state of man. He is reflecting upon the state of a lost man that understands what he should do but has no power to do it. He asked the question who can deliver him from the body of this death? He interjects the notion that victory through Jesus Christ the Lord is the way to victory, and then returns directly back to the state of a lost man who he was addressing primarily up until that point.

The words 'so then" I believe are words directing our attention back to the original problem as to the life of an unbeliever under condemnation and is not saying that what he mentions following is the practical life of one that has found victory over sin. He interjects in the middle of this verse that he clearly knows who can deliver man from that state, but that is no certain indication that everything said following is describing the state of one who has gained that victory. If what you are indicating, by how I am understanding you, is true, how do you rectify that position with the victory over sin and being made 'free from sin, particularly in chapters 6 & 8? Serving the law of God with the mind but serving the law of sin in the flesh (an indication of the actual deeds done in the flesh) is no indication of victory over sin, would you think?

One could be preaching about the sinfulness of sin and interject into his thoughts being portrayed the cure for sin, and then return to the former topic being addressed of the sinfulness of man could he not? Could not one inject a "Praise the Lord we know where the victory is found!" and immediately return to the context of a lost man under conviction just discussed? Because one says "so then" it in no way insinuates that everything that follows is addressing the cure to sin just mentioned or one in a state of salvation that should be experience the freedom from sin of chapter 6.

If the latter portion of Romans 7: 24-25 is addressing the life of Paul as a believer in reality, he was indeed a most confused writer. How could one possibly understand the freedom from sin in chapter 6 to correlate with the obvious competing notions of the last portion of Chapter seven verse 25, or the very first portion of chapter 8? Would not that be paramount to suggesting that the normal life of the believer's actions are at and direct antipodes to the faith they profess to hold, that is freedom from sin found in Chapters 6&8? What practical good is Christianity or the life of a Christian if in fact there is no freedom from sin 'in the flesh,' or if a Christian is still under bondage to follow the law of sin in the flesh?

Jerry I wouldn't for a minute believe that that verse in Romans seven actually depicts his experience as a believer being made free from sin, and yet only serving God in his mind and not in the actions carried out by the flesh. The two are competing and contrary notions. That might represent the state of a backslider under conviction and self deception, but not one in a right standing before God.

That being said, I am open for new light. If I misinterpreted you, forgive me and explain how I did.

Look at the first verse immediately following the verses the last verses of chapter 7. "There is therefore now no condemnation to them which are in Christ Jesus who walk not after the flesh but after the Spirit." How can one be 'in Christ Jesus' and be serving the law of sin in the flesh? Again were up against a stark contradiction between verses 24 and 25 of chapter 7, and the first verse of chapter 8, if we are to interpret verse 25 of chapter 7 as being Paul's experience as a believer.

Verse 2 in chapter 8. "For the law of the Spirit of life in Christ Jesus hath "made me free from" the law of sin and death." Here again if the walk of a believer is described in verse 25 of chapter 7, serving the law of sin in the flesh, where is the freedom from the law of sin and death that Paul describes here in verse two of chapter 8?

This is well said. I don't know if I can say it any better.:thumbsup::thumbsup::thumbsup:

 

[Heavenly Pilgrim]

Jerry: When we look at the context we can see that those who are addressed by the pronoun "ye" in the verse in question also are said to have received have received the Spirit of adoption:

"For if ye live after the flesh, ye shall die: but if ye through the Spirit do mortify the deeds of the body, ye shall live. For as many as are led by the Spirit of God, they are the sons of God. For ye have not received the spirit of bondage again to fear; but ye have received the Spirit of adoption, whereby we cry, Abba, Father" (Ro.8:13-15).

HP: Do not forget the qualifier "IF." It does not suggest that such shall be the case, or should be the case, or will be the case. It does not suggest or state that any that shall see death will be classified as believers on that day when they shall die. Paul is giving two scenarios, one of life and one of death, regardless of what might call themselves at another given point. It is much like, do this and ye shall die. Do this and ye shall live. Paul sets before them life and death. He is admonishing them to do what will lead to life to the end, that they be found in Christ in the last day.

You cannot address any of the verses you mention without not clearly involving ones position on eternal security or OSAS. These issues are not separate and distinct as you seem to make them. One position suggests the stance on yet another position. Take a stand on one and it clearly has implications on the other.

Jerry: There can be no doubt that "believers" are in view here since it is only believers who have "received the Spirit of adoption."

HP: Yes and they wil still be found as believers and still be able to cry Aba Father IF they through the Spirit do mortify the deeds of the body. If they, as believers, choose to live according to the flesh, they will indeed die. Calling on God as their Father, living a life to the flesh, will do them no good in the end. They shall die.

Jerry: Are you still of the mind that Paul's words at Romans 8:13 are speaking of the unsaved?

HP: Paul addressed them as believers, but it is not over till it is over. Even yet, it is not uncommon to address a crowd as believers knowing full well that some are deceived as to their standing before God. Such admonition might well get them on the right path. Preachers do it every day. That is why Paul is warning them to stay faithful and walk after the Spirit and NOT after the flesh lest their profession be null and void in the end or they go through life simply deceived as to their final estate.

 

[Jerry Shugart]

Do not forget the qualifier "IF." It does not suggest that such shall be the case, or should be the case, or will be the case.

The following is a Greek "first class conditional" phrase:

"For if ye live after the flesh, ye shall die..."

"The first class condition indicates the assumption of truth for the sake of argument. The normal idea, then, is if--and let us assume that this is true for the sake of argument--then...." (Daniel Wallace, Greek Grammar Beyond the Basics, p. 690).

By using this first class conditional phrase Paul is indicating that the Christian can indeed live after the flesh and die:

"If you live after the flesh (and I am assuming that you do) then you shall die."

If it was not possible for a Christian to live after the flesh Paul certainly would not use language where he "assumes" that they can.

You cannot address any of the verses you mention without not clearly involving ones position on eternal security or OSAS.

I have already explained what this "dying" is in regard to in our "walk" and it has nothing to do with eternal security (more on that later in this post).

I also said:

There can be no doubt that "believers" are in view here since it is only believers who have "received the Spirit of adoption."

To which you replied:

Yes and they wil stil be found as beleivers and still be able to cry Aba Father IF they through the Spirit do mortify the deeds of the body. If they, as beleivers, choose to live according to the flesh, they will indeed die.

The dying which is spoken of can only be understood by the "context":

"But if the Spirit of him that raised up Jesus from the dead dwell in you, he that raised up Christ from the dead shall also quicken your mortal bodies by his Spirit that dwelleth in you. Therefore, brethren, we are debtors, not to the flesh, to live after the flesh. For if ye live after the flesh, ye shall die: but if ye through the Spirit do mortify the deeds of the body, ye shall live" (Ro.8:11-13).

From this we can understand that the "living" (quicken) is in regard to a life in our mortal bodies. And that life is spoken of here:

"Always bearing about in the body the dying of the Lord Jesus, that the life also of Jesus might be made manifest in our body. For we which live are always delivered unto death for Jesus' sake, that the life also of Jesus might be made manifest in our mortal flesh" (2 Cor.4:10-11).

When we are walking in the Spirit then we are putting to death the deeds of the body and then the life of Jesus will be manifest in our mortal flesh. But if we begin to walk after the flesh that life will die.

Paul addressed them as believers, but it is not over till it is over.

A person who has believed the truth of the gospel with all his heart will always believe its truth, as witnessed by what John says here:

"The elder unto the elect lady and her children, whom I love in the truth; and not I only, but also all they that have known the truth; For the truth's sake, which dwelleth in us, and shall be with us for ever" (2 Jn.1-2).

 

[Heavenly Pilgrim]

Jerry: By using this first class conditional phrase Paul is indicating that the Christian can indeed live after the flesh and die:

"If you live after the flesh (and I am assuming that you do) then you shall die."

If it was not possible for a Christian to live after the flesh Paul certainly would not use language where he "assumes" that they can.

HP: In reality nothing meaningful can be concluded from what you said above. One addressed as a Christian could be in fact merely deceived as to is standing, or one could be living in accordance to God's laws and according to the Spirit and as such be in a right relationship with God at that moment, and yet still in the end be found lost and undone. There is simply nothing in this verse that would really indicate one way or the other. So what does it matter if you say the verse proves that it is possible for a Christian to live after the flesh? You simply beg the question as to one's final standing before the Lord and if in the end he will be judged as the Christian he might have once been or thought he had been. So again I ask you Jerry, what have you really established by this point you have made and have re-iterated several times? It does not matter what one thinks one standing is, or what one standing has been in the past, but rather the only thing that matters is what is your standing now and what will it be in the last day as we all stand before God to give an account of the deeds done in the flesh. Will one be judged by God as a believer at the final judgment? If one lives after the flesh the Scripture says in the end they shall die.

 

[Heavenly Pilgrim]

"But if the Spirit of him that raised up Jesus from the dead dwell in you, he that raised up Christ from the dead shall also quicken your mortal bodies by his Spirit that dwelleth in you. Therefore, brethren, we are debtors, not to the flesh, to live after the flesh. For if ye live after the flesh, ye shall die: but if ye through the Spirit do mortify the deeds of the body, ye shall live" (Ro.8:11-13).

From this we can understand that the "living" (quicken) is in regard to a life in our mortal bodies. And that life is spoken of here:

HP: I disagree. We all know we are all going to die one way or the other Jerry. The same applies for the words 'ye shall live.' Are you going to be consistent here and say that ye shall live speaks only of the mortal flesh? We know that regardless of how we live in this life were going to die physically, and even sinners 'live' in the physical realm.

No Jerry, the death that is spoken of is not merely physical death but is speaking of separation from God eternally, just as the life spoken of is not merely physical life but it is life eternal if we walk not after the flesh but after the Spirit.

Jerry: "Always bearing about in the body the dying of the Lord Jesus, that the life also of Jesus might be made manifest in our body. For we which live are always delivered unto death for Jesus' sake, that the life also of Jesus might be made manifest in our mortal flesh" (2 Cor.4:10-11).

When we are walking in the Spirit then we are putting to death the deeds of the body and then the life of Jesus will be manifest in our mortal flesh. But if we begin to walk after the flesh that life will die.

HP: And may I add that when we die the death spoken of we will be separated from God eternally. That is a spiritual death spoken of. It may not take place at the very time the sin is committed but if persisted in to the and apart from repentance Jesus said "unless he repent ye shall all likewise perish." When a believer sins at first he might not feel any separation from God. But the further he walks away and continues on that path apart from repentance, the further will become his separation from God. In the end if one is to die in that state there can only be one hope spiritual death for eternity.

One can clearly be deceived as far as his standing in this world goes. Deception involves thinking one is someone who he is not. One can believe he's a believer. One can believe he is in right standing with God. One can believe it's all well with their soul. One can be doing many good works in the name of the Lord to the point of casting out demons, yet in the end those words may well be spoken to him or her, "depart from me ye workers of iniquity I never knew you." All but they thought they were believers they stood in front of a holy and they just God and argued their case against God. Can you imagine? Standing before a Holy and Just God trying to convince God of their standing before him all week to hear those words depart from me ye workers of iniquity I never knew you. They might have looked like believers in some ways in this world, they might have said the right things at times, and obviously convince themselves that they were right with God, but all for not. Could it be possible that some of those deceived individuals misinterpreted Romans and thought that a believer could be right with God positionally yet at the same time live a life contrary to the Spirit of God? Jerry, I don't only think it's a possibility, but rather a high probability. We know they thought they were believers we know that they were trying to do good works in the name of Christ. That sure doesn't sound like a common ordinary sinner to me. Deception is real Jerry. Even Paul could have been deceived as to the standing of those he was speaking to at the time he spoke those words. But Paul was not and will not be their judge. He could only go by what he sees outwardly and admonished them to live lives pleasing to the Lord. He was a human, not Divine.

My question to you and myself is, are we walking after the Spirit? Are we absolutely certain that we're not walking after the flesh? If we are not, are we willing to risk our own souls, over a simple matter such as, does the word "die" only speak of death to the "flesh?" Lets not play spiritual Russian roulette over the meaning of words such as "die." Our soul is worth far more than we can ever imagine. Let's purpose in our hearts, no word games. Let us always ask ourselves this question. What if I'm wrong? What if the word 'die' did in fact speak to spiritual death? What happens if in the end we find it just was limited to physical death? If we walking in the Spirit, not minding the flesh, it would not matter. But on the other hand if in fact Paul was speaking of spiritual death, and we somehow became careless in our lives and allowed sin to come in along with its deception, what then? Sin is deception you know. Would one wake up to the truth before it's too late?

Let's take no chances. Let us walk after the Spirit and not after the flesh and we shall not die. NOTICE CAREFULLY: I had to be speaking of the spiritual realm when I said the word 'die,' for again we both know without a doubt apart from the rapture we will die in the physical, but we do not have to die in the spiritual.

 

[Heavenly Pilgrim]

Rev 22:12 And, behold, I come quickly; and my reward is with me, to give every man according as his work shall be.
Rev 22:13 I am Alpha and Omega, the beginning and the end, the first and the last.
Rev 22:14 Blessed are they that do his commandments, that they may have right to the tree of life, and may enter in through the gates into the city.

 

[Jerry Shugart]

In reality nothing meaningful can be concluded from what you said above. One addressed as a Christian could be in fact merely deceived as to is standing, or one could be living in accordance to God's laws and according to the Spirit and as such be in a right relationship with God at that moment, and yet still in the end be found lost and undone. There is simply nothing in this verse that would really indicate one way or the other.

Yes, it does indicate that the passage is speaking of those who are actually saved. The words cannot possibly be in regard to anyone who really is not saved. That is because this phrase is also "first class conditional":

"...but if ye through the Spirit do mortify the deeds of the body, ye shall live."

Again, "The first class condition indicates the assumption of truth for the sake of argument. The normal idea, then, is if--and let us assume that this is true for the sake of argument--then...." (Daniel Wallace, Greek Grammar Beyond the Basics, p. 690).

By using this first class conditional phrase Paul is indicating that those being spoken to can indeed mortify the deeds of the flesh through the Spirit:

"If you through the Spirit mortify the deeds of the flesh (and I am assuming that you do) then you shall live."

It is only Christians who can through the Spirit mortify the deeds of the flesh so that phrase can only be in regard to those who are already saved. Therefore the following verse is in regard the saved:

"For if ye live after the flesh, ye shall die: but if ye through the Spirit do mortify the deeds of the body, ye shall live. For as many as are led by the Spirit of God, they are the sons of God. For ye have not received the spirit of bondage again to fear; but ye have received the Spirit of adoption, whereby we cry, Abba, Father" (Ro.8:13-15).

Also, there can be no doubt that "believers" are in view here since it is only believers who have "received the Spirit of adoption."

So what does it matter if you say the verse proves that it is possible for a Christian to live after the flesh?

It matters if we are going to understand if Romans 7 is in regard to the saved or the unsaved man, the subject of this thread. Here is your argument again:

Look at the first verse immediately following the verses the last verses of chapter 7. "There is therefore now no condemnation to them which are in Christ Jesus who walk not after the flesh but after the Spirit." How can one be 'in Christ Jesus' and be serving the law of sin in the flesh?

Again, the following verse is speaking of those already saved, and therefore a person can be in Christ and still serve the law of sin in the flesh:


"For if ye live after the flesh, ye shall die: but if ye through the Spirit do mortify the deeds of the body, ye shall live. For as many as are led by the Spirit of God, they are the sons of God. For ye have not received the spirit of bondage again to fear; but ye have received the Spirit of adoption, whereby we cry, Abba, Father" (Ro.8:13-15).

So again I ask you Jerry, what have you really established by this point you have made and have re-iterated several times?

I have established that the verses in the last part of the seventh chapter of the epistle to the Romans has the saved in view and not the unsaved.
Isn't that the subject of this thread?

 

[Heavenly Pilgrim]

Thanks for the replies Jerry. We will just have to disagree on this point. There are still enough issues found in Romans to keep us going for a few thousand years anyway.

I sincerely appreciate so much of what you have to offer. If some were wringing their hands in anticipation to see if we could devour each other over the word 'die' in Romans, they will have to wait for a long time. :thumbs:

 

[Romans7man]

The dying which is spoken of can only be understood by the "context":

"But if the Spirit of him that raised up Jesus from the dead dwell in you, he that raised up Christ from the dead shall also quicken your mortal bodies by his Spirit that dwelleth in you. Therefore, brethren, we are debtors, not to the flesh, to live after the flesh. For if ye live after the flesh, ye shall die: but if ye through the Spirit do mortify the deeds of the body, ye shall live" (Ro.8:11-13).

From this we can understand that the "living" (quicken) is in regard to a life in our mortal bodies. And that life is spoken of here:

"Always bearing about in the body the dying of the Lord Jesus, that the life also of Jesus might be made manifest in our body. For we which live are always delivered unto death for Jesus' sake, that the life also of Jesus might be made manifest in our mortal flesh" (2 Cor.4:10-11).

When we are walking in the Spirit then we are putting to death the deeds of the body and then the life of Jesus will be manifest in our mortal flesh. But if we begin to walk after the flesh that life will die.

A person who has believed the truth of the gospel with all his heart will always believe its truth, as witnessed by what John says here:

"The elder unto the elect lady and her children, whom I love in the truth; and not I only, but also all they that have known the truth; For the truth's sake, which dwelleth in us, and shall be with us for ever" (2 Jn.1-2).

This dying spoken of in 2 Cor 4:10-11 is not the mortifying of the flesh spoken of in Romans. The context of 2 Cor 4 is how Paul and others are getting the gospel out and how it is taking a toll on their bodies. In the previous verses he goes into detail of how he is persecuted and such.

In 2 Cor. 4:12 he says, "So then death worketh in us, but life in you." Paul is simply speaking of how hard it is on him, but the benefit to that is they may not have to go through what he does. This is in line with Philippians 3. Phil. 3:1 says,.....for you it is safe. Then he warns them of the dangers.

This idea of dying to self or crucifying the flesh is what people like Watchman Nee and others taught. It is a false teaching.
They also will use the words of Christ when he said to take up your cross daily. They use it in the sense of dying to self, whereas Christ meant it as to be prepared to die every day for His sake. That would be prepared to be crucified just as He was. DEAD!

 

[Jerry Shugart]

This dying spoken of in 2 Cor 4:10-11 is not the mortifying of the flesh spoken of in Romans.

Let us look at the "context" of the verse in question from the epistle to the Romans:

"And if the Spirit of him who raised Jesus from the dead is living in you, he who raised Christ from the dead will also give life to your mortal bodies through his Spirit, who lives in you. Therefore, brothers, we have an obligation—but it is not to the sinful nature, to live according to it. For if you live according to the sinful nature, you will die; but if by the Spirit you put to death the misdeeds of the body, you will live" (Ro.8:11-13).

Here Paul says that the Christian will be given life to his "mortal body through the Spirit. And the words "you will live" in verse 13 are referring to this same life.

The reference to the "mortal life" being given life is not speaking of actually receiving "physical" life because those who received this epistle were already alive physically. It cannot be speaking of eternal life because that salvation is directly tied to one's soul (1 Pet.1:9).

The following verse tells us exactly how a Christian's "mortal body" is made "alive" by the Spirit:

"And we, who with unveiled faces all reflect the Lord's glory, are being transformed into his likeness with ever-increasing glory, which comes from the Lord, who is the Spirit" (2 Cor.3:18).

When we walk according to the Spirit we are transformed into the likeness of the Lord Jesus by the Spirit. That is how life is given to our mortal bodies and this passage describes that "life":

"Always bearing about in the body the dying of the Lord Jesus, that the life also of Jesus might be made manifest in our body. For we which live are always delivered unto death for Jesus' sake, that the life also of Jesus might be made manifest in our mortal flesh" (2 Cor.4:10-11).

When a Christian ceases from walking after the Spirit and begins to walk according to the flesh then that life of Jesus which was manifested in our mortal body will die because it will be defiled by sin. So the "death" spoken of here is not speaking of losing one's salvation:

"Therefore, brothers, we have an obligation—but it is not to the sinful nature, to live according to it. For if you live according to the sinful nature, you will die;but if by the Spirit you put to death the misdeeds of the body, you will live" (Ro.8:11-13).

The context of 2 Cor 4 is how Paul and others are getting the gospel out and how it is taking a toll on their bodies. In the previous verses he goes into detail of how he is persecuted and such.

In 2 Cor. 4:12 he says, "So then death worketh in us, but life in you." Paul is simply speaking of how hard it is on him, but the benefit to that is they may not have to go through what he does.

Paul believed that his own sufferings were a means through which God could minister to these people. Christ had brought life to others through His suffering and death and Paul's sufferings was also a means which brought spiritual life to these Corinthians.