Romans 8:1-4 2 views

[Deacon]

Interesting variant in the Byzantine tradition...

Romans 8:1 (AV 1873)
There is therefore now no condemnation to them which are in Christ Jesus who walk not after the flesh, but after the Spirit.

~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~

WH NU end verse at Χριστῷ Ἰησοῦ (“Christ Jesus”)
Manuscripts: א‎* B C D* (F G with space for addition) 1739 itb,* cop

Versions: nkjvmg rsv nrsv esv nasb niv tniv neb reb njb nab nlt hcsb net


variant 1 add μη κατα σαρκα περιπατουσιν
“not walking according to the flesh”
Manuscripts: A D1 Ψ syr

Versions: none


variant 2/TR add μη κατα σαρκα περιπατουσιν αλλα κατα πνευμα
“not walking according to the flesh, but according to Spirit”
Manuscripts: א‎2 D2 33vid Maj syr

Versions: kjv nkjv esvmg nivmg hcsbmg netmg​

Rob

 

[MrW]

Don't you see? Paul and James are 'singing from the same songbook' here:

13 for not the hearers of the law are just before God, but the doers of the law shall be justified: Ro 2

22 But be ye doers of the word, and not hearers only, deluding your own selves. Ja 2
24 Ye see that by works a man is justified, and not only by faith. Ja 2

V.24. Justified in the eyes of MEN. Man looks on the outward appearance. Vindication before MEN.

Therefore, by the days of the law, no flesh shall be justified.

 

[kyredneck]

V.24. Justified in the eyes of MEN.

Wrong. The works that James was talking about in his epistle:

27 Pure religion and undefiled before our God and Father is this, to visit the fatherless and widows in their affliction, and to keep oneself unspotted from the world. Ja 1
15 If a brother or sister be naked and in lack of daily food,
16 and one of you say unto them, Go in peace, be ye warmed and filled; and yet ye give them not the things needful to the body; what doth it profit? Ja 2

...are the same works we're all going to be judged by.

The just:

34 Then shall the King say unto them on his right hand, Come, ye blessed of my Father, inherit the kingdom prepared for you from the foundation of the world:
35 for I was hungry, and ye gave me to eat; I was thirsty, and ye gave me drink; I was a stranger, and ye took me in;
36 naked, and ye clothed me; I was sick, and ye visited me; I was in prison, and ye came unto me.

The unjust:

41 Then shall he say also unto them on the left hand, Depart from me, ye cursed, into the eternal fire which is prepared for the devil and his angels:
42 for I was hungry, and ye did not give me to eat; I was thirsty, and ye gave me no drink;
43 I was a stranger, and ye took me not in; naked, and ye clothed me not; sick, and in prison, and ye visited me not. Mt 25

Ye see that by works a man is justified, and not only by faith."

This justification is BEFORE CHRIST, NOT MEN.

 

[MrW]

Wrong. The works that James was talking about in his epistle:

27 Pure religion and undefiled before our God and Father is this, to visit the fatherless and widows in their affliction, and to keep oneself unspotted from the world. Ja 1
15 If a brother or sister be naked and in lack of daily food,
16 and one of you say unto them, Go in peace, be ye warmed and filled; and yet ye give them not the things needful to the body; what doth it profit? Ja 2

...are the same works we're all going to be judged by.

The just:

34 Then shall the King say unto them on his right hand, Come, ye blessed of my Father, inherit the kingdom prepared for you from the foundation of the world:
35 for I was hungry, and ye gave me to eat; I was thirsty, and ye gave me drink; I was a stranger, and ye took me in;
36 naked, and ye clothed me; I was sick, and ye visited me; I was in prison, and ye came unto me.

The unjust:

41 Then shall he say also unto them on the left hand, Depart from me, ye cursed, into the eternal fire which is prepared for the devil and his angels:
42 for I was hungry, and ye did not give me to eat; I was thirsty, and ye gave me no drink;
43 I was a stranger, and ye took me not in; naked, and ye clothed me not; sick, and in prison, and ye visited me not. Mt 25

Ye see that by works a man is justified, and not only by faith."

This justification is BEFORE CHRIST, NOT MEN.

I am justified before God (saved) by grace only, through faith only, in Christ only. That being true in me, THEN Ephesians 2:10 applies to me.

Third, yes, we Christians will be judged for what we do during our lives, for rewards and loss of rewards, NOT for salvation (justification). I was judged for that, IN Christ, at His cross.

 

[DaveXR650]

Ye see that by works a man is justified, and not only by faith."

If you look at that, and then you go to Romans 3:20 and 21 you have something that needs to be resolved. Either the justification talked about in James is before men and a public vindication of a life well lived, or else James is talking about a type of faith that is false, and therefore the person was never made a new person who tries to do good works. In other words, James was saying "can that type of faith" save him.

Ky, that would be a good time to break out a couple of commentaries and see what others think. Or do like Luther and just throw James out!

 

[kyredneck]

Or do like Luther and just throw James out!

While you're at just take a black magic marker and strike through all the other passages of scripture you don't like.

James is singing from the same song book as Paul:

13 for not the hearers of the law are just before God, but the doers of the law shall be justified: Ro 2

22 But be ye doers of the word, and not hearers only, deluding your own selves. Ja 2
24 Ye see that by works a man is justified, and not only by faith. Ja 2

 

[kyredneck]

I am justified before God (saved) by grace only, through faith only, in Christ only. That being true in me, THEN Ephesians 2:10 applies to me.

Third, yes, we Christians will be judged for what we do during our lives, for rewards and loss of rewards, NOT for salvation (justification). I was judged for that, IN Christ, at His cross.

Works/deeds are the very definer of the just and the unjust:

15 having hope toward God, which these also themselves look for, that there shall be a resurrection both of the just and unjust. Acts 24

28 Marvel not at this: for the hour cometh, in which all that are in the tombs shall hear his voice,
29 and shall come forth; they that have done good, unto the resurrection of life; and they that have done evil, unto the resurrection of judgment. Jn 5

 

[kyredneck]

Ky, that would be a good time to break out a couple of commentaries and see what others think.

Nah, I already know where hoi polloi stands on this. Besides, I'd be going backwards if I put my Bible away and succumbed to 'other men's opinions'.

I've a challenge for you and @MrW (actually two):

Produce one passage of scripture that states that justification is by faith only.

Produce one passage of scripture that mentions our faith at the judgement.

 

[DaveXR650]

Produce one passage of scripture that states that justification is by faith only.

They are numerous but Ephesians 2:8-9 completely does away with works being involved in our justification. As for the one pundit on here who tried to lecture me on the fact that justification and salvation are different, I would just point out that if that were true the case is strengthened because in that case the whole package of salvation, which includes justification, is faith based.

Produce one passage of scripture that mentions our faith at the judgement.

Owen talks extensively about a "second" or double justification, not as the Catholics believed, but as a vindication or public notice of who Christ's followers are. How could there possibly be a judgement before others based on faith? You can't see it, but you can observe the results. We call Hebrews chapter 11 the "faith" chapter, but in every example given it says "by faith _____ did this or that". I have no argument with the idea that works manifest faith and in that sense are indeed essential.

But what theologians worry about is what you are doing. If you get this theology mixed up you can go off on a tangent which can cause you problems. The Roman Catholics did that. So did guys I really look up to like Richard Baxter. But yes, the free grace camp can and does run into the same problem the other way if they say one can be saved (justified) and then have no change in life and no further response to God.

 

[DaveXR650]

While you're at just take a black magic marker and strike through all the other passages of scripture you don't like.

James is singing from the same song book as Paul:

Of course they are, and of course Luther was wrong in questioning the book of James. But when 2 verses in our language directly contradict each other it will require further insight to resolve, not just restating the one you prefer.

I think it was you who mentioned Hodge earlier. Hodge, if it's the one I am thinking of has a whole book on "Justification". He explains all this very well. (He also interchanges justification and salvation in common usage.) But my point is that if you are going to quote him, why don't you take a few minutes and read what his opinion is on the subject we are talking about rather than stumbling around on your own. You don't have to reinvent the wheel. Commentaries are good.

Right. Hodge's 2nd rule of interpretation:

2. Scripture cannot contradict scripture.

 

[kyredneck]

They are numerous

No they're not, there's not a single passage that states that justification is by faith only. It doesn't exist. But James 2:24 definitely exists.

but Ephesians 2:8-9 completely does away with works being involved in our justification.

No it doesn't. Ephesians 2:8-9 is not about justification.

Owen talks extensively

So, you're unable to:

Produce one passage of scripture that states that justification is by faith only.

Produce one passage of scripture that mentions our faith at the judgement.

It's OK Dave, neither one exists.

 

[DaveXR650]

Produce one passage of scripture that states that justification is by faith only.

Ephesians 2:8-9 is about justification, maybe even more. There has always been a raging debate about whether faith there is also a gift or whether "gift" just refers to grace. You are the only one I have ever heard of who rejects the whole passage.
Romans 3:20 and 21 you never responded to. Romans 5:1. All the passages in John referring to the fact that those who believe are saved mean "have faith". You are being deliberately obstinate but you are entitled to your own opinion.

Produce one passage of scripture that mentions our faith at the judgement.

You haven't answered my point about why you would have a public judgement where faith was the criteria since the observers would have no ability to "see" faith - except by the necessary results. And I agree that there will and must be results that can be observed so what is the problem?

If you go back and carefully read James you will find that the message is that you don't want to rely on the fact that you are a "hearer" of the word because you can end up with a type of "faith" that is not real. How can you tell if you really believe something? By whether you act on it. MacArthur wrote all those books about the gospel according to Jesus, the Apostles and so on and got a lot of criticism for mixing up faith and works. Piper gets the same for his books on faith in that some say he goes too far in claiming the need for works. Jonathan Edwards even got criticized for mixing works in with justification. So did most of the Puritans. I agree with those guys and don't think they went too far but if you are saying that our actual justification occurs at some future time and is based on a judgement of our deeds then you are outside normal Christian thought. I'm sorry to have to tell you that but it is simply a fact.

 

[MrW]

Amen; Ephesians 2:8-10. How about some more?

Romans 3:28
Therefore we conclude that a man is justified by faith without the deeds of the law.

Romans 5:1
Therefore being justified by faith, we have peace with God through our Lord Jesus Christ:

Galatians 3:24
Wherefore the law was our schoolmaster [to bring us] unto Christ, that we might be justified by faith.

Romans 10:9
That if thou shalt confess with thy mouth the Lord Jesus, and shalt believe in thine heart that God hath raised him from the dead, thou shalt be saved.

Acts 16:31
And they said, Believe on the Lord Jesus Christ, and thou shalt be saved, and thy house.

 

[kyredneck]

You are the only one I have ever heard of who rejects the whole passage.

You falsely accuse me. I don't reject it, at all! The passage is not about justification, it's about deliverance (saved), with no mention of 'faith alone'.

And you are pitting scripture against scripture in a big way with no effort at all to harmonize.

Romans 3:20 and 21 you never responded to.

You've a very short memory, I harmonized here:

"What Paul said can be confusing:

13 …the doers of the law shall be justified...Ro 2

20 ...by the works of the law shall no flesh be justified... Ro 3"

...but this is not apples and apples; the one is in the spirit, the other is in the letter."

you never responded to. Romans 5:1

Yes I did, post #27. You keep falsely accusing me and I'll start ignoring you. Ro 5:9 proves that justification is not by faith alone (well, they all do):

"...13 for not the hearers of the law are just before God, but the doers of the law shall be justified: Ro 2
24 being justified freely by his grace through the redemption that is in Christ Jesus: Ro 3
1 Being therefore justified by faith, we have peace with God through our Lord Jesus Christ;
9 Much more then, being now justified by his blood, shall we be saved from the wrath of God through him. Ro 5
33 Who shall lay anything to the charge of God`s elect? It is God that justifieth; Ro 8..."

All the passages in John referring to the fact that those who believe are saved mean "have faith".

??? When/where/what post were we in John? You've lost me.

You are being deliberately obstinate

There you go, wrongly accusing me, again. I'm deliberately trying to shake your tree and get you look outside of your box to scripture. I'm beginning to think the real problem here is that you just don't know your Bible.

You haven't answered my point

I was looking for one itsy bitsy tiny passage of scripture that even mentions 'our faith' in the judgement, not your human reasoning, and you're not able to produce it (if you even tried). The final judgement is all about works, with no mention of faith. You 'faith aloners' should at least have enough interest in your Bible to wonder, why?

If you go back and carefully read James

<sigh>:

"The works that James was talking about in his epistle:

27 Pure religion and undefiled before our God and Father is this, to visit the fatherless and widows in their affliction, and to keep oneself unspotted from the world. Ja 1
15 If a brother or sister be naked and in lack of daily food,
16 and one of you say unto them, Go in peace, be ye warmed and filled; and yet ye give them not the things needful to the body; what doth it profit? Ja 2

...are the same works we're all going to be judged by.

The just:

34 Then shall the King say unto them on his right hand, Come, ye blessed of my Father, inherit the kingdom prepared for you from the foundation of the world:
35 for I was hungry, and ye gave me to eat; I was thirsty, and ye gave me drink; I was a stranger, and ye took me in;
36 naked, and ye clothed me; I was sick, and ye visited me; I was in prison, and ye came unto me.

The unjust:

41 Then shall he say also unto them on the left hand, Depart from me, ye cursed, into the eternal fire which is prepared for the devil and his angels:
42 for I was hungry, and ye did not give me to eat; I was thirsty, and ye gave me no drink;
43 I was a stranger, and ye took me not in; naked, and ye clothed me not; sick, and in prison, and ye visited me not. Mt 25

Ye see that by works a man is justified, and not only by faith."

"James is singing from the same song book as Paul:

"13 for not the hearers of the law are just before God, but the doers of the law shall be justified: Ro 2

22 But be ye doers of the word, and not hearers only, deluding your own selves. Ja 2
24 Ye see that by works a man is justified, and not only by faith. Ja 2"

Go ahead Dave, rip the book of James out of your Bible (as if you ever read it) and get that magic marker and strike out Paul where you don't like him.

 

[DaveXR650]

You falsely accuse me. I don't reject it, at all! The passage is not about justification, it's about deliverance (saved), with no mention of 'faith alone'.

It is about justification whether you like it or not. And if something is the only thing mentioned you might say it means "alone". Probably the reformers thought they should add alone for emphasis just in case someone would read that passage (Ephesians 2:8-9) and somehow fail to realize that "works" are specifically excluded.
Romans 3:20 stands as written.

Yes I did, post #27. You keep falsely accusing me and I'll start ignoring you. Ro 5:9 proves that justification is not by faith alone (well, they all do):

"...13 for not the hearers of the law are just before God, but the doers of the law shall be justified: Ro 2
24 being justified freely by his grace through the redemption that is in Christ Jesus: Ro 3
1 Being therefore justified by faith, we have peace with God through our Lord Jesus Christ;
9 Much more then, being now justified by his blood, shall we be saved from the wrath of God through him. Ro 5
33 Who shall lay anything to the charge of God`s elect? It is God that justifieth; Ro 8..."

This is gibberish.

??? When/where/what post were we in John? You've lost me.

You know. Those obscure verses like John 3:16. I know this is going out on a limb here but when it says "believe" that is referring to faith.

"James is singing from the same song book as Paul:

He is. All of Paul's letters start out with doctrine and then move into practical application. What you do is take the practical application and make that into doctrine. You do not have to do "deeds" in order to be justified. In fact a doctrine like that, where deeds are intended to provide merit to enable one to pass a future judgement as to whether justification has been earned is way off the mark. Christ paid a price for your justification and you visiting a sick person will not add anything to that price.

That is exactly why everyone is so careful to make sure even good guys like Piper, Edwards, Mac, the Puritans and so on don't even hint of going in that direction. The necessity of good works and amended life as evidence of true faith and justification is not being disputed by me. That's what James was talking about. You need to seriously stop this nonsense. Is there anyone on a Baptist board that agrees with you in any way on this?

 

[kyredneck]

It is about justification whether you like it or not.

It's not about justification, whether you like it or not.

This is gibberish.

I quoted scripture. If that's the way you feel about it then rip it out of your Bible or use that black magic marker to strike it out so it pleases you in what it says.

Those obscure verses like John 3:16. I know this is going out on a limb here but when it says "believe" that is referring to faith.

John 3:16 is a statement of fact, not an invitation, and it puzzles me why you would think it supports your anti-scriptural premise of 'justification by faith alone''. And you haven't gone out on a limb at all - the word 'faith' is not to be found in the gospel of John. Belief is synonymous with faith in the gospel of John. The word just carries more of a sense of 'reliance' than faith carries.

You do not have to do "deeds" in order to be justified.

I've not posited that in the least. You're just 'knee jerk reacting' with no thought in what |I've presented.

In fact a doctrine like that, where deeds are intended to provide merit to enable one to pass a future judgement as to whether justification has been earned is way off the mark.

I've not posited that in the least. You're just 'knee jerk reacting' with no thought in what I've presented.

Christ paid a price for your justification and you visiting a sick person will not add anything to that price.

Ohhhh Dave, our 'works' are so much on a deeper level than that. It even goes to our thoughts and the imaginations of our hearts.

He is. All of Paul's letters start out with doctrine and then move into practical application. What you do is take the practical application and make that into doctrine.

No, I'm not. I'm 'shaking your tree' to get you to wake up and take note of something. Again, you're just 'knee jerk reacting' with no thought in what I've presented.

good works and amended life as evidence of true faith

NO! Evidence that God has wrought within! Evidence of the 'birth from above', not of our faith. The Spirit is the source of both our works and our faith. You agreed with me on that earlier. Your memory failing you again?

 

[DaveXR650]

Ohhhh Dave, our 'works' are so much on a deeper level than that. It even goes to our thoughts and the imaginations of our hearts.

No. Don't do that. You have been insisting that the judgement is based on works, now you have switched back to "thoughts and intents of the heart". Which are you going to go with? Why not add faith? What happened to the "doers"?

NO! Evidence that God has wrought within! Evidence of the 'birth from above', not of our faith. The Spirit is the source of both our works and our faith. You agreed with me on that earlier. Your memory failing you again?

See. This is what's weird. You have just conceded everything that I have been saying - except now you awkwardly omit "faith", even though faith is the link of us to all those benefits. Ky, you have a strange mixture of reformed and Pelagian theology that I have never seen before. I've pointed it out and everyone can see the posts. You have a nice day.

 

[kyredneck]

No. Don't do that. You have been insisting that the judgement is based on works, now you have switched back to "thoughts and intents of the heart". Which are you going to go with? Why not add faith? What happened to the "doers"?

Are you able to get the gist of Matthew 5:21-22; Matthew 5:27-28?

The invert is true, it goes both ways:

5 but after thy hardness and impenitent heart treasurest up for thyself wrath in the day of wrath and revelation of the righteous judgment of God;
6 who will render to every man according to his works:
7 to them that by patience in well-doing seek for glory and honor and incorruption, eternal life:
10 but glory and honor and peace to every man that worketh good, to the Jew first, and also to the Greek:
13 for not the hearers of the law are just before God, but the doers of the law shall be justified:
14 (for when Gentiles that have not the law do by nature the things of the law, these, not having the law, are the law unto themselves;
15 in that they show the work of the law written in their hearts, their conscience bearing witness therewith, and their thoughts one with another accusing or else excusing them); Ro 2

 

[kyredneck]

Amen; Ephesians 2:8-10. How about some more?

NONE of your passages state that justification is by faith ALONE.

 

[kyredneck]

No. Don't do that. You have been insisting that the judgement is based on works, now you have switched back to "thoughts and intents of the heart". Which are you going to go with? Why not add faith? What happened to the "doers"?

Excellent question, which I'm convinced answers why 'our' faith is never mentioned at the judgment. In the final analysis, our faith is accounted for righteousness, i.e., righteous acts. John 6:28-29

I'm convinced that the 'works' of the saints at the judgment are actually 'fruits' of the Spirit.

22 And the fruit of the Spirit is: Love, joy, peace, long-suffering, kindness, goodness, faith,
23 meekness, temperance: against such there is no law; Gal 5