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ROMANS 8:5-8 DOES NOT SUPPORT TOTAL INABILITY

Discussion in '2003 Archive' started by William C, Feb 21, 2003.

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  1. William C

    William C New Member

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    Yes, it can be uncomfortable. Why, has it happened to me yet outside your vivid imagination? </font>[/QUOTE]
    Nope, not my imagination. You said that no one could hear unless God says so, and God said so!

    Face it Nick, you have contradicted yourself! :D
     
    #61 William C, Feb 27, 2003
  2. npetreley

    npetreley New Member

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    Yeah, Mr. Bill, and two verses earlier it says "Hearing they will hear and not understand". So obviously in this case "hearing" does not mean "understand".

    To people who are interested in the truth, the meaning of the word "hear" depends upon the context. For you, the meaning is determined by whatever wins the game.

    Talk about sad.
     
    #62 npetreley, Feb 27, 2003
  3. Yelsew

    Yelsew Guest

    This argument is bogus unless you establish the frame of reference.

    God does not need a book called the bible to learn how God is supposed to be. God established the written word "logos" for mankind alone, and not for the stars, or the moon or the planets, or the cows, or horseflies, or "ROCKs that fall because they have no free will", they all "hear" God's word for them in the manner God established for them to "hear" it.

    God gave man six senses.
    Eyes, Ears, Nose, Mouth, Skin and spirit so that man can see, hear speak, smell, feel, and sense the presence of all that is around him. We call that "human awareness".

    It is with our awareness that we "hear" the voice of God in whatever form it comes to us. From these senses we establish within our spirit (soul, if you like) the God word, that we live our lives by. That is another meaning for "hear", for now we have knowledge of God within us, through our perception senses, which we apply to our lives. Therefore we are known by that which we "hear" and apply of the word of God in our lives. The Holy Spirit interacts with man through man's spirit, and confirms the truthes we receive through our other senses.

    Yes Man has the ability to hear the word of God, God gave it to man in the creation. It is not something that must be "activated" through "regeneration" it is already inherent in man. Regeneration implies using the same stuff, but unclogging it so that it works the way God intended. God alone knows our inner workings, and God alone does the regeneration. He does not regenerate the unwilling!
     
    #63 Yelsew, Feb 27, 2003
  4. William C

    William C New Member

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    Hello! 2 verses earlier he is speaking about the Israelites who have rebelled against God for years and who have been hardened as a result. Are you saying that this follow statement was Paul's intent in this passage:

    Israel will hear and not understand because they were Hardened, but the Gentiles will hear, however they are "hardened"(by the Fall) so they won't understand either.

    IF PAUL WASN'T CONTRASTING THE GENTILES ABILITY WITH THE ISRAELITES ABILITY WHAT DID HE MEAN WHEN HE SAID "THEY WILL HEAR!" ???

    Wait..before you answer that. If you tell me that Paul was just saying that he is switching from preaching to Israel to preaching to the Gentiles, I have a follow up question:

    Why? Why did he switch from preaching to the Israelites to the Gentiles? Why was he frustrated with Israel? Because they were HARDENED. They would hear him, but they couldn't understand, believe or turn and be forgiven.

    If Paul was a Calvinist he would have known that the Gentiles were hardened too by the Fall (but he would call it "Total Inability") so why would he think he would be any better off preaching to the Gentiles unless he knew that they not only would hear, but could understand as well?

    It doesn't make any sense for Paul to get frustrated with Israel and quote prophecies about their Total inability to understand and believe, then contrast them with the Gentiles saying they will hear when (according to you) he knows full well that they are totally unable to understand and believe too.

    Can you please explain this. It doesn't make any sense!
     
    #64 William C, Feb 27, 2003
  5. npetreley

    npetreley New Member

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    I'll be glad to explain it after you provide that scriptural support for your assumption that hardening is 1-for-1 the same thing as the inability to respond to the gospel. I'm still waiting.
     
    #65 npetreley, Feb 27, 2003
  6. William C

    William C New Member

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    Yeah, that is the real reason you won't answer this question, as if you require Yelsew to back up all of his arguments before you throw out any random answer, I wonder why you won't answer this one? Hmmmm. Because you know you CAN'T!!!!! :eek:

    Could you define for me Calvinism view of "Total Inability?" Or do you want me to pull a quote off the internet so we can show the simlarities between "hardening" and "total inability?" Which ever you prefer is fine. Just let me know.

    (BTW, how am I supposed to find scripture support for hardening being the 1 for 1 equivalent of "total inability" if I don't believe that the Bible teaches "total inability" except for when it speaks of hardening? Your asking me to support your view for you. It can't be done, which is one reason I'm no longer a Calvinist.)
     
    #66 William C, Feb 27, 2003
  7. Yelsew

    Yelsew Guest

    How much of man was hardened?

    Was it a physical hardening like what happened to Lot's wife?

    Is that what happened in Athens and Rome, where all those hard human figures are?

    What do you mean by hardened?

    Do you mean that the muscle between the ears was flexed so that they could not "hear" and thus believe?

    Or was the lesson too hard?
     
    #67 Yelsew, Feb 28, 2003
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