Romans 8:6.....What is it getting at.

[JonC]

I thought so. You are right about diversions. But isn't that typical of the BB?

On the other hand, refusing to apply Romans 8 to our lives and instead posting so much of Owen's book is kinda a diversion as well.

The importance of Romans 8 is not how Owen applied it but what it means and how we apply it to our interactions with others.

 

[agedman]

On the other hand, refusing to apply Romans 8 to our lives and instead posting so much of Owen's book is kinda a diversion as well.

The importance of Romans 8 is not how Owen applied it but what it means and how we apply it to our interactions with others.

Application is often left out not only by those who could quote sources yet lead ruinous lives but also by those hearing the quotations and finding no cause to change. I think our Lord more often faced the sort of folks that wanted to agree as long as He had no criticism of them.

It is certainly important to gather information, as you were expressing in earlier posts, and to glean from them that which can also be Scripturally applied to our own living.

There is a difficulty (in my experience) in the church that needs to become a real issue.

People are quick to hear, and as quick to dismiss.

Folks who often shout the loudest "Amen" may be the least to actually apply the lessons of learning.

"Let us love others as we love ourselves," may get that big conformation in the assembly, but is little seen on Monday.

So, you are correct in this, also.

It is my own hope, that as @Iconoclast posts these short presentations of the larger work, some will be enticed to read of the larger work and that the Scriptures will guide them into the truth.

One of our great advantages is to read from the ancients. We can read from both John and one of his students Polycarp, and Polycarp's student, Irenaeus, and so forth. These are good and valuable to read.

But when it comes to our own living, as you said, God grants to every age that preaching necessary. To often, as is seen in every age, the preaching is heard, but not applied.

 

[Iconoclast]

I thought so. You are right about diversions. But isn't that typical of the BB?

That has happened a time or two.

 

[Iconoclast]

JonC,

On the other hand, refusing to apply Romans 8 to our lives and instead posting so much of Owen's book is kinda a diversion as well.

JonC, you were asked nicely to start your own thread. This thread is not about Romans 8....it is about one verse vs6.
It is not about your view of Puritan Poetry, historical battles, or anything else you are offering to divert from the thread.
No one is interested in what you think it should be, but what John Owen wrote on this.
Start your own thread, then you can make it be about what you want.
Bye Bye JonC. thanks for your ideas.

[QUOTE]The importance of Romans 8 [/QUOTE]
That is not the topic

 

[Iconoclast]

. And shall men be more negligent about the spiritual distempers of their souls, so as to have multiplied temptations, the cause of all spiritual diseases, and take no thought about them?

Is it not to be feared that where it is so, they are such as either in their own nature have deprived them of spiritual sense, or by their deceitfulness are leading on insensibly unto death eternal?

Not to have our minds exercised about these things is to be stupidly secure, Proverbs 23:34,35. There is, I confess, some difficulty in this matter, how to exercise our thoughts aright about our temptations; for the great way of the prevalency of temptations is by stirring up multiplied thoughts about their objects, or what they do lead unto. And this is done or occasioned several ways: —
(1.) From the previous power of lust in the affections. This will fill the mind with thoughts. The heart will coin imaginations in compliance therewith. They are the way and means whereby lust draws away the heart from duty and enticeth unto sin, James 1:14; the means at least whereby men come to have "eyes full of adultery," 2 Peter 2:14, or to live in constant contemplation of the pleasures of sin.

(2.) They arise and are occasioned by renewed representations of the object of sin. And this is twofold: — [1.] That which is real, as Achan saw the wedge of gold and coveted it, Joshua 7:21; Proverbs 23:31. Against this is that prayer of the psalmist, "Turn away mine eyes from beholding vanity;" and the covenant of Job, chapter 31:1. [2.] Imaginary, when the imagination, being tainted or infected by lust, continually represents the pleasure of sin and the actings of it unto the mind. Herein do men "make provision for the flesh, to fulfill the lusts thereof," Romans 13:16.

(3.) From the suggestions of Satan, who useth all his wiles and artifices to stir up thoughts about that sin whereunto the temptation leads. And temptation seldom fails of its end, when it can stir up a multitude of unprofitable thoughts about its object; for when temptations do multiply thoughts about sin, proceeding from some or all of these causes, and the mind hath wonted itself to give them entertainment, those in whom they are do want nothing but opportunities and occasions, taking off the power of outward restraints, for the commission of actual sin.

When men have so devised mischief, "they practice it" when it is "in the power of their hand," Micah 2:1. It is no way safe to advise such persons to have many thoughts about their temptations; they will all turn to their disadvantage.

 

[Iconoclast]

JonC,

On the other hand, refusing to apply Romans 8 to our lives and instead posting so much of Owen's book is kinda a diversion as well.

Any one who has actually read John Owen knows how he takes a long time to exhaustively teach on a topic. You have made claims that He is not relevant today, and I have noticed you have failed to engage any portion of what he wrote??? No, I do not think your claims are consistent. Any who read Owen would know what was coming.
Why do you seek to turn every thread into"the thoughts of JonC"?

Those reading want to see and consider these ideas and verses offered, yes even before your "10 year curfew".
Start your thread, present your thoughts and see how many view it!

 

[JonC]

JonC,


Any one who has actually read John Owen knows how he takes a long time to exhaustively teach on a topic. You have made claims that He is not relevant today, and I have noticed you have failed to engage any portion of what he wrote??? No, I do not think your claims are consistent. Any who read Owen would know what was coming.
Why do you seek to turn every thread into"the thoughts of JonC"?

Those reading want to see and consider these ideas and verses offered, yes even before your "10 year curfew".
Start your thread, present your thoughts and see how many view it!

My thoughts were twofold.

1. I believe that we can gain from reading Puritian writings, to include John Owen. I told you that one of my favorite books is The Valley of Vision (which is a collection of Puritian writings) and I strongly recommend The Mortification of the Flesh (which is by John Owen). I love reading Spurgeon's and Jonathan Edward's works as well. C.S. Lewis is another I have benefitted from, as is D.L. Moody.

So your claim that I believe they are not relevant today is removing my comment out of it's context. None of those mentioned are relevant to Practical Theology (I think I used the term "Applied Theology"). That does not discount their worth in general.

2. My other thought was what is meant by Romans 8:6. This is what I explained, and I am not quite sure how you can suggest I should not post my thoughts as you asked for them in the OP.

Romans 8:6 tells us a mind set on the flesh is death, but a mind set on the Spirit is life and peace.

In our shared environment how does this look? A mind set on the flesh insults brethern, causes strife, etc. A mind set on the Spirit is kind to the brethern, gentle.

Were this a thread about John Owen it would be different. You should start one. This thread is about Romans 8:6.

Here is the OP:

6 For to be carnally minded is death; but to be spiritually minded is life and peace.

Perhaps some of you have considered this verse.

What is it getting at?

What are we to consider with this verse?

List any thoughts you have on this.

Here I ask how you apply the passage.

 

[Iconoclast]

"JonC,

Were this a thread about John Owen it would be different. You should start one. This thread is about Romans 8:6.[/QUOTE]

The OP asked about this verse to draw out responses about verse 6.....how could people develop it. Most had a verse or two, shallow responses.
The real substance of the thread was identified in post 10 then post 13


The outline of this work was given in post 13.
That has been the real focus

 

[JonC]

"JonC,

If you intended this to be a discussion of John Owen's book rather than Romans 8:6 then you would have done better to say so before the 13th post. The discussion was already underway by the time you introduced Owen.

That said, there is no problem introducing Owen's ideas and application. But you should not chastise others for dealing with the OP. Iron sharpens iron.

 

[JonC]

Application is often left out not only by those who could quote sources yet lead ruinous lives but also by those hearing the quotations and finding no cause to change. I think our Lord more often faced the sort of folks that wanted to agree as long as He had no criticism of them.

It is certainly important to gather information, as you were expressing in earlier posts, and to glean from them that which can also be Scripturally applied to our own living.

There is a difficulty (in my experience) in the church that needs to become a real issue.

People are quick to hear, and as quick to dismiss.

Folks who often shout the loudest "Amen" may be the least to actually apply the lessons of learning.

"Let us love others as we love ourselves," may get that big conformation in the assembly, but is little seen on Monday.

So, you are correct in this, also.

It is my own hope, that as @Iconoclast posts these short presentations of the larger work, some will be enticed to read of the larger work and that the Scriptures will guide them into the truth.

One of our great advantages is to read from the ancients. We can read from both John and one of his students Polycarp, and Polycarp's student, Irenaeus, and so forth. These are good and valuable to read.

But when it comes to our own living, as you said, God grants to every age that preaching necessary. To often, as is seen in every age, the preaching is heard, but not applied.

I find often people mistake spiritual knowledge with cognitive learning. I've done this before. But spiritual knowledge is application. Anybody can read the Bible and understand what it says. Anybody can read "the mind set on the flesh is death, but the mind set on the Spirit is life and peace" and understand what the passage means by examining the context of the passage.

But spiritual knowledge is how that applies to our lives. It is not reading that we should set our minds on the Spirit but actually setting our minds on the Spirit. One cannot understand in this way except via the guidance of the Spirit

We can read John Wesley, John Owen, Irenaeus, George Miller (especially Muller), C.S. Lewis, A.W. Tozer and see how they applied Scripture - how God worked in their lives for His glory.

But without personal application it is nothing more than belief, in the sense that even the demons believe and tremble.

 

[Iconoclast]

If you intended this to be a discussion of John Owen's book rather than Romans 8:6 then you would have done better to say so before the 13th post. The discussion was already underway by the time you introduced Owen.

That said, there is no problem introducing Owen's ideas and application. But you should not chastise others for dealing with the OP. Iron sharpens iron.

I did it to see.if I would be surprised by the depth of the responses.
I was not

 

[JonC]

I did it to see.if I would be surprised by the depth of the responses.
I was not

Neither was I, for the most part. Few even attempted to apply the passage to their lives.

I did think Scripture itself provided a depth that surpassed anything else posted. But that is to be expected when we compare God's Word to man's understanding.

But to be fair, you did not really give a discussion a chance. You introduced Owen on the 13th post.

Speaking of other,'s interaction, how do you apply the passage?

 

[JonC]

Let's continue with the OP:

Romans 8:1–13 Therefore there is now no condemnation for those who are in Christ Jesus.For the law of the Spirit of life in Christ Jesus has set you free from the law of sin and of death. For what the Law could not do, weak as it was through the flesh, God did: sending His own Son in the likeness of sinful flesh and as an offering for sin, He condemned sin in the flesh, so that the requirement of the Law might be fulfilled in us, who do not walk according to the flesh but according to the Spirit.For those who are according to the flesh set their minds on the things of the flesh, but those who are according to the Spirit, the things of the Spirit. For the mind set on the flesh is death, but the mind set on the Spirit is life and peace, because the mind set on the flesh is hostile toward God; for it does not subject itself to the law of God, for it is not even able to do so, and those who are in the flesh cannot please God.However, you are not in the flesh but in the Spirit, if indeed the Spirit of God dwells in you. But if anyone does not have the Spirit of Christ, he does not belong to Him. If Christ is in you, though the body is dead because of sin, yet the spirit is alive because of righteousness. But if the Spirit of Him who raised Jesus from the dead dwells in you, He who raised Christ Jesus from the dead will also give life to your mortal bodies through His Spirit who dwells in you.So then, brethren, we are under obligation, not to the flesh, to live according to the flesh— for if you are living according to the flesh, you must die; but if by the Spirit you are putting to death the deeds of the body, you will live.

Galatians 5:16-26 I say, then, walk by the Spirit and you will certainly not carry out the desire of the flesh. For the flesh desires what is against the Spirit, and the Spirit desires what is against the flesh; these are opposed to each other, so that you don’t do what you want. But if you are led by the Spirit, you are not under the law. Now the works of the flesh are obvious: sexual immorality, moral impurity, promiscuity, idolatry, sorcery, hatreds, strife, jealousy, outbursts of anger, selfish ambitions, dissensions, factions, envy, drunkenness, carousing, and anything similar. I am warning you about these things—as I warned you before—that those who practice such things will not inherit the kingdom of God. But the fruit of the Spirit is love, joy, peace, patience, kindness, goodness, faithfulness, gentleness, and self-control. The law is not against such things. Now those who belong to Christ Jesus have crucified the flesh with its passions and desires. If we live by the Spirit, let us also keep in step with the Spirit. Let us not become conceited, provoking one another, envying one another.

1 John 1:5–7 This is the message we have heard from Him and announce to you, that God is Light, and in Him there is no darkness at all. If we say that we have fellowship with Him and yet walk in the darkness, we lie and do not practice the truth; but if we walk in the Light as He Himself is in the Light, we have fellowship with one another, and the blood of Jesus His Son cleanses us from all sin.

1 John 2:10–11 The one who loves his brother abides in the Light and there is no cause for stumbling in him. But the one who hates his brother is in the darkness and walks in the darkness, and does not know where he is going because the darkness has blinded his eyes.

This IS depth of Scripture (which goes even deeper). Here we should dive deep.

What is the spiritual truth of these passages? How are these passages applied?

Let's look at the context of this board (with our interactions...something we all share).

How does these passages apply to our interactions among one another?

 

[Iconoclast]

Let's continue with the OP:

Romans 8:1–13 Therefore there is now no condemnation for those who are in Christ Jesus.For the law of the Spirit of life in Christ Jesus has set you free from the law of sin and of death. For what the Law could not do, weak as it was through the flesh, God did: sending His own Son in the likeness of sinful flesh and as an offering for sin, He condemned sin in the flesh, so that the requirement of the Law might be fulfilled in us, who do not walk according to the flesh but according to the Spirit.For those who are according to the flesh set their minds on the things of the flesh, but those who are according to the Spirit, the things of the Spirit. For the mind set on the flesh is death, but the mind set on the Spirit is life and peace, because the mind set on the flesh is hostile toward God; for it does not subject itself to the law of God, for it is not even able to do so, and those who are in the flesh cannot please God.However, you are not in the flesh but in the Spirit, if indeed the Spirit of God dwells in you. But if anyone does not have the Spirit of Christ, he does not belong to Him. If Christ is in you, though the body is dead because of sin, yet the spirit is alive because of righteousness. But if the Spirit of Him who raised Jesus from the dead dwells in you, He who raised Christ Jesus from the dead will also give life to your mortal bodies through His Spirit who dwells in you.So then, brethren, we are under obligation, not to the flesh, to live according to the flesh— for if you are living according to the flesh, you must die; but if by the Spirit you are putting to death the deeds of the body, you will live.

Galatians 5:16-26 I say, then, walk by the Spirit and you will certainly not carry out the desire of the flesh. For the flesh desires what is against the Spirit, and the Spirit desires what is against the flesh; these are opposed to each other, so that you don’t do what you want. But if you are led by the Spirit, you are not under the law. Now the works of the flesh are obvious: sexual immorality, moral impurity, promiscuity, idolatry, sorcery, hatreds, strife, jealousy, outbursts of anger, selfish ambitions, dissensions, factions, envy, drunkenness, carousing, and anything similar. I am warning you about these things—as I warned you before—that those who practice such things will not inherit the kingdom of God. But the fruit of the Spirit is love, joy, peace, patience, kindness, goodness, faithfulness, gentleness, and self-control. The law is not against such things. Now those who belong to Christ Jesus have crucified the flesh with its passions and desires. If we live by the Spirit, let us also keep in step with the Spirit. Let us not become conceited, provoking one another, envying one another.

1 John 1:5–7 This is the message we have heard from Him and announce to you, that God is Light, and in Him there is no darkness at all. If we say that we have fellowship with Him and yet walk in the darkness, we lie and do not practice the truth; but if we walk in the Light as He Himself is in the Light, we have fellowship with one another, and the blood of Jesus His Son cleanses us from all sin.

1 John 2:10–11 The one who loves his brother abides in the Light and there is no cause for stumbling in him. But the one who hates his brother is in the darkness and walks in the darkness, and does not know where he is going because the darkness has blinded his eyes.

This IS depth of Scripture (which goes even deeper). Here we should dive deep.

What is the spiritual truth of these passages? How are these passages applied?

Let's look at the context of this board (with our interactions...something we all share).

How does these passages apply to our interactions among one another?

This would be wonderful if and when you start your own thread.
This thread is on the grace and duty of being spiritually minded focused on the text of rom8:6.
21 chapters develop the verse....we are only in chap.5.
It is not a free for all.
Any interaction should be with the offered development of the text.

 

[JonC]

This would be wonderful if and when you start your own thread.
This thread is on the grace and duty of being spiritually minded focused on the text of rom8:6.
21 chapters develop the verse....we are only in chap.5.
It is not a free for all.
Any interaction should be with the offered development of the text.

Sorry. I was going off post 16 (@Martin Marprelate 's post about Romans 8). I thought his connection to the surrounding verses was good.

 

[JonC]

Wherefore, ordinarily, these give the best and surest measure of the frame of men’s minds. "As a man thinketh in his heart, so is he," Proverbs 23:7. In case of strong and violent temptations, the real frame of a man’s heart is not to be judged by the multiplicity of thoughts about any object, for whether they are from Satan’s suggestions, or from inward darkness, trouble, and horror, they will impose such a continual sense of themselves on the mind as shall engage all its thoughts about them; as when a man is in a storm at sea, the current of his thoughts run quite another way than when he is in safety about his occasions. But ordinarily voluntary thoughts are the best measure and indication of the frame of our minds. As the nature of the soil is judged by the grass which it brings forth, so may the disposition of the heart by the predomi-nancy of voluntary thoughts; they are the original actings of the soul, the way whereby the heart puts forth and empties the treasure that is in it, the waters that first rise and flow from that fountain.

Every man’s heart is his treasury, and the treasure that is in it is either good or evil, as our Savior tells us. There is a good and bad treasure of the heart; but whatever a man hath, be it good or evil, there it is. This treasure is opening, emptying, and spending itself continually, though it can never be exhausted; for it hath a fountain, in nature or grace, which no expense can diminish, yea, it increaseth and getteth strength by it. The more you spend of the treasure of your heart in any kind, the more will you abound in treasure of the same kind. Whether it be good or evil, it grows by expense and exercise; and the principal way whereby it puts forth itself is by the thoughts of the mind.
If the heart be evil, they are for the most part vain, filthy, corrupt, wicked, foolish; it it be under the power of a principle of grace, and so have a good treasure in it, it puts forth itself by thoughts suitable unto its nature and compliant with its inclinations. Wherefore, these thoughts give the best measure of the frame of our minds and hearts, I mean such as are voluntary, such as the mind of its own accord is apt for, inclines and ordinarily betakes itself unto. Men may have a multitude of thoughts about the affairs of their callings and the occasions of life, which yet may give no due measure of the inward frame of their hearts. So men whose calling and work it is to study the Scripture, or the things revealed therein, and to preach them unto others cannot but have many thoughts about spiritual things, and yet may be, and oftentimes are, most remote from being spiritually minded. They may be forced by their work and calling to think of them early and late, evening and morning, and yet their minds be no way rendered or proved spiritual thereby. It were well if all of us who are preachers would diligently examine ourselves herein. So is it with them who oblige themselves to read the Scriptures, it may be so many chapters every day. Notwithstanding the diligent performance of their task, they may be most remote from being spiritually minded. See Ezekiel 33:31.

But there is a certain track and course of thoughts that men ordinarily betake themselves unto when not affected with present occasions. If these be vain, foolish, proud, ambitious, sensual, or filthy, such is the mind and its frame; if they be holy, spiritual, and heavenly, such may the frame of the mind be judged to be. But these things must be more fully explained.

John Owen is saying what I have been saying on this thread - that we need to examine ourselves. But he applies this to preachers. Romans was not written specifically to preachers but to Christians in Rome. It applies to all.

Owen is correct that we should examine ourselves.

Look at our own interactions. What does that say about our heart. What does how we interact with one another tell us about ourselves - is our mind set on the flesh or the Spirit.

Do we insult others, are we unkind, harsh? Or do we love others, are we kind, gentle?

 

[JonC]

One thing no Puritan writer ever did was give the kind of blanket, presumptuous assurance that we modern day Christians often are taught - where we can make some kind of profession and then sin or not sin as we choose knowing all the while that we are safe. This is very confusing for modern Christians because the Puritans very much believed in the perseverance of the saints, but they believed that being concerned and worrying that you are on a wrong path or engaging in some sin and correcting that was part of the "perseverance". Assurance of your salvation is not always present according to the Puritans. But you have to be careful because assurance of salvation is part of saving faith and there are some sensitive, good Christians who I have seen actually get depressed when they read too much of the Puritans.

I agree. We are to test ourselves. Scripture even tells us those who fail the test will not inherit the kingdom of God.

Men can quote Scripture, quote Owen, quote Wesley.....but unless they are born again they will perish. And we are not still born. Peter tells us we were saved to do good works.

Some on this board should carefully consider their interactions with the brethern. We all should. Online forums are often a better window into the heart of a man because of the level of ananominity it affords.

Christians stumble (perhaps me more often than others) but we recover. But by the grace of God we do not stay where we have fallen.

 

[Iconoclast]

Sorry. I was going off post 16 (@Martin Marprelate 's post about Romans 8). I thought his connection to the surrounding verses was good.

It was very good ....but the focus is vs.6
Everyone has offered good verses,but none of those verses explain vs6 clearly.

 

[JonC]

The first sort are "carnally minded," the other are "spiritually minded." Unto one of these doth every living man belong; he is under the ruling conduct of the flesh or of the Spirit; there is no middle state, though there are different degrees in each of these as to good and evil.

This is an interesting statement

There are men who set their minds on the flesh, which is death.

There are men who set their minds on the Spirit, which is life and peace.

Owen tells us there is no middle state, just varying degrees of one or the other.

I am not sure that this is correct.

Scripture tells us that those who insult, abuse, slander other people will not inherit the Kingdom.

But don't some who are truly saved have an occasion to sin?

It does not make the sin a degree of Spiritual mindfulness.


I tend to look at the believer as in a struggle with the flesh, of having to discipline the body (the desires).

A brother may insult another, and in that moment he has his mind set on the flesh. In that moment he has given sin a door. But if he is truly saved then will he not repent? Will Christ not forgive?

If he does not repent, then perhaps he is indeed Christian only by name.

 

[JonC]

It was very good ....but the focus is vs.6
Everyone has offered good verses,but none of those verses explain vs6 clearly.

I disagree. Romans 8 as a whole explains verse 6 very well.

Owen's book is very good as well (but he uses the verse as a theme, he is not explaining the actual verse).