Romans 8:6.....What is it getting at.

[Iconoclast]

PART II. The two divisions of the proposed method respecting the inclination of the mind to spiritual thoughts and complacency in them are considered together; a preliminary account is given of the various ways by which God weans our affections from the world, XÌ. In order that our affections may be spiritual, it is shown, —

I. that in principle they must be renewed by grace: which renovation is proved, —

1. By the universality of the gracious change produced;

2. The delight experienced in sacred duties;

3. The assimilating influence exerted on the mind by spiritual objects; and,

4. By the circumstance that, if our affections are renewed, the person of Christ is the center of them, XII.-XVII

II. Spiritual mindedness in our affections is farther seen in the object about which they are conversant, — God in Christ. The considerations endearing the object to us are, —

1. its infinite beauty;

2. the fullness of wisdom in spiritual things;

3. their value as perfective of our present condition; and,

4. as constituting in the future enjoyment of them our eternal blessedness, XIX.

III. The soul’s application to such objects must be firm, accompanied with a spiritual relish for them, must afford a continual spring of spiritual affections, must be prevailing and victorious, and afford help in subduing the remaining vanity to which the heart may be addicted,

XX. After this copious exposition of the nature of spiritual mindedneas, the blessings accruing from it are briefly unfolded, — "life and peace," XXI. — ED.

 

[Iconoclast]

The opposite subjects are, the "minding of the flesh" and the "minding of the Spirit," or the being "carnally minded" and "spiritually minded."

And these two do constitute two states of mankind, unto the one of which every individual person in the world doth belong;

and it is of the highest concernment unto the souls of men to know whether of them they appertain unto.

As unto the qualities expressed by "the flesh" and "the Spirit," there may be a mixture of them in the same persons at the same time, — there is so in all that are regenerate; for in them "the flesh lusteth
against the Spirit, and the Spirit against the flesh, and these are contrary," Galatians 5:17.

Thus different, contrary actings in the same subject constitute not distinct states; but where either of them is predominant or hath a prevalent rule in the soul, there it makes a different state.

This distinction of states the apostle expresseth, Romans 8:9, "But ye are not in the flesh, but in the Spirit."

Some are "in the flesh, and cannot please God," verse 8; they are "after the flesh," verse 5; they "walk after the flesh," verse 1; they "live after the flesh," verse 13. This is one state.


Others are "in the Spirit," verse 9; "after the Spirit," verse 5; "walk after the Spirit," verse 1. This is the other state.

The first sort are "carnally minded," the other are "spiritually minded." Unto one of these doth every living man belong; he is under the ruling conduct of the flesh or of the Spirit; there is no middle state, though there are different degrees in each of these as to good and evil.

The difference between these two states is great, and the distance in a manner infinite, because an eternity in blessedness or misery doth depend upon it; and this at present is evidenced by the different fruits and effects of the principles and their operations which constitute these different states, which is expressed in the opposition that is between the predicates of the propositions: for the minding of the flesh is "death," but the minding of the Spirit is "life and peace." "To be carnally minded is death."

Death, as it is absolutely penal, is either spiritual or eternal. The first of these it is formally, the other meritoriously. It is formally death spiritual: for they that are carnally minded are "dead in trespasses and sins," Ephesians 2:1; for those who "fulfill the desires of the flesh and of the mind are by nature children of wrath," verse 3, — are penally under the power of spiritual death. They are "dead in sins and the uncircumcision of the flesh," Colossians 2:13. And it is death eternal meritoriously: "For if ye live after the flesh, ye shall die," Romans 8:13; as "the wages of sin is death," chapter 6:23. The reason why the apostle denounces so woeful a doom, so dreadful a sentence, on the carnal mind, he declares in the two next verses: "Because the carnal mind is enmity against God; for it is not subject to the law of God, neither indeed can be.

So then they that are in the flesh cannot please God." If it be thus with the carnal mind, it is no wonder that "to be carnally minded is death;" it is not meet it should be any thing else. That which is enmity against God is under the curse of God.


In opposition hereunto it is affirmed that "to be spiritually minded," or the minding of the Spirit, "is life and peace." And these are the things which we are particularly to inquire into, — namely,

What is this "minding of the Spirit;" and then, How it is "life and peace."

1. The "‘ Spirit " in this context is evidently used in a double sense, as is usual where both the Holy Spirit himself and his work on the souls of men are related unto.
(1.) The person of the Spirit of God himself, or the Holy Ghost, is intended by it: Romans 8:9, "If so be that the Spirit of God dwell in you." And so also verse 11, "The Spirit of him that raised up Jesus from the dead." He is spoken of as the principal efficient cause of all the spiritual mercies and benefits here and afterward insisted on.

(2.) It is used for the principle of spiritual life wrought in all that are regenerate by the Holy Ghost; for "that which is born of the Spirit is spirit," John 3:6. It is most probable that the name "Spirit" is here used in the latter sense

 

[JonC]

is this not a warning to the saved that if they continue though to have the flesh lead them, can and will reap a bitter harvest?

1 John 1:6-7. If we say that we have fellowship with Him and yet walk in the darkness, we lie and do not practice the truth; but if we walk in the Light as He Himself is in the Light, we have fellowship with one another, and the blood of Jesus His Son cleanses us from all sin.

 

[Iconoclast]

Wherefore, ordinarily, these give the best and surest measure of the frame of men’s minds. "As a man thinketh in his heart, so is he," Proverbs 23:7. In case of strong and violent temptations, the real frame of a man’s heart is not to be judged by the multiplicity of thoughts about any object, for whether they are from Satan’s suggestions, or from inward darkness, trouble, and horror, they will impose such a continual sense of themselves on the mind as shall engage all its thoughts about them; as when a man is in a storm at sea, the current of his thoughts run quite another way than when he is in safety about his occasions. But ordinarily voluntary thoughts are the best measure and indication of the frame of our minds. As the nature of the soil is judged by the grass which it brings forth, so may the disposition of the heart by the predomi-nancy of voluntary thoughts; they are the original actings of the soul, the way whereby the heart puts forth and empties the treasure that is in it, the waters that first rise and flow from that fountain.

Every man’s heart is his treasury, and the treasure that is in it is either good or evil, as our Savior tells us. There is a good and bad treasure of the heart; but whatever a man hath, be it good or evil, there it is. This treasure is opening, emptying, and spending itself continually, though it can never be exhausted; for it hath a fountain, in nature or grace, which no expense can diminish, yea, it increaseth and getteth strength by it. The more you spend of the treasure of your heart in any kind, the more will you abound in treasure of the same kind. Whether it be good or evil, it grows by expense and exercise; and the principal way whereby it puts forth itself is by the thoughts of the mind.
If the heart be evil, they are for the most part vain, filthy, corrupt, wicked, foolish; it it be under the power of a principle of grace, and so have a good treasure in it, it puts forth itself by thoughts suitable unto its nature and compliant with its inclinations. Wherefore, these thoughts give the best measure of the frame of our minds and hearts, I mean such as are voluntary, such as the mind of its own accord is apt for, inclines and ordinarily betakes itself unto. Men may have a multitude of thoughts about the affairs of their callings and the occasions of life, which yet may give no due measure of the inward frame of their hearts. So men whose calling and work it is to study the Scripture, or the things revealed therein, and to preach them unto others cannot but have many thoughts about spiritual things, and yet may be, and oftentimes are, most remote from being spiritually minded. They may be forced by their work and calling to think of them early and late, evening and morning, and yet their minds be no way rendered or proved spiritual thereby. It were well if all of us who are preachers would diligently examine ourselves herein. So is it with them who oblige themselves to read the Scriptures, it may be so many chapters every day. Notwithstanding the diligent performance of their task, they may be most remote from being spiritually minded. See Ezekiel 33:31.

But there is a certain track and course of thoughts that men ordinarily betake themselves unto when not affected with present occasions. If these be vain, foolish, proud, ambitious, sensual, or filthy, such is the mind and its frame; if they be holy, spiritual, and heavenly, such may the frame of the mind be judged to be. But these things must be more fully explained.

 

[Iconoclast]

It is the great character and description of the frame of men’s minds in an unregenerate condition, or before the renovation of their natures, that "every imagination of the thoughts of their hearts is only evil continually," Genesis 6:5. They are continually coining figments and imaginations in their hearts, stamping them into thoughts that are vain, foolish, and wicked. All other thoughts in them are occasional; these are the natural, genuine product of their hearts. Hence the dearest, and sometimes first, discovery of the bottomless evil treasure of filth, folly, and wickedness, that is in the heart of man by nature, is from the innumerable multitude of evil imaginations which are there coined and thrust forth every day. So the wicked are said to be "like the troubled sea when it cannot rest, whose waters cast .up mire and dirt," Isaiah 57:20. There is a fullness of evil in their hearts, like that of water in the sea; this fullness is troubled or put into continual motion by their lusts and impetuous desires; hence the mire and dirt of evil thoughts are continually cast up in them.

It is therefore evident that the predominancy of voluntary thoughts is the best and most sure indication of the inward frame and state of the mind; for if it be so on the one side as unto the carnal mind, it is so on the other
as unto the spiritual. Wherefore, to be spiritually minded, in the first place, is to have the course and stream of those thoughts which we ordinarily retreat unto, which we approve of as suited unto our affections, to be about spiritual things. Therein consists the minding of the Spirit.

But because all men, unless horribly profligate, have thoughts about spiritual things, yet we know that all men are not spiritually minded, we must consider what is required unto such thoughts to render them a certain indication of the state of our minds. And there are these three things required hereunto: —

 

[Iconoclast]

FIRST, That they be natural, arising from ourselves, and not from outward occasions. The psalmist mentions the "inward thought" of men,

Psalm 49:11, 11 Their inward thought is, that their houses shall continue for ever, and their dwelling places to all generations; they call their lands after their own names.

64:6; 6 They search out iniquities; they accomplish a diligent search: both the inward thought of every one of them, and the heart, is deep.

but whereas all thoughts are the inward acts of the mind, it should seem that this expression makes no distinction of the especial kind of thoughts intended from those of another sort. But the difference is not in the formal nature of them, but in the causes, springs, and occasions. Inward thoughts are such as arise merely and solely from men’s inward principles, dispositions, and inclinations, that are not suggested or excited by any outward objects. Such in wicked men are those actings of their lusts whereby they entice and seduce themselves, James 1:14. Their lusts stir up thoughts leading and encouraging them to make provision for the flesh. These are their "inward thoughts."

Of the same nature are those thoughts which are the "minding of the Spirit." They are the first natural egress and genuine acting of the habitual disposition of the mind and soul.

Thus in covetous men there are two sorts of thoughts whereby their covetousness acts itself: — First, such as are occasioned by outward objects and opportunities. So it was with Achan, Joshua 7:21. "When," saith he, "I saw among the spoils a goodly Babylonish garment, and two hundred shekels of silver, and a wedge of gold, then I coveted them." His sight of them, with an opportunity of possessing himself of them, excited covetous thoughts and desires in him. So is it with others every day, whose occasions call them to converse with the objects of their lusts. And some by such objects may be surprised into thoughts that their minds are not habitually inclined unto; and therefore when they are known, it is our duty to avoid them. But the same sort of persons have thoughts of this nature arising from themselves only, their own dispositions and inclinations, without any outward provocations.

"The vile person will speak villany, and his heart will work iniquity," Isaiah 32:6; and this he doth as the "liberal deviseth liberal things," verse 8. From his own disposition and inclination, he is contriving in his thoughts how to act according to them.

For the foolish person will speak foolishness,
And his heart will work iniquity:
To practice ungodliness,
To utter error against the Lord,
To keep the hungry unsatisfied,
And he will cause the drink of the thirsty to fail.

 

[AustinC]

Paul's main thought in Ch 8 is the believers position of no condemnation, but, as he did in Ch 7, Paul contrasts the position of the non-believer. In verses 5-8 we see this contrast. In this passage I like the NLT.

Those who are dominated by the sinful nature think about sinful things, but those who are controlled by the Holy Spirit think about things that please the Spirit. So letting your sinful nature control your mind leads to death. But letting the Spirit control your mind leads to life and peace. For the sinful nature is always hostile to God. It never did obey God’s laws, and it never will. That’s why those who are still under the control of their sinful nature can never please God.
~ Romans 8:5-8

 

[Iconoclast]

Thus in covetous men there are two sorts of thoughts whereby their covetousness acts itself: — First, such as are occasioned by outward objects and opportunities. So it was with Achan, Joshua 7:21. "When," saith he, "I saw among the spoils a goodly Babylonish garment, and two hundred shekels of silver, and a wedge of gold, then I coveted them." His sight of them, with an opportunity of possessing himself of them, excited covetous thoughts and desires in him. So is it with others every day, whose occasions call them to converse with the objects of their lusts. And some by such objects may be surprised into thoughts that their minds are not habitually inclined unto; and therefore when they are known, it is our duty to avoid them. But the same sort of persons have thoughts of this nature arising from themselves only, their own dispositions and inclinations, without any outward provocations. "The vile person will speak villany, and his heart will work iniquity," Isaiah 32:6; and this he doth as the "liberal deviseth liberal things," verse 8. From his own disposition and inclination, he is contriving in his thoughts how to act according to them.

So the unclean person hath two sorts of thoughts with respect unto the satisfaction of his lust: —

First, such as are occasioned in his mind by the external objects of it. Hereunto stage plays, revelings, dancings, with the society of bold persons, persons of corrupt communication, do contribute their wicked service. For the avoidance of this snare, Job "made a covenant with his eyes," chap. 31:1; and our Savior gives that holy declaration of the evil of it, Matthew 5:28. But he hath an habitual spring of these thoughts in himself, constantly inclining and disposing him thereunto. Hence the apostle Peter tells us that such persons "have eyes full of an adulteress, that cannot cease from sin," 2 Peter 2:14.

 

[Iconoclast]

Paul's main thought in Ch 8 is the believers position of no condemnation, but, as he did in Ch 7, Paul contrasts the position of the non-believer. In verses 5-8 we see this contrast. In this passage I like the NLT.

Those who are dominated by the sinful nature think about sinful things, but those who are controlled by the Holy Spirit think about things that please the Spirit. So letting your sinful nature control your mind leads to death. But letting the Spirit control your mind leads to life and peace. For the sinful nature is always hostile to God. It never did obey God’s laws, and it never will. That’s why those who are still under the control of their sinful nature can never please God.
~ Romans 8:5-8

Yes..in light of who we are in Christ, We are to think right thoughts about how being spiritually minded affects our conduct.
It is the next step from Paul's rhetorical question in Romans 6:1.
Shall we continue in sin?...NO

Now Paul by the Spirit highlights how by God's grace we can view all of our remaining portion of life here by applying this treasure of spiritual thoughts to those we interact with.

He is going to make the case that this is what Jesus meant by;
37 In the last day, that great day of the feast, Jesus stood and cried, saying, If any man thirst, let him come unto me, and drink.

38 He that believeth on me, as the scripture hath said, out of his belly shall flow rivers of living water.

39 (But this spake he of the Spirit, which they that believe on him should receive: for the Holy Ghost was not yet given; because that Jesus was not yet glorified.)

 

[Iconoclast]

From hence doth our Savior give us the great description of spiritual life. It is "a well of living water springing up into everlasting life," John 4:10,12. The Spirit, with his graces residing in the heart of a believer, is a well of living water. Nor is it such a well as, content with its own fullness, doth not of its own accord, without any instrument or pains in drawing, send out its refreshing waters, as it is with most wells, though of living water; for this is spoken by our Savior in answer and opposition unto that objection of the woman, upon his mention of giving living water, verse 10: "Sir," saith she, "thou hast nothing to draw with, and the well is deep; whence wilt thou have this water?" verse 11. "True," saith he, "such is the nature of this well and water, dead, earthly things, — they are of no use, unless we have instruments, lines and buckets, to draw withal. But the living water which I shall give is of another nature. It is not water to be kept in a pit or cistern without us, whence it must be drawn; but it is within us, and that not dead and useless, but continually springing up unto the use and refreshment of them that have it." For so is it with the principle of the new creature, of the new nature, the Spirit and his graces, in the hearts of them that do believe, — it doth of itself and from itself, without any external influence on it, incline and dispose the whole soul unto spiritual act-ings that tend unto eternal life. Such are the thoughts of them that are spiritually minded. They arise from the inward principle, inclination, and disposition of the soul, — are the bubblings of this well of living water; they are the mindings of the Spirit. So our Savior describes them, Matthew 12:35, "A good man out of the good treasure of the heart bringeth forth good things." First, the man is good; as he said before, "Make the tree good, or the fruit cannot be good," verse 33. He is made so by grace, in the change and renovation of his nature; for in ourselves we are every way evil. This good man hath a treasure in his heart.

So all men have; as the next words are, "The evil man out of the evil treasure of the heart." And this is the great difference that is between men in this world. Every man hath a treasure in his heart; that is, a prevailing, inexhaustible principle of all his actings and operations.others it is evil; that is, the prevailing principle in the heart, which carries along with it its dispositions and inclinations, is in some good and gracious, in others it is evil. Out of his good treasure a good man bringeth forth good things. The first opening of it, the first bringing of it forth, is by these thoughts.

The thoughts that arise out of the heart are of the same nature with the treasure that is in it. If the thoughts that naturally arise and spring up in us are for the most part vain, foolish, sensual, earthly, selfish, such is the treasure that is in our hearts, and such are we; but where the thoughts that thus naturally proceed from the treasure that is in the heart are spiritual and holy, it is an argument that we are spiritually minded.

 

[JesusFan]

Paul's main thought in Ch 8 is the believers position of no condemnation, but, as he did in Ch 7, Paul contrasts the position of the non-believer. In verses 5-8 we see this contrast. In this passage I like the NLT.

Those who are dominated by the sinful nature think about sinful things, but those who are controlled by the Holy Spirit think about things that please the Spirit. So letting your sinful nature control your mind leads to death. But letting the Spirit control your mind leads to life and peace. For the sinful nature is always hostile to God. It never did obey God’s laws, and it never will. That’s why those who are still under the control of their sinful nature can never please God.
~ Romans 8:5-8

Is he not warning though we who are saved to keep putting to death thinking and acting out that the flesh still demands us to be now doing?

 

[JesusFan]

1 John 1:6-7. If we say that we have fellowship with Him and yet walk in the darkness, we lie and do not practice the truth; but if we walk in the Light as He Himself is in the Light, we have fellowship with one another, and the blood of Jesus His Son cleanses us from all sin.

Can we at times act though out of the flesh and be "carnal minded?"

 

[JonC]

Can we at times act though out of the flesh and be "carnal minded?"

When we are walking in darkness (in the flesh, opposed to God).

Scripture gives us very stern warnings (as in Romans 8). There are absolutely no assurances of salvation to a professing believer who "walks in darkness". This is why I urge people on this forum not to insult others. When they do they are not assured of their faith.

Does this mean they are not saved? No. God knows their salvation, even more than the professing believer. But we consider them unsaved because of their "fruits" of the flesh. We hope for repentance, and we all know we have been in the same place as we are not yet perfected.

There are some here that I believe are lost - not because of their doctrine but because of their behavior towards others and their unrepentant demeanor. I choose not to engage them.

This is not because I am perfect (I am not, I'm a work in progress...probably the worst of God's children) but because they seem unaware (God disciplines His own). I can certainly insult others, but I am convinced of that sin. So I engage believers and encourage them to be obedient even in areas where I have stumbled.

This is what John Owen wrote about - we are to be killing sin or sin will be killing us.

There are people I ignore because, while I will not question their individual salvation on this board, all evidence points to their damnation. We pray for them, but we are not to interact with them as if they are a part of the brethern.

In other words, I understand people being hostile to opposing positions. That is fair. But some are hostile to Christians who hold opposing positions. That is walking in darkness (per Romans 8).

Those are to be ingnored.

Does that make sense?

 

[kyredneck]

KISS

Micah 6:8

Ecclesiastes 7:16-17

Matthew 7:12

Romans 13:8-10

[add] ...as opposed to something as complex as this: jonathan_edwards_resolutions.pdf (battlefocused.org)

 

[AustinC]

When we are walking in darkness (in the flesh, opposed to God).

Scripture gives us very stern warnings (as in Romans 8). There are absolutely no assurances of salvation to a professing believer who "walks in darkness". This is why I urge people on this forum not to insult others. When they do they are not assured of their faith.

Does this mean they are not saved? No. God knows their salvation, even more than the professing believer. But we consider them unsaved because of their "fruits" of the flesh. We hope for repentance, and we all know we have been in the same place as we are not yet perfected.

There are some here that I believe are lost - not because of their doctrine but because of their behavior towards others and their unrepentant demeanor. I choose not to engage them.

This is not because I am perfect (I am not, I'm a work in progress...probably the worst of God's children) but because they seem unaware (God disciplines His own). I can certainly insult others, but I am convinced of that sin. So I engage believers and encourage them to be obedient even in areas where I have stumbled.

This is what John Owen wrote about - we are to be killing sin or sin will be killing us.

There are people I ignore because, while I will not question their individual salvation on this board, all evidence points to their damnation. We pray for them, but we are not to interact with them as if they are a part of the brethern.

In other words, I understand people being hostile to opposing positions. That is fair. But some are hostile to Christians who hold opposing positions. That is walking in darkness (per Romans 8).

Those are to be ingnored.

Does that make sense?

JonC, do you believe yourself lost because of your behavior?
In your post, here, you seem to skirt the free-will line that one can lose salvation and gain salvation by our works. But, you don’t quite say that. It is merely implied. You do judge peoples posting at the BB and declare them unsaved by virtue of their posting responses, but you don't seem to judge yourself or your posts in a similar fashion.
Therefore, I take what you posted here as mere surmising and not of much or any value to understanding Romans 8:6.
Paul is contrasting those who are seeking justification by works with those being justified by faith.

Those who are seeking justification by works are seeking it by the flesh. They will die in the flesh and not be justified. Those who are being justified by faith are in the Spirit and receive life and peace.

The idea that our flesh can vacillate and determine our salvation is not being taught in Romans 8:6.

For God has done what the law, weakened by the flesh, could not do. By sending his own Son in the likeness of sinful flesh and for sin, he condemned sin in the flesh, in order that the righteous requirement of the law might be fulfilled in us, who walk not according to the flesh but according to the Spirit. For those who live according to the flesh set their minds on the things of the flesh, but those who live according to the Spirit set their minds on the things of the Spirit. For to set the mind on the flesh is death, but to set the mind on the Spirit is life and peace. For the mind that is set on the flesh is hostile to God, for it does not submit to God’s law; indeed, it cannot. Those who are in the flesh cannot please God. You, however, are not in the flesh but in the Spirit, if in fact the Spirit of God dwells in you. Anyone who does not have the Spirit of Christ does not belong to him.
~ Romans 8:3-9

 

[JonC]

.
The idea that our flesh can vacillate and determine our salvation is not being taught in Romans 8:6.

I never said that our flesh can validate and determine our salvation.

What I am saying is that the mind set on the flesh is death.

IMHO Scripture is very clear that we know we are saved - that we have life - because we love one another. Those who do not abide in death.


As far as losing ones salvation goes, I am not sure where you get the idea I skirt the idea we may be saved and then lose our salvation. I'm saying those who do not love the brethern are not saved (not that they were at one time).

 

[DaveXR650]

Can we at times act though out of the flesh and be "carnal minded?"

I think we can. If you start reading this work by Owen he gets into that very quickly. We are not perfect for sure and we do go through times of failure. What JonC said is true too:

Scripture gives us very stern warnings (as in Romans 8). There are absolutely no assurances of salvation to a professing believer who "walks in darkness".

One thing no Puritan writer ever did was give the kind of blanket, presumptuous assurance that we modern day Christians often are taught - where we can make some kind of profession and then sin or not sin as we choose knowing all the while that we are safe. This is very confusing for modern Christians because the Puritans very much believed in the perseverance of the saints, but they believed that being concerned and worrying that you are on a wrong path or engaging in some sin and correcting that was part of the "perseverance". Assurance of your salvation is not always present according to the Puritans. But you have to be careful because assurance of salvation is part of saving faith and there are some sensitive, good Christians who I have seen actually get depressed when they read too much of the Puritans.

 

[percho]

O wretched man that I am! who shall deliver me from the body of this death? I thank God through Jesus Christ our Lord. So then with the mind I myself serve the law of God; but with the flesh the law of sin Rom 7:24,25

And the continuing story as to how that takes place. Chapter 8

 

[JonC]

I think we can. If you start reading this work by Owen he gets into that very quickly. We are not perfect for sure and we do go through times of failure. What JonC said is true too:


One thing no Puritan writer ever did was give the kind of blanket, presumptuous assurance that we modern day Christians often are taught - where we can make some kind of profession and then sin or not sin as we choose knowing all the while that we are safe. This is very confusing for modern Christians because the Puritans very much believed in the perseverance of the saints, but they believed that being concerned and worrying that you are on a wrong path or engaging in some sin and correcting that was part of the "perseverance". Assurance of your salvation is not always present according to the Puritans. But you have to be careful because assurance of salvation is part of saving faith and there are some sensitive, good Christians who I have seen actually get depressed when they read too much of the Puritans.

I would put it this way - what the disobedient Christian forfeits is not salvation but assurance.

We are told to test ourselves to see if we are among the elect. Any failure will be short lived as God disciplines His children. This is where repentance comes in.

As far as Puritan theology goes, they often devolved into legalism and persecution. It is strange because they were also persecuted. The Reformed church persecuted the Puritans. But the Puritans became persecutors of the Quakers. I always found this cycle a bit strange.

In a side note, the Puritans were not Reformed. They adopted Reformed theology but Puritianism was to reform the Church of England (the Puritans were to the Church of England what the Reformers were to the Roman Catholic Church). They did not come out of the Reformation. They are post-Reformation.


Anyway, I enjoy history. I like reading the works of the Puritians (especially Puritian poetry). But I cannot say Owen really helps with Romans 8. He writes much, and I am glad some find his writings helpful in understanding or applying Scripture to their lives, but I see nothing gained that is not already in the passage itself.

 

[Iconoclast]

JonC,

Anyway, I enjoy history. I like reading the works of the Puritians (especially Puritian poetry)

.

Interesting, but this thread is about Romans 8:6, not JonC history musings, that might be an idea for a new thread.

But I cannot say Owen really helps with Romans 8.

We know already you believe Owen is not relevant for our day. Some us think he is a much needed source, so we intend to press on.

He writes much, and I am glad some find his writings helpful in understanding or applying Scripture to their lives, but I see nothing gained that is not already in the passage itself.

We know..you just seem to post the verse and explain nothing.
You believe the verse will teach us all by itself.
You are welcome to your view, but if you do not mind, we will take a look.