Romans 8:6.....What is it getting at.

[Iconoclast]

Let's get back to the OP>
Where it is not thus with our thoughts, they give no such evidence as that inquired after. Men may have thoughts of spiritual things, and that many of them, and that frequently, which do not arise from this principle, but may be resolved into two other causes; —
1. Inward force;

2. Outward occasions. 1. Inward force, as it may be called. This is by convictions. Convictions put a kind of a force upon the mind, or an impression that causeth it to act contrary unto its own habitual disposition and inclination. It is in the nature of water to descend; but apply an instrument unto it that shall make a compression of it and force it unto a vent, it will fly upwards vehemently, as if that were its natural motion. But so soon as the force of the impression ceaseth, it returns immediately unto its own proper tendency, descending towards its center.

So is it with men’s thoughts ofttimes. They are earthly, — their natural course and motion is downwards unto the earth and the things thereof; but when any efficacious conviction presseth on the mind, it forceth the egress of its thoughts upwards towards heavenly things. It will think much and frequently of them, as if that were their proper motion and course; but so soon as the power of conviction decays or wears off, that the mind is no more sensible of its force and impression, the thoughts of it return again unto their old course and track, as the water tends downwards. This state and frame is graphically described,

Psalm 128:34-37, "When he slew them, then they sought him: and they returned and inquired early after God. And they remembered that God was their rock, and the high God their redeemer. Nevertheless they did flatter him with their mouth, and they lied unto him with their tongues. For their heart was not right with him, neither were they steadfast in his covenant."

Men in troubles, dangers, sickness, fears of death, or under effectual conviction of sin from the preaching of the word, will endeavor to think and meditate on spiritual things; yea, they will be greatly troubled that they cannot think of them more than they do, and esteem it their folly that they think of any thing else: but as freedom and deliverance do approach, so these thoughts decay and disappear; the mind will not be compelled to give place unto them any more. The prophet gives the reason of it, Jeremiah 13:23, "Can the Ethiopian change his skin, or the leopard his spots? then may ye also do good, that are accustomed to do evil."

 

[Iconoclast]

Water that riseth and floweth from a living spring runneth equally and constantly, unless it be obstructed or diverted by some violent opposition; but that which is from thunder-showers runs furiously for a season, but is quickly dried up. So are those spiritual thoughts which arise from a prevalent internal principle of grace in the heart; they are even and constant, unless an interruption be put upon them for a season by temptations. But those which are excited by the thunder of convictions, however their streams may be filled for a season, they quickly dry up and utterly decay.

2. Such thoughts may arise in the minds of men not spiritually minded, from outward means and occasions. Such I intend as are indeed useful, yea, appointed of God for this end among others, that they may ingenerate and stir up holy thoughts and affections in us. But there is a difference in their use and operation. In some they excite the inward principle of the mind to act in holy thoughts, according unto its own sanctified disposition and prevalent affections. This is their proper end and use. In others they occasionally suggest such thoughts unto the minds of men, which spring only from the notions of the things proposed unto them. With respect unto this end also they are of singular use unto the souls of men. Howbeit such thoughts do not prove men to be spiritually minded.

 

[Iconoclast]

Chapter Three


Outward means and occasions of such thoughts of spiritual things as do not prove men to be spiritually minded — Preaching of the word — Exercise of gifts — Prayer — How we may know whether our thoughts of spiritual things in prayer are truly spiritual thoughts, proving us to be spiritually minded.

1. SUCH a means is the preaching of the word itself. It is observed concerning many in the gospel, that they heard it willingly, received it with joy, and did many things gladly, upon the preaching of it; and we see the same thing exemplified in multitudes every day. But none of these things can be without many thoughts in the minds of such persons about the spiritual things of the word; for they are the effects of such thoughts, and, being wrought in the minds of men, will produce more of the same nature: yet were they all hypocrites concerning whom these things are spoken, and were never spiritually minded. The cause of this miscarriage is given us by our Savior, Matthew 13:20, 21, "He that received the seed into stony places, the same is he that heareth the word, and anon with joy receiveth it; yet hath he not root in himself, but dureth for a while."

The good thoughts they have proceed not from any principle in themselves. Neither their affections nor their thoughts of these things have any internal root whereon they should grow. So is it with many who live under the present dispensation of the gospel. They have thoughts of spiritual things continually suggested unto them, and they do abide with them more or less, according as they are affected: for I speak not of them who are either despisers of what they hear, or wayside hearers, who understand nothing of what they hear, and immediately lose all sense of it, all thoughts about it; but I speak of them who attend with some diligence, and receive the word with some joy. These insensibly grow in knowledge and understanding, and therefore cannot be without some thoughts of spiritual things. Howbeit for the most part they are, as was said, but like unto waters that run after a shower of rain. They pour out themselves, as if they proceeded from some strong, living spring, whereas indeed they have none at all. When once the waters of the shower are spent, their channel is dry, there is nothing in it but stones and dirt. When the doctrine of the word falls on such persons as showers of rain, it gives a course, sometimes greater, sometimes less, unto their thoughts towards spiritual things; but they have not a well of water in them springing up into everlasting life. Wherefore, after a while their minds are dried up from such thoughts; nothing remains in them but earth, and that perhaps foul and dirty.

 

[Iconoclast]

It must be observed, that the best of men, the most holy and spiritually minded, may have, nay, ought to have, their thoughts of spiritual things excited, multiplied, and confirmed, by the preaching of the word. It is one end of its dispensation, one principal use of it in them by whom it is received. And it hath this effect two ways: —
(1.) As it is the spiritual food of the soul, whereby its principle of life and grace is maintained and strengthened. The more this is done, the more shall we thrive in being spiritually minded.
(2.) As it adminstereth occasion unto the exercise of grace; for, proposing the proper object of faith, love, fear, trust, reverence, unto the soul, it draws forth all those graces into exercise. Wherefore, although the vigorous actings of spiritual thoughts be occasional from the word, be more under and after the preaching of it than at other times, it is no more but what ariseth from the nature and use of the ordinance by God’s own appointment, nor is it any evidence that those with whom it is so are not spiritually minded,
A man may read a long prayer that expresseth spiritual things, and yet never have one spiritual thought arise in his mind about them

 

[Van]

Van stop posting your made-up Greek translations on here, it shows your ignorance of the language!

here is the verse, now show how you get "mind set on the" from?

τὸ γὰρ φρόνημα τῆς σαρκὸς θάνατος, τὸ δὲ φρόνημα τοῦ πνεύματος ζωὴ καὶ εἰρήνη·

LOL, yet another false charge, from those whose mind has been set in concrete...

 

[Iconoclast]

It is an ancient complaint, that spiritual things are filled with great obscurity and difficulty; and it is true. Not that there is any such thing in themselves, for they all come forth from the Father of lights, and are full of light, order, beauty, and wisdom; and light and order are the only means whereby any thing makes a discovery of itself. But the ground of all darkness and difficulty in these things lies in ourselves. We can more clearly and steadily see and behold the moon and the stars than we can the sun when it shines in its greatest luster. It is not because there is more light in the moon and stars than in the sun, but because the light of the sun is greater than our visive faculty can directly bear and behold.

So we can more clearly discover the truth and distinct nature of things moral and natural, than we can of things that are heavenly and spiritual. See John 3:12. Not that there is more substance or reality in them, but because the ability of our understanding is more suited unto the comprehension of them; the others are above us. We know but in part, and our minds are liable to be hindered and disordered in their apprehension of things heavenly and spiritual by ignorance, temptations, and prejudices of all sorts. In nothing are men more subject unto mistakes than in the application of things unto themselves, and a judgment of their interest in them. Fear, self-love, with the prevalency of temptations and corruptions, do all engage their powers to darken the light of the mind and to pervert its judgment. In no case doth the deceitfulness of the heart, or of sin (which is all one), more act itself. Hence multitudes say "Peace" to themselves to whom God doth not speak peace; and some who are children of light do yet walk in darkness. Hence is that fervent prayer of the apostle for help in this case, Ephesians 1:15-19. There is also a great similitude between temporary faith and that which is saving and durable, and between gifts and graces in their operations; which is that that is under present consideration. It is acknowledged, therefore, that without the especial light and conduct of the Spirit of God, no man can make such a judgment of his state and his actions as shall be a stable foundation of giving glory to God and of obtaining peace unto his own soul; and therefore the greatest part of mankind do constantly deceive themselves in these things

 

[Van]

Note that scripture teaches fallen people can understand the attributes of God, thus some spiritual things can be understood by fallen people.

 

[Iconoclast]

It is an ancient complaint, that spiritual things are filled with great obscurity and difficulty; and it is true. Not that there is any such thing in themselves, for they all come forth from the Father of lights, and are full of light, order, beauty, and wisdom; and light and order are the only means whereby any thing makes a discovery of itself. But the ground of all darkness and difficulty in these things lies in ourselves. We can more clearly and steadily see and behold the moon and the stars than we can the sun when it shines in its greatest luster. It is not because there is more light in the moon and stars than in the sun, but because the light of the sun is greater than our visive faculty can directly bear and behold.

So we can more clearly discover the truth and distinct nature of things moral and natural, than we can of things that are heavenly and spiritual. See John 3:12.

Not that there is more substance or reality in them, but because the ability of our understanding is more suited unto the comprehension of them; the others are above us. We know but in part, and our minds are liable to be hindered and disordered in their apprehension of things heavenly and spiritual by ignorance, temptations, and prejudices of all sorts. In nothing are men more subject unto mistakes than in the application of things unto themselves, and a judgment of their interest in them.

Fear, self-love, with the prevalency of temptations and corruptions, do all engage their powers to darken the light of the mind and to pervert its judgment. In no case doth the deceitfulness of the heart, or of sin (which is all one), more act itself. Hence multitudes say "Peace" to themselves to whom God doth not speak peace; and some who are children of light do yet walk in darkness. Hence is that fervent prayer of the apostle for help in this case, Ephesians 1:15-19.

There is also a great similitude between temporary faith and that which is saving and durable, and between gifts and graces in their operations; which is that that is under present consideration. It is acknowledged, therefore, that without the especial light and conduct of the Spirit of God, no man can make such a judgment of his state and his actions as shall be a stable foundation of giving glory to God and of obtaining peace unto his own soul; and therefore the greatest part of mankind do constantly deceive themselves in these things

 

[Iconoclast]

Note that scripture teaches fallen people can understand the attributes of God, thus some spiritual things can be understood by fallen people.

Not really.
The natural man has fleshly understanding as he does not have the Spirit of God.
He can be religious, but not have a saving understanding.
A quick glance at rom8:7-9 squashes that idea.

 

[Van]

Not really.
The natural man has fleshly understanding as he does not have the Spirit of God.
He can be religious, but not have a saving understanding.
A quick glance at rom8:7-9 squashes that idea.

Yet another false claim, another "taint so" post.

Does a verse say the lost cannot have faith in the truth, or does 2 Thessalonians 2:13 tell us God chooses those He determines have faith in the truth? There is no support anywhere in scripture for the false teaching that the lost (men of flesh) cannot respond to spiritual milk. OTOH, Paul tells us "men of flesh" can respond to spiritual milk. (See 1 Corinthians 3:1-3)

What does Romans 8:6 (or 8:7 or 8:27) actually say?

Romans 8:6
For the mind set G5427 on the flesh is death, but the mind set G5427 on the Spirit is life and peace,

Romans 8:7
because the mind set G5427 on the flesh is hostile toward God; for it does not subject itself to the law of God, for it is not even able to do so,

Romans 8:27
and He who searches the hearts knows what the mind set G5427 on the Spirit is, because He intercedes for the saints according to the will of God.

The above consistently translates "phronēma (G5427) and "ho" (G3588) as "mind set on the." The idea is if we place our minds on fleshly desires or spiritual things, the result is hostility toward God, or peace with God.

And the false doctrine taught by Calvinism is that the lost are unable to set their minds on any of the spiritual things. However, Paul teaches men of flesh (the lost) can understand and grasp spiritual milk, the fundamentals of the gospel. See 1 Corinthians 3:1-3. The lost can understand the attributes of God (Romans 2) thus the often regurgitated screed is bogus.

John 3:16 says everyone believing into Him will not perish. Thus God indicates the lost are able to believe, thus able to set their minds on gospel fundamentals. Those not yet born anew are not indwelt, so they cannot set their minds on their indwelt spirit, but can set their minds of some spiritual things, the fundamentals of the gospel. And of course, those that have been indwelt can set their minds on the Spirit, because they have become saints and Christ knows their mind set and intercedes for them.

 

[SavedByGrace]

Note that scripture teaches fallen people can understand the attributes of God, thus some spiritual things can be understood by fallen people.

as I said before, you DON'T know what you are talking about!

WHY don't you post some Bible verses to support your THEORIES?

I have one for you

1 Corinthians 2:14

But a natural person does not accept the things of the Spirit of God, for they are foolishness to him; and he cannot understand them, because they are spiritually discerned

here is another, Romans 3:10-11

"as it is written: “None is righteous, no, not one; no one understands; no one seeks for God."

 

[Iconoclast]

as I said before, you DON'T know what you are talking about!

WHY don't you post some Bible verses to support your THEORIES?

I have one for you

1 Corinthians 2:14

But a natural person does not accept the things of the Spirit of God, for they are foolishness to him; and he cannot understand them, because they are spiritually discerned

here is another, Romans 3:10-11

"as it is written: “None is righteous, no, not one; no one understands; no one seeks for God."

SBG,
You spotted this falsehood from across the ocean!

 

[Van]

as I said before, you DON'T know what you are talking about!
WHY don't you post some Bible verses to support your THEORIES?
I have one for you
1 Corinthians 2:14
But a natural person does not accept the things of the Spirit of God, for they are foolishness to him; and he cannot understand them, because they are spiritually discerned
here is another, Romans 3:10-11
"as it is written: “None is righteous, no, not one; no one understands; no one seeks for God."

Once again we get the subject change (a false charge aimed at me) and verses that demonstrate Calvinism is false.

Does 1 Corinthians 2:14 say a natural (lost) person does not accept any of the things of the Spirit? Nope. The lost can accept Spiritual Milk (1 Corinthians 3:1-3).

Did anyone say a natural (lost) person is righteous? Nope. Does Romans 3:10-11 says no one ever seeks God? Nope

Calvinism is based on reading into scripture what it does not say, and then nullifying other verses by claiming they do not mean what the say, such as "they would have repented."

 

[Van]

SBG,
You spotted this falsehood from across the ocean!

Gossip from Calvinists demonstrates all we need to know about Calvinism.

 

[SavedByGrace]

Gossip from Calvinists demonstrates all we need to know about Calvinism.

I am NOT a Calvinist!

 

[kyredneck]

LOL, yet another false charge, from those whose mind has been set in concrete...

Cinder block calls stone grey....

 

[Iconoclast]

Gossip from Calvinists demonstrates all we need to know about Calvinism.

Perhaps you could actually address vs.6....that is what this thread is about.
Are you in agreement with the verses offered.Do you find the explanations helpful?
Did you take the time to read what was offered?
Many older writers took the time to be exhaustive in uncovering what a verse offered.They used the bible as a complete revelation for us to use to the max.

 

[JonC]

JonC,

.

Interesting, but this thread is about Romans 8:6, not JonC history musings, that might be an idea for a new thread.



We know already you believe Owen is not relevant for our day. Some us think he is a much needed source, so we intend to press on.




We know..you just seem to post the verse and explain nothing.
You believe the verse will teach us all by itself.
You are welcome to your view, but if you do not mind, we will take a look.

Brother,

Please look again at my post. By your response it looks like you read it as hostile. It was not.

I have nothing against people reading John Owen. If that helps you (or anybody else) understand Romans 8 then by all means read Owen.

You seem trapped (or focused in) on my repeating what theologians have traditionally held - that theology must be current. You have misunderstood what I said (you took it, by mistake, out of context).

Likewise you seem to have misunderstood my comment about a lack of benefit reading Owen's comments on Romans 8. I said that I do not see any benefit, but his writing may help others understand the passage. To me, it is a very clear passage.

Owen does explore application, but we could here as well.

What does the passage tell us?

Romans 8:6 For the mind set on the flesh is death, but the mind set on the Spirit is life and peace.

To me the verse makes sense. The mind set on the flesh is death, but the mind set on the Spirit is life and peace. I don't understand the difficulty you (or others) may have with Romans 8 not being clear in itself. But that's just me. It makes sense to me.

The mind set on the flesh is death, but the mind set on the Spirit is life and peace.

What about other passages?

We know we have passed into life because we love the brethern.

Apply this today. How many have their minds set on the flesh? How many do not love the brethern?

Apply this to the BB. How many look to insult other people? These have their minds set on the flesh, which is death.

It is good to look at how Christians applied Scripture in the past, but merely understanding how they applied Scripture is of no value if Scripture is not applied to the present.

 

[JonC]

Let's look at what it is to have ones mind set on the flesh:

For you were called to freedom, brethren; only do not turn your freedom into an opportunity for the flesh, but through love serve one another. For the whole Law is fulfilled in one word, in the statement, “You shall love your neighbor as yourself.”

But if you bite and devour one another, take care that you are not consumed by one another. But I say, walk by the Spirit, and you will not carry out the desire of the flesh.

For the flesh sets its desire against the Spirit, and the Spirit against the flesh; for these are in opposition to one another, so that you may not do the things that you please.But if you are led by the Spirit, you are not under the Law.

Now the deeds of the flesh are evident, which are: immorality, impurity, sensuality, idolatry, sorcery, enmities, strife, jealousy, outbursts of anger, disputes, dissensions, factions, envying, drunkenness, carousing, and things like these, of which I forewarn you, just as I have forewarned you, that those who practice such things will not inherit the kingdom of God.

But the fruit of the Spirit is love, joy, peace, patience, kindness, goodness, faithfulness, gentleness, self-control; against such things there is no law.

Now those who belong to Christ Jesus have crucified the flesh with its passions and desires.

If we live by the Spirit, let us also walk by the Spirit. Let us not become boastful, challenging one another, envying one another.


This board can bear witness of our walk, whether in the Spirit or the flesh. Do we respond with patience, with kindness, in love? Or do we respond with insults, striving against a brother?

Members should read Scripture - NOT just try to understand words but to apply God's Word to their lives. They should judge their conduct on this board. They should test themselves to see if they are indeed numbered among the elect.

We bear fruit. But what does the fruit we beat tell us about our walk? Will we inherit the kingdom of God?

Just knowing about God is not enough.

 

[Van]

I am NOT a Calvinist!

Gossip involves disparaging others behind their backs.