Romans 8:8

[Winman]

You forgot one little phrase - "you were FREE from righteousenss" and thus they were "servants" of unrighteousness. However, what is born of God is created in righteousness and true holiness and serves the law of God. However, that is not true of their unredeemed, unregenerated aspect - the flesh.

I didn't forget anything, this scripture says these persons were the servants of sin, but they obeyed the gospel from their heart. As a a result of obeying or believing the gospel they were made free from sin and became servants of righteousness.

This scripture utterly refutes Calvinism. It shows the unregenerate can obey the gospel, and that AFTER obeying the gospel they are made free from sin and become servants of righteousness.

You can deny all you want, but this scripture easily refutes Calvinism.

 

[quantumfaith]

He has a dual nature. However, he has not power in and of himself, or his own will power to over rule indwelling sin, or the law of sin operating in the old nature. His only escape from the character of the fallen nature defined in Romans 7:18-20 and 8:7-8 is by faith to "yeild" to the Holy Spirit (Rom. 6) and to trust in the indwelling Spirit to mortify the fleshly nature (Rom. 8:12-13).

So let me understand, in our life as believers, when we are tempted or are "approaching" sin, we have no "personal" say so in rejecting that sin, we only reject it because the Spirit does it for us? Is that a correct observation?

 

[The Biblicist]

I didn't forget anything, this scripture says these persons were the servants of sin, but they obeyed the gospel from their heart. As a a result of obeying or believing the gospel they were made free from sin and became servants of righteousness.

This scripture utterly refutes Calvinism. It shows the unregenerate can obey the gospel, and that AFTER obeying the gospel they are made free from sin and become servants of righteousness.

You can deny all you want, but this scripture easily refutes Calvinism.

The flaw in your logic is the transition point between being free from righteousness and being free from sin - regeneration or the life of Christ described in Romans 6:6-11 is presented as the transition point.

 

[The Biblicist]

So let me understand, in our life as believers, when we are tempted or are "approaching" sin, we have no "personal" say so in rejecting that sin, we only reject it because the Spirit does it for us? Is that a correct observation?

No sir that is not my position. If you read Romans 7:18 the kink is not a willingness to do what is right by the believer but the lack of power to make that willingness action. As long as the believer attempts to use merely his own will to confront the indweling law of sin he will experience Romans 7:19-20 every single time. He has another option rather than his own will power and that is the power of the indwelling Spirit of God in confronting indwelling power of sin (Rom. 8:12-13). The ONLY time you succeed in glorifying God through your body is when you walk "in the Spirit" which is "God working in you both to WILL and TO DO of His good pleasure" and thus He gets all the glory for everything you do that honors God.

 

[Winman]

The flaw in your logic is the transition point between being free from righteousness and being free from sin - regeneration or the life of Christ described in Romans 6:6-11 is presented as the transition point.

There is no flaw in what I said, I am quoting scripture for what it says.

Rom 6:17 But God be thanked, that ye were the servants of sin, but ye have obeyed from the heart that form of doctrine which was delivered you.
18 Being then made free from sin, ye became the servants of righteousness.

This scripture is clear as day, Paul said these persons were servants of sin, but they have obeyed the gospel. It is upon obeying the gospel that they were made free of sin and became servants of righteousness.

You (and Calvinism) attempts to teach the exact opposite, you attempt to teach that a person is regenerated to become a servant to righteousness and then afterward you obey the gospel.

I've said it a hundred times and I will say it again, Calvinism teaches the EXACT OPPOSITE of what scriptures truly say. Take heed.

 

[The Biblicist]

There is no flaw in what I said, I am quoting scripture for what it says.

Rom 6:17 But God be thanked, that ye were the servants of sin, but ye have obeyed from the heart that form of doctrine which was delivered you.
18 Being then made free from sin, ye became the servants of righteousness.

This scripture is clear as day, Paul said these persons were servants of sin, but they have obeyed the gospel. It is upon obeying the gospel that they were made free of sin and became servants of righteousness.

You (and Calvinism) attempts to teach the exact opposite, you attempt to teach that a person is regenerated to become a servant to righteousness and then afterward you obey the gospel.

It is my fault for not making myself clear. Obedience from the heart in my system of thought is the inseparable to regeneration as described in 2 Cor. 4:6 and John 17:3 whereby the "substance" of saving faith - the saving knowledge of Christ - which is the basis for "hope" (Heb. 11:1) is what God imparts by a divine fiat or act of creation (Mt. 16:17; 2 Cor. 4:6) and it is that REVELATION within or that internalized REVELATORY KNOWLEDGE is eternal life.

The difference between you and I is that you believe the fallen heart or old heart is enabled by the gospel to receive it, whereas I believe God does not enable the old heart to believe but by direct divine revelation of Christ to the soul of man IS eternal life or regeneration and creation of a new nature or new creature created in "righteousness and true holiness" which is the servant of righteousness. Heart obedience to the gospel is regeneration in my system of interpretation - 1 Thes. 1:4-5; Jn. 17:2-3; 2 Cor. 4:6

 

[Winman]

It is my fault for not making myself clear. Obedience from the heart in my system of thought is the inseparable to regeneration as described in 2 Cor. 4:6 and John 17:3 whereby the "substance" of saving faith - the saving knowledge of Christ - which is the basis for "hope" (Heb. 11:1) is what God imparts by a divine fiat or act of creation (Mt. 16:17; 2 Cor. 4:6) and it is that REVELATION within or that internalized REVELATORY KNOWLEDGE is eternal life.

The difference between you and I is that you believe the fallen heart or old heart is enabled by the gospel to receive it, whereas I believe God does not enable the old heart to believe but by direct divine revelation of Christ to the soul of man IS eternal life or regeneration and creation of a new nature or new creature created in "righteousness and true holiness" which is the servant of righteousness. Heart obedience to the gospel is regeneration in my system of interpretation - 1 Thes. 1:4-5; Jn. 17:2-3; 2 Cor. 4:6

You remind me of what Harry S. Truman once said,

If you can't convince them, confuse them.

Well, let me say, I find nothing you say convincing at all.

I actually understand what you are saying, but I believe it is easily refuted. The day of Pentacost clearly shows your view wrong.

On the day of Pentacost, did God supernaturally regenerate the 3000 who were saved and give them the ability to understand the Galilaean language that Peter, the apostles, and the 120 disciples spoke in?

NO, that is not what happened at all. We are not told of any supernatural work performed on these 3000 unbelievers. NOTHING.

It was upon Peter, the apostles, and the 120 disciples that God poured out his Spirit and gave them the supernatural ability to instantly speak in I believe at least 16 different languages.

Acts 2:4 And they were all filled with the Holy Ghost, and began to speak with other tongues, as the Spirit gave them utterance.

Again, God did not regenerate the unregenerate unbelievers at Pentacost, he performed a supernatural work on the believers only.

Now Peter, the apostles, and the disciples could easily speak to these Jews from many different nations in their native language.

Acts 2:6 Now when this was noised abroad, the multitude came together, and were confounded, because that every man heard them speak in his own language.
7 And they were all amazed and marvelled, saying one to another, Behold, are not all these which speak Galilaeans?
8 And how hear we every man in our own tongue, wherein we were born?
9 Parthians, and Medes, and Elamites, and the dwellers in Mesopotamia, and in Judaea, and Cappadocia, in Pontus, and Asia,
10 Phrygia, and Pamphylia, in Egypt, and in the parts of Libya about Cyrene, and strangers of Rome, Jews and proselytes,
11 Cretes and Arabians, we do hear them speak in our tongues the wonderful works of God.

Some might try to argue that God supernaturally gave these Jews from many nations the ability to understand Galilaean, but the text clearly shows the gift was poured on believers only, and that the gift was to speak in a tongue or language not previously known.

Now, did these Jews from other nations need anything supernatural performed on them to understand the gospel that Peter, the apostles, and disciples were preaching? NO, they could understand the gospel JUST AS THEY WERE.

And we know these men were deeply convicted by Peter and the others' preaching and that over 3000 believed on Jesus that day.

We also know that none of these 3000 new believers received the Holy Spirit until AFTER they repented and believed on Jesus (because only believers are baptized).

Acts 2:38 Then Peter said unto them, Repent, and be baptized every one of you in the name of Jesus Christ for the remission of sins, and ye shall receive the gift of the Holy Ghost.

Now, you are a smart man, surely you recognize that Pentacost completely overthrows your Reformed view. It shows that unregnerate men can believe the gospel just as they are, and that when they believe they receive the Holy Spirit and are regenerated.

This does not deny the supernatural, because the gospel itself is a supernatural message from God, delivered by Spirit filled servants of his, just as is shown on the day of Pentacost.

Now, if you were a real Biblicist, you would give this argument of mine deep consideration, seeing it is based squarely on scripture. I did not twist or wrest anything, as there is absolutely no need to do so.

Think about it.

 

[The Biblicist]

Well, let me say, I find nothing you say convincing at all.

I was not trying to convince you.

The day of Pentacost clearly shows your view wrong.

Regeneration preceded Pentecost (Jn. 3:6) and so Pentecost does not contradict anything I have stated.

I don't deny that God uses the preaching of the gospel. Indeed, I deny that God saves anyone without the gospel. Salvation occurs when the gospel comes in power and in the Spirit - as the effectual call as the creative word of God that calls light out of darkness. It happened on Pentecost and it has been the only way of salvation since the garden of Eden.

Heresy and a heretic is anyone and any doctrine that repudiates what the scriptures clearly and explicity demand is essential. Jesus PRIOR TO the cross said that a "man" (Not merely a Jew) MUST be born from above or born "of the Spirit" in addition to being born "of the flesh" (Jn. 3:3-6) or they cannot enter or see the kingdom of God. He rebuked Nicodemus as a teacher of the Old Testament for not understanding this but any and all self-proclaimed Bible teachers who repudiate this as a Old or New Testament reality should be rebuked and identified as what they are - heretics - as the fallen nature of man is the same before and after the cross and so is the solution - circumcision of the heart.

 

[Winman]

I was not trying to convince you.

Regeneration preceded Pentecost (Jn. 3:6) and so Pentecost does not contradict anything I have stated.

I don't deny that God uses the preaching of the gospel. Indeed, I deny that God saves anyone without the gospel. Salvation occurs when the gospel comes in power and in the Spirit - as the effectual call as the creative word of God that calls light out of darkness. It happened on Pentecost and it has been the only way of salvation since the garden of Eden.

Heresy and a heretic is anyone and any doctrine that repudiates what the scriptures clearly and explicity demand is essential. Jesus PRIOR TO the cross said that a "man" (Not merely a Jew) MUST be born from above or born "of the Spirit" in addition to being born "of the flesh" (Jn. 3:3-6) or they cannot enter or see the kingdom of God. He rebuked Nicodemus as a teacher of the Old Testament for not understanding this but any and all self-proclaimed Bible teachers who repudiate this as a Old or New Testament reality should be rebuked and identified as what they are - heretics - as the fallen nature of man is the same before and after the cross and so is the solution - circumcision of the heart.

Right back to your nasty habit of calling those who disagree with you liars, or heretics, or some other name.

The very tactics that got you banned just a few days ago. How soon one forgets.

And I have never called myself a teacher or "doctor" or any other name, I have no desire for vain glory.

 

[Earth Wind and Fire]

Right back to your nasty habit of calling those who disagree with you liars, or heretics, or some other name.

The very tactics that got you banned just a few days ago. How soon one forgets.

And I have never called myself a teacher or "doctor" or any other name, I have no desire for vain glory.

He defined what heretics are...he did not call anyone a heretic nor did he call anyone a liar.

 

[Iconoclast]

Right back to your nasty habit of calling those who disagree with you liars, or heretics, or some other name.

The very tactics that got you banned just a few days ago. How soon one forgets.

And I have never called myself a teacher or "doctor" or any other name, I have no desire for vain glory.

You are just bearing false witness again.You cannot help yourself can you?
You come here and post as a trouble maker....trying to censor anyone who offers orthodox teaching.Even non cals have asked you to stop:wavey:get a clue Winman:thumbsup:

 

[Winman]

He defined what heretics are...he did not call anyone a heretic nor did he call anyone a liar.

And I did not call anyone an idiot.

 

[Revmitchell]

Heresy and a heretic is anyone and any doctrine that repudiates what the scriptures clearly and explicity demand is essential.

Are you suggesting that anyone who does not hold to the Calvinist view is not saved?

 

[Earth Wind and Fire]

And I did not call anyone an idiot.

You appear offended....is there something you'd like to get off your chest that's troubling you? Are you harboring any deep seeded resentment that needs to be addressed?

 

[Earth Wind and Fire]

Are you suggesting that anyone who does not hold to the Calvinist view is not saved?

Before the Bib answers you, please show me where he says 'Calvinist view '

 

[Revmitchell]

Before the Bib answers you, please show me where he says 'Calvinist view '

Let's not be coy and play games with words. We all know what he means. This line of questioning is not helpful.

 

[Earth Wind and Fire]

Let's not be coy and play games with words. We all know what he means. This line of questioning is not helpful.

Nonsence.....anyone with eyes to see would know what your doing is pure entrapment. Its also slameful

 

[Revmitchell]

Nonsence.....anyone with eyes to see would know what your doing is pure entrapment. Its also slameful

Actually what anyone can see is that he is espousing Calvinist doctrine then saying that anyone who does not hold to it is a heretic. A heretic is anyone who is not saved. If he wants to avoid direct questions like mine then he should avoid such lambastic and unnecessary wording such as heretic. Just because he avoids calling it what it is does not remove him from the responsibility of his words. And defending him means you are willing to say the exact same thing.


Huh, in fact the very fact that you are accusing me of entrapment goes to show exactly what he is doing. And this is not the first time he has made such implications. If he is not speaking of Calvinism then maybe he can answer the question for himself and show how what he said is widely accepted by cals and non cals alike. If he cannot show that what he said is accepted by both cals and non cals then we have the answer to my question.

And that kind of posting needs to stop.

 

[BobRyan]

There is no flaw in what I said, I am quoting scripture for what it says.

Rom 6:17 But God be thanked, that ye were the servants of sin, but ye have obeyed from the heart that form of doctrine which was delivered you.
18 Being then made free from sin, ye became the servants of righteousness.

This scripture is clear as day, Paul said these persons were servants of sin, but they have obeyed the gospel. It is upon obeying the gospel that they were made free of sin and became servants of righteousness. .

I have been accused of saying that a lost person needs to first be Christlike and forgiving of others before they can forgiven of their sins. I repeatedly reject that idea.

The obedience of the lost person - as a lost person - is repentance, confession, accepting the Gospel, accepting faith in Christ.

The obedience of the saved person includes what Paul calls obeying the Gospel and "keeping the commandments of God" 1Cor 7:19.

But as Romans 8:6-8 points out that obedience to the law of God is not possible for the lost person. For them the only obedience possible is repentance, confession and accepting faith in Christ,

Romans 10 points out that this "results in salvation".

And BOTH forms of obedience are made possible through the work of the Holy Spirit - who "Convicts the WORLD of sin and righteousness and judgment" - not just the saved.

in Christ,

Bob

 

[BobRyan]

Rom. 8:8 So then they that are in the flesh cannot please God.

We know "they that are in the flesh" are explicitly stated in verse 9 to be "none of his." So "they that are in the flesh" refers to all who are "none of his" or all who are not "in the Spirit" as the phrase "in the Spirit" is placed in contrast to those who are "in the flesh."

There is no THIRD category between being "in the flesh" and being "in the Spirit."

Verse 8 is the direct application of verse 7 to those "in the flesh" as an explanation why they "cannot please God." Hence, that very explanation declares the "carnal mind" is a STATE or CONDITION that "cannot" (not "may not") please God, and that STATE or CONDITION describes the fallen nature not the new creature or regenerated nature.

Who can argue that verse 7 is a product of "the Spirit" or the regenerate new man?

How odd that we have only a sentence "snippet".

Here it is in complete sentences.

[FONT=&quot]Rom 8[/FONT]
[FONT=&quot]5 For those who are according to the flesh set their minds on the things of the flesh, but those who are according to the Spirit, the things of the Spirit.[/FONT]
[FONT=&quot]6 For the mind set on the flesh is death, but the mind set on the Spirit is life and peace,[/FONT]
[FONT=&quot]7 because [/FONT][FONT=&quot]the mind set on the flesh is hostile toward God;[/FONT][FONT=&quot] for it [/FONT][FONT=&quot]does not subject itself to the Law of God[/FONT][FONT=&quot], for it [/FONT][FONT=&quot]is not even able to do so[/FONT][FONT=&quot],[/FONT]
[FONT=&quot]8 and those who are in the flesh cannot please God[/FONT][FONT=&quot].[/FONT]

Those who claim they are not "able to subject themselves" to the Law of God - are claiming the position of the lost - "in the flesh".

However Romans 10 points out what the lost CAN do that "results in salvation". (And I think they can do it by the power of the Holy Spirit who "convicts the WORLD of sin and righteousness and judgment" - not just the born-again, not just the regenerate)

[FONT=&quot]Rom 10[/FONT]
[FONT=&quot]8 But what does it say? "THE WORD IS NEAR YOU, IN YOUR MOUTH AND IN YOUR HEART"--that is, the word of faith which we are preaching,
9 that if you confess with your mouth Jesus as Lord, and believe in your heart that God raised Him from the dead, you will be saved;
10 for with the heart a person believes, resulting in righteousness, and with the mouth he confesses, resulting in salvation. [/FONT]
[FONT=&quot]11 For the Scripture says, "WHOEVER BELIEVES IN HIM WILL NOT BE DISAPPOINTED." [/FONT]




in Christ,

Bob