Romans 8 exegesis

[MrJim]

That's good, MrJim! :thumbs:

Because many believers do not know that they can "sin unto death" temporally. My favorite/worst example is smoking -- destroying the "temple" of God. My mom died of emphysema but there are SO many bad outcomes of smoking!! This is a "sin unto death" when one is in the final throes of destruction! Please, if you smoke --- QUIT!! Your Christian friends, though they pray with all their might, have no power over your situation! And that is God's word, not ours!

I have no doubt of my mother's salvation. I believe that we often come to Christ in situations that we may never have enough faith to overcome. I, fortunately, overcame the same habit, perhaps on account of my youth, my maleness + God, for sure! But "willful" sin -- be sure you will be expecting "judgment and fiery indignation" in this life!

And that is the point of "saved by the life of Christ," Jim. God can only sanctify you IAW your obedience. God gives us a really good pattern for repentance/quitting the flesh in 2Cor 7:9-11. He gives the power of the Spirit (and, in my mom's case, of "chemicals" -- I paid for her to get injections to try to disable her addiction BEFORE it was too late). I am very emotional about this but also "wise" in the ways of God and Satan, too. You need to be committed to this concept of "saved by His life" if you are to understand the "abundant life!"

skypair

Does kinda make sense-doesn't even have to be something as obvious as smoking-like how we're always being told about the effects of worrying/anxiety. Sins are destructive in physical ways as well as spiritually.

 

[DQuixote]

I think Scarlet has handled this quite well.

I'll just add my .02 cents (aside from the "sin unto death" items).

13 For if ye live after the flesh, ye shall die: but if ye through the Spirit do mortify the deeds of the body, ye shall live.

Tell me all about the nature of killing the "deeds of the body" and the apparent conditional nature of failing to kill the deeds of the body.

I don't know why the question was even asked. To say that 8:13 makes salvation conditional is unbelievable. If ye live by the flesh clearly means that if you deny Christ, you shall die in your sin. If ye through the spirit put to death the deeds of the flesh clearly means that if you receive Christ, you shall live (and that eternally).

Further,

When we compare Scripture with Scripture we see that the salvation of the soul is in fact a life-long process and this process can be thwarted by the individual. So the death that is being speaking of is explained in other areas of Scripture as the loss of the soul.

That quote is so far out of scriptural, spiritual truth it is ridiculous. If a member of my church advocated that I would ask him to leave. If he asked for a letter, I would decline.

The soul is the mind, the will, the emotions. If we die without Christ, obviously our mind, will, and emotions die with us. If we live with Christ, we have no need for mind, will, and emotions.

Verse 4 is declarative. It is not conditional. Christians walk after the Spirit, not the flesh, not in our own effort, but because He imparted His Righteousness to us. When He looks at me He sees not sin, He sees the Cross.

Why, why, why do we make the simplicity of His amazing Good News so difficult? God forgive us.

:1_grouphug: <------praying for the BB.

 

[J.D.]

I think Scarlet has handled this quite well.

I'll just add my .02 cents (aside from the "sin unto death" items).



I don't know why the question was even asked. To say that 8:13 makes salvation conditional is unbelievable. If ye live by the flesh clearly means that if you deny Christ, you shall die in your sin. If ye through the spirit put to death the deeds of the flesh clearly means that if you receive Christ, you shall live (and that eternally).

Further,



That quote is so far out of scriptural, spiritual truth it is ridiculous. If a member of my church advocated that I would ask him to leave. If he asked for a letter, I would decline.

The soul is the mind, the will, the emotions. If we die without Christ, obviously our mind, will, and emotions die with us. If we live with Christ, we have no need for mind, will, and emotions.

Verse 4 is declarative. It is not conditional. Christians walk after the Spirit, not the flesh, not in our own effort, but because He imparted His Righteousness to us. When He looks at me He sees not sin, He sees the Cross.

Why, why, why do we make the simplicity of His amazing Good News so difficult? God forgive us.

:1_grouphug: <------praying for the BB.

DQ, Thank you for bringing this back down to earth.

 

[J. Jump]

Christians walk after the Spirit, not the flesh,

So are you sinless? Or are you advocating that the Holy Spirit sins? Because it has to be one or the other.

Now surely you will not say that you are sinless, so if Christians don't walk after the flesh then the Holy Spirit must be leading your to sin eh?

That's the only option you are left with, or you are going to have to recant and say that Christians can and do walk in the flesh. Every time you sin you walk in the flesh.

If a member of my church advocated that I would ask him to leave. If he asked for a letter, I would decline.

Not surprising. Paul was asked to leave several places and not come back, so I'm not surprised by your statement.

And just remember as a pastor/teacher (which is what you are assuming that you have a church) your judgment will be even more so than the people under your care.

Why, why, why do we make the simplicity of His amazing Good News so difficult?

I don't know why do you? You are taking two messages and trying to combine them and basically destroying both of them.

I wish people would keep separate that which was intended to be kept separate, but they don't.

 

[J. Jump]

If a member of my church advocated that I would ask him to leave.

Notice the key phrase in this statement. Need we wonder why Christendom is in such disarray? I think not.

 

[skypair]

I don't know why the question was even asked. To say that 8:13 makes salvation conditional is unbelievable.

BUT temporal (spirit) and eternal (soul) salvation is conditional upon belief and obedience.

If ye live by the flesh clearly means that if you deny Christ, you shall die in your sin. If ye through the spirit put to death the deeds of the flesh clearly means that if you receive Christ, you shall live (and that eternally).

Actually, the Pharisees thought they were living to the spirit but were wrong. They were living legalisms which, while denying the flesh, were simply "will worship" --- an exercise in worshipping the "spiritual" things that they could do.

And even believers can try to live unto the law/flesh rather than unto the Spirit. I don't think you understand the issues here, DQ.

The soul is the mind, the will, the emotions.

According to most people that is true. But I don't agree. The mind, emotions, and will are our "spirit." It is our soul/conscience that dies upon sinning and that is eternally saved upon belief and repentance to the truth.

However, our spirits are always bombarded by the desires of the flesh. If we don't acknowledge God in our souls, we will likely serve sin in our flesh (which is what this thread is about).

If we die without Christ, obviously our mind, will, and emotions die with us. If we live with Christ, we have no need for mind, will, and emotions.

The mind, emotions, and will NEVER die, friend. It is only the body that dies.

skypair

 

[skypair]

MrJim, JJump

When I get home, I will likely start a thread on this thought since many are not aware of the key issues here.

Like I told by brother, we are saved from hell itself by His death ETERNALLY ... we are saved from hell on earth (spiritually speaking) by living His life DAILY.

Can you see it? Saved by His life means living in joy -- abundant life -- "reigning" as 8:XX says -- no "wrath" from God as an earlier verse says (you know, God will send His wrath on us -- if we don't respond to chastisement -- just as if we were "children of disobedience!").

But how many Christian folks do you know that are living defeated, immasculated lives in their homes, at work, etc. Especially teens! They are "mental and emotional meltdowns!" They have no "will" to do well -- only to feed the flesh.

They needed not to be saved once forever but also to die daily and be resurrected by the Spirit continually!

skypair

 

[J.D.]

When I get home, I will likely start a thread on this thought since many are not aware of the key issues here.

Like I told by brother, we are saved from hell itself by His death ETERNALLY ... we are saved from hell on earth (spiritually speaking) by living His life DAILY.

Can you see it? Saved by His life means living in joy -- abundant life -- "reigning" as 8:XX says -- no "wrath" from God as an earlier verse says (you know, God will send His wrath on us -- if we don't respond to chastisement -- just as if we were "children of disobedience!").

But how many Christian folks do you know that are living defeated, immasculated lives in their homes, at work, etc. Especially teens! They are "mental and emotional meltdowns!" They have no "will" to do well -- only to feed the flesh.

They needed not to be saved once forever but also to die daily and be resurrected by the Spirit continually!

skypair

So they are saved eternally, but not saved daily? Does this mean that the same Spirit that saves them eternally does not save them daily? Are you saying that a person can have the Holy Spirit indwelling them and not be affected by Him to holiness? A born again person has "no will to do well"???

 

[skypair]

So they are saved eternally, but not saved daily? Does this mean that the same Spirit that saves them eternally does not save them daily? Are you saying that a person can have the Holy Spirit indwelling them and not be affected by Him to holiness? A born again person has "no will to do well"???

Did I startle you, J.D.?? :laugh:

How about this -- saved spiritually but not temporally? Now altogether saved from the flesh yet.

Same Spirit, yes. But again -- just as the manner in which He came, even so the manner in which He operates daily. Did you once reject the gospel? I'm sure you did just as I did. But once you received it and repented, you were "quickened" to life eternal.

Now take that as a daily pattern as well. Your flesh is still in the battle. You grieve, quench, and even reject the Spirit though you are saved and this is what Rom 8 is teaching -- you need to live daily by the Spirit that saved you and not by the flesh that damned you!

Now to answer your 3rd question: the fact that He indwells our SPIRIT and the fact that we have this "favorable, saving predisposition toward God" in our SOUL means that God will "continue the perform that He has begun in us" (Phil 1:6) but it is by no means an even, straight road to holiness. I'm sure you would agree with this and that it is important to see this distinction between eternal, guaranteed salvation of our souls and daily sanctification in our spirits.

As to the 4th question: Our "control center"/soul wants to do well --- is so predisposed, yes. But look at Rom 6:11-12 for example: "Likewise reckon ye also yourselves to be dead indeed unto sin, but alive unto God through Jesus Christ our Lord. 12 Let not sin therefore reign in your mortal body, that ye should obey it in the lusts thereof." Do you see the importance not just of will of the Holy Spirit but of volition/choice in our spirit? It is not good enough to will (Rom 7:23) but we need also to decide not to listen to the flesh.

skypair

skypair