Romans 8 questions

[agedman]

Romans 8:

1There is therefore now no condemnation for those who are in Christ Jesus. 2For the law of the Spirit of life has set you free in Christ Jesus from the law of sin and death. 3For God has done what the law, weakened by the flesh, could not do. By sending his own Son in the likeness of sinful flesh and for sin, he condemned sin in the flesh, 4in order that the righteous requirement of the law might be fulfilled in us, who walk not according to the flesh but according to the Spirit. 5For those who live according to the flesh set their minds on the things of the flesh, but those who live according to the Spirit set their minds on the things of the Spirit. 6For to set the mind on the flesh is death, but to set the mind on the Spirit is life and peace. 7For the mind that is set on the flesh is hostile to God, for it does not submit to God’s law; indeed, it cannot. 8Those who are in the flesh cannot please God.​

9You, however, are not in the flesh but in the Spirit, if in fact the Spirit of God dwells in you. Anyone who does not have the Spirit of Christ does not belong to him. 10But if Christ is in you, although the body is dead because of sin, the Spirit is life because of righteousness. 11If the Spirit of him who raised Jesus from the dead dwells in you, he who raised Christ Jesus from the dead will also give life to your mortal bodies through his Spirit who dwells in you.​

Questions:

1) Is it your opinion that the word "law" refers to that given by God to Moses? (note: I do not know why the NASB capitalizes the word "law" in a place and not in another. It is all the same in greek as I recall)

2) Verse 3 states that the flesh weakens the law, how to you see this in application?

3) Verse 4 states that the law has a "righteous requirement" needing fulfilled. Yet there are those who teach the law was done away with, so why is there yet a "righteous requirement needing fulfilled?

4) How do you see the life lived effecting the thoughts which in turn effect the purpose?

5) How do you see in your own testimony of living the work of the Spirit of life even though the body is dead because of sin?

6) "If the Spirit of him who raised Jesus from the dead dwells in you..." who raised Jesus from the dead?

7) How then is life given to those "hostile to God" (verse 7) or is there no life given?​

 

[Reformed]

Romans 8:

1There is therefore now no condemnation for those who are in Christ Jesus. 2For the law of the Spirit of life has set you free in Christ Jesus from the law of sin and death. 3For God has done what the law, weakened by the flesh, could not do. By sending his own Son in the likeness of sinful flesh and for sin, he condemned sin in the flesh, 4in order that the righteous requirement of the law might be fulfilled in us, who walk not according to the flesh but according to the Spirit. 5For those who live according to the flesh set their minds on the things of the flesh, but those who live according to the Spirit set their minds on the things of the Spirit. 6For to set the mind on the flesh is death, but to set the mind on the Spirit is life and peace. 7For the mind that is set on the flesh is hostile to God, for it does not submit to God’s law; indeed, it cannot. 8Those who are in the flesh cannot please God.​

9You, however, are not in the flesh but in the Spirit, if in fact the Spirit of God dwells in you. Anyone who does not have the Spirit of Christ does not belong to him. 10But if Christ is in you, although the body is dead because of sin, the Spirit is life because of righteousness. 11If the Spirit of him who raised Jesus from the dead dwells in you, he who raised Christ Jesus from the dead will also give life to your mortal bodies through his Spirit who dwells in you.​

Questions:

1) Is it your opinion that the word "law" refers to that given by God to Moses? (note: I do not know why the NASB capitalizes the word "law" in a place and not in another. It is all the same in greek as I recall)

The first use of the word "law" in verse 2 does not refer to the Law of Moses. It refers to the redemptive work of the Holy Spirit. The second use of the word in verse 2 and the use of the word in verses 3 and 4 do refer to the Law of Moses.

2) Verse 3 states that the flesh weakens the law, how to you see this in application?

This emphasizes the futility of the Law in producing human obedience.

3) Verse 4 states that the law has a "righteous requirement" needing fulfilled. Yet there are those who teach the law was done away with, so why is there yet a "righteous requirement needing fulfilled?

Scripture calls the Law holy, righteous, and good (Romans 7:12). Christ fulfilled the righteous requirement of the Law ("Be holy as I am holy", 1 Peter 1:16) on our behalf. So, it can be said that the righteous requirement of the Law is fulfilled in us through Christ.

4) How do you see the life lived effecting the thoughts which in turn effect the purpose?

Since we are in the Spirit (Romans 8:9), we will set our minds on the things of the Spirit, albeit imperfectly because of abiding sin. As we mature in our Christian life our yielding to the Spirit will increase.

5) How do you see in your own testimony of living the work of the Spirit of life even though the body is dead because of sin?

One word comes to mind: repentance. Repentance from sin is the proof of the Spirit working within me. Luther wrote, "the entire life of believers to be one of repentance". In other words, we are constantly dying to self and turning towards God. This is ony possible because of the Holy Spirit.

6) "If the Spirit of him who raised Jesus from the dead dwells in you..." who raised Jesus from the dead?

Scripture says in John 10:17-18 "17 For this reason the Father loves Me, because I lay down My life so that I may take it again. 18 No one has taken it away from Me, but I lay it down on My own initiative. I have authority to lay it down, and I have authority to take it up again. This commandment I received from My Father.” So, the answer is Jesus, in perfect harmony with the will of the Father.

7) How then is life given to those "hostile to God" (verse 7) or is there no life given?

Those who are hostile to God are those who are outside of Christ. There is no eternal life given to them.
​

My answers are in red above.

 

[37818]

The translators of NASB and NLT both agree that the "law" in Romans 8:3-4 refer to the Law of Moses.

NASB, ". . . For what the Law could not do, weak as it was through the flesh, God did: sending His own Son in the likeness of sinful flesh and as an offering for sin, He condemned sin in the flesh, so that the requirement of the Law might be fulfilled in us, who do not walk according to the flesh but according to the Spirit. . . ."

NLT, ". . . The law of Moses was unable to save us because of the weakness of our sinful nature. He did this so that the just requirement of the law would be fully satisfied for us, who no longer follow our sinful nature but instead follow the Spirit. . . ."

 

[kyredneck]

Questions:

1) Is it your opinion that the word "law" refers to that given by God to Moses?

Paul consistently makes the distinction between ‘the spirit’ of the law and ‘the letter’ of the law. It should be apparent from the text which is meant:

29 but he is a Jew who is one inwardly; and circumcision is that of the heart, in the spirit not in the letter; whose praise is not of men, but of God. Ro 2

6 But now we have been discharged from the law, having died to that wherein we were held; so that we serve in newness of the spirit, and not in oldness of the letter. Ro 7

3 being made manifest that ye are an epistle of Christ, ministered by us, written not with ink, but with the Spirit of the living God; not in tables of stone, but in tables that are hearts of flesh. 2 Cor 3 [Romans 2:15]

6 who also made us sufficient as ministers of a new covenant; not of the letter, but of the spirit: for the letter killeth, but the spirit giveth life. 2 Cor 3


2) Verse 3 states that the flesh weakens the law, how to you see this in application?

Paul went to great lengths in the previous chapter to explain this. Romans 7


3) Verse 4 states that the law has a "righteous requirement" needing fulfilled.

‘Justifying works’

4) How do you see the life lived effecting the thoughts which in turn effect the purpose?

Too deep for this hillbilly.

 

[agedman]

1) Is it your opinion that the word "law" refers to that given by God to Moses?

Paul consistently makes the distinction between ‘the spirit’ of the law and ‘the letter’ of the law. It should be apparent from the text which is meant:

29 but he is a Jew who is one inwardly; and circumcision is that of the heart, in the spirit not in the letter; whose praise is not of men, but of God. Ro 2

6 But now we have been discharged from the law, having died to that wherein we were held; so that we serve in newness of the spirit, and not in oldness of the letter. Ro 7

3 being made manifest that ye are an epistle of Christ, ministered by us, written not with ink, but with the Spirit of the living God; not in tables of stone, but in tables that are hearts of flesh. 2 Cor 3 [Romans 2:15]

6 who also made us sufficient as ministers of a new covenant; not of the letter, but of the spirit: for the letter killeth, but the spirit giveth life. 2 Cor 3


2) Verse 3 states that the flesh weakens the law, how to you see this in application?

Paul went to great lengths in the previous chapter to explain this. Romans 7


3) Verse 4 states that the law has a "righteous requirement" needing fulfilled.

‘Justifying works’

4) How do you see the life lived effecting the thoughts which in turn effect the purpose?

Too deep for this hillbilly.

I understand that principle, but the translators of different versions offer both lower case and upper case for the same passage.

For example verse 3 by different translators - some appoint “law” as indicating that of Moses, others do not.
See here for a list: Romans 8:3 For what the law was powerless to do in that it was weakened by the flesh, God did by sending His own Son in the likeness of sinful man, as an offering for sin. He thus condemned sin in the flesh,

 

[kyredneck]

For example verse 3 by different translators - some appoint “law” as indicating that of Moses, others do not.
See here for a list: Romans 8:3 For what the law was powerless to do in that it was weakened by the flesh, God did by sending His own Son in the likeness of sinful man, as an offering for sin. He thus condemned sin in the flesh,

Consider the prior verse:

2 For the law of the Spirit of life in Christ Jesus made me free from the law of sin and of death.

Which 'law' is in view in v 3?

 

[agedman]

Consider the prior verse:

2 For the law of the Spirit of life in Christ Jesus made me free from the law of sin and of death.

Which 'law' is in view in v 3?

That is the question I ask, too.

Does the context oblige “L” or “l” for the context could work for either.

 

[kyredneck]

That is the question I ask, too.

Well, I actually asked the question rhetorically.

It should be clear to you from the text which it is.

 

[Dave G]

1) Is it your opinion that the word "law" refers to that given by God to Moses? (note: I do not know why the NASB capitalizes the word "law" in a place and not in another. It is all the same in greek as I recall)

Yes.
Please refer to Romans 7.

Also, what the NASB does isn't why I understand it that way, as I understand it just by reading the text...whether capitalized or not.
I personally do not use it, because I feel that it is inferior to the AV.

2) Verse 3 states that the flesh weakens the law, how to you see this in application?

I don't see it saying that the flesh actually weakens the Law.
Perhaps I'm seeing it in the technical sense, but to me, the Law is just and holy ( Romans 7:12 ), and we cannot keep it.
Our flesh is weak towards it.

Here it is in the AV:

" For what the law could not do, in that it was weak through the flesh, God sending his own Son in the likeness of sinful flesh, and for sin, condemned sin in the flesh:" ( Romans 8:3, AV )

It says that the Law was weak through the flesh...
The flesh cannot keep the Law, which agrees with Romans 8:7-8 in that those that are "in the flesh" cannot please God.


In application, the Law ( primarily what is contained in the Ten Commandments ) is the Law of Moses, and definitely what is contained here:

" Master, which [is] the great commandment in the law?
37 Jesus said unto him, Thou shalt love the Lord thy God with all thy heart, and with all thy soul, and with all thy mind.
38 This is the first and great commandment.
39 And the second [is] like unto it, Thou shalt love thy neighbour as thyself.
40 On these two commandments hang all the law and the prophets." ( Matthew 22:26-40 ).

The Law is, in the greater sense, all that is contained in the Law of Moses...
But it can be broken down to its essential components as described in the above.

It is the law of sin and of death, because it condemns the sinner in their condition ( spiritual death, dead in trespasses and sins, Ephesians 2:1, Ephesians 2:5 ), and no one but Christ Jesus was ever able to keep it to the letter.
It then functions as the "schoolmaster" to lead the sinner to Christ ( Galatians 3:24 )

Nothing brings life except Jesus and Him crucified in its place.
The law of the Spirit is by grace through faith in Christ's finished work on the cross for the believer.

He kept the Law, and we look to His work that was done in our place.

 

[Dave G]

3) Verse 4 states that the law has a "righteous requirement" needing fulfilled. Yet there are those who teach the law was done away with, so why is there yet a "righteous requirement needing fulfilled?

I use the AV, which says this:
" that the righteousness of the law might be fulfilled in us, who walk not after the flesh, but after the Spirit."

In my own words:

"So that the righteousness of the Law might be fulfilled in us, the believer.
The "us" who do not walk after ( follow after ) the flesh, but who follow after the Spirit."

The believer is led by the Spirit ( Romans 8:14 ), not by the flesh or by the old nature.
We no longer walk after the flesh, but the Spirit.

God's word also tells us that the flesh lusts after the Spirit and the Spirit after the flesh.
They are in conflict, so that we cannot do the things that we, in our new hearts, want to do for God.
Therefore, we are to walk in the Spirit, so that we do not fulfill the lusts of the flesh ( Galatians 5:13-18 ).

Those lusts are these ( Galatians 5:19-21 ).
The Spirit mortifies ( puts to death ) the deeds of the body ( Romans 8:10-13 ), so that we then begin to obey His commands ( "the requirement" ) more and more, and with confidence towards God.


Side note:
In the Greek, the word "δικαίωμα" is transliterated into the English as, " dikaiōma", which means, " just-effect" or "just-requirement".
Please see the Greek here for reference:
https://www.scripture4all.org/OnlineInterlinear/NTpdf/rom8.pdf

However, that is for another thread.

 

[Dave G]

4) How do you see the life lived effecting the thoughts which in turn effect the purpose?

I don't see it carried out in that order.

I see that the life lived is a product of the Spirit within us, leading us into all truth, which affects our thoughts.
His word does the work, and our mind is transformed by it ( Romans 12:2 ).
In our thoughts, we then glorify the Lord for His gift of eternal life, and our purpose is to both thank Him for that gift, and to do the good works set before us ( Ephesians 2:10 ).

Those works are determined by God ( John 3:21, Philippians 2:13 ).

5) How do you see in your own testimony of living the work of the Spirit of life even though the body is dead because of sin?

I see my own sins becoming less and less, evidencing the Spirit's work in me, and the privilege of walking in His Spirit is what overcomes the flesh.
I'm still a sinner in the flesh and still sin, but it is becoming easier to obey Him the more years that go by.

6) "If the Spirit of him who raised Jesus from the dead dwells in you..." who raised Jesus from the dead?

God the Father ( Acts of the Apostles 2:24, Acts of the Apostles 2:32, Romans 4:24, Romans 10:9, 1 Peter 1:21 ).

7) How then is life given to those "hostile to God" (verse 7) or is there no life given?

The Spirit gives life ( John 6:63 ).
Christ gives life ( John 17:2 ).
The Father and the Son both give life ( John 5:21 ).

Life to the soul is "regeneration" ( Titus 3:5-6 ).
The "water of life" is the word of God ( Ephesians 5:26 ).

That life is given by God...all of it.