Romans 9:10-18

BBob, I thought you were premil once, Have you given it up altogether?

 

Isa 1:18 "Come now, and let us reason together," Says the LORD, "Though your sins are as scarlet, They will be as white as snow; Though they are red like crimson, They will be like wool.


Jer 31:34 "They will not teach again, each man his neighbor and each man his brother, saying, 'Know the LORD,' for they will all know Me, from the least of them to the greatest of them," declares the LORD, "for I will forgive their iniquity, and their sin I will remember no more." (emphasis mine)

I would suggest putting that reading away for a while if it is causing you trouble.

Deu 7:9 "Know therefore that the LORD your God, He is God, the faithful God, who keeps His covenant and His lovingkindness to a thousandth generation with those who love Him and keep His commandments;

Zep 3:17 The LORD your God in your midst, The Mighty One, will save; He will rejoice over you with gladness, He will quiet [you] with His love, He will rejoice over you with singing."

Rom 5:5 and hope does not disappoint, because the love of God has been poured out within our hearts through the Holy Spirit who was given to us.

Rom 5:8 But God demonstrates His own love toward us, in that while we were yet sinners, Christ died for us.

2Cr 13:11 Finally, brethren, rejoice, be made complete, be comforted, be like-minded, live in peace; and the God of love and peace will be with you.

Eph 3:14 For this reason I bow my knees before the Father,
Eph 3:15 from whom every family in heaven and on earth derives its name,
Eph 3:16 that He would grant you, according to the riches of His glory, to be strengthened with power through His Spirit in the inner man,
Eph 3:17 so that Christ may dwell in your hearts through faith; {and} that you, being rooted and grounded in love,
Eph 3:18 may be able to comprehend with all the saints what is the breadth and length and height and depth,
Eph 3:19 and to know the love of Christ which surpasses knowledge, that you may be filled up to all the fullness of God.
Eph 3:20 Now to Him who is able to do far more abundantly beyond all that we ask or think, according to the power that works within us,
Eph 3:21 to Him {be} the glory in the church and in Christ Jesus to all generations forever and ever. Amen.

Phl 4:6 Be anxious for nothing, but in everything by prayer and supplication with thanksgiving let your requests be made known to God.
Phl 4:7 And the peace of God, which surpasses all comprehension, will guard your hearts and your minds in Christ Jesus.

Col 3:15 Let the peace of Christ rule in your hearts, to which indeed you were called in one body; and be thankful.

2Th 3:16 Now may the Lord of peace Himself continually grant you peace in every circumstance. The Lord be with you all!

Rom 5:1 Therefore, having been justified by faith, we have peace with God through our Lord Jesus Christ,



Rusty,

I think everyone has gone through what you are feeling. Stay in the Word, and stay in prayer. Trust God's word to be true, and use this to strengthen your faith. You will be in my prayers.

Jam 1:2 Consider it all joy, my brethren, when you encounter various trials,
Jam 1:3 knowing that the testing of your faith produces endurance.
Jam 1:4 And let endurance have {its} perfect result, so that you may be perfect and complete, lacking in nothing.
Jam 1:5 But if any of you lacks wisdom, let him ask of God, who gives to all generously and without reproach, and it will be given to him.
Jam 1:6 But he must ask in faith without any doubting, for the one who doubts is like the surf of the sea, driven and tossed by the wind.
Jam 1:7 For that man ought not to expect that he will receive anything from the Lord,
Jam 1:8 {being} a double-minded man, unstable in all his ways.

 

Piper says your position denies what Scripture really teaches. Do you have any Scripture for your postion?

 

I don't understand what you mean TC; I have said all along that the Covenant was made to Israel, not the Gentiles and that some of Israel were blinded so that the fulness of the Gentiles could come and then the blinded could be grafted back in. I am saying no different now.

It seems that Paul agrees with me that the fulness of the Gentiles has come. He wrote the passage "fulness of the Gentiles" and then he said that he might save some of them that were blinded so salvation could come to the Gentiles. If Paul thought now, he might save some of them, knowing they couldn't be saved until the "fulness of the Gentiles" come, then Paul must of believed that it has already come.

Rom 11:14If by any means I may provoke to emulation [them which are] my flesh, and might save some of them.
BBob,

 

Romans 2:
26: Therefore if the uncircumcision keep the righteousness of the law, shall not his uncircumcision be counted for circumcision?
27: And shall not uncircumcision which is by nature, if it fulfill the law, judge thee, who by the letter and circumcision dost transgress the law?
28: For he is not a Jew, which is one outwardly; neither is that circumcision, which is outward in the flesh:
29: But he is a Jew, which is one inwardly; and circumcision is that of the heart, in the spirit, and not in the letter; whose praise is not of men, but of God

Who are these people if not Gentiles.

BBob,

 

1. Are you premil?

2. Your statement is not the same as Paul's statement. You might one to correct that.

 

No, I am not premill, I am Amill. The thousand years is spiritual.

It is exactly what Paul said.

Romans 11:

7: What then? Israel hath not obtained that which he seeketh for; but the election hath obtained it, and the rest were blinded
8: (According as it is written, God hath given them the spirit of slumber, eyes that they should not see, and ears that they should not hear unto this day.
9: And David saith, Let their table be made a snare, and a trap, and a stumbling block, and a recompence unto them:
10: Let their eyes be darkened, that they may not see, and bow down their back always.
11: I say then, Have they stumbled that they should fall? God forbid: but rather through their fall salvation is come unto the Gentiles, for to provoke them to jealousy.
12: Now if the fall of them be the riches of the world, and the diminishing of them the riches of the Gentiles; how much more their fullness?
13: For I speak to you Gentiles, inasmuch as I am the apostle of the Gentiles, I magnify mine office:
14: If by any means I may provoke to emulation them which are my flesh, and might save some of them.

 

The context begins quite clearly with the subjects being nations..."two nations are in your womb".

A clear understanding of the passage as you have presented, wd, would clear up the OP's question. I find it contradictory that answers are being sought, in fact an answer so clear as to disqualify the question and render it unnecessary, hence adding to one's faith, yet when a clear answer here is provided it seems to be dismissed.

Well, I suppose none of us reads every road sign.

 

It seems Piper spoke both ways, if I understand him?

BBob,

 

Follow the genius of Paul's argument and you will see that he is maintaining each ethnicity, while affirming a new identity.

 

1. I though you were referring to v. 25, which reads: "Lest you be wise in your own sight, I want you to understand this mystery, brothers: a partial hardening has come upon Israel, until the fullness of the Gentiles has come in."

2. Paul points to the future, while your statement points to the present. Cleary, they are not the same.

3. Has the fulness of the Gentile come in?

4. When did you change to Amil? It seems recent to me.

 

Alway believed and posted that the MK is spiritual and already come.

Paul points to the future of he might save some of them, in the near future, but they had already been blinded previous to that statement.

Yes, the fulness of the Gentiles has come according to Paul, who wrote it. Israel in part was blinded until the fulness of the Gentiles, but in Roman 11: 14 Paul spoke of being able to save some of them and he knew when the fulness of the Gentiles come better than you and I.
If the fulness of the Gentiles had not come, then Paul himself was confused.

That is if Israel was blinded in part one time for the salvation of the Gentiles.

BBob,

 

1. So all the promises to Israel have been fulfilled? So God is done with Ethnic Israel?

2. We see the curses that have come to Israel but the blessings have all been spiritualized in the church? Am I reading you correctly?

 

The Covenant has come and is continuing with us today that whosoever is born again, receives that same covenant and will continue until Heaven says "it is finished". Jew or Greek.

Rom 2:29But he [is] a Jew, which is one inwardly; and circumcision [is that] of the heart, in the spirit, [and] not in the letter; whose praise [is] not of men, but of God.

For we are already one.

Sorry for double post, but felt it necessary.

Eph. 2:
10: For we are his workmanship, created in Christ Jesus unto good works, which God hath before ordained that we should walk in them.
11: Wherefore remember, that ye being in time past Gentiles in the flesh, who are called Uncircumcision by that which is called the Circumcision in the flesh made by hands;
12: That at that time ye were without Christ, being aliens from the commonwealth of Israel, and strangers from the covenants of promise, having no hope, and without God in the world:
13: But now in Christ Jesus ye who sometimes were far off are made nigh by the blood of Christ.
14: For he is our peace, who hath made both one, and hath broken down the middle wall of partition between us;

Please read the bold very closely TC;,

BBob,

 

That's a touching testimony and we are all glad you came here with it, Rusty. Welcome to BB. :love2:

First, there are 2 salvations at work in your life right now. There's JUSTIFICATION of your SOUL which you received ETERNALLY from the time you "got saved" (repented and received the righteousness of Christ).

There's another salvation that is the one causing the trouble. That's the SANCTIFICATION of your SPIRIT (your mind, emotions, and will). That's where you are having your problems, right? Sanctification is PROGRESSIVE (lasts throughout your life here and is only concluded on the day of Christ - Phil 3:21 "Who shall change our vile body, that it may be fashioned like unto his glorious body, according to the working whereby he is able even to subdue all things unto himself."

So know this -- God has guaranteed that you are going through all this so that you can become more like Christ until you finally are like Him 1John 3:2. :saint: and so that we may "exhort you to love and good works."

Rusty, read Heb 10:24-27 with this in view --- it is speaking of 'judgment and indignation' in this life, not in the next. Is that what you feel?

"And let us consider one another to provoke unto love and to good works: 25 Not forsaking the assembling of ourselves together, as the manner of some is; but exhorting one another: and so much the more, as ye see the day approaching. 26 For if we sin wilfully after that we have received the knowledge of the truth, there remaineth no more sacrifice for sins, 27 But a certain fearful looking for of judgment and fiery indignation, which shall devour the adversaries."

Now can I tell you that you are not "willfully sinning" if you are confessing and asking God's strength to repent? And it is by confessing and repenting (turning away from that sin) that God WILL work to SANCTIFY you wholely -- body, soul, and spirit (1Thes 5:23).

But in this life, sin has consequences, right? And you have to suffer them if you don't confess. You know this is true --- if we steal, we have to choices: 1) "do the time" OR 2) confess and lay ourselves at the mercy of the one we wronged. "By His stripes are ye healed." That's what Christ did for our confessions. So, "lift up the hands which hang down, and the feeble knees; 13 And make straight paths for your feet, lest that which is lame be turned out of the way; but let it rather be healed." Heb 12:12

Well, I'm going to give you this to start. Do you know that "love driveth out fear?" 1John 4:18

Furthermore, this promise to those who believe -- "For God hath not given us the spirit of fear; but of power, and of love, and of a sound mind." 2Tim 1:7

Love God, Rusty.

skypair

 

Is it presumptuous? Or did God promise it and it would be unbelief not to trust what He said?

John 3:15-16 Rusty -- "That whosoever believeth in him should not perish, but have eternal life..."

Rom 6:23 - "That whosoever believeth in him should not perish, but have eternal life."

1John 5:11 is perhaps the most important: "These things have I written that you might KNOW that you have eternal life and this life is in His Son." How did John say you would know? 1) You love the brethren. 2) You would obey His 2 commandments. 3) You would not love the world. 4) You have unction from the Holy [Spirit] and know all things" (understand the scriptures) 5) You have the Son.

It's a good examination, Rusty. Check it out in 1John 3!

skypair

 

Or maybe the person is repeating and believing what God said He was going to do.

 

"Jacob have I loved, but Esau have I hated."—Romans 9:15.

Fact: Jacob was a real person

Fact: Esau was a real person

Romans 9 shows extremes. Romans 9 shows a list of black and whites.

1st son, - and - the 2nd son

mercy - and - no mercy

compassion - and - no compassion

love - and - hate​

Heb 12

I point out godless, for one cult says that Esau is in Heaven.

honour - and - dishonour​

But who is this clay? Who is the vessel?

The context of the passage tells us.

Notice the verses right before 21.

Shall the thing formed say to him that formed it??

It is men that talk. Notice "the thing formed say".

Nations are made of men.

But....

and get this please.

But...What if God, willing to shew his wrath, and to make his power known, endured with much longsuffering the vessels of wrath fitted to destruction, And that he might make known the riches of his glory on the vessels of mercy, which he had afore prepared unto glory.

What if? Will you now say he cannot make such vessels?