Well Christ is central in God's plan but we all part of the body of Christ through the union with Christ by Spirit baptism so it is central and I think even on the standing of Israel changes when we understand that the Lord Jesus Christ is the true Israel .he's the head with a body that church .
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Romans 9-15
- Thread starter Iconoclast
- Start date
I believe that Romans 9 is important to Understand we are talking about National Israel, and not individual salvation. The Over-Arching Theme IS NOT man resisting/not resisting God's Will for Individual Salvation, Paul is saying that The Plan of Salvation Went to/through the Jews and Has now been open up to the Gentiles....Think of the Idea/Principle of Sojourners.
Hmmm....We will have to dig into this further.
Also, The Pathway to the promised "Seed" was Determined as well. It wasn't a willy-nilly thing for God to determine the Lineage of Christ. It Started with Abraham (technically Adam) and Went to Christ. God Sovereignly chose this. Abraham to Issac (not ishmael) to Jacob (not Esau)...
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Internet Theologian
Well-Known Member
What do you mean Romans 9-15? Mine stops at chapter 9! 
JonShaff
Paul starts out that way. In verses 1-5 he speaks to that.
But we see as he answers the question two things. He had just finished teaching how God saves His elect persons in Rom 8:28-39......so the question jews were asking about was...what about national Israel....he begins to answer it this way-
6 Not as though the word of God hath taken none effect. For they are not all Israel, which are of Israel:
7 Neither, because they are the seed of Abraham, are they all children: but, In Isaac shall thy seed be called.
8 That is, They which are the children of the flesh, these are not the children of God: but the children of the promise are counted for the seed.
So we see two things here......God had indeed singled out Israel from among the nations, and then we learn that there was an individual election in which individuals were elected from among that nation.....hence- not all Israel is of Israel....
Paul is going to define believing Israel....not the "sperma," but the tecknon.
Not the physical descendants necessarily, but only those who were the elect children of the promise are counted for the seed. look up these words here.
Listen , the sojourner idea is fine as in Hebrews 11....that is a side issue at this point.
Read the first 5 posts again, look at what verses the Spirit of god gave to Paul.
Agreed...you are thinking correctly in part...let me press you on this;
No.....it actually starts with the pre-incarnate Christ.....and it extends to the last elected person. The Father gives to the Son a multitude, He agrees to be their mediator and surety. Jesus is not willing that any of them perish, but that all come to repentance.
He seeks and saves each of these persons. He loses none of them.
All that the Father gives Him shall come.
First at the end of chapter 9 he explains how gentiles are coming in with the elect remnant from among Israel.
22 What if God, willing to shew his wrath, and to make his power known, endured with much longsuffering the vessels of wrath fitted to destruction:
23 And that he might make known the riches of his glory on the vessels of mercy, which he had afore prepared unto glory,
24 Even us, whom he hath called, not of the Jews only, but also of the Gentiles?
25 As he saith also in Osee, I will call them my people, which were not my people; and her beloved, which was not beloved.
26 And it shall come to pass, that in the place where it was said unto them, Ye are not my people; there shall they be called the children of the living God.
27 Esaias also crieth concerning Israel, Though the number of the children of Israel be as the sand of the sea, a remnant shall be saved:
28 For he will finish the work, and cut it short in righteousness: because a short work will the Lord make upon the earth.
29 And as Esaias said before, Except the Lord of Sabaoth had left us a seed, we had been as Sodoma, and been made like unto Gomorrha.
30 What shall we say then? That the Gentiles, which followed not after righteousness, have attained to righteousness, even the righteousness which is of faith.
31 But Israel, which followed after the law of righteousness, hath not attained to the law of righteousness.
32 Wherefore? Because they sought it not by faith, but as it were by the works of the law. For they stumbled at that stumblingstone;
33 As it is written, Behold, I lay in Sion a stumblingstone and rock of offence: and whosoever believeth on him shall not be ashamed.
This was revealed in the ot scriptures but the jews did not understand what was written.the mystery was that the gentiles would be grafted in as we learn because of the unbelief of many of the physical seed[sperma]
At the end of chapter 10 he begins sweeping through more Ot scripture showing God's real purpose.
Gentiles are to grafted in to the same exact promises on equal footing....not a "mystery" form of the kingdom, not as an after thought....but it has always been God's design that His eternal church would be from every tribe kindred tongue and nation....
,
Paul starts out that way. In verses 1-5 he speaks to that.
But we see as he answers the question two things. He had just finished teaching how God saves His elect persons in Rom 8:28-39......so the question jews were asking about was...what about national Israel....he begins to answer it this way-
6 Not as though the word of God hath taken none effect. For they are not all Israel, which are of Israel:
7 Neither, because they are the seed of Abraham, are they all children: but, In Isaac shall thy seed be called.
8 That is, They which are the children of the flesh, these are not the children of God: but the children of the promise are counted for the seed.
So we see two things here......God had indeed singled out Israel from among the nations, and then we learn that there was an individual election in which individuals were elected from among that nation.....hence- not all Israel is of Israel....
Paul is going to define believing Israel....not the "sperma," but the tecknon.
Not the physical descendants necessarily, but only those who were the elect children of the promise are counted for the seed. look up these words here.
Of necessity it also deals with individual salvation because as he explains what happened he shows that God even made choice from among the twins in the womb.....you alluded to this yourself.
God's salvation is totally Covenant based....
Listen , the sojourner idea is fine as in Hebrews 11....that is a side issue at this point.
Read the first 5 posts again, look at what verses the Spirit of god gave to Paul.
Agreed...you are thinking correctly in part...let me press you on this;
No.....it actually starts with the pre-incarnate Christ.....and it extends to the last elected person. The Father gives to the Son a multitude, He agrees to be their mediator and surety. Jesus is not willing that any of them perish, but that all come to repentance.
He seeks and saves each of these persons. He loses none of them.
All that the Father gives Him shall come.
This is part of God's eternal purpose...yes
First at the end of chapter 9 he explains how gentiles are coming in with the elect remnant from among Israel.
22 What if God, willing to shew his wrath, and to make his power known, endured with much longsuffering the vessels of wrath fitted to destruction:
23 And that he might make known the riches of his glory on the vessels of mercy, which he had afore prepared unto glory,
24 Even us, whom he hath called, not of the Jews only, but also of the Gentiles?
25 As he saith also in Osee, I will call them my people, which were not my people; and her beloved, which was not beloved.
26 And it shall come to pass, that in the place where it was said unto them, Ye are not my people; there shall they be called the children of the living God.
27 Esaias also crieth concerning Israel, Though the number of the children of Israel be as the sand of the sea, a remnant shall be saved:
28 For he will finish the work, and cut it short in righteousness: because a short work will the Lord make upon the earth.
29 And as Esaias said before, Except the Lord of Sabaoth had left us a seed, we had been as Sodoma, and been made like unto Gomorrha.
30 What shall we say then? That the Gentiles, which followed not after righteousness, have attained to righteousness, even the righteousness which is of faith.
31 But Israel, which followed after the law of righteousness, hath not attained to the law of righteousness.
32 Wherefore? Because they sought it not by faith, but as it were by the works of the law. For they stumbled at that stumblingstone;
33 As it is written, Behold, I lay in Sion a stumblingstone and rock of offence: and whosoever believeth on him shall not be ashamed.
This was revealed in the ot scriptures but the jews did not understand what was written.the mystery was that the gentiles would be grafted in as we learn because of the unbelief of many of the physical seed[sperma]
At the end of chapter 10 he begins sweeping through more Ot scripture showing God's real purpose.
Gentiles are to grafted in to the same exact promises on equal footing....not a "mystery" form of the kingdom, not as an after thought....but it has always been God's design that His eternal church would be from every tribe kindred tongue and nation....
Now having established that fact...he explains in more detail;
22 Behold therefore the goodness and severity of God: on them which fell, severity; but toward thee, goodness, if thou continue in his goodness: otherwise thou also shalt be cut off.
23 And they also, if they abide not still in unbelief, shall be grafted in: for God is able to graft them in again.
24 For if thou wert cut out of the olive tree which is wild by nature, and wert grafted contrary to nature into a good olive tree: how much more shall these, which be the natural branches, be grafted into their own olive tree?
25 For I would not, brethren, that ye should be ignorant of this mystery, lest ye should be wise in your own conceits; that blindness in part is happened to Israel, until the fulness of the Gentiles be come in.
26 And so all Israel shall be saved: as it is written, There shall come out of Sion the Deliverer, and shall turn away ungodliness from Jacob:
27 For this is my covenant unto them, when I shall take away their sins.
28 As concerning the gospel, they are enemies for your sakes: but as touching the election, they are beloved for the father's sakes.
While the unbelieving branches were broken off...believing gentiles are grafted right in...
look how he follows up at the bottom of this chapter;
30 For as ye in times past have not believed God, yet have now obtained mercy through their unbelief:
31 Even so have these also now not believed, that through your mercy they also may obtain mercy.
32
For God hath concluded them all in unbelief,[those jews who were rejected]
that he might have mercy upon all.{all elect gentiles worldwide]
He had started explaining this already in chapter 9/10...that is why it should be viewed together...because he concludes in chap 15 with this;
8 Now I say that Jesus Christ was a minister of the circumcision for the truth of God, to confirm the promises made unto the fathers:
9 And that the Gentiles might glorify God for his mercy; as it is written, For this cause I will confess to thee among the Gentiles, and sing unto thy name.
10 And again he saith, Rejoice, ye Gentiles, with his people.
11 And again, Praise the Lord, all ye Gentiles; and laud him, all ye people.
12 And again, Esaias saith, There shall be a root of Jesse, and he that shall rise to reign over the Gentiles; in him shall the Gentiles trust.
25 For I would not, brethren, that ye should be ignorant of this mystery, lest ye should be wise in your own conceits; that blindness in part is happened to Israel, until the fulness of the Gentiles be come in.
26 And so all Israel shall be saved: as it is written, There shall come out of Sion the Deliverer, and shall turn away ungodliness from Jacob:
27 For this is my covenant unto them, when I shall take away their sins.
28 As concerning the gospel, they are enemies for your sakes: but as touching the election, they are beloved for the father's sakes.
29 For the gifts and calling of God are without repentance.
30 For as ye in times past have not believed God, yet have now obtained mercy through their unbelief:
31 Even so have these also now not believed, that through your mercy they also may obtain mercy.
Some see vs 25/26 as
after this manner[ ot saints, elect remnant of jews, and those saved if God has mercy on them just before the last day]
4But what saith the answer of God unto him? I have reserved to myself seven thousand men, who have not bowed the knee to the image of Baal.
5 Even so then at this present time also there is a remnant according to the election of grace.
I see it slightly different however....
I see Jesus as the Servant of the Lord isa 49 as the true Israel who unites all saved among Israel, the[ tecknon], as well as all gentiles grafted in worldwide....all One Body, the Christian Israel.....the Israel of God......Jesus as the head, believers are the one body who will assemble on the last day....the one true church.
Now go back over all the Ot verses paul quotes, those 61 verses I pulled out in this thread...read them from start to finish and compare them to what I just laid out for you.
Notice beam-up and his hyper dispensational view tries to offer ex.19:5-6 rather than 1 pet 2:9-11 as it transfers from the first exodus with Moses[ the shadow], to the second exodus in Jesus{the reality}
Take your time...the Covenant promises that God passed on to Abraham , Issac , and Jacob...were always designed to go worldwide...Abram's name was changed...to father of many nations Abraham.
Jesus provides the fullness in the gospel of The Kingdom coming to earth and us being translated into it.
Notice beam-up and his hyper dispensational view tries to offer ex.19:5-6 rather than 1 pet 2:9-11 as it transfers from the first exodus with Moses[ the shadow], to the second exodus in Jesus{the reality}
Take your time...the Covenant promises that God passed on to Abraham , Issac , and Jacob...were always designed to go worldwide...Abram's name was changed...to father of many nations Abraham.
Jesus provides the fullness in the gospel of The Kingdom coming to earth and us being translated into it.
Sure...watch;
49 Listen, O isles, unto me; and hearken, ye people, from far; The Lord hath called me from the womb; from the bowels of my mother hath he made mention of my name.
2 And he hath made my mouth like a sharp sword; in the shadow of his hand hath he hid me, and made me a polished shaft; in his quiver hath he hid me;
3 And said unto me, Thou art my servant, O Israel, in whom I will be glorified.
4 Then I said, I have laboured in vain, I have spent my strength for nought, and in vain: yet surely my judgment is with the Lord, and my work with my God.
5 And now, saith the Lord that formed me from the womb to be his servant, to bring Jacob again to him, Though Israel be not gathered, yet shall I be glorious in the eyes of the Lord, and my God shall be my strength.
6 And he said, It is a light thing that thou shouldest be my servant to raise up the tribes of Jacob, and to restore the preserved of Israel: I will also give thee for a light to the Gentiles, that thou mayest be my salvation unto the end of the earth.
7 Thus saith the Lord, the Redeemer of Israel, and his Holy One, to him whom man despiseth, to him whom the nation abhorreth, to a servant of rulers, Kings shall see and arise, princes also shall worship, because of the Lord that is faithful, and the Holy One of Israel, and he shall choose thee.
8 Thus saith the Lord, In an acceptable time have I heard thee, and in a day of salvation have I helped thee: and I will preserve thee, and give thee for a covenant of the people, to establish the earth, to cause to inherit the desolate heritages;
This is quoted in the NT....
2cor6;
2 (For he saith, I have heard thee in a time accepted, and in the day of salvation have I succoured thee: behold, now is the accepted time; behold, now is the day of salvation.)
Paul identifies the Servant and His work with the Nt. gospel of the Kingdom.
And again in Acts 13;
46 Then Paul and Barnabas waxed bold, and said, It was necessary that the word of God should first have been spoken to you: but seeing ye put it from you, and judge yourselves unworthy of everlasting life, lo, we turn to the Gentiles.
47 For so hath the Lord commanded us, saying, I have set thee to be a light of the Gentiles, that thou shouldest be for salvation unto the ends of the earth.
48 And when the Gentiles heard this, they were glad, and glorified the word of the Lord: and as many as were ordained to eternal life believed.
The Holy Spirit applies it for us directly to the apostolic preaching of the kingdom In Christ.
Why does Jesus Tell John that he is a friend of the Bridegroom and not part of the Bride?
Mark 2:19 Jesus said to them, “The wedding guests cannot fast while the bridegroom is with them, can they? As long as they have the bridegroom with them they do not fast.
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Mark 2:19 Jesus said to them, “The wedding guests cannot fast while the bridegroom is with them, can they? As long as they have the bridegroom with them they do not fast.
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Now..if you want to be blessed comb through the rest of isa and see how the emphasis is on...Gentile s, not Israel..here are some examples;
isa49;
22 Thus saith the Lord God, Behold, I will lift up mine hand to the Gentiles, and set up my standard to the people: and they shall bring thy sons in their arms, and thy daughters shall be carried upon their shoulders.
23 And kings shall be thy nursing fathers, and their queens thy nursing mothers: they shall bow down to thee with their face toward the earth, and lick up the dust of thy feet; and thou shalt know that I am the Lord: for they shall not be ashamed that wait for me.
isa52;
7 How beautiful upon the mountains are the feet of him that bringeth good tidings, that publisheth peace; that bringeth good tidings of good, that publisheth salvation; that saith unto Zion, Thy God reigneth!
8 Thy watchmen shall lift up the voice; with the voice together shall they sing: for they shall see eye to eye, when the Lord shall bring again Zion.
9 Break forth into joy, sing together, ye waste places of Jerusalem: for the Lord hath comforted his people, he hath redeemed Jerusalem.
10 The Lord hath made bare his holy arm in the eyes of all the nations; and all the ends of the earth shall see the salvation of our God.
isa54;
54 Sing, O barren, thou that didst not bear; break forth into singing, and cry aloud, thou that didst not travail with child: for more are the children of the desolate than the children of the married wife, saith the Lord.
2 Enlarge the place of thy tent, and let them stretch forth the curtains of thine habitations: spare not, lengthen thy cords, and strengthen thy stakes;
3 For thou shalt break forth on the right hand and on the left; and thy seed shall inherit the Gentiles, and make the desolate cities to be inhabited.
4 Fear not; for thou shalt not be ashamed: neither be thou confounded; for thou shalt not be put to shame: for thou shalt forget the shame of thy youth, and shalt not remember the reproach of thy widowhood any more.
5 For thy Maker is thine husband; the Lord of hosts is his name; and thy Redeemer the Holy One of Israel; The God of the whole earth shall he be
called.
isa60
Isaiah 60King James Version (KJV)
60 Arise, shine; for thy light is come, and the glory of the Lord is risen upon thee.
2 For, behold, the darkness shall cover the earth, and gross darkness the people: but the Lord shall arise upon thee, and his glory shall be seen upon thee.
3 And the Gentiles shall come to thy light, and kings to the brightness of thy rising.
isa49;
22 Thus saith the Lord God, Behold, I will lift up mine hand to the Gentiles, and set up my standard to the people: and they shall bring thy sons in their arms, and thy daughters shall be carried upon their shoulders.
23 And kings shall be thy nursing fathers, and their queens thy nursing mothers: they shall bow down to thee with their face toward the earth, and lick up the dust of thy feet; and thou shalt know that I am the Lord: for they shall not be ashamed that wait for me.
isa52;
7 How beautiful upon the mountains are the feet of him that bringeth good tidings, that publisheth peace; that bringeth good tidings of good, that publisheth salvation; that saith unto Zion, Thy God reigneth!
8 Thy watchmen shall lift up the voice; with the voice together shall they sing: for they shall see eye to eye, when the Lord shall bring again Zion.
9 Break forth into joy, sing together, ye waste places of Jerusalem: for the Lord hath comforted his people, he hath redeemed Jerusalem.
10 The Lord hath made bare his holy arm in the eyes of all the nations; and all the ends of the earth shall see the salvation of our God.
isa54;
54 Sing, O barren, thou that didst not bear; break forth into singing, and cry aloud, thou that didst not travail with child: for more are the children of the desolate than the children of the married wife, saith the Lord.
2 Enlarge the place of thy tent, and let them stretch forth the curtains of thine habitations: spare not, lengthen thy cords, and strengthen thy stakes;
3 For thou shalt break forth on the right hand and on the left; and thy seed shall inherit the Gentiles, and make the desolate cities to be inhabited.
4 Fear not; for thou shalt not be ashamed: neither be thou confounded; for thou shalt not be put to shame: for thou shalt forget the shame of thy youth, and shalt not remember the reproach of thy widowhood any more.
5 For thy Maker is thine husband; the Lord of hosts is his name; and thy Redeemer the Holy One of Israel; The God of the whole earth shall he be
called.
isa60
Isaiah 60King James Version (KJV)
60 Arise, shine; for thy light is come, and the glory of the Lord is risen upon thee.
2 For, behold, the darkness shall cover the earth, and gross darkness the people: but the Lord shall arise upon thee, and his glory shall be seen upon thee.
3 And the Gentiles shall come to thy light, and kings to the brightness of thy rising.
Maybe I'm dull of hearing...but I still see Romans 9 ' s perspective on a corporate level. It was God's plan that PreIncarnate Christ would receive a People to Worship and Adore Him as a Love Gift from the Father. And the Glorified Risen Christ would receive both Jews AND Gentiles as His Inheritance.
We were all fitted for destruction, lest God would show mercy on us. The Jews particularly were Chosen out of all the vessels of wrath for God to Show Mercy on. And now because of National Israel's rejection of Christ, salvation has no National Banner...everyone in Christ is God's people....grafted into the olive tree...being Born Again into Christ...into the Kingdom...into the Promised SEED.
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We were all fitted for destruction, lest God would show mercy on us. The Jews particularly were Chosen out of all the vessels of wrath for God to Show Mercy on. And now because of National Israel's rejection of Christ, salvation has no National Banner...everyone in Christ is God's people....grafted into the olive tree...being Born Again into Christ...into the Kingdom...into the Promised SEED.
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What do you mean a corporate level... You are not suggesting every jewish person is saved are you
Groups, not individuals....God uses people in this Chapter but is relating it to nations....like Jacob would be Israelites and Esau would be the Edomites....
God chose the People of Abraham...not Egyptians, nor the Amorites, but He chose the Jews.
And when I read predestination I don't see individuals I see Either the Church or Israel was predestined or elected to be the Body of People (although I understand the individuals make up the group). It's like saying ok...I want to be a Canadian, but must happen? Ok, boom I'm Canadian...and come to find out...God predestined all Canadians to live on Mars after the earth is destroyed. SO in predestination, regardless of the individual, Anyone who was a Canadian at the end of this age was going to Live on Mars because God ordained it before Canada was a nation.
Same thing for Isreal and the Church.
God ordained Israel to be His chosen People. God ordained the Church to be His Chosen people.
He ordained them to be One in Christ.
And Those who are In Christ will receive the blessings God ordained in the Kingdom of God from before Time began.
He didn't predestine people. He Predestined the Church to be The Body and Bride of Christ.
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beameup
Member
The destiny of the Church (the Body of Christ, composed of individual Gentiles & Jews) is not a "Priesthood" Kingdom located in what we call the "Holy Land". Exodus 19:5-6 assures Israel
that they will become a "Holy Nation" and a "Kingdom of Priests".
For the gifts and calling of God are without repentance (irrevocable). Romans 11:29
"As concerning the gospel, they are enemies for your sakes: but as touching the election, they are beloved for the fathers' sakes [Abraham, Isaac, Jacob, etc.]" Romans 11:28
"blindness in part is happened to Israel, until the fullness of the Gentiles be come in.
And so all Israel shall be saved" and "God is able to graft them in again."
This is referred to as "hyper-dispensationalism" by some?
"Be not highminded, but fear" and "take heed lest he also spare not thee"
that they will become a "Holy Nation" and a "Kingdom of Priests".
For the gifts and calling of God are without repentance (irrevocable). Romans 11:29
"As concerning the gospel, they are enemies for your sakes: but as touching the election, they are beloved for the fathers' sakes [Abraham, Isaac, Jacob, etc.]" Romans 11:28
"blindness in part is happened to Israel, until the fullness of the Gentiles be come in.
And so all Israel shall be saved" and "God is able to graft them in again."
This is referred to as "hyper-dispensationalism" by some?
"Be not highminded, but fear" and "take heed lest he also spare not thee"
Jon,
I believe this to be error. It has some truth but this reasoning cannot be sustained...
Before trying to tackle this and untangle it, it might be better to concentrate on the 60 plus verses offered here and see what it clearly in view....that is that the Church that Jesus is now building is Gods plan A.
As far as your corporate theory goes rom9:1-22...blows it out of the water.....NOT all.Israel is of Israel......Jacob....not Esau...not nations, not the edomites...is not in view here...this is not malachi but romans....
In Jeremiah 1....before I formed YOU in the womb....I knew YOU and ordained YOU to be a prophet....very individual.
News flash.....Israel failed....Peter describes the church as the Holy nation...1 pet2......John in Rev 1.
To go back to exodus.....hyper...yes