Romans 9 and election - another take

Hi Nwells

There are many drawn but still reject;
If God is selective then God is a respecter of men.
I see election as universal and Salvation dependant on your trust in Christ. This verse shows that Salvation is come to all Gentiles;

Rom 11:11 I say then, Have they stumbled that they should fall? God forbid: but rather through their fall salvation is come unto the Gentiles, for to provoke them to jealousy.

This is our election and it in no way guarantees Salvation. All election is ,is Salvation being made available.

I disagree God draws all men to Him;
Joh 12:32 And I, if I be lifted up from the earth, will draw all men unto me.
What would be the purpose of drawing all men then telling them nope I didn't grant it to you.

The ones who he was talking about were some of the Jews that were broken out of the tree so that we could be grafted in. They were broken out of the tree for unbelief. They rejected Christ and lost there chance for Salvation because of it. Of course it wasn't granted to them because they rejected Christ.. We have to remember that the 4 gospels were written to Jews. Paul is who brought the gospel to us.

I disagree. They did not believe because God had taken there ability away because they rejected Him. He blinded those who rejected Him. So they could not find there way.
May God Bless You;
Mike

 

Hi Nwells;

The word draw translated from the Greek word "hel-koo'-o," isn't even in the codex in which the NASV was translated from. In fact it was added by Wesscott and Hort for purposes of grammar. Actually as much as this word has been argued over you'd think we were dragged to God kicking and screaming. When the word "Motivated" or "Enticed" would have been a more accurate. We are not predestined unalterably for Salvation. It is ridiculous to assume that we are. It boils down to can God create something even He can't change. Some say God never changes. This is true but He does change His mind Gen 6:6. Let's not for get the story of Lot as well, and His reaction to the elect who rejected Him. They were predestined as well. But God changed His plans for them as well
May God Bless you;
Mike

 

Let me define what I mean:

Romans 9:11 (NASB95)
"for though the twins were not yet born and had not done anything good or bad, so that God’s purpose according to His choice would stand, not because of works but because of Him who calls,"

God selected Jacob rather than Esau - not because one did something better or was smarter than the other - but because God wanted to use Jacob.

If Paul wanted to make it clear that God makes His selection based on what men do - this would have been the perfect place for him to do so - yet Paul makes extra effort to tell us, no, it was not by works or of anything these two men did - for God made His choice before they did anything.

God's selection in this case did not respect men - for they did nothing to make God chose one way or the other. God chose according to His own purpose.

Now, if God looked down the corrador of time and saw that Jacob did better things than did Esau and made His discision based on what He saw - THAT would be against God's own character - for it is written:

Deuteronomy 10:17 (NASB95)
“For the Lord your God is the God of gods and the Lord of lords, the great, the mighty, and the awesome God who does not show partiality nor take a bribe."

The word partiality meaning an unfair preference for one person or thing over another.

We differ here because of what we believe about the state of man.

My theology on this subject can be summed up in this verse:
"For the mind set on the flesh is death...because the mind set on the flesh is hostile toward God; for it does not subject itself to the law of God, for it is not even able to do so, and those who are in the flesh cannot please God."

Read Romans 8:6-9 for the whole thought (I cut to show only the parts about the flesh since that is what we are talking about).

If someone believes in God - if someone has faith in Him - can that person be hostile to God?

Paul said that all who are in the flesh are hostile to God - somewhere there must be a change for one of the flesh to be born of the Spirit to that he is able to submit himself to God and please God.

I believe God is the one who makes us alive - and that choice is not based on anything I did, will do - but wholly on God's purpose.

If Jesus was talking about the Jews as a whole - why did John mention one of the reasons Jesus said what He did was because Jesus knew Judas was going to betray Him? In the context I believe we are safe to say Jesus was talking directly to those who were listening (as Judas was most likely listening as well as those who were listening but did not believe on Christ) - not making some infurence to the fact that Israel would be broken from the tree and the gentiles grafted in.

Ok - so if God calls everyone - what makes some people come to Him and others reject Him?

It is better to come to Christ than to reject Him - so what influenced those who chose to follow - what was different that they figured out what was best for them (being that they now know God and will live with Him eternally)?

If God calls all people in the same way and leaves it up to men then only those men who figure out that it is in God that true satisfaction flows and joys unspeakable that will come - and the rest are fools.

As I talked about in the beginning of this message - I believe if God called all men equally - either all men would be saved or none would be saved.

How can we say it is equal if it is up to men - for who made the mind of man so that He could understand the Word of God? God did - God formed every human, and so those who are not as smart - are not as smart because God made them that way. So in essense God prefers smart people because only the smart figure out that it is good to believe in Christ.

Rather I believe no one seeks after God - that no one does anything good - that we are dead, we cannot raise ourselves from the dead - we need to be re-born, but we cannot go back and be re-born for it is a spirtual rebirth that is needed and no baby chooses to be born - He is born!

Really all of this comes down to the ability of man to come to Christ - can a man who is in sin, and a man who is dead in his sin make himself alive by crying out to God "I believe!" Or must God first say, "Rise, for I have given you new life" and then the man says "I believe, for God has made me alive - God has opened my eyes so I can see His beauty!"

I say it is God's work - He is the first causation - we are the second.

God's actions are not limited by ours - Our actions are limited by God's

 

Mike:

Can you give me an outside source for your information on the word "draw"?

I looked around and did not find anything like you said - the word is in the King James (the old one)

Here's the Strongs info on the word:
1670 helkuo { hel-koo’-o} or helko { hel’-ko}

probably akin to 138; TDNT - 2:503, 227; v

AV - draw 8; 8

GK - 1816 { ἑλκύω }

1) to draw, drag off
2) metaph., to draw by inward power, lead, impel

Strong, J. (1996). The exhaustive concordance of the Bible : Showing every word of the test of the common English version of the canonical books, and every occurence of each word in regular order. (electronic ed.). Ontario: Woodside Bible Fellowship.

 

God convicts and convinces the sinner of His need of Christ without indwelling that person. The Holy Spirit draws, leads and compels that one to become contrite before His holy Person. This we call repentance as in being sorry for past sins committed with the intent that that person will turn from his sins in the future. When the person invites Jesus into their heart/life God the Spirit regenerates that lost one. Any other view is Divine manipulation which would thwart the truth of choice.

You will find no conscripts in Heaven.

 

Hi Nwells;

The New Testament in the original Greek. The text revised by. Brooke Foss Westcott, D.D. Fenton John Anthony Hort, D.D. New York. Harper & Brothers, Franklin Square. 1885.
OCLC: 36237274

What a lot of people do not understand, is that the original Greek, or Ancient Greek is not the same as modern. Strongs is a good reference book and it serves a purpose, but it is for modern Greek. Ancient Greek is a more pure Language in that it only has a root based meaning for each word. Which is why I use it. So many times I've seen people argue over the meaning of a word in the Bibles such as predestination. They look to Webster's for that meaning and assume that they have the correct one. Not so; Many Ancient Greek words are having there meanings changed because the English language is changing all the time. You cannot apply the meanings from a modern language and come away with truth from the original manuscripts. Ancient Greek doesn't change because there are no newer meanings for each Ancient Greek word. They had no dictionary. Language was limited to what could be understood as root meanings. This way the whole truth is kept.
At any rate you can find what you want to know in the New Testament I just listed above.
May God Bless You;
Mike
P.S. In my post before this one I said that the word draw doesn't even appear in the codex. What I meant was it doesn't appear in John 6:44

 

Mike:

So - how is it that there is a complete thought in John 6:44 if the word draw or helkuo does not exist?

What is in its place?

-Nathan

 

There are just so many Bible verses that indicate that God makes provision for every person to be saved. It is a matter of our own choice or rejection.

Take this verse for instance,

Jn:1:9: That was the true Light, which lighteth every man that cometh into the world.

Notice that Jesus is the light that lights "EVERY MAN" that comes into the world.

Jn:10:9: I am the door: by me if any man enter in, he shall be saved, and shall go in and out, and find pasture.

Notice that Jesus said that if ANY MAN would enter in, he would be saved.

Jn:6:51: I am the living bread which came down from heaven: if any man eat of this bread, he shall live for ever: and the bread that I will give is my flesh, which I will give for the life of the world.

Once again, if ANY MAN eat of this bread he would live forever.

Rv:3:20: Behold, I stand at the door, and knock: if any man hear my voice, and open the door, I will come in to him, and will sup with him, and he with me.

If ANY MAN hears the voice of Christ and opens the door, Jesus will come into Him.

If any man enters in, if any man eats of the bread of life, if any man opens the door...

It is up to US.

1Tm:2:3-6:
3: For this is good and acceptable in the sight of God our Saviour;
4: Who will have all men to be saved&lt, and to come unto the knowledge of the truth.
5: For there is one God, and one mediator between God and men, the man Christ Jesus;
6: Who gave himself a ransom FOR ALL to be testified in due time.


Rv:22:17: And the Spirit and the bride say, Come. And let him that heareth say, Come. And let him that is athirst come. And WHOSOEVER WILL, let him take the water of life freely.


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[ December 01, 2004, 03:22 PM: Message edited by: Claudia_T ]

 

And on the other side of the question, it is ALSO up to US whether our "election" will do us any good, because we can be lost.

Notice in 2 Peter Chapter 1 that we are specifically admonished that in order for our election to remain "sure"
...there are specific thing that WE MUST DO, and that ONLY IF we do all these things that have to do with character development... will we THEN have an entrance into the everlasting kingdom:


2Peter chapter 1:
3: According as his divine power hath given unto us all things that pertain unto life and godliness, through the knowledge of him that hath called us to glory and virtue:
4: Whereby are given unto us exceeding great and precious promises: that by these ye might be partakers of the divine nature, having escaped the corruption that is in the world through lust.
5: And beside this, giving all diligence, add to your faith virtue; and to virtue knowledge;
6: And to knowledge temperance; and to temperance patience; and to patience godliness;
7: And to godliness brotherly kindness; and to brotherly kindness charity.
8: For if these things be in you, and abound, they make you that ye shall neither be barren nor unfruitful in the knowledge of our Lord Jesus Christ.
9: But he that lacketh these things is blind, and cannot see afar off, and hath forgotten that he was purged from his old sins.
10: Wherefore the rather, brethren, give diligence to make your calling and election sure: for if ye do these things, ye shall never fall:
11: For so an entrance shall be ministered unto you abundantly into the everlasting kingdom of our Lord and Saviour Jesus Christ.

So many Christians today try to make it God's responsibility as to whether or not we are "elected" when in reality it is our own, and not only that but then they try to make it God's responsibility for us to be saved as well, and they seem to ignore all the Bible verses that indicate otherwise.

"Today if YOU hear His voice, harden not your hearts." God hardens no man's heart, we harden our own when we choice to reject the wooings and pleadings of the Holy Spirit. Yes God does word things in a way in other Bible verses that SEEM to say that HE hardens hearts but if we compare scripture with scripture we get quite a different picture. We choose whether or not to listen to God and if we decide to reject His messages of mercy and warnings, then God steps aside and allows our hearts to be hardened, He leaves us to our own devices. Just like it says in Romans Chapter 1 verse 28 "God gave them over to a reprobate mind"


Claudia
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Col:1:23: If ye continue in the faith grounded and settled, and be not moved away from the hope of the gospel, which ye have heard, and which was preached to every creature which is under heaven; whereof I Paul am made a minister

Did you notice it says the Gospel is preached to EVERY CREATURE UNDER HEAVEN? Not to a chosen few.

"The grace of God that bringeth salvation hath appeared to all men ." "This is good and acceptable in the sight of God our Saviour; who will have all men to be saved, and to come unto the knowledge of the truth. For there is one God, and one mediator between God and men, the man Christ Jesus; who gave Himself a ransom for all ." Titus 2:11; 1 Timothy 2:3-6.

It just makes me cringe, this idea that God created some to be saved and others to be lost. Honestly, it is no wonder that so many unbelievers reject Christianity when such a terrible view of God is put forth to the world.

 

Hi Claudia_T;
It has become so encouraging to me to know I'm not the only one who views Salvation in such a clear light. May I say Amen, Sister in Christ.
May God Bless You;
Mike

 

Hi Nwells;

I'm not a Ancient Greek professor so I wouldn't even begin to try and teach Greek here on this forum. I'm just not qualified. I will offer an explanation Maybe Pator Larry or someone more knowledgable than I could do a better Job. they can step in if they like. But I'll do my best to explain so here goes.

Sometimes in translation from one language to another there is no complete translation for a given word only a partical. Sometimes there is no translation at all for that word. Sometimes the word meant is just plainly worn right off the page. Then sometimes it takes many English words to explain or define the meaning of just one word and other times many Greek words can all be translated in to just one English word. Manuscripts are not always complete. a good translation takes many seperate manuscripts in order to get a good rendering of the text. You can try looking at some manuscripts at a musem or on the net or even or at your local Christian book store. They should have some pictures of what they look like. These manuscripts are very old so you won't ever be allowed to touch any of them, or inspect them your self, but they will let you look at photographs of them. I think it's Michigan state that has the largest collection but don't quote me on that. I've also been told that the RCC owns most of them. It would take the Pope Himself to get you in to look at theres no doubt.
This is my best explanation Please allow for error as I said I'm not a master of Ancient Greek yet.
May God Bless you;
Mike

 

Claudia T,

I have not thought about the verses that you elevated for us to review. Accepting them just as He gave them to us is the best approach to His Word.

If Christians knew how terrible Hell is and that those who go there will be there forever, no Christian would ever say that God chose some for Heaven and pushes the majority of humanity over the edge into His vengeful place of hatred against His enemies, namely sinners. They are damned forever because of His awesome holiness, and because those who enter there have rejected His Son. [John 3:18]

Your posts are correct.

Berrian, Th.D.

 

As has been explained to you many times, it your position that makes God a respecter of men. Why does anybody believe? Because they were more afraid, more intellectual, more spiritual? Does God draw on the basis of foreseen faith? That would be the definition of partiality right there, because God is basing drawing on something intrinsic to others that others do not have.

The only way the election makes God a respecter of men is if God owes something to one man that He does not give to another man on the basis of something in that person. That is exactly the Arminian position. The Reformed position says that the ground of the drawing is the giving and that the ground of the giving is in God without respect to anything in man at all, even faith, even wickedness. That is not God being a respecter of men at all, because God does not give and draw on the basis of anything instrinsic in any man vs. what is in another.

Absolutely, but since "the world" doesn't mean what you say it means anyway, this objection is defeated. If the "world" only means "all kinds of men, not just Jews," then the passage makes perfect sense. Did God direct the spread of the gospel in Acts, Mike? If you say, yes, and you should, since the text says so, then all men aren't being drawn, because to be drawn one must hear and understand. The only way your way works is if universalism is true.

From what part of the text have you deduced this?

No, the text tells them why they did not believe. It says nothing of this. You are reading something into the text that is not there. You must remember that this discourse should be understood in the same way as the persons who first heard it, and they were in the synagogue and Capernaum, not readers of Paul.

No, they were rejected because they were not given, drawn, etc. This text does NOT indicate they were not given, drawn, and believe because they rejected, it indicates they rejected because they were not given, drawn, come, or believe. The text goes on to say that EVERYONE who is instructed comes to Jesus. According to the text all that come believe. Since these people were listening to Jesus, they had come to Jesus, clearly. Why then do they not believe? Because they were not given spiritually, drawn internally, and because they did not have the ability to come to Jesus in a believing manner. Nothing in this text says anything about God taking their ability to believe away. It simply says that unless one is drawn one does not have the ability to believe, but that all who are drawn also believe, why, because they are the ones given and the ones that are instructed, etc. In other words, because we do not have the ability to come, we are drawn by God. John 6:44 explains the "how" of the "why" of vs. 37 - 39. We do not believe because we do not come. We do not come because we do have the ability to do so. Therefore, God must draw us. God draws, and we come, and we believe, not only that ALL those who are drawn, WILL come, and WILL believe, and WILL be raised on the last day. You ave turned this entire text backwards. What a horrible exegesis.

Actually, Luke was most likely written to a Gentile audience. John's gospel was likely received at Ephesus, which was a mixed congregation of Jews and Gentiles. His gospel is littered with references to the inclusion of Jews and Gentiles because that church is also the same church that struggled with both the Judaizer heresy and Gnosticism.

Read the entire passage. In 6:36 he tells them that some of them do not believe. Vs. 6:37 through 45 tell them why they do not believe, not why they are not saved. You have turned the text completely around on itself. It is true they are not saved...because they do not believe. Why? Because they do not come. Why? Because they are not drawn, and they are not able to come unless drawn. Why are they not drawn? Because they are not given. Why must they be given and drawn in order to come and believe? Because they are not able to do so.

Those who are believe are given, ALL of them. They are also the ones drawn, ALL of them. They are also the ones instructed, and all of them are raised at the last day. Nothing in this text supports your position, not one line.

No, the word means “picked out, chosen,” and is used of Christ (Luke 23:35), angels (1 Timothy 5:21), Christians (Matthew 24:22), the elect whom God chose (Mark 13:20); the elect who are gathered (Mark 13:27), etc.

Election is a picking out, a choosing.

Well, I do understand, and I know that Liddell and Scott is a classical lexicon, and it understands the word the same as Strong's. However,BDAG and Louw-Nida Lexicon Based on Semantic Domains are both koine lexicons. Now, before I come back here in a day or two, I would like to challenge you to find a koine lexicon (hint, I have named two standard ones for you) that does not render the word the way the others do, and, if they do, explain why they do so I'm reasonably certain you will not find a koine lexicon that renders the word the way you do, because I know that Bible dictionaries written from an Arminian slant do not render the word as you.

True, but the word for violent dragging like this is "suro," not "helkuo," anyway.

How do you know this?

The only way this is true is if you impose your own theology on the text. That is called an innovation. The same word is used of dragging a net (John 21:6), dragging persons into court (Acts 16:19) and drawing a sword. Therefore, you have Peter enticing or motivating his sword, entice or motivating a net of fish, Paul and Silas being motivated or enticed into court, Paul being motivated or enticed out of the city, and rich men in James 2:6 oppressing you and personally motivating or enticing you into court!

The word for "entice" is "holokleros," the word for "persuade" is "peitho" or "anapeithos." Changing words to reflect your position is called changing God's own Word. The word is "helkuo," it means to drag or draw, but not the violent type of dragging indicated by "suro," not "motivate or entice." Those are completely different words that, to my knowledge, are not in any rendering of John 6:44 at all. Deal with the text without changing lexical definitions. As for your comments about the addition of the word in the text, I have emailed a personal friend who knows about such matters. When he gets back with me, I will let you all know.

 

Both the New and Old Testaments sets us straight as to the reality that God is impartial toward His created beings. 'There is no respecter of person with God.' His love reaches and touches all persons. If the Godhead were prejudiced, He would have to negate His attributes of Divine justice/fairness and that of His love for the lost. [John 3:16]

Deuteronomy 10:17;Proverbs 24:23; 28:21; Romans 2:11; and Ephesians 6:9 all indicates that God is impartial and that Christians should not play favorites with human beings. The Christian God has the attribute of Divine justice and infinite love for every person, and keeps his promise as to everlasting life. He is patient with sinners, [Romans 2:4] and is not pleased that any lost one should go to Hell, but would rather see all sinners repenting. [II Peter 3:9]

Divine justice and His vengeance will be unleashed at the Great White Throne Judgment, [Revelation 20:11] which is the judgment day for those who refuse to repent of their sins. But for now He waits for the lost to return to His throne that He might have mercy on the penitent. [John 3:18a]

Remember John 3:17 does not say 'For God sent His Son into the world to save the elect and to damn those who are found in their sins on the last day, but rather He makes it very clear by offering these words before His ascension into Heaven. 'For God sent not His Son into the world TO CONDEMN THE WORLD, but that the world through Him {Christ} might be saved.'

God would not tell us as His children to be fair and impartial and to 'love our enemies' if He did not have this high a standard for Himself. He does love all sinners and is unbias toward them in that which we call time. But when time is ended His judgment and justice will be experienced at the Great White Throne judgment where the lost will be turn into the 'lake of fire.' [Revelation 20:15]

 

ILUVLIGHT,

This comes directly from my old New Testament professor at Southeastern Seminary, whom I emailed for his help in resolving this matter. I will point out to you that this particular person is held as one of the leading authorities on textual criticism in the Southern Baptist Convention, he specializes in the Byzantine texttype itself, if memory serves correctly. He is intimately familar with the codices, et.al. in question.

You wrote:

The word draw translated from the Greek word "hel-koo'-o," isn't even in the codex in which the NASV was translated from. In fact it was added by Westcott and Hort for purposes of grammar.

He replies:

You later modified your statement from "the codex" to John 6:44 itself.

He replies:

Now, let's see, Mike. You've made a claim about the text itself that has no basis in fact. You've changed the lexical definition of the verb, andyou have exegeted the entire passage exactly in reverse, claiming that they were not given, come, or drawn BECAUSE THEY DID NOT BELIEVE, contrary to the text that clearly teaches that those who believe do so BECAUSE THEY COME, ARE DRAWN, AND GIVEN by God alone. (Not only that, you, who disbelieve in eternal security/perseverance of the saints, have also missed the entire bit about the fact that the same ones that believe, et.al. will all be raised on the last day and that all who are given, drawn, and come WILL believe without exception.

I STRONGLY suggest you revisit your exegesis of John 6.

 

Ray:
You said:
'There is no respecter of person with God.' His love reaches and touches all persons. If the Godhead were prejudiced, He would have to negate His attributes of Divine justice/fairness and that of His love for the lost. [John 3:16]

Let me try and point something out and see if it makes sense.

There is one man, we will call him man A, who hears the Gospel and believes.

There is another man, we will call him man B, who hears the Gospel and rejects it.

IF God has foreseen that man A will respond to the gospel and therefore chooses that man and God also has foreseen that man B will reject the gospel and therefore passes over him - WHO is it that God has respected?

God in this case HAS respected the will of man - basing His choice on something that a man did - He based His choice on a GOOD thing that a man did - for it is a good thing to believe and a bad thing to reject - is it not?

How could it be that God makes His choice based on a good thing that man A did and a bad thing that man B did? Meaning that because man A did something good - God gave man A what he deserved, that being salvation and God gave man B what he deserved, hell because man B did something bad.

But there is a problem - for if this is true then salvation is based on justice and not mercy. Justice being that which is deserved and mercy being something good being freely given to someone who does not deserve it.

The Bible clearly states that our being saved is not justice - but it is based on the great mercy of God (meaning we did absolutely NOTHING to deserve it, for the moment we deserve it, it ceases to be mercy).

Titus 3:5-7 (NASB95)
"He saved us, not on the basis of deeds which we have done in righteousness, but according to His mercy, by the washing of regeneration and renewing by the Holy Spirit,
whom He poured out upon us richly through Jesus Christ our Savior,
so that being justified by His grace we would be made heirs according to the hope of eternal life."

You are right - God is not partial in His free choice - for it is not based on what we do (for then we would deserve to go to heaven and there would be no need for the mercy of God) but it is based on His free choice for His own good pleasure.


You said:
God would not tell us as His children to be fair and impartial and to 'love our enemies' if He did not have this high a standard for Himself.

Just a quick thought on this. It is bad for me to think I am the best? Yes, that is called pride (Proverbs 8:13b
"...Pride and arrogance and the evil way And the perverted mouth, I hate.")

But is it bad for God to think He is the best? It is bad for God to love Himself the most? No, because He IS the best and He SHOULD love Himself the most because He is God - if He loves anything more than He loves Himself that would be a form of idolatry!

Isaiah 42:8 (NASB95)
"I am the Lord, that is My name; I will not give My glory to another, Nor My praise to graven images."

How does this work in your thoughts? How can God have mercy on one who did something in order to receive the mercy - or did something to receive his salvation based on justice - that is heretical

 

I would prefer to say that the man who receives Christ did the right thing, while the non-elect will have done the wrong thing leading to their eternal demise. God's will is not to ' . . . condemn the world but to save it.' [John 3:17] The Spirit of God prods the sinner to do the right thing. We cannot bring any 'good' before Him in trying to secure salvation. 'Our righteousness is but filthy rags.'

As you have said, we are saved by His mercy; but His justice assures everyone of the right [John 1:12]and responsibility [Acts 17:30] to bow before Christ.

You are 100% right!

Titus 3:5-7 (NASB95)
"He saved us, not on the basis of deeds which we have done in
righteousness, but according to His mercy, by the washing of
regeneration and renewing by the Holy Spirit,
whom He poured out upon us richly through Jesus Christ our Savior,
so that being justified by His grace we would be made heirs
according to the hope of eternal life."

One of my most favorite Scriptures!

Wait! I never said that God makes His free choice. His choice is that all sinners find new life in Him. [I Timothy 2:6, Hebrews 2:9, II Peter 3:9] Jesus is sovereign and has so deemed it that men and women are required to believe on the Son. [John 3:16 & 18]

I agree with you, my brother, but I think the last sentence is hypothetical, but I could be wrong.

Isaiah 42:8 (NASB95)
"I am the Lord, that is My name; I will not give My glory to another, Nor
My praise to graven images."

True! Yes!

The justice of God is untarnished because He died for the whole world of lost ones. We do no more than He asks us to do and that is believe. [Act 16:31] Is believing in Jesus heretical? I believe that we both agree that it is not wrong, in fact it is right to trust in His grace. It only becomes 'good' as you say, after we are forgiven and have everlasting life.

Ray

 

Hi Ray:

To quote you:

"I would prefer to say that the man who receives Christ did the right thing, while the non-elect will have done the wrong thing"

"The Spirit of God prods the sinner to do the right thing."

"it is right to trust in His grace. It only becomes 'good' as you say, after we are forgiven and have everlasting life."



And so to re-state: it is right to believe in God and the Spirit of God prods sinners to make that right choice.

So I would think that then, you would say that the Spirit of God equally prods all men (I would say that is not true, just from experience, as well as what the Bible teaches) and that some after being proded do the right thing (that is, they believe) because they know it to be right, and others after being proded and knowing it is right to believe they choose not to believe, doing what is wrong.

You were trying to attempt to re-phrase what I said - in that it is good to believe and bad to not believe.

Let me quote scripture:

James 4:17
"Therefore, to one who knows the right thing to do and does not do it, to him it is sin."


Do all men know what is right? If they do not do it, it is sin.

Therefore - the ones who believe do not sin - meaning they do GOOD in respect to God, that God might say to them, based on their choice:
"Come, you who are blessed of My Father, inherit the kingdom prepared for you from the foundation of the world." (Matthew 25:34)

But the ones who do the wrong thing - sin and are sinners and therefore go to hell because they sinned?

So - the destination of a man depends on whether or not he does good or if he chooses to sin?

That is based on works...which is not what the Bible says is how it is - it is by the mercy of God, not by our choice, not by our works.


You said:

"I never said that God makes His free choice."

If God is not free - who is He bound by?

God is bound by no man for He is the Lord of all things:

1 Samuel 2:2 (NKJV)
"No one is holy like the Lord, For there is none besides You, Nor is there any rock like our God."

Isaiah 45:5-7 (NKJV)
"I am the Lord, and there is no other; There is no God besides Me. I will gird you, though you have not known Me,
That they may know from the rising of the sun to its setting That there is none besides Me. I am the Lord, and there is no other; I form the light and create darkness, I make peace and create calamity; I, the Lord, do all these things."

Deuteronomy 4:35
Deuteronomy 4:39
1 Samuel 21:9
2 Samuel 7:22
Isaiah 43:11
Isaiah 46:9

and others....


But men are bound by God for God is Lord of them:

Lamentations 3:7 (NKJV)
"He has hedged me in so that I cannot get out; He has made my chain heavy."

Proverbs 16:9 (NKJV)
"A man’s heart plans his way, But the Lord directs his steps."

Proverbs 20:24 (NKJV)
"A man’s steps are of the Lord; How then can a man understand his own way?"



Who is free? God is free. And we as people are free as well, but not as free as God is, for we are only men, but God is God.

Because He lives,
Nathan

 

Absolutely! God is free. He is free to take only actions that are within His Divine attributes.

Can the Lord sin? Can He save someone who rejects His plan of salvation? [John 3:18] God cannot be so free as I think you mean to violate His holy Being and decrees.