Featured Romans 9 Isn't What You Think It Is

Let me understand you here JD. A person has to use one bible {KJV} in one place {a specific church ?} have I got that right?

You made the comment "the scriptures will not help unsaved men to be saved, it takes the gospel of Jesus Christ to do that" Curious, are you saying that only those that hear the gospel can be saved? If so why the conviction of the Holy Spirit, why judge someone for not knowing the God of creation. Why do you limit the sovereign God in how He can save those that call out to Him. Do they have to say the right words or does God judge the heart?

Jer 11:20 But, O LORD of hosts, You who judge righteously, Testing the mind and the heart,...

Psa 7:9 Oh, let the wickedness of the wicked come to an end, But establish the just; For the righteous God tests the hearts and minds.

1Co 4:4 For I know nothing against myself, yet I am not justified by this; but He who judges me is the Lord.
1Co 4:5 Therefore judge nothing before the time, until the Lord comes, who will both bring to light the hidden things of darkness and reveal the counsels of the hearts. Then each one's praise will come from God.

I also have confidence that God has not changed his person or his ways. It is not what the person says but what is in their heart that matters.

Those that will call out to the God of creation or one they have seen in a vision even though they have never heard the gospel will be judged by our righteous God. I am just not willing to limit how or whom God will save.

 

Superb, Superb, Superb, Kyredneck.

Bravo!

THE WORD OF GOD, BELIEVED!

 

It could just refer to the blessing of headship which went to Jacob instead of Esau.

It is, as everyone does but not always. I noticed that Leroy Forlines in his book "The Quest for Truth: Theology for Postmodern Times" takes the position that Romans 9 is mostly about individuals. He is not a Calvinist. I recommend that book even though it's kind of expensive, because he completely gives other views good coverage.

 

You are trying to get a "gotcha" here. You are not trying to understand my argument. I will not be shamed by you into believing there is no reliable and authoritative word of GOD as long a there is a Lord Jesus. I have shown in the OT how that he was made known in the beginning of the third millennial day, Gen 15:1 as the word of the LORD personified and in verse three his name was made known as Lord GOD = Adonay Jehovah. Nothing has changed from then until now. The mysteries of the church was given by him to the apostles and prophets and they first gave voice to the words and then wrote them.

It is significant that the word of the Lord appears 13 times in the NT scriptures connecting it to the gentiles via this number, but 12 times it is used post resurrection of Jesus Christ. Our age is a mystery and the workings of God concerning the gentiles was not made known in the OT. The word of the Lord revealed it to chosen men and for gentiles Paul had personal teaching as an apostle from Jesus himself. Here are all the times this name for Jesus appears in the NT scriptures;

Lu 22:61 And the Lord turned, and looked upon Peter. And Peter remembered the word of the Lord, how he had said unto him, Before the cock crow, thou shalt deny me thrice.
Ac 8:25 And they, when they had testified and preached the word of the Lord, returned to Jerusalem, and preached the gospel in many villages of the Samaritans.
Ac 11:16 Then remembered I the word of the Lord, how that he said, John indeed baptized with water; but ye shall be baptized with the Holy Ghost.
Ac 13:48 And when the Gentiles heard this, they were glad, and glorified the word of the Lord: and as many as were ordained to eternal life believed.
Ac 13:49 And the word of the Lord was published throughout all the region.
Ac 15:35 Paul also and Barnabas continued in Antioch, teaching and preaching the word of the Lord, with many others also.
Ac 15:36 And some days after Paul said unto Barnabas, Let us go again and visit our brethren in every city where we have preached the word of the Lord, and see how they do.
Ac 16:32 And they spake unto him the word of the Lord, and to all that were in his house.
Ac 19:10 And this continued by the space of two years; so that all they which dwelt in Asia (the city of Ephesus was the chief city of Asia) heard the word of the Lord Jesus, both Jews and Greeks.
1Th 1:8 For from you sounded out the word of the Lord not only in Macedonia and Achaia, but also in every place your faith to God-ward is spread abroad; so that we need not to speak any thing.
1Th 4:15 For this we say unto you by the word of the Lord, that we which are alive and remain unto the coming of the Lord shall not prevent them which are asleep.
2Th 3:1 Finally, brethren, pray for us, that the word of the Lord may have free course, and be glorified, even as it is with you:
1Pe 1:25 But the word of the Lord endureth for ever. And this is the word which by the gospel is preached unto you.

Here is what Paul said;
2 If ye have heard of the dispensation of the grace of God which is given me to you-ward:
3 How that by revelation he made known unto me the mystery; (as I wrote afore in few words,
4 Whereby, when ye read, ye may understand my knowledge in the mystery of Christ)
5 Which in other ages was not made known unto the sons of men, as it is now revealed unto his holy apostles and prophets by the Spirit;

6 That the Gentiles should be fellowheirs (with the Jews), and of the same body, and partakers of his promise in Christ by the gospel:

1Co 1:17 For Christ sent me not to baptize, but to preach the gospel: not with wisdom of words, lest the cross of Christ should be made of none effect.
1Co 1:21 For after that in the wisdom of God the world by wisdom knew not God, it pleased God by the foolishness of preaching to save them that believe.

The preacher gives voice to the promise of the word of God in the world where it will never be published in writing.

Read the Acts where the activities of Paul is chronicled. He did not write to unsaved gentiles ever. He preached to unsaved gentiles and then addressed them in letters for his stated cause.

Rom 15:14 And I myself also am persuaded of you, my brethren, that ye also are full of goodness, filled with all knowledge, able also to admonish one another.
15 Nevertheless, brethren, I have written the more boldly unto you in some sort, as putting you in mind, because of the grace that is given to me of God,
16 That I should be the minister of Jesus Christ to the Gentiles, ministering the gospel of God, that the offering up of the Gentiles might be acceptable, being sanctified by the Holy Ghost.
17 I have therefore whereof I may glory through Jesus Christ in those things which pertain to God.
18 For I will not dare to speak of any of those things which Christ hath not wrought by me, to make the Gentiles obedient, by word and deed,

Unsaved gentiles needs preaching of the gospel and saved gentiles needs writing.

This is just so much silliness;

Ro 10:12 For there is no difference between the Jew and the Greek: for the same Lord over all is rich unto all that call upon him.
13 For whosoever shall call upon the name of the Lord shall be saved.
14 How then shall they call on him in whom they have not believed? and how shall they believe in him of whom they have not heard? and how shall they hear without a preacher?
15 And how shall they preach, except they be sent? as it is written, How beautiful are the feet of them that preach the gospel of peace, and bring glad tidings of good things!
16 But they have not all obeyed the gospel. For Esaias saith, Lord, who hath believed our report?
17 So then faith cometh by hearing, and hearing by the word of God.

Stop and think!

 

If the passage had named potato chips you would be forced to consider that it referred to potato chips. If it named Jacob and Esau you would be forced to consider that it meant those two guys. Be serious.

It could be. I understand the case and think it's a valid argument. I'm just pointing out that the two individuals are named, and while I don't do Greek, apparently the singular is used in the passage for "whom". Reasonable people could take it either way.

I thought that was begging the question. Like I said, we all approach with preconceived notions that we have previously learned. Your list is flawed. God is not changeable, and doesn't constantly live in a state of learning new things as we do so even "rational" would be in question, since that would involve taking true statements that one learns and then trying to make sense of them for yourself or others. Arbitrary could be slander but I admit it often does seem that way from our point of view if we are honest.

They do too. People using the same Bible come up with different conclusions. So, all I ask is that you admit the possibility that there is a legitimate difference of interpretation. You charged that this was the result of a Calvinistic interpretation of Romans 9. I'm just saying that FYI, there is a prominent theologian who is not a Calvinist who also thinks it refers to individuals.

 

Not a trick question or attempt to shame you.

I did think and I trust our sovereign to save those that trust in Him. Perhaps you should trust in Him also. Why do you limit what God can do?

 

Ahhhh...the fruit of a free-willer

 

Seriously?!?...Maybe they are right. Are you a child?

 

The more you write, the more your fruit is revealed. It looks like it's starting to rot...IMHO

 

Believe me, I KNOW you don't.
Maybe they are right. Are you a child?

 

He could be in error. The Calvinists may be right. You might even be right. But if the only basis you have for considering any counter arguments to be valid are the presuppositions you already have then there is no sense being in discussion with you.

I felt bad before when you started talking like this because I don't want to be responsible for getting people riled up but this time it was unprovoked and I assume it is just the way you are. If we had moderators you would not be on a Christian forum. If you can't bring anything more substantial than what you have so far then there isn't much more to say.

 

Romans 9:6
"Not as though the word of God hath taken none effect.
For they are not all Israel, which are of Israel:"

"Not as though the word of God hath taken none effect",....
Or "it is not possible indeed that the word of God should fall";
see 1 Samuel 3:10;

"This the Apostle says, partly to relieve his own mind
pressed with sorrow, and partly to obviate an objection
some might make, or prevent any mistake
any might be ready to go into;

"as though from what he suggested that what God had said
concerning the people of the Jews, was made void and without effect:
for whether by the "word of God" are meant, the Scriptures in general,
the prophecies of the Old Testament, these were now
about to have their accomplishment, in the rejection of the Jews,
and in the conversion of the Gentiles;

"or whether by it is designed the Gospel, this, as preached
both by Christ and His apostles, had had its Effect
upon God's Chosen ones among that people;

"The Gospel was become the Power of God unto Salvation,
to the Jew first: or rather by it may be intended,
God's word of promise to Abraham,
that He would be a God to him, and to his seed after him;

"and that Abraham and they should be heir of the world,
of this and of that which is to come;
particularly the Heavenly Inheritance,
which He gave to him by Promise;
this was not made void, or had taken none effect:
for this was made only to Abraham and his Spiritual seed;

"and therefore though his carnal seed believed not,
and for their unbelief should be cut off,
this did not make the Faith, or Faithfulness of God of none effect:

"for they are not all Israel, which are of Israel";
that is, they which are the descendants of the patriarch Jacob,
whose name was Israel; or who are of the Israelitish nation,
of the stock of Israel, belonging to that people;

"they are not all , "the Israel", by way of emphasis,
as in Psalm 25:22, or the "Israel of God", Galatians 6:16,
the Israel whom Jehovah the Father
has Chosen for a peculiar people;

"which Christ has Redeemed from all their iniquities;

"which the Spirit of God calls with an Holy calling,
by special grace, to special privileges;

"the seed of Israel who are Justified in Christ,
whose iniquities are so pardoned and done away,
that when they are sought for they shall not be found,
and who are Saved in the Lord with an Everlasting Salvation:

"or in other words, again they are not all Chosen as "the Israel",
by way of emphasis, as in Psalm 25:22,
or the "Israel of God", Galatians 6:16,

"so, "they are not all Israel" and are
"Israel after the flesh", 1 Corinthians 10:18, yet not after the Spirit;

"though they are by nation Israelites, they are not Israelites "indeed",
as Nathanael was, John 1:47; they are Jews outwardly, not inwardly;

"and they have not all principles of Grace, Uprightness,
and Sincerity in them, from the Word of God in Salvation:

And yet, to the Chosen Israel of God,
"to these Spiritual Israelites, or seed of Abraham,
was the Word of God to come Effectually,
and the Promises of God concerning Spiritual
and Eternal things made,

and upon these Chosen Israel of God, these Spiritual Israelites,
or seed of Abraham the Word of God and the Promises
concerning Spiritual and Eternal things made had their Effect;

"and therefore it could not be said that the Word of God
had taken none effect;

"though the whole remaining body of Israel after the flesh
were cut off and rejected, because they had not been Chosen."

 

Let's start with this one:

That argument is so ridiculous that no one uses it except you, and for good reasons. The simple, observable facts are that there does not exist an equity of opportunity and circumstances that give everyone a fair chance at coming to Christ. That's why, if you look at atheist vs Christian apologist debates you find that is the chief atheist argument against Christianity. The way they put it is that God either is unable or doesn't care about the plight of men or else things would be observably different. A non-Calvinist free will system may give your ego a boost but it does not explain the inequities in life or in opportunity for salvation.

Calvinists start with the assumption that all of us are truly guilty and God would be just if we were all condemned. We are born guilty in some sense and then personally guilty if we live long enough to engage in sin voluntarily. And this is because of our free will, which you so highly value. Now, I am not a Calvinist in the strict sense some are and so I go in the common Reformed Baptist direction when it comes to salvation. Most Reformed Baptist churches teach that contrary to what you claim, that God is just, and therefore that is the biggest problem for us. How can we be saved as sinners, if God is just. Do you see from that how stupid your argument is that if God is just, Calvinism can't be true?

So without going into every detail, which books are written on, since the problem is our free will and where it got us, we need divine help beyond the gospel message, which is also needed. Again, reams are written on this. Since, divine help is needed, it must be selective, and sovereign in application or else you have universalism, which we deny. Now personally, I tend to view this divine enlightening or quickening as resistible but I admit that by definition, if it is necessary, and decisive, it could be called "effective" or even "irresistible" in one who gets saved.

Bottom line is this. No one who has a correct view of man's natural condition uses the "unjust" or "unfair" argument. All those who do are basing it upon a false view of man without God as neutral towards God, which is incorrect.

 

There are whole threads on this site, some of which I participated in, that go into this. I don't remember seeing you involved. So capitalize words all you want, that charge is a lie in two areas. It has been dealt with, and many staunch 5 point Calvinists don't teach such a thing. In fact, they refute it.

 

I don't know how long any of us would last in the 1600's but what puzzles me is how you could be a member of any modern church which attempts to have Christian love. How do you do it, can you keep your mouth shut or are there whole groups like you, somewhere?