Romans 9 Isn't What You Think It Is

[Silverhair]

Well, Silverhair, I apologize for offending you. I must always remember that the scriptures are for Christians and men must choose what they think is the word of God after they are saved. The scriptures will not help unsaved men to be saved, it takes the gospel of Jesus Christ to do that. Saved men can preach the gospel in their own words, yea, they must preach it in their own words because preaching the gospel is basically a saved man telling someone who is not saved what happened to them and they can be saved the same way. Here are a couple statements from heaven that proves that;

1Co 1:18 For the preaching of the cross is to them that perish foolishness; but unto us which are saved it is the power of God.

1Co 1:21 For after that in the wisdom of God the world by wisdom knew not God, it pleased God by the foolishness of preaching to save them that believe.

Notice in V18 it is the preaching of the cross, not the word that gets sinners saved. This is an important distinction. Everyone must come to the cross of Jesus Christ to be saved.

I read many of your comments on here and generally agree with what you say. What Bible you carry is of no consequence to me and I can fellowship with you as a brother if it is your testimony you have been saved by believing the gospel of Jesus Christ. However, Our fellowship will not be as members of a local church that has a statement of faith and constitution that includes the definition of the authority of God for faith and practice being in one Bible in one place because as much as I like you, you cannot and will not say it is. I think you will not confess that there is a Bible in the world, whether hand copied or printed, that is as Jesus Christ is, perfect. Yet in the OT and the NT he comes to his prophets so they can give his words he gives them a voice. His name that was revealed in Gen 15 is Lord GOD (Adonay Jehovah) and his title is "the word of the LORD," (Jehovah). When the scriptures say the word of the LORD came unto such and such saying, he means a person came and that person was Jesus Christ.

1Sa 3:7 Now Samuel did not yet know the LORD, neither was the word of the LORD yet revealed unto him.
1Sa 3:21 And the LORD appeared again in Shiloh: for the LORD revealed himself to Samuel in Shiloh by the word of the LORD.

For instance - Eze has the title the word of the LORD coming to Ezekiel in 60 verses. He has The Lord GOD in 205 times.

Here is who he is according to my scripture authority.

Ps 110:1 «A Psalm of David.» The LORD said unto my Lord, Sit thou at my right hand, until I make thine enemies thy footstool.

Here is NT confirmation of this truth;

32 This Jesus hath God raised up, whereof we all are witnesses.
33 Therefore being by the right hand of God exalted, and having received of the Father the promise of the Holy Ghost, he hath shed forth this, which ye now see and hear.
34 For David is not ascended into the heavens: but he saith himself, The LORD said unto my Lord, Sit thou on my right hand,
35 Until I make thy foes thy footstool.
36 Therefore let all the house of Israel know assuredly, that God hath made that same Jesus, whom ye have crucified, both Lord and Christ.

I have scriptural precedent that God's preacher used scripture with authority to confirm what God said and of whom he said it and I have confidence that God has not changed his person or his ways.

So we will just have to disagree about what the word of God is.

Let me understand you here JD. A person has to use one bible {KJV} in one place {a specific church ?} have I got that right?

You made the comment "the scriptures will not help unsaved men to be saved, it takes the gospel of Jesus Christ to do that" Curious, are you saying that only those that hear the gospel can be saved? If so why the conviction of the Holy Spirit, why judge someone for not knowing the God of creation. Why do you limit the sovereign God in how He can save those that call out to Him. Do they have to say the right words or does God judge the heart?

Jer 11:20 But, O LORD of hosts, You who judge righteously, Testing the mind and the heart,...

Psa 7:9 Oh, let the wickedness of the wicked come to an end, But establish the just; For the righteous God tests the hearts and minds.

1Co 4:4 For I know nothing against myself, yet I am not justified by this; but He who judges me is the Lord.
1Co 4:5 Therefore judge nothing before the time, until the Lord comes, who will both bring to light the hidden things of darkness and reveal the counsels of the hearts. Then each one's praise will come from God.

I also have confidence that God has not changed his person or his ways. It is not what the person says but what is in their heart that matters.

Those that will call out to the God of creation or one they have seen in a vision even though they have never heard the gospel will be judged by our righteous God. I am just not willing to limit how or whom God will save.

 

[CJP69]

Just the very unChristian attitude that comes through in those words is disheartening. We are to turn the other cheek not strike the other cheek.

Jesus was teaching people to turn the other cheek because the plan was for Him to return soon and set up Israel's kingdom where those who had cause to turn the other cheek would see justice. He was teaching people how to live during what we would call the Tribulation.

Why do you feel it is necessary to respond that way?

I ask you again whether you've ever said any such thing to those here who routinely insult me on practically a daily basis but only do so in more passively aggressive ways?

The answer there is no, you have not.

And I feel the need because it is justice. I speak to people in the manner in which they deserve to be spoken to.

Just look at your response to KY in post # 118.

My harshness with him is in keeping with then gross error he is making. It is for his own good.

You have stepped over the line when you question another's salvation just because they do not think as you do.

I have never done any such thing. I reject someone as saved when they have voiced a rejection of the gospel or expressed a devotion to a god that does not exist. The fact that they don't think the way I do is not the cause, it simply comes with the territory.

KY is NOT a heretic. I would call him misguided or misinformed but he still trusts in God for his salvation.

Yes, he is. His god is arbitrary (i.e. unjust). He worships Aristotle's god, which does not exist.

Have I mentioned that we need to be more civil on this board? Yes. The tone can get rather heated by times and we all need to step back and remember that we are all members of one body.

I have no problem with this sentiment at all and when someone is substantive and responsive, I am as patient with them as Moses! If they ignore arguments, repeat themselves as though I've said nothing, respond to me with snark and insults then they get what they've earned.

In short, I do not accept someone as a Christian because they quote passages of the bible on a Christian web forum and I am not here to make friends with people I do not know and will never meet. I'm here to present and defend the truth to the best of my ability. The truth is, however, unavoidably offensive and I don't hide behind commonly held false doctrines and cliche that teach Christians that they're supposed to be nice no matter what anyone does or says.

Psalm 139:21 Do I not hate them, O Lord, who hate You? And do I not loathe those who rise up against You?

John 7:24 Do not judge according to appearance, but judge with righteous judgment.”

Luke 19:27 But bring here those enemies of mine, who did not want me to reign over them, and slay them before me.’ ”​

 

[CJP69]

If I were allowed to guess I would guess that what you have written is what Bod said even though some of what you said is illogical. Does this mean Bob has trouble with logic at times?

I've not presented 1% of what is in Bob's book and I've said nothing at all that is illogical. You're now intention mischaracterization and simply ignoring of my clarifications, not withstanding.

 

[Alan Gross]

Yes, Edom served Israel, that IS a bigger picture in this, but Romans 9 is concerned with INDIVIDUAL vessels.

15 For he saith to Moses, I will have mercy on whom I have mercy, and I will have compassion on whom I have compassion.
16 So then it is not of him that willeth, nor of him that runneth, but of God that hath mercy.
17 For the scripture saith unto Pharaoh, For this very purpose did I raise thee up, that I might show in thee my power, and that my name might be published abroad in all the earth.
18 So then he hath mercy on whom he will, and whom he will be hardeneth.
19 Thou wilt say then unto me, Why doth he still find fault? For who withstandeth his will?
20 Nay but,O m an, who art thou that repliest against God? Shall the thing formed say to him that formed it, Why didst thou make me thus?
21 Or hath not the potter a right over the clay, from the same lump to make one part a vessel unto honor, and another unto dishonor?
22 What if God, willing to show his wrath, and to make his power known, endured with much longsuffering vessels of wrath fitted unto destruction:
23 and that he might make known the riches of his glory upon vessels of mercy, which he afore prepared unto glory,
24 even us, whom he also called, not from the Jews only, but also from the Gentiles? Ro 9

Superb, Superb, Superb, Kyredneck.

Bravo!

THE WORD OF GOD, BELIEVED!

 

[CJP69]

Superb, Superb, Superb, Kyredneck.

Bravo!

THE WORD OF GOD, BELIEVED!

It is doctrine believed and then read into the text of scripture.

The older sibling never served his younger brother. That is a biblical fact that you just cannot get around because it is iron clad proof positive that the passage flat out is NOT talking about individuals but, as the text clearly states, "there are two NATIONS in your womb".

But don't let the plain reading of scripture stand in the way of your pet doctrines!

 

[DaveXR650]

The older sibling never served his younger brother. That is a biblical fact that you just cannot get around because it is iron clad proof positive that the passage flat out is NOT talking about individuals but, as the text clearly states, "there are two NATIONS in your womb".

It could just refer to the blessing of headship which went to Jacob instead of Esau.

It is doctrine believed and then read into the text of scripture.

It is, as everyone does but not always. I noticed that Leroy Forlines in his book "The Quest for Truth: Theology for Postmodern Times" takes the position that Romans 9 is mostly about individuals. He is not a Calvinist. I recommend that book even though it's kind of expensive, because he completely gives other views good coverage.

 

[JD731]

Let me understand you here JD. A person has to use one bible {KJV} in one place {a specific church ?} have I got that right?

You are trying to get a "gotcha" here. You are not trying to understand my argument. I will not be shamed by you into believing there is no reliable and authoritative word of GOD as long a there is a Lord Jesus. I have shown in the OT how that he was made known in the beginning of the third millennial day, Gen 15:1 as the word of the LORD personified and in verse three his name was made known as Lord GOD = Adonay Jehovah. Nothing has changed from then until now. The mysteries of the church was given by him to the apostles and prophets and they first gave voice to the words and then wrote them.

It is significant that the word of the Lord appears 13 times in the NT scriptures connecting it to the gentiles via this number, but 12 times it is used post resurrection of Jesus Christ. Our age is a mystery and the workings of God concerning the gentiles was not made known in the OT. The word of the Lord revealed it to chosen men and for gentiles Paul had personal teaching as an apostle from Jesus himself. Here are all the times this name for Jesus appears in the NT scriptures;

Lu 22:61 And the Lord turned, and looked upon Peter. And Peter remembered the word of the Lord, how he had said unto him, Before the cock crow, thou shalt deny me thrice.
Ac 8:25 And they, when they had testified and preached the word of the Lord, returned to Jerusalem, and preached the gospel in many villages of the Samaritans.
Ac 11:16 Then remembered I the word of the Lord, how that he said, John indeed baptized with water; but ye shall be baptized with the Holy Ghost.
Ac 13:48 And when the Gentiles heard this, they were glad, and glorified the word of the Lord: and as many as were ordained to eternal life believed.
Ac 13:49 And the word of the Lord was published throughout all the region.
Ac 15:35 Paul also and Barnabas continued in Antioch, teaching and preaching the word of the Lord, with many others also.
Ac 15:36 And some days after Paul said unto Barnabas, Let us go again and visit our brethren in every city where we have preached the word of the Lord, and see how they do.
Ac 16:32 And they spake unto him the word of the Lord, and to all that were in his house.
Ac 19:10 And this continued by the space of two years; so that all they which dwelt in Asia (the city of Ephesus was the chief city of Asia) heard the word of the Lord Jesus, both Jews and Greeks.
1Th 1:8 For from you sounded out the word of the Lord not only in Macedonia and Achaia, but also in every place your faith to God-ward is spread abroad; so that we need not to speak any thing.
1Th 4:15 For this we say unto you by the word of the Lord, that we which are alive and remain unto the coming of the Lord shall not prevent them which are asleep.
2Th 3:1 Finally, brethren, pray for us, that the word of the Lord may have free course, and be glorified, even as it is with you:
1Pe 1:25 But the word of the Lord endureth for ever. And this is the word which by the gospel is preached unto you.

Here is what Paul said;
2 If ye have heard of the dispensation of the grace of God which is given me to you-ward:
3 How that by revelation he made known unto me the mystery; (as I wrote afore in few words,
4 Whereby, when ye read, ye may understand my knowledge in the mystery of Christ)
5 Which in other ages was not made known unto the sons of men, as it is now revealed unto his holy apostles and prophets by the Spirit;

6 That the Gentiles should be fellowheirs (with the Jews), and of the same body, and partakers of his promise in Christ by the gospel:

1Co 1:17 For Christ sent me not to baptize, but to preach the gospel: not with wisdom of words, lest the cross of Christ should be made of none effect.
1Co 1:21 For after that in the wisdom of God the world by wisdom knew not God, it pleased God by the foolishness of preaching to save them that believe.

The preacher gives voice to the promise of the word of God in the world where it will never be published in writing.

Read the Acts where the activities of Paul is chronicled. He did not write to unsaved gentiles ever. He preached to unsaved gentiles and then addressed them in letters for his stated cause.

Rom 15:14 And I myself also am persuaded of you, my brethren, that ye also are full of goodness, filled with all knowledge, able also to admonish one another.
15 Nevertheless, brethren, I have written the more boldly unto you in some sort, as putting you in mind, because of the grace that is given to me of God,
16 That I should be the minister of Jesus Christ to the Gentiles, ministering the gospel of God, that the offering up of the Gentiles might be acceptable, being sanctified by the Holy Ghost.
17 I have therefore whereof I may glory through Jesus Christ in those things which pertain to God.
18 For I will not dare to speak of any of those things which Christ hath not wrought by me, to make the Gentiles obedient, by word and deed,

Unsaved gentiles needs preaching of the gospel and saved gentiles needs writing.

You made the comment "the scriptures will not help unsaved men to be saved, it takes the gospel of Jesus Christ to do that" Curious, are you saying that only those that hear the gospel can be saved? If so why the conviction of the Holy Spirit, why judge someone for not knowing the God of creation. Why do you limit the sovereign God in how He can save those that call out to Him. Do they have to say the right words or does God judge the heart?

Jer 11:20 But, O LORD of hosts, You who judge righteously, Testing the mind and the heart,...

Psa 7:9 Oh, let the wickedness of the wicked come to an end, But establish the just; For the righteous God tests the hearts and minds.

1Co 4:4 For I know nothing against myself, yet I am not justified by this; but He who judges me is the Lord.
1Co 4:5 Therefore judge nothing before the time, until the Lord comes, who will both bring to light the hidden things of darkness and reveal the counsels of the hearts. Then each one's praise will come from God.

I also have confidence that God has not changed his person or his ways. It is not what the person says but what is in their heart that matters.

Those that will call out to the God of creation or one they have seen in a vision even though they have never heard the gospel will be judged by our righteous God. I am just not willing to limit how or whom God will save.

This is just so much silliness;

Ro 10:12 For there is no difference between the Jew and the Greek: for the same Lord over all is rich unto all that call upon him.
13 For whosoever shall call upon the name of the Lord shall be saved.
14 How then shall they call on him in whom they have not believed? and how shall they believe in him of whom they have not heard? and how shall they hear without a preacher?
15 And how shall they preach, except they be sent? as it is written, How beautiful are the feet of them that preach the gospel of peace, and bring glad tidings of good things!
16 But they have not all obeyed the gospel. For Esaias saith, Lord, who hath believed our report?
17 So then faith cometh by hearing, and hearing by the word of God.

Stop and think!

 

[CJP69]

It could just refer to the blessing of headship which went to Jacob instead of Esau.

It could refer to the future invention of potato chips if one's doctrine requires it, right?

Why believe that it refers to anything other than what it says? There is no ambiguity here. The passage explicitly states that "there are two nations in your womb"!!! Why isn't that sufficient to convince you that it is the nations that is being prophesied about? How much more explicit can it even get than that?

It is, as everyone does but not always.

Strictly speaking this statement is accurate but the point is that it isn't proper to do this in an arbitrary and entirely a-priori manner, otherwise all one is doing is begging the question and calling it good theological practice.

God exists and He is personal, rational, relational, righteous and just. You can approach the bible with this truth as your underlying foundation or your can believe that God is immutable, static, impassible and arbitrary. You cannot do both as they are contradictory to each other, (not to mention the fact that one is overtly biblical while the other is demonstrably pagan in origin).

You can pretend to accept both but it is merely that, pretending. Eventually, reality forces you to choose as is always the case when one tries to hold to a contradiction. One's reading of Romans 9, Genesis 25 and Jeremiah 18, as is being discussed here, in one place that exposes which of the two take priority in one's mind. The whole of the Calvinistic mindset is fixed to the foundation that God is immutable as Socrates, Aristotle and Plato taught.

I noticed that Leroy Forlines in his book "The Quest for Truth: Theology for Postmodern Times" takes the position that Romans 9 is mostly about individuals. He is not a Calvinist. I recommend that book even though it's kind of expensive, because he completely gives other views good coverage.

You've got your books, I've got the bible.

Romans 9 is not about individuals at all as the text of scripture plainly states.

 

[DaveXR650]

It could refer to the future invention of potato chips if one's doctrine requires it, right?

If the passage had named potato chips you would be forced to consider that it referred to potato chips. If it named Jacob and Esau you would be forced to consider that it meant those two guys. Be serious.

Why isn't that sufficient to convince you that it is the nations that is being prophesied about? How much more explicit can it even get than that?

It could be. I understand the case and think it's a valid argument. I'm just pointing out that the two individuals are named, and while I don't do Greek, apparently the singular is used in the passage for "whom". Reasonable people could take it either way.

God exists and He is personal, rational, relational, righteous and just. You can approach the bible with this truth as your underlying foundation or your can believe that God is immutable, static, impassible and arbitrary. You cannot do both as they are contradictory to each other, (not to mention the fact that one is overtly biblical while the other is demonstrably pagan in origin).

I thought that was begging the question. Like I said, we all approach with preconceived notions that we have previously learned. Your list is flawed. God is not changeable, and doesn't constantly live in a state of learning new things as we do so even "rational" would be in question, since that would involve taking true statements that one learns and then trying to make sense of them for yourself or others. Arbitrary could be slander but I admit it often does seem that way from our point of view if we are honest.

You've got your books, I've got the bible.

Romans 9 is not about individuals at all as the text of scripture plainly states.

They do too. People using the same Bible come up with different conclusions. So, all I ask is that you admit the possibility that there is a legitimate difference of interpretation. You charged that this was the result of a Calvinistic interpretation of Romans 9. I'm just saying that FYI, there is a prominent theologian who is not a Calvinist who also thinks it refers to individuals.

 

[Silverhair]

Jesus was teaching people to turn the other cheek because the plan was for Him to return soon and set up Israel's kingdom where those who had cause to turn the other cheek would see justice. He was teaching people how to live during what we would call the Tribulation.


I ask you again whether you've ever said any such thing to those here who routinely insult me on practically a daily basis but only do so in more passively aggressive ways?

The answer there is no, you have not.

And I feel the need because it is justice. I speak to people in the manner in which they deserve to be spoken to.


My harshness with him is in keeping with then gross error he is making. It is for his own good.


I have never done any such thing. I reject someone as saved when they have voiced a rejection of the gospel or expressed a devotion to a god that does not exist. The fact that they don't think the way I do is not the cause, it simply comes with the territory.


Yes, he is. His god is arbitrary (i.e. unjust). He worships Aristotle's god, which does not exist.


I have no problem with this sentiment at all and when someone is substantive and responsive, I am as patient with them as Moses! If they ignore arguments, repeat themselves as though I've said nothing, respond to me with snark and insults then they get what they've earned.

In short, I do not accept someone as a Christian because they quote passages of the bible on a Christian web forum and I am not here to make friends with people I do not know and will never meet. I'm here to present and defend the truth to the best of my ability. The truth is, however, unavoidably offensive and I don't hide behind commonly held false doctrines and cliche that teach Christians that they're supposed to be nice no matter what anyone does or says.

Psalm 139:21 Do I not hate them, O Lord, who hate You? And do I not loathe those who rise up against You?

John 7:24 Do not judge according to appearance, but judge with righteous judgment.”

Luke 19:27 But bring here those enemies of mine, who did not want me to reign over them, and slay them before me.’ ”​

You are trying to get a "gotcha" here. You are not trying to understand my argument. I will not be shamed by you into believing there is no reliable and authoritative word of GOD as long a there is a Lord Jesus. I have shown in the OT how that he was made known in the beginning of the third millennial day, Gen 15:1 as the word of the LORD personified and in verse three his name was made known as Lord GOD = Adonay Jehovah. Nothing has changed from then until now. The mysteries of the church was given by him to the apostles and prophets and they first gave voice to the words and then wrote them.

It is significant that the word of the Lord appears 13 times in the NT scriptures connecting it to the gentiles via this number, but 12 times it is used post resurrection of Jesus Christ. Our age is a mystery and the workings of God concerning the gentiles was not made known in the OT. The word of the Lord revealed it to chosen men and for gentiles Paul had personal teaching as an apostle from Jesus himself. Here are all the times this name for Jesus appears in the NT scriptures;

Lu 22:61 And the Lord turned, and looked upon Peter. And Peter remembered the word of the Lord, how he had said unto him, Before the cock crow, thou shalt deny me thrice.
Ac 8:25 And they, when they had testified and preached the word of the Lord, returned to Jerusalem, and preached the gospel in many villages of the Samaritans.
Ac 11:16 Then remembered I the word of the Lord, how that he said, John indeed baptized with water; but ye shall be baptized with the Holy Ghost.
Ac 13:48 And when the Gentiles heard this, they were glad, and glorified the word of the Lord: and as many as were ordained to eternal life believed.
Ac 13:49 And the word of the Lord was published throughout all the region.
Ac 15:35 Paul also and Barnabas continued in Antioch, teaching and preaching the word of the Lord, with many others also.
Ac 15:36 And some days after Paul said unto Barnabas, Let us go again and visit our brethren in every city where we have preached the word of the Lord, and see how they do.
Ac 16:32 And they spake unto him the word of the Lord, and to all that were in his house.
Ac 19:10 And this continued by the space of two years; so that all they which dwelt in Asia (the city of Ephesus was the chief city of Asia) heard the word of the Lord Jesus, both Jews and Greeks.
1Th 1:8 For from you sounded out the word of the Lord not only in Macedonia and Achaia, but also in every place your faith to God-ward is spread abroad; so that we need not to speak any thing.
1Th 4:15 For this we say unto you by the word of the Lord, that we which are alive and remain unto the coming of the Lord shall not prevent them which are asleep.
2Th 3:1 Finally, brethren, pray for us, that the word of the Lord may have free course, and be glorified, even as it is with you:
1Pe 1:25 But the word of the Lord endureth for ever. And this is the word which by the gospel is preached unto you.

Here is what Paul said;
2 If ye have heard of the dispensation of the grace of God which is given me to you-ward:
3 How that by revelation he made known unto me the mystery; (as I wrote afore in few words,
4 Whereby, when ye read, ye may understand my knowledge in the mystery of Christ)
5 Which in other ages was not made known unto the sons of men, as it is now revealed unto his holy apostles and prophets by the Spirit;

6 That the Gentiles should be fellowheirs (with the Jews), and of the same body, and partakers of his promise in Christ by the gospel:

1Co 1:17 For Christ sent me not to baptize, but to preach the gospel: not with wisdom of words, lest the cross of Christ should be made of none effect.
1Co 1:21 For after that in the wisdom of God the world by wisdom knew not God, it pleased God by the foolishness of preaching to save them that believe.

The preacher gives voice to the promise of the word of God in the world where it will never be published in writing.

Read the Acts where the activities of Paul is chronicled. He did not write to unsaved gentiles ever. He preached to unsaved gentiles and then addressed them in letters for his stated cause.

Rom 15:14 And I myself also am persuaded of you, my brethren, that ye also are full of goodness, filled with all knowledge, able also to admonish one another.
15 Nevertheless, brethren, I have written the more boldly unto you in some sort, as putting you in mind, because of the grace that is given to me of God,
16 That I should be the minister of Jesus Christ to the Gentiles, ministering the gospel of God, that the offering up of the Gentiles might be acceptable, being sanctified by the Holy Ghost.
17 I have therefore whereof I may glory through Jesus Christ in those things which pertain to God.
18 For I will not dare to speak of any of those things which Christ hath not wrought by me, to make the Gentiles obedient, by word and deed,

Unsaved gentiles needs preaching of the gospel and saved gentiles needs writing.



This is just so much silliness;

Ro 10:12 For there is no difference between the Jew and the Greek: for the same Lord over all is rich unto all that call upon him.
13 For whosoever shall call upon the name of the Lord shall be saved.
14 How then shall they call on him in whom they have not believed? and how shall they believe in him of whom they have not heard? and how shall they hear without a preacher?
15 And how shall they preach, except they be sent? as it is written, How beautiful are the feet of them that preach the gospel of peace, and bring glad tidings of good things!
16 But they have not all obeyed the gospel. For Esaias saith, Lord, who hath believed our report?
17 So then faith cometh by hearing, and hearing by the word of God.

Stop and think!

Not a trick question or attempt to shame you.

I did think and I trust our sovereign to save those that trust in Him. Perhaps you should trust in Him also. Why do you limit what God can do?

 

[Mikoo]

You argue in favor of Calvinist doctrine. That makes you a Calvinist as far as I'm concerned. A fart by any other name still stinks just as badly.

And no, that is not the context! That is the text! There is a difference! The context is provided by the rest of the chapter and by the Old Testament passages that Paul is referencing as I have clearly established (by merely quoting them, by the way) without substantive response from you or anyone else on this thread.

Ahhhh...the fruit of a free-willer

 

[Mikoo]

I'll try to tone it down.

Have you ever said such a thing to them when they insult me or is it that I don't hide my insults under condescension, sarcasm and snark that makes you feel uncomfortable with the way I dish it back to them? Just askin'.

Seriously?!?...Maybe they are right. Are you a child?

 

[Mikoo]

Jesus was teaching people to turn the other cheek because the plan was for Him to return soon and set up Israel's kingdom where those who had cause to turn the other cheek would see justice. He was teaching people how to live during what we would call the Tribulation.


I ask you again whether you've ever said any such thing to those here who routinely insult me on practically a daily basis but only do so in more passively aggressive ways?

The answer there is no, you have not.

And I feel the need because it is justice. I speak to people in the manner in which they deserve to be spoken to.


My harshness with him is in keeping with then gross error he is making. It is for his own good.


I have never done any such thing. I reject someone as saved when they have voiced a rejection of the gospel or expressed a devotion to a god that does not exist. The fact that they don't think the way I do is not the cause, it simply comes with the territory.


Yes, he is. His god is arbitrary (i.e. unjust). He worships Aristotle's god, which does not exist.


I have no problem with this sentiment at all and when someone is substantive and responsive, I am as patient with them as Moses! If they ignore arguments, repeat themselves as though I've said nothing, respond to me with snark and insults then they get what they've earned.

In short, I do not accept someone as a Christian because they quote passages of the bible on a Christian web forum and I am not here to make friends with people I do not know and will never meet. I'm here to present and defend the truth to the best of my ability. The truth is, however, unavoidably offensive and I don't hide behind commonly held false doctrines and cliche that teach Christians that they're supposed to be nice no matter what anyone does or says.

Psalm 139:21 Do I not hate them, O Lord, who hate You? And do I not loathe those who rise up against You?

John 7:24 Do not judge according to appearance, but judge with righteous judgment.”

Luke 19:27 But bring here those enemies of mine, who did not want me to reign over them, and slay them before me.’ ”​

The more you write, the more your fruit is revealed. It looks like it's starting to rot...IMHO

 

[Mikoo]

I do not care about your "humble" opinions.

Believe me, I KNOW you don't.
Maybe they are right. Are you a child?

 

[DaveXR650]

He is in error, as the text of scripture plainly dictates.
I will readily concede that Calvinism is not the only source of biblical error. The point is that I do not care who they are or how many books they've written or how many people follow their teaching or any other such consideration. My doctrine and the arguments that I've presented in support of them are based solely on the plain reading of scripture and sound reason (this includes the presuppositions that I bring to the reading of scripture) and it is on that basis, and that basis only, that I will consider any counter argument to be valid.

He could be in error. The Calvinists may be right. You might even be right. But if the only basis you have for considering any counter arguments to be valid are the presuppositions you already have then there is no sense being in discussion with you.

I am being deadly serious! The Calvinists won't give a damn whether potato chips where mentioned or not.

I felt bad before when you started talking like this because I don't want to be responsible for getting people riled up but this time it was unprovoked and I assume it is just the way you are. If we had moderators you would not be on a Christian forum. If you can't bring anything more substantial than what you have so far then there isn't much more to say.

 

[Alan Gross]

God exists and He is personal, rational, relational, righteous and just.
You can approach the bible with this truth as your underlying foundation
or your can believe that God is immutable, static,
impassible and arbitrary.
You cannot do both as they are contradictory to each other,
(not to mention the fact that one is overtly biblical
while the other is demonstrably pagan in origin).

Romans 9 is not about individuals at all
as the text of scripture plainly states.

Romans 9:6
"Not as though the word of God hath taken none effect.
For they are not all Israel, which are of Israel:"

"Not as though the word of God hath taken none effect",....
Or "it is not possible indeed that the word of God should fall";
see 1 Samuel 3:10;

"This the Apostle says, partly to relieve his own mind
pressed with sorrow, and partly to obviate an objection
some might make, or prevent any mistake
any might be ready to go into;

"as though from what he suggested that what God had said
concerning the people of the Jews, was made void and without effect:
for whether by the "word of God" are meant, the Scriptures in general,
the prophecies of the Old Testament, these were now
about to have their accomplishment, in the rejection of the Jews,
and in the conversion of the Gentiles;

"or whether by it is designed the Gospel, this, as preached
both by Christ and His apostles, had had its Effect
upon God's Chosen ones among that people;

"The Gospel was become the Power of God unto Salvation,
to the Jew first: or rather by it may be intended,
God's word of promise to Abraham,
that He would be a God to him, and to his seed after him;

"and that Abraham and they should be heir of the world,
of this and of that which is to come;
particularly the Heavenly Inheritance,
which He gave to him by Promise;
this was not made void, or had taken none effect:
for this was made only to Abraham and his Spiritual seed;

"and therefore though his carnal seed believed not,
and for their unbelief should be cut off,
this did not make the Faith, or Faithfulness of God of none effect:

"for they are not all Israel, which are of Israel";
that is, they which are the descendants of the patriarch Jacob,
whose name was Israel; or who are of the Israelitish nation,
of the stock of Israel, belonging to that people;

"they are not all , "the Israel", by way of emphasis,
as in Psalm 25:22, or the "Israel of God", Galatians 6:16,
the Israel whom Jehovah the Father
has Chosen for a peculiar people;

"which Christ has Redeemed from all their iniquities;

"which the Spirit of God calls with an Holy calling,
by special grace, to special privileges;

"the seed of Israel who are Justified in Christ,
whose iniquities are so pardoned and done away,
that when they are sought for they shall not be found,
and who are Saved in the Lord with an Everlasting Salvation:

"or in other words, again they are not all Chosen as "the Israel",
by way of emphasis, as in Psalm 25:22,
or the "Israel of God", Galatians 6:16,

"so, "they are not all Israel" and are
"Israel after the flesh", 1 Corinthians 10:18, yet not after the Spirit;

"though they are by nation Israelites, they are not Israelites "indeed",
as Nathanael was, John 1:47; they are Jews outwardly, not inwardly;

"and they have not all principles of Grace, Uprightness,
and Sincerity in them, from the Word of God in Salvation:

And yet, to the Chosen Israel of God,
"to these Spiritual Israelites, or seed of Abraham,
was the Word of God to come Effectually,
and the Promises of God concerning Spiritual
and Eternal things made,

and upon these Chosen Israel of God, these Spiritual Israelites,
or seed of Abraham the Word of God and the Promises
concerning Spiritual and Eternal things made had their Effect;

"and therefore it could not be said that the Word of God
had taken none effect;

"though the whole remaining body of Israel after the flesh
were cut off and rejected, because they had not been Chosen."

 

[CJP69]

He could be in error.

He is either in error or God is unjust. You pick.

The Calvinists may be right.

Not if God is real, no they cannot be. Ideas have consequences.

You might even be right.

If you can refute a syllable of my arguments, I will hear it gladly.

But if the only basis you have for considering any counter arguments to be valid are the presuppositions you already have then there is no sense being in discussion with you.

That's stupidity.

If nothing else you could challenge my presuppositions, which you cannot do without challenging the fact that God is personal, rational, relational, righteous and just because those are my presupposition when it comes to virtually any debate I engage against the heresy of Calvinism.

I felt bad before when you started talking like this because I don't want to be responsible for getting people riled up but this time it was unprovoked and I assume it is just the way you are.

I respond to what it written. About half the time I'm not even hardly paying attention to who said it. I state the truth as I see it and pay no mind to whether that truth is going to hurt someone's feelings. I learned a long time ago that no matter what you say or how you say it, someone is going to get all emotional and turn off their brain and so I stopped trying to be anything but as straight forward as possible.

If we had moderators you would not be on a Christian forum.

Removing them by force is often the only remedy again dissenting voices but what is it that I said to you that have you responding like this? You object to me picking something as intentionally random as potato chips? I don't get it.

If you can't bring anything more substantial than what you have so far then there isn't much more to say.

More substantive that the character of God?

What would you consider substantive if not the plain reading of scripture.....

"there are two nations in your womb" - a point that has been UNIVERSALLY ignored on this website (not just this thread), including by you, by the way.

....and the simple logic that says that God does not hate, much less condemn, unborn babies! - another point that has gone UNIVERSALLY ignored around here, including by you!

....not to mention the now countless times that I have stated and repeated over and over again the fact the God is just, therefore Calvinism is false, which just so happens to be a real and perfectly sound argument that every single participant on this forum, including you has completely ignored!

Instead, I get lectured by you and others about how I hurt the little girl feelings by telling it straight that those who teach that God is arbitrary are heretics. Are those who insult the honor of God supposed to be treated with respect and referred as Godly men in your view?

The god of Calvinism does not exist, David. If you think I'm harsh, your name's sake would have has such people stoned to death for blasphemy.

 

[DaveXR650]

If you can refute a syllable of my arguments, I will hear it gladly.

Let's start with this one:

....not to mention the now countless times that I have stated and repeated over and over again the fact the God is just, therefore Calvinism is false, which just so happens to be a real and perfectly sound argument that every single participant on this forum, including you has completely ignored!

That argument is so ridiculous that no one uses it except you, and for good reasons. The simple, observable facts are that there does not exist an equity of opportunity and circumstances that give everyone a fair chance at coming to Christ. That's why, if you look at atheist vs Christian apologist debates you find that is the chief atheist argument against Christianity. The way they put it is that God either is unable or doesn't care about the plight of men or else things would be observably different. A non-Calvinist free will system may give your ego a boost but it does not explain the inequities in life or in opportunity for salvation.

Calvinists start with the assumption that all of us are truly guilty and God would be just if we were all condemned. We are born guilty in some sense and then personally guilty if we live long enough to engage in sin voluntarily. And this is because of our free will, which you so highly value. Now, I am not a Calvinist in the strict sense some are and so I go in the common Reformed Baptist direction when it comes to salvation. Most Reformed Baptist churches teach that contrary to what you claim, that God is just, and therefore that is the biggest problem for us. How can we be saved as sinners, if God is just. Do you see from that how stupid your argument is that if God is just, Calvinism can't be true?

So without going into every detail, which books are written on, since the problem is our free will and where it got us, we need divine help beyond the gospel message, which is also needed. Again, reams are written on this. Since, divine help is needed, it must be selective, and sovereign in application or else you have universalism, which we deny. Now personally, I tend to view this divine enlightening or quickening as resistible but I admit that by definition, if it is necessary, and decisive, it could be called "effective" or even "irresistible" in one who gets saved.

Bottom line is this. No one who has a correct view of man's natural condition uses the "unjust" or "unfair" argument. All those who do are basing it upon a false view of man without God as neutral towards God, which is incorrect.

 

[DaveXR650]

....and the simple logic that says that God does not hate, much less condemn, unborn babies! - another point that has gone UNIVERSALLY ignored around here, including by you!

There are whole threads on this site, some of which I participated in, that go into this. I don't remember seeing you involved. So capitalize words all you want, that charge is a lie in two areas. It has been dealt with, and many staunch 5 point Calvinists don't teach such a thing. In fact, they refute it.

 

[DaveXR650]

Instead, I get lectured by you and others about how I hurt the little girl feelings by telling it straight that those who teach that God is arbitrary are heretics. Are those who insult the honor of God supposed to be treated with respect and referred as Godly men in your view?

The god of Calvinism does not exist, David. If you think I'm harsh, your name's sake would have has such people stoned to death for blasphemy.

I don't know how long any of us would last in the 1600's but what puzzles me is how you could be a member of any modern church which attempts to have Christian love. How do you do it, can you keep your mouth shut or are there whole groups like you, somewhere?