Romans 9 -- What Is It Saying?

[Me4Him]

Originally posted by whatever:
</font><blockquote>quote:</font><hr />Originally posted by Me4Him:
The question, is it "God's faith" or "man's faith".

Does God "FORCE" his faith on man to make him believe,

Or does God just give man the the choice to believe or not believe, with man making the decision between the two??

That's the question.

But yours are not the only two possible answers. Do you know what a "false dilemma" is?

My faith is given to me by God, and by it I freely choose to repent and believe. </font>[/QUOTE]Does God "FORCE" you to repent of your sins, or is that something "YOU" personally have to do??

Lu 13:3 I tell you, Nay: but, except ye repent, ye shall all likewise perish.

Joh 8:24 I said therefore unto you, that ye shall die in your sins: for "IF YE" believe not that I am he, ye shall die in your sins.

There's no place for God Predestine "ANY" to hell in the context of a God who loved/died for the sins of the whole world because he wasn't willing for "ANY" to perish.

No matter how much you twist/omit scripture.

Like all faults doctrine, you pick out one or two verses without considering the context of the whole, that's always prove them to be wrong.

Ya'll really amaze me, of all the "Stuff" posted here, you pick and chose what you prefer to believe, and then try to say you don't have a choice to believe what you hear/read,

Did it ever cross your mind that it works the same way reading the scriptures or hearing God's calling???

What you deny is manifested here in the "real world".

 

[Calvibaptist]

Originally posted by J.D.:
But unlike Calvi, I'm not willing to say that I'm "moving away" from dispyism, but I have been modifying my understanding of it quite a bit! I still believe in a future "regeneration" of national Israel.

From what I understand in my reading, JD, every CT also believes in a future regeneration of Israel. They do not believe in two separate peoples of God. But they believe that "all Israel will be saved" refers either to all elect Israel or every physical Israelite still alive at the second coming.

 

[J.D.]

Calvi, what is CT?

 

[J.D.]

I think I just guessed it - Covenant Theologians??

 

[Calvibaptist]

Yes.

 

[Calvibaptist]

Originally posted by Mel Miller:
I respect your response over that of Calvibaptist
because you seem to grasp a larger purpose beyond that of the question of Election and of
whether nations as well as individuals are included in that Election; and of who makes up
that Election in the case of individuals.

In one post you say you like my reasoning and in the next post you say you don't like my view????

Calvibaptist did not respond to my quest for his view of the greater purpose for the final, future saving of "all of Israel" by producing a remnant from the house of Jacob and re-uniting the Houses of Israel and Judah as given by Jeremiah and Heb.8:8-12.

I didn't want to get into an end-times debate with you because I have read some of your posts on that subject and have NO IDEA what you are talking about sometimes.

 

[Mel Miller]

Calvibaptist,

I liked your reasoning up to the point of those
whom God has chosen to be part of the olive tree of "Israel" in the faith of Christ.

But my question regards God's future plan for Israel as a "separate" people from that of the Body of Christ and/or Bride of the Lamb.

You now give the reason for not posting an
answer to my question, i.e., because you do
not understand my view.

The view of AresMan clearly anticipates the
renewal of the natural seed of Abraham as
rulers over the nations. In my view, it also
forsees establishing an eternal kingdom that
will "inherit the NEW earth forever" at the
end of the Millennium.

Perhaps you do not understand why we believe
in two "separate" peoples of God to be
initiated as of the personal return of Christ
under the "restoration of all things" that
relate to Israel's role among the nations.

The central aspect of that role, one to which
Jeremiah, Ezekiel, Zech.14:9-21, Heb.8:8-12, Rom.11:27-32, Rev.15:4, 2:25-27 and 19:15 point is the outgoing "mercy" of God under a strict Theocratic rule through Israel to all nations for 1000 years.

The purpose for extending this mercy on God's part is that "His will to be done on earth as in heaven". The condition for "inheriting the kingdom" will be the "obedience of faith" expressed by:

1. Worshiping God and keeping the sacrifices to
confirm the faith of whole nations created
from the "tribes of earth" (including Ishmael's descendants) who "pray to escape" God's wrath on the Day of Wrath and "prevail to stand before the Son of Man". Luke 21:36. They must be
"willing to die to be kept alive". Luke 17:33.

2. The outward treatment these nations give to the "brothers of Jesus". Matt.25:32-46.

I believe the "goat nations" will be made up
of the Gog and Magog nations deceived by Satan
and that this brings God's final wrath upon rebellious nations and the creation of a new
earth from which the Kings of the Sheep nations
will "bring their glory and honor into the New
Jerusalem and they continue to be healed by
the leaves of the tree of life". Rev.21:24-26;
Rev.22:2,14.

Mel Miller www.lastday.net

 

[Joseph_Botwinick]

Originally posted by Marcia:
</font><blockquote>quote:</font><hr />Originally posted by Joseph_Botwinick:
The one flaw I see in your argument is that he is not only speaking of the nation of Israel...as Pharaoh (the leader of Egypt) was the object of wrath whom he hardened. Now, a question for you, Marcia:

Why does it state in Romans 9 that God hardened Pharaoh's heart?

I started this thread and have not had a chance to look at it until very late tonight!

I think in context -- and I mean by looking back in Exodus -- we see that Pharaoh was given the chance to listen to God but he refused. God "hardened" his heart because Pharaoh was already not wanting to hear God -- he was an Egyptian who worshiped other gods, after all. Even after being presented with the evidence of the true God, he did not want to acknowledge Him. So God hardened his heart -- I take this the same way as the phrases that say God "gave them over" in many other passages. </font>[/QUOTE]That isn't the reason Paul gave in Romans 9. Was he wrong?

17For the Scripture says to Pharaoh: "I raised you up for this very purpose, that I might display my power in you and that my name might be proclaimed in all the earth." 18Therefore God has mercy on whom he wants to have mercy, and he hardens whom he wants to harden.

Joseph Botwinick

 

[J.D.]

The fact that Pharaoh hardened his own heart is an important facet of calvinism which is being misunderstood. Calvinism teaches that man is in a state of sin, OF HIS OWN CHOOSING. Adam placed his posterity into that state by his disobedience. We are born into that fallen state, and our works do show forth that state as soon as our faculties allow. So all of us, by human birth, as children of Adam, are sinners by nature and by practice. And every sin we do, WE CHOOSE TO DO IT.

This state of sin is a UNIVERSAL condition of man. Think of it as the "scene" at which God arrives before he ever does anything else for either man's redemption or punishment. Hence the words of John "For God sent not his son into the world to condemn the world...they are condemned already."

At this point, God has to do nothing else to send man into perdition.

So it was with Pharaoh, that his heart was hard of his own accord. So then is God unjust if he chooses to further harden the heart in order to accomplish His eternal purpose? Absolutely not.

Now let's go back to God arriving on this "scene" of universal sin and condemnation. God has no obligation whatsoever to save ANYONE, for they are all sinners.

What if God chose at this time to save, let's say, Helen, and only Helen, by His grace (unmerited favor). Is he then unjust because he has shown mercy on only one of the miserable wretches which do not deserve mercy? Absolutely not.

And what if God chose to save not only Helen, but also a great multitude of undeserving sinners? Is he then unjust because he has not saved all? Absolutely not!

And carry it on out - if God in mercy chose to save everyone except one person, would he be unjust because he has left one in sin and judgement? Absolutely not.

The only way God could ever be unjust in the condemnation of anyone, is if He had an OBLIGATION to save them.

And if God created a vessel fitted for distruction, is he then unjust if He executes the destruction for which the vessel was fitted? Absolutely not!

God is omnipotent, and we are insolent blasphemers to question His ways.

Worship Him in the beauty of His Holiness!

 

[Calvibaptist]

Originally posted by Mel Miller:
[QB] Calvibaptist,

I liked your reasoning up to the point of those
whom God has chosen to be part of the olive tree of "Israel" in the faith of Christ.

But my question regards God's future plan for Israel as a "separate" people from that of the Body of Christ and/or Bride of the Lamb.

Mel, I didn't say I didn't understand your view. I have been a dispensationalist all my life. I said I don't understand most of your posts. They assume too much and go on and on.

You and I are going to disagree on this issue. If I were to call myself a dispy (which I shy away from these days) I would be a Progressive Dispensationalist. I believe in one people of God for all eternity. The Gentiles have been grafted into the olive tree of Israel and there is no mention of them being re-separated.

Once all the Gentiles who are going to be saved are (the fullness of the Gentiles), Christ will return. As He returns, those Jews who are alive at the time will "look on them whom they have pierced and will mourn." The Deliverer will come out of Zion and all Israel will be saved. This is what Romans 11 says in plain English. Plain, normative, literal interpretation.

 

[Mel Miller]

Calvibaptist,

Still very well put as we do agree to this point:

"The Deliverer will come out of Zion and all Israel will be saved. This is what Romans 11 says in plain English. Plain, normative, literal interpretation".

I do not know if the Israel's remnant "saved"
AFTER
Christ appears will belong to the Body/Bride
of Christ, or not.

The answer would determine when these saved
Jews receive their glorified bodies and whether
they will be part of the Bride that inhabits
the New Jerusalem OR part of the eternal
kingdom which the sheep nations inherit at the
END of the Millennium.

But who will populate the Kingdom?

This is the heart of my question as to "what
is God's overall purpose" during the Millennium?

The answer to this question is what separates
Calvinism and Progressive Dispensationalism.

Mel www.lastday.net

 

[Marcia]

Originally posted by Joseph_Botwinick:
</font><blockquote>quote:</font><hr /> 17For the Scripture says to Pharaoh: "I raised you up for this very purpose, that I might display my power in you and that my name might be proclaimed in all the earth." 18Therefore God has mercy on whom he wants to have mercy, and he hardens whom he wants to harden.

Joseph Botwinick </font>[/QUOTE]This verse says God raised Pharaoh up for a purpose -- God knew Pharaoh would resist God and God hardened his heart, which was already disobedient, and God used that. Pharaoh worshipped other gods. It's not like he was a follower of Yahweh and then hardened his heart. Pharaoh was already lost and worshiping false gods. He had words from God via Moses and refused to listen. The fact it says God hardened his heart does not mean God went against Pharaoh's will to obey God! Pharaoh never showed such an inclination. God raised Pharaoh up to that position at that point in time for the purpose of revealing his glory through the deliverance of the Israelites.

 

[Joseph_Botwinick]

Marcia,

You are right. God did not go against his free will. Since Pharaoh was lost, his free will was to reject God and his message. But, it is clear that God caused his heart to be hardened beyond the point of return, and that God did so for his glory to be revealed to the nations. Calvinists do not believe that God will go against the free will of the non-elect.

It is the elect who are his vessels of mercy and whose wills are overcome. If the decision were left in the hands of the lost, none of us would choose Jesus and all of us would go to Hell.

Joseph Botwinick

 

[Marcia]

So, Joseph, what were we disagreeing about?

 

[Joseph_Botwinick]

I believe I was disagreeing with you that this chapter only deals with Israel. Is there anything else?

Joseph Botwinick

 

[Mel Miller]

Friends,

I think you are emphasizing the cause instead
of the effect of God "hardening" the heart of
Pharaoh. God will first prove the wickedness of
those who come against His earthly people and
then He will deliver them and "SHOW MERCY" on
all mankind. Rom.11:27-33.

My question regards God's future plan for Israel as a "separate" people from that of the Body of Christ and/or Bride of the Lamb.

The eternal kingdom to be "inherited" by sheep
nations at the end of the Millennium is not
the same Kingdom of the Bride/Body of Christ
who will "inhabit" the New Jerusalem. Matt.25:
32-34. The goat nations will be separated from
the sheep and cast to Hell at the END of the
Millennial Kingdom.

The "goats" will be part of the nations that
come against Jerusalem at the final battle of
Gog and Magog. There will be trillions of
people after 1000 years of "populating" earth.

Mel www.lastday.net

 

[Calvibaptist]

Mel, I will continue to disagree with you that Israel and the Church are a separate people since the cross. Very clearly, Romans 11 says that Gentiles have been grafted into the olive tree. It doesn't sound to me like Paul is describing a new entity called the Church. I seems very clear that Paul is describing an addition to an old entity.

It is the same thing in Ephesians 2. The dividing wall has been broken down and the Gentiles, which were afar off have been brought near. The mystery in Ephesians is not the Church, per se. The mystery is that Gentiles have been included alongside Jews in the church.

OT Israel always had believers and unbelievers. Romans 9 is telling us that physical Israel never really mattered. It was always about the children of promise, or spiritual Israel. Today we call that the Church, or "The Israel of God."

 

[Mel Miller]

Calvibaptist,

I AGREE with every word of your following statements:
________________________________________________
"Very clearly, Romans 11 says that Gentiles have been grafted into the olive tree. It doesn't sound to me like Paul is describing a new entity called the Church. I seems very clear that Paul is describing an addition to an old entity.

"It is the same thing in Ephesians 2. The dividing wall has been broken down and the Gentiles, which were afar off have been brought near. The mystery in Ephesians is not the Church, per se.

"OT Israel always had believers and unbelievers".

But I do not believe "that Israel and the Church
are a separate people since the cross". Since
I agree with your above statements, how could
I agree with a theory of two peoples of God
since the Cross? All believers are now "a people
of God" just as saved OT Israelites were "a
people of God".
_________________________________________________

But I would modify your statement:

"The mystery is that Gentiles have been included alongside Jews in the church".

Of course; but Paul is not referring to unity of the Jews of the NT age with Gentiles in the
Church!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!

Instead, the mystery is that Gentiles are now being included alongside the saved of O. T. Israel in a new building whose foundation is
not the same as that of the Church. The Church
is only a part of the New Body or Building.

I completely and forcefully disagree with your
concluding statement:
______________________________________________
"Romans 9 is telling us that physical Israel never really mattered".
______________________________________________

IMO, you disregard the PURPOSE that concerns
the future, Millennial period, when God will
show "mercy to all mankind"!

The whole point is that Israel must again
become "a people of God by whom all mankind
will know the Lord, from the least to the
greatest" ... but only when God has concluded
Gentiles (as well as Jews) in a state of
total disobedience ... not just "unbelief".

Mel www.lastday.net

 

[Mel Miller]

Calvibaptist,

I AGREE with every word of your following statements:
________________________________________________
"Very clearly, Romans 11 says that Gentiles have been grafted into the olive tree. It doesn't sound to me like Paul is describing a new entity called the Church. I seems very clear that Paul is describing an addition to an old entity.

"It is the same thing in Ephesians 2. The dividing wall has been broken down and the Gentiles, which were afar off have been brought near. The mystery in Ephesians is not the Church, per se.

"OT Israel always had believers and unbelievers".

But I do not believe "that Israel and the Church
are a separate people since the cross". Since
I agree with your above statements, how could
I agree with a theory of two peoples of God
since the Cross? All believers are now "a people
of God" just as saved OT Israelites were "a
people of God".
_________________________________________________

But I would modify your statement:

"The mystery is that Gentiles have been included alongside Jews in the church".

Of course; but Paul is not referring to unity of the Jews of the NT age with Gentiles in the
Church!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!

Instead, the mystery is that Gentiles are now being included alongside the saved of O. T. Israel in a new building whose foundation is
not the same as that of the Church. The Church
is only a part of the New Body or Building.

I completely and forcefully disagree with your
concluding statement:
______________________________________________
"Romans 9 is telling us that physical Israel never really mattered".
______________________________________________

IMO, you disregard the PURPOSE that concerns
the future, Millennial period, when God will
show "mercy to all mankind"!

The whole point is that Israel must again
become "a people of God by whom all mankind
will know the Lord, from the least to the
greatest" ... but only when God has concluded
Gentiles (as well as Jews) in a state of
total disobedience ... not just "unbelief".

Mel www.lastday.net

 

[Mel Miller]

Calvibaptist,

I AGREE with every word of your following statements:
________________________________________________
"Very clearly, Romans 11 says that Gentiles have been grafted into the olive tree. It doesn't sound to me like Paul is describing a new entity called the Church. I seems very clear that Paul is describing an addition to an old entity.

"It is the same thing in Ephesians 2. The dividing wall has been broken down and the Gentiles, which were afar off have been brought near. The mystery in Ephesians is not the Church, per se.

"OT Israel always had believers and unbelievers".

But I do not believe "that Israel and the Church
are a separate people since the cross". Since
I agree with your above statements, how could
I agree with a theory of two peoples of God
since the Cross? All believers are now "a people
of God" just as saved OT Israelites were "a
people of God".
_________________________________________________

But I would modify your statement:

"The mystery is that Gentiles have been included alongside Jews in the church".

Of course; but Paul is not referring to unity of the Jews of the NT age with Gentiles in the
Church!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!

Instead, the mystery is that Gentiles are now being included alongside the saved of O. T. Israel in a new building whose foundation is
not the same as that of the Church. The Church
is only a part of the New Body or Building.

I completely and forcefully disagree with your
concluding statement:
______________________________________________
"Romans 9 is telling us that physical Israel never really mattered".
______________________________________________

IMO, you disregard the PURPOSE that concerns
the future, Millennial period, when God will
show "mercy to all mankind"!

The whole point is that Israel must again
become "a people of God by whom all mankind
will know the Lord, from the least to the
greatest" ... but only when God has concluded
Gentiles (as well as Jews) in a state of
total disobedience ... not just "unbelief".

Mel www.lastday.net