Romans 9

[Charlie24]

If you're not familiar with Romans 9 in the context of TULIP, it's a favorite place where the TULIP dreamers go thinking they have proven unconditional election. But it taint so.

Unconditional election denies that God in His foreknowledge looks into the future and determines His elect by free will faith. They believe God by His sovereign will chooses who will be saved and man does not have a choice in the matter.

But what does the Scripture say?

1 Peter 1:1-2

"Peter, an apostle of Jesus Christ, to the strangers scattered throughout Pontus, Galatia, Cappadocia, Asia, and Bithynia,

Elect according to the foreknowledge of God the Father, through sanctification of the Spirit, unto obedience and sprinkling of the blood of Jesus Christ: Grace unto you, and peace, be multiplied."

Uh-oh, yet another contradiction added to the many I posted yesterday. It's a never ending cycle of contradictions. But that is no obstacle for the TULIP dreamer, they just ignore it, it just isn't there.

So they ignore plain Scripture and say, hey let's go to Romans 9. Here they have a sure-fire fact of unconditional election, or so they think.

There are probably 3-4 places in Romans 9 they like to take you, just with a wild guess, maybe Romans 9:11 is where they keep the hammer.

"(For the children being not yet born, neither having done any good or evil, that the purpose of God according to election might stand, not of works, but of him that calleth"

Paul has been discussing Israel in the state of unbelief and is in agony over it, his fellow kinsmen, chosen of God but lost.

Paul shoots down Israel's national belief that they are saved by the circumcision covenant through Abraham their father in 9:6-9. He says, "neither because they are the seed of Abraham are they all children, but in Isaac shall your seed be called."

They are not saved by Abraham's covenant, they must be saved by the faith of Abraham and Isaac.

Then in vs 11 Paul is speaking of Esau and Jacob, who were twins. We read again.

"(For the children being not yet born, neither having done any good or evil, that the purpose of God according to election might stand, not of works, but of him that calleth"

Look at the bold above, now remember what Peter said, "Elect according to the foreknowledge of God the Father,"

Paul is speaking of the "purpose of God according to election, the same thing Peter refers to as "the elect according to the foreknowledge of God."

Paul is not speaking of an unconditional election, but the election standing by His foreknowledge of faith.

God chose Jacob as the birthright through His foreknowledge knowing Jacob would choose to believe and be saved by faith.

The purpose would be that Christ would be born into this world through the seed of Abraham, Isaac, and Jacob by an election of faith.

Only by faith is Israel the children of God.

 

[Dave G]

If you're not familiar with Romans 9 in the context of TULIP, it's a favorite place where the TULIP dreamers go thinking they have proven unconditional election. But it taint so.

Unconditional election denies that God in His foreknowledge looks into the future and determines His elect by free will faith. They believe God by His sovereign will chooses who will be saved and man does not have a choice in the matter.

But what does the Scripture say?

Charlie,
So far what I've seen in your opening post, is something along the lines of what parts of it can and cannot mean... when what I was hoping for, was something a bit more than just a summary of what it does mean.

As far as a treatise or an overall summarization goes, I'm following your line of thinking... but I'm still am not seeing what I asked for in the other thread.
Rather, I'm seeing something that I would call, "topical" in its nature, which is not as thorough as I had anticipated.

As I mentioned in the other thread,
May I suggest that in order to correct someone regarding what you see as an error in their thinking, would it not be better to carefully "exegete" (expound ), Romans 9 as a chapter, line by line / "verse" by "verse"?
In my mind, that should at least settle any doubts between how you, and how those who disagree with you, are reading it and using it.

I am also confident that if this were performed, then it should effectively give those who disagree with you at least the insight into the how and the why your own mind is understanding the chapter when you read it for yourself.



On a side note,
I've seen this sort of thing done in college with math problems and the like, when the professor shows his or her work on the board... and the students then gain insight into how the instructor "got their answers".

 

[Dave G]

Also:

I'd very much like to request that as you do this, if you would please refrain from referencing anyone else's thoughts by bringing in material or ideas from things like commentaries and articles written by those who have theology backgrounds.
I'm much more interested in seeing how you read it for yourself, alone and uninfluenced by anyone outside of your own personal studies in God's word.
Scripture itself should be enough to convince anyone, as I see it.

The reason that I ask this?

Since I'm often accused of being a "Calvinist" and did not get any of my understanding from him or from anyone who is a "Calvinist / Reformed",
I think it fair that anyone who also doesn't claim to be one, should be able to articulate what they also believe from the Bible...
Without getting any of their understanding of it from "non-Calvinists / Arminians / Molinists, etc", seminaries, commentaries, articles and other things that they may agree with an author on...no matter how highly regarded they may be.

We as Christians should not only know what we believe, but we should also be able to stand all by ourselves on what it says.
In other words, I believe that a true ( and therefore personal ) belief of God's word should be something that rests with the individual, not a group or denomination.

If you like, I can start off first;
Then you can do the same thing I do, giving your own line-by-line comparison so that the readers here can see how we are each understanding the passage as a whole.

I await your reply, sir.

 

[Charlie24]

Charlie,
So far what I've seen in your opening post, is something along the lines of what parts of it can and cannot mean... when what I was hoping for, was something a bit more than just a summary of what it does mean.

As far as a treatise or an overall summarization goes, I'm following your line of thinking... but I'm still am not seeing what I asked for in the other thread.
Rather, I'm seeing something that I would call, "topical" in its nature, which is not as thorough as I had anticipated.

As I mentioned in the other thread,
May I suggest that in order to correct someone regarding what you see as an error in their thinking, would it not be better to carefully "exegete" (expound ), Romans 9 as a chapter, line by line / "verse" by "verse"?
In my mind, that should at least settle any doubts between how you, and how those who disagree with you, are reading it and using it.

I am also confident that if this were performed, then it should effectively give those who disagree with you at least the insight into the how and the why your own mind is understanding the chapter when you read it for yourself.



On a side note,
I've seen this sort of thing done in college with math problems and the like, when the professor shows his or her work on the board... and the students then gain insight into how the instructor "got their answers".

The great sin of TULIP is leaving out the theme of Scripture.

It's like the UR (Universal Restoration) focusing on what they manipulate and ignoring everything else.

 

[Zaatar71]

One reason C24 does not arrive at truth is he misunderstands rom(;6-9}

Seed of Abraham =Natural descendants....sperma Abraham

Children of promise...the elect remnant....Teknon...The elect remnant, alongside the Elect gentiles, one new man in Christ.

 

[Charlie24]

One reason C24 does not arrive at truth is he misunderstands rom(;6-9}

Seed of Abraham =Natural descendants....sperma Abraham

Children of promise...the elect remnant....Teknon...The elect remnant, alongside the Elect gentiles, one new man in Christ.

That's pretty much the way Calvin did it, reasoning himself into heresy and ignoring the sign posts along the way.

 

[Zaatar71]

That's pretty much the way Calvin did it, reasoning himself into heresy and ignoring the sign posts along the way.

No my friend, that is what the text actually says, we unlike you believe it!
For Evangelism or for Mature Audiences Only?



There is a prevalent opinion that says that Calvinism should be, if it is discussed at all, reserved for more mature Christians, not taught to new converts, and certainly never ever preached to the unbelievers in an evangelistic message. This is one result of the idea that Calvinism is somehow incompatible with evangelism. From the several sermons quoted, it is obvious that Spurgeon did not believe that Calvinism should be hidden from the unconverted nor the new believer. Why? Because Calvinism is the Gospel:

There is no such thing as preaching Christ and Him crucified, unless we preach what nowadays is called Calvinism. It is a nickname to call it Calvinism; Calvinism is the gospel, and nothing else. I do not believe we can preach the gospel, if we do not preach justification by faith, without works; nor unless we preach the sovereignty of God in His dispensation of grace; nor unless we exalt the electing, unchangeable, eternal, immutable, conquering love of Jehovah; nor do I think we can preach the gospel, unless we base it upon the special and particular redemption of His elect and chosen people which Christ wrought out upon the cross; nor can I comprehend a gospel which lets saints fall away after they are called .after having once believed in Jesus. Such a gospel I abhor.

Those who preach a gospel devoid of the five points commonly called Calvinism are not preaching the Gospel at all, but a false gospel.

If Calvinism is appropriate for the unconverted, certainly it is fitting for all Christians. Condemning the preachers who want to censor Calvinism, Spurgeon said: “There has sprung up in the Church of Christ an idea that there are many things taught in the Bible which are not essential .†.†. that provided we are right in the fundamentals, the other things are of no concern.

It becomes an awful thing .†.†. for men to leave a single mandate unstudied, lest we shall lead others astray, while we ourselves are acting in disobedience to God. .†.†.”20 Spurgeon said: “It were better for me that I had never been born than that I preach to these people carelessly, or keep back any part of my Master’s truth. Better to have been a devil than a preacher playing fast and loose with God’s Word, and by such means working ruin of the souls of men. .†.†. It will be the height of my ambition to be clear of the blood of all men.”21 He was, of course, referring to Acts 20:26-27, where Paul, in a farewell address to the Ephesian elders, says he was cleared of the blood of all men because he has not kept back any doctrines in his evangelism and preaching. Those who avoid the doctrines of predestination and the inability of man’s will, and who censor others from teaching them, have blood on their hands.

 

[Dave G]

The great sin of TULIP is leaving out the theme of Scripture.

Charlie,

I'm not asking for the "theme".
I'm asking for an expounding of the passage...Again, line by line and verse by verse.

Is there something wrong with what I'm asking?

I'll tell you what, I'll go first..
But I'll have to break it up into blocks, as the passage is fairly long.

 

[Charlie24]

Charlie,

I'm not asking for the "theme".
I'm asking for an expounding of the passage...Again, line by line and verse by verse.

Is there something wrong with what I'm asking?

I'll tell you what, I'll go first..
But I'll have to break it up into blocks, as the passage is fairly long.

Go ahead, I've got your #.

 

[Dave G]

" I say the truth in Christ, I lie not, my conscience also bearing me witness in the Holy Ghost,
2 that I have great heaviness and continual sorrow in my heart.
3 For I could wish that myself were accursed from Christ for my brethren, my kinsmen according to the flesh:
4 who are Israelites; to whom [pertaineth] the adoption, and the glory, and the covenants, and the giving of the law, and the service of God, and the promises;
5 whose [are] the fathers, and of whom as concerning the flesh Christ [came], who is over all, God blessed for ever. Amen.

6 Not as though the word of God hath taken none effect. For they [are] not all Israel, which are of Israel:
7 neither, because they are the seed of Abraham, [are they] all children: but, In Isaac shall thy seed be called.
8 That is, They which are the children of the flesh, these [are] not the children of God: but the children of the promise are counted for the seed.
( Romans 9:1-8 ).

Now, my own personal commentary on the passage, verse by verse:

1) Paul here is telling the reader that he is telling the truth in Christ...he is not lying, and his conscience is also bearing him witness in the Holy Spirit.
2) ...that he has grat heaviness and continual sorrow in his heart;
3) For he could wish ( not that he does wish, but that he could wish ) himself accursed from Christ for his brethren and kinsman according to the flesh. Who are they?
4) They are Israelites. The very same Israelites to whom the adoption and glory and the covenants and the giving of the Law and the Service of God were given. The very same Israelites that the promises of God under the Old Testament were given to their fathers: Abraham, Isaac and Jacob..
5) The very same Israelites of whom, concerning the flesh, Christ was over all of them. It was He who spoke to Moses in the burning bush, it was He who spoke to Moses, as the Word, on Mount Sinai. He then pronounces God as blessed forever.
6) Now he is revealing that it is not as though the word of God has taken no effect, or had no affect: The reason? He declares that they are not all "Israel" which are "of Israel" ( of Jacob's lineage ).
7) Neither, because they are all the seed of Abraham, are they all children. Children of whom? We're not told here. BUT, "in Isaac" God's seed will be called.
8) Now he defines what he started to say in 7, by telling us that, "they which are the children of the flesh, these are not the children of Abraham", which means to me that the physical descendants of Abraham are not his true children...but the children of the promise are counted for "the seed". This fits other Scriptures like Galatians 4, that tell us that we as believers are the children of the promise.

More to follow.

 

[Charlie24]

" I say the truth in Christ, I lie not, my conscience also bearing me witness in the Holy Ghost,
2 that I have great heaviness and continual sorrow in my heart.
3 For I could wish that myself were accursed from Christ for my brethren, my kinsmen according to the flesh:
4 who are Israelites; to whom [pertaineth] the adoption, and the glory, and the covenants, and the giving of the law, and the service of God, and the promises;
5 whose [are] the fathers, and of whom as concerning the flesh Christ [came], who is over all, God blessed for ever. Amen.

6 Not as though the word of God hath taken none effect. For they [are] not all Israel, which are of Israel:
7 neither, because they are the seed of Abraham, [are they] all children: but, In Isaac shall thy seed be called.
8 That is, They which are the children of the flesh, these [are] not the children of God: but the children of the promise are counted for the seed.
( Romans 9:1-8 ).

Now, my own personal commentary on the passage, verse by verse:

1) Paul here is telling the reader that he is telling the truth in Christ...he is not lying, and his conscience is also bearing him witness in the Holy Spirit.
2) ...that he has grat heaviness and continual sorrow in his heart;
3) For he could wish ( not that he does wish, but that he could wish ) himself accursed from Christ for his brethren and kinsman according to the flesh. Who are they?
4) They are Israelites. The very same Israelites to whom the adoption and glory and the covenants and the giving of the Law and the Service of God were given. The very same Israelites that the promises of God under the Old Testament were given to their fathers: Abraham, Isaac and Jacob..
5) The very same Israelites of whom, concerning the flesh, Christ was over all of them. It was He who spoke to Moses in the burning bush, it was He who spoke to Moses, as the Word, on Mount Sinai. He then pronounces God as blessed forever.
6) Now he is revealing that it is not as though the word of God has taken no effect, or had no affect: The reason? He declares that they are not all "Israel" which are "of Israel" ( of Jacob's lineage ).
7) Neither, because they are all the seed of Abraham, are they all children. Children of whom? We're not told here. BUT, "in Isaac" God's seed will be called.
8) Now he defines what he started to say in 7, by telling us that, "they which are the children of the flesh, these are not the children of Abraham", which means to me that the physical descendants of Abraham are not his true children...but the children of the promise are counted for "the seed". This fits other Scriptures like Galatians 4, that tell us that we as believers are the children of the promise.

More to follow.

OK, Dave G, let's get it right!

All of Israel is not Israel because all of Israel is not in the faith of Israel (Jacob).

This whole chapter is on Israel's unbelief in Christ.

Israel believed they were saved by being a descendant of Abraham through circumcision.

Paul says no! You are of the seed of Abraham by faith in Christ.

That was a very precious few.

Dave G, the seed that would come through Abraham, Isaac and Jacob was Christ.

Without faith in Christ they are not the children of God, they were not exercising the faith of Abraham.

 

[Dave G]

9 For this [is] the word of promise, At this time will I come, and Sara shall have a son.
10 And not only [this]; but when Rebecca also had conceived by one, [even] by our father Isaac;
11 ( for [the children] being not yet born, neither having done any good or evil, that the purpose of God according to election might stand, not of works, but of him that calleth; )
12 it was said unto her, The elder shall serve the younger.
13 As it is written, Jacob have I loved, but Esau have I hated.

14 What shall we say then? [Is there] unrighteousness with God? God forbid.
15 For he saith to Moses, I will have mercy on whom I will have mercy, and I will have compassion on whom I will have compassion.
16 So then [it is] not of him that willeth, nor of him that runneth, but of God that sheweth mercy.
17 For the scripture saith unto Pharaoh, Even for this same purpose have I raised thee up, that I might shew my power in thee, and that my name might be declared throughout all the earth.
18 Therefore hath he mercy on whom he will [have mercy], and whom he will he hardeneth." ( Romans 9:9-18 )

9) This is the "word of promise": The Lord promised that at a certain time He would come, and Sarah shall have a son.
10) Not only that, but when Rebecca had conceived by Isaac...
11) These being not yet born, neither having done any good or evil, so that the purpose of God according to election might stand...not of works, but "of" ( originating with ) Him that calls.
12) it was said to her ( Rebecca, see Genesis 25:23 ) by the Lord that "the elder shall serve the younger".
13) Now comes the part it seems many don't like the sound of... The Lord tells us that He specifically loved Jacob and hated Esau ( see Malachi 1:2-3 ).
14) With this in mind, what shall we, as believers, then say? Is God unrighteous to love Jacob and to hate Esau? No.
15) The statement is made from the Lord ( see Exodus 33:19 ), " I will have mercy on whom I will have mercy, and I will have compassion on whom I will have compassion".
16) So then His mercy and compassion is not of "him who wills" ( our own individual will ), neither is it of "him who runs" ( the person who makes an effort ), but it is entirely of God who shows His mercy.
17) For the Scripture says to Pharoah ( see Exodus 9:16 ), "Even for this same purpose ( the purpose of showing mercy and compassion to one, and not to another ) Has God raised up Pharoah...so that He might show His power in him and over him, and that God's name might be declared in all the earth.
18) Because of this, we're reminded that God has mercy on whom He will have mercy, and whom He wills, He hardens the heart of....just as the Lord told Moses that He would do to Pharoah.

Again, more to follow.

 

[Charlie24]

OK, Dave G, let's get it right!

All of Israel is not Israel because all of Israel is not in the faith of Israel (Jacob).

This whole chapter is on Israel's unbelief in Christ.

Israel believed they were saved by being a descendant of Abraham through circumcision.

Paul says no! You are of the seed of Abraham by faith in Christ.

That was a very precious few.

Dave G, the seed that would come through Abraham, Isaac and Jacob was Christ.

Without faith in Christ they are not the children of God, they were not exercising the faith of Abraham.

9 For this [is] the word of promise, At this time will I come, and Sara shall have a son.
10 And not only [this]; but when Rebecca also had conceived by one, [even] by our father Isaac;
11 ( for [the children] being not yet born, neither having done any good or evil, that the purpose of God according to election might stand, not of works, but of him that calleth; )
12 it was said unto her, The elder shall serve the younger.
13 As it is written, Jacob have I loved, but Esau have I hated.

14 What shall we say then? [Is there] unrighteousness with God? God forbid.
15 For he saith to Moses, I will have mercy on whom I will have mercy, and I will have compassion on whom I will have compassion.
16 So then [it is] not of him that willeth, nor of him that runneth, but of God that sheweth mercy.
17 For the scripture saith unto Pharaoh, Even for this same purpose have I raised thee up, that I might shew my power in thee, and that my name might be declared throughout all the earth.
18 Therefore hath he mercy on whom he will [have mercy], and whom he will he hardeneth." ( Romans 9:9-18 )

9) This is the "word of promise": The Lord promised that at a certain time He would come, and Sarah shall have a son.
10) Not only that, but when Rebecca had conceived by Isaac...
11) These being not yet born, neither having done any good or evil, so that the purpose of God according to election might stand...not of works, but "of" ( originating with ) Him that calls.
12) it was said to her ( Rebecca, see Genesis 25:23 ) by the Lord that the elder shall serve the younger.
13) Now comes the part it seems many don't like the sound of... The Lord tells us that He specifically loved Jacob and hated Esau ( see Malachi 1:2-3 ).
14) With this in mind, what shall we, as believers, then say? Is God unrighteous to love Jacob and to hate Esau? No.
15) The statement is made from the Lord ( see Exodus 33:19 ), " I will have mercy on whom I will have mercy, and I will have compassion on whom I will have compassion".
16) So then His mercy and compassion is not of "him who wills" ( our own individual will ), neither is it of "him who runs" ( the person who makes an effort ), but it is entirely of God who shows His mercy.
17) For the Scripture says to Pharoah ( see Exodus 9:16 ), "Even for this same purpose ( the purpose of showing mercy and compassion to one, and not to another ) Has God raised up Pharoah...so that He might show His power in him and over him, and that God's name might be declared in all the earth.
18) Because of this, we're reminded that God has mercy on whom He will have mercy, and whom He wills, He hardens the heart of....just as the Lord told Moses that He would do to Pharoah.

Again, more to follow.

We must settle who are "the children of promise counted for the seed" as Paul said before moving on, Dave G.

 

[Dave G]

"Thou wilt say then unto me, Why doth he yet find fault? For who hath resisted his will?
20 Nay but, O man, who art thou that repliest against God? Shall the thing formed say to him that formed [it], Why hast thou made me thus?
21 Hath not the potter power over the clay, of the same lump to make one vessel unto honour, and another unto dishonour?
22 [What] if God, willing to shew [his] wrath, and to make his power known, endured with much longsuffering the vessels of wrath fitted to destruction:
23 and that he might make known the riches of his glory on the vessels of mercy, which he had afore prepared unto glory,
24 even us, whom he hath called, not of the Jews only, but also of the Gentiles?
25 As he saith also in Osee, I will call them my people, which were not my people; and her beloved, which was not beloved.
26 And it shall come to pass, [that] in the place where it was said unto them, Ye [are] not my people; there shall they be called the children of the living God. " ( Romans 9:19-26 )

19) Paul says to the objector: " You will then say to me, "why does God find fault with us, then? Who has resisted the will of God?
20) "No, but o man, who are you to reply against God?" Shall the thing formed ( that's us ) say to Him that formed ( that's the Lord ), "Why did you make me this way?"
21) The example is given: " Does the potter not have power over the clay, of the same lump to make one pot good and honorable, and another to a dishonorable way?"
22) God, who is willing to show His wrath and to make His power known to His creation, endures with great patience those "pots" that will see His wrath and who were fitted to their destruction...
23) The reason being so that He might make known the riches of His glory on the "pots" of His mercy, which He had beforehand prepared for His glory.
24) Those same "pots" of His mercy were us ( believers, whom Paul is addressing in this letter ), whom God has "called"...not only from the Jewish nation, but of the Gentile ones as well.
25 ) Paul reminds us of a prophecy in Hosea, where the Lord says, " I will call them my people ( His children ) which were not my people ( the nation of Israel ), and her beloved which was not beloved. To illustrate this someday coming to pass, Hosea was commanded by God to take a wife who was wicked in the sight of Him and make her and her children his own.
26) This same thing is repeated, and it is emphasized that the people who were "not His people" shall indeed be the children of the living God.

Last part next.

 

[Dave G]

" Esaias also crieth concerning Israel, Though the number of the children of Israel be as the sand of the sea, a remnant shall be saved:
28 for he will finish the work, and cut [it] short in righteousness: because a short work will the Lord make upon the earth.
29 And as Esaias said before, Except the Lord of Sabaoth had left us a seed, we had been as Sodoma, and been made like unto Gomorrha.
30 What shall we say then? That the Gentiles, which followed not after righteousness, have attained to righteousness, even the righteousness which is of faith.
31 But Israel, which followed after the law of righteousness, hath not attained to the law of righteousness.
32 Wherefore? Because [they sought it] not by faith, but as it were by the works of the law. For they stumbled at that stumblingstone;
33 as it is written, Behold, I lay in Sion a stumblingstone and rock of offence: and whosoever believeth on him shall not be ashamed." ( Romans 9:27-33 ).

27) Here Paul refers to Isaiah prophesying against Israel, and tells us that although the number of the children of Israel ( Jacob's physical lineage ) is as the sand of the sea ( a very great number ), only a remnant of them ( a very small number, relatively ) will be saved.
28) Because God will finish His work and cut it short in righteousness, and because a short work ( from our poinnt of view ) will the Lord make on the earth.
29) As Isaiah said before: Except the Lord of Sabbath had left us a seed ( a very small number ), we would have been as Sodom was, and been made like Gomorrah was...which we all know what happened to both of those cities, do we not? Raised to the ground and burned for their wickedness.
30) "What shall we as believers then say?" Paul asks. That the Gentiles, which did not follow after righteousness have attained that righteousness...the righteousness which is "of" faith.
31) But Israel, as a nation, which followed after the law of righteousness, has not attained to it.
32) Why? Because they did not seek it by faith, but instead tried to be righteous by the works of the Law. In other words, Israel did not believe God and did not seek Him outside of works, they "sought Him" by following the Law of Moses.
33) Finally, Paul tells us that it is written ( in Isaiah 28:16 and repeated by Peter in 1 Peter 2:6-8 ) by the Lord, "Behold, I lay in Zion a Stone ( Jesus Christ ) of stumbling and a rock of offense...and whosoever believes ( His people, believers ) on Him shall not be ashamed."


Your turn, Charlie.

 

[Charlie24]

" Esaias also crieth concerning Israel, Though the number of the children of Israel be as the sand of the sea, a remnant shall be saved:
28 for he will finish the work, and cut it short in righteousness: because a short work will the Lord make upon the earth.
29 And as Esaias said before, Except the Lord of Sabaoth had left us a seed, we had been as Sodoma, and been made like unto Gomorrha.
30 What shall we say then? That the Gentiles, which followed not after righteousness, have attained to righteousness, even the righteousness which is of faith.
31 But Israel, which followed after the law of righteousness, hath not attained to the law of righteousness.
32 Wherefore? Because [they sought it] not by faith, but as it were by the works of the law. For they stumbled at that stumblingstone;
33 as it is written, Behold, I lay in Sion a stumblingstone and rock of offence: and whosoever believeth on him shall not be ashamed." ( Romans 9:27-33 ).

27) Here Paul refers to Isaiah prophesying against Israel, and tells us that although the number of the children of Israel ( Jacob's physical lineage ) is as the sand of the sea ( a very great number ), only a remnant of them ( a very small number, relatively ) will be saved.
28) Because God will finish His work and cut it short in righteousness, and because a short work ( from our poinnt of view ) will the Lord make on the earth.
29) As Isaiah said before: Except the Lord of Sabbath had left us a seed ( a very small number ), we would have been as Sodom was, and been made like Gomorrah wass...which we all know what happened to both of those cities, do we not? Raised to the ground and burned for their wickedness.
30) "What shall we as believers then say?" Paul asks. That the Gentiles, which did not follow after righteousness have attained that righteousness...the righteousness which is "of" faith.
31) But Israel, as a nation, which followed after the law of righteousness, has not attained to it.
32) Why? Because they did not seek it by faith, but instead tried to be righteous by the works of the Law. In other words, Israel did not believe God and did not seek Him outside of works, they "sought Him" by following the Law of Moses.
33) Finally, Paul tells us that it is written ( in Isaiah 28:16 and repeated by Peter in 1 Peter 2:6-8 ) by the Lord, "Behold, I lay in Zion a Stone ( Jesus Christ ) of stumbling and a rock of offense...and whosoever believes ( His people, believers ) on Him shall not be ashamed."

Your turn, Charlie.

Post #13

 

[Dave G]

OK, Dave G, let's get it right!

Charlie, with respect:
I see what I see when I read it for myself, the same as you do.

You have no authority to tell me to "get it right".

This whole chapter is on Israel's unbelief in Christ.

Not the whole chapter.
Please read it again.

To me, the whole chapter is not only about Israel's unbelief, which is spoken of, but about who is, and who is not, a child of God and why.
After all, that subject is specifically mentioned.

 

[Dave G]

Israel believed they were saved by being a descendant of Abraham through circumcision.

Paul says no! You are of the seed of Abraham by faith in Christ.

That was a very precious few.

I agree.
But according to the passage, why are they very few?

The answer is right there.

 

[Dave G]

Dave G, the seed that would come through Abraham, Isaac and Jacob was Christ.

Without faith in Christ they are not the children of God, they were not exercising the faith of Abraham.

While I agree with the above, there is another "seed" I think you're not seeing.
Something defined in the phrase, "children of promise" in Galatians 4, Charlie., which is also mentioned in Romans 9.

Post #13

Doesn't tell me what I need to know, Charlie...I'm sorry.
In my opinion, it should be evident from other parts of the Bible, who the "children of the promise" ( who are counted for the seed ) are.

Again, please see Galatians 4.
It speaks of who believers in Christ Jesus really are...
"The children of promise."


By the way, I have to get up early tomorrow for work.
I look forward to reading your line by line understanding of the passage tomorrow.

Have a good evening.

 

[Charlie24]

I agree.
But according to the passage, why are they very few?

The answer is right there.

Rom. 11:25

"For I would not, brethren, that ye should be ignorant of this mystery, lest ye should be wise in your own conceits; that blindness in part is happened to Israel, until the fulness of the Gentiles be come in."