Romans 9

[12strings]

Only when we Baptists reach a mutual understanding of scripture will we have the sort of unity that results in effect ministry for Christ.

We do not have to have exact agreement on every point of scripture to have unity and effective ministry for Christ.

No intellectually honest person can claim the Bible teaches unconditional individual election before creation. So Calvinism simply adds and assumes things, disregarding the requirement of scripture to stick with what it says.

Eph. 1:4 - even as he chose us in him before the foundation of the world, that we should be holy and blameless before him. In love 5 he predestined us for adoption as sons...

How is it "intellectually dishonest" to read these verses and draw from them that God chose me before the foundation of the world to be adopted by him?

I'm not saying there aren't other ways to explain this passage, but It is not a violation of common sense to read that verse and think, "It sounds like God chose me to be saved before I was ever born."

 

[quantumfaith]

We do not have to have exact agreement on every point of scripture to have unity and effective ministry for Christ.



Eph. 1:4 - even as he chose us in him before the foundation of the world, that we should be holy and blameless before him. In love 5 he predestined us for adoption as sons...

How is it "intellectually dishonest" to read these verses and draw from them that God chose me before the foundation of the world to be adopted by him?

I'm not saying there aren't other ways to explain this passage, but It is not a violation of common sense to read that verse and think, "It sounds like God chose me to be saved before I was ever born."

12 strings, I appreciate the "humbleness of spirit" in your postings. I am not a pastor, but I do not think pastors should "whistle past the graveyard" when encountering tough and challenging passages of scripture. To me, that is the time that the pastor should call upon his role as pastor/teacher. He should then teach the major accepted viewpoints and history of such regarding these scripture. He should also be confident, but not overbearing in saying and stating clearly where he stands, and also confident to say, if it be the case, that he just does not know at this point.

 

[webdog]

Dammed if you do and dammed if you don't.

Don't address at all and get dammed.
Go Luke's route and get dammed all who disagree.
Go Robert's route and get dammed by all who disagree.
Go the true scholars route and present both sides and get dammed by all who disagree.

So all you wise ones, what is LifeWay supposed to do? No matter what they do a bunch of folks are going to get mad. In a way, I don't blame them skipping over such a contentious issue.

They should present the different ways it has been interpreted through history in the same way a pastor should do when discussing it with the church.

 

[Aaron]

So all you wise ones, what is LifeWay supposed to do?

Take a stand one way or the other. That is what they are supposed to do. Be hot or cold, but never lukewarm.

 

[quantumfaith]

Take a stand one way or the other. That is what they are supposed to do. Be hot or cold, but never lukewarm.

Teaching the different ways that a particular (mainstream) ways that such a scripture has been interpreted throughout the history of Christianity in no way suggests that a person is lukewarm. It is an intelligent, mature and WISE way to handle things. When you share your conviction on the matter, then it is most appropriate to "critique" the other ideas and explain why you come down the way you do.

 

[Van]

Eph. 1:4 - even as he chose us in him before the foundation of the world, that we should be holy and blameless before him. In love 5 he predestined us for adoption as sons...

How is it "intellectually dishonest" to read these verses and draw from them that God chose me before the foundation of the world to be adopted by him?

1) What does the statement "in Him" mean. If it said, He chose us before the foundation of the world, then it would be intellectually honest to believe he chose us individually. But that is not what it says. Therefore "He chosen us in Him" should be understood to be ambiguous, where it is not clear whether the election was corporate or individual.

2) How could God choose us individually when, before creation, only God existed. Here you must say God knew the future before He created the future. And that is intellectual dishonesty. It is inventing a solution from silence in scripture, to get around the fact that the understanding does not fit with the straightforward reading of the text. When one view is simple and does not create paradoxes, and another requires invention upon invention, stick with the simple.

3) How could God choose us before creation by the sanctifying work of the Spirit if we did not exist to be set apart? Honesty requires that we must exist to be set apart. 1 Peter 1:1-2 So God chose Christ as Redeemer and corporately chose us in Him. Then during our lifetime, He chooses us individually as described in many verses.

4) How could we be chosen for salvation through faith in the truth if we were chosen before we had faith? Honesty requires that we must have faith for God to choose us through it. 2 Thessalonians 2:13

5) How could we once be not a people and then be chosen to be a people, if we were chosen before creation? Honesty requires that we have lived before we were chosen as child of wrath. 1 Peter 2:9-10

6) How could God choose the poor in the eyes of the world before the foundation of the world? Honest requires that we were alive and others had opinions about us before we were chosen. James 2:5

We know that Christ was known before the foundation of the world as the Lamb of God. Therefore God chose Him as Redeemer before the foundation of the world. 1 Peter 1:20. Now when you choose a Redeemer, you are also choosing corporately all those the Redeemer will redeem. Hence He chose us in Him before the foundation of the world. This view does not create any paradoxes, no argument from silence is necessary to make it fit, it simply fits with ALL scripture.

 

[JesusFan]

Eph. 1:4 - even as he chose us in him before the foundation of the world, that we should be holy and blameless before him. In love 5 he predestined us for adoption as sons...

How is it "intellectually dishonest" to read these verses and draw from them that God chose me before the foundation of the world to be adopted by him?

1) What does the statement "in Him" mean. If it said, He chose us before the foundation of the world, then it would be intellectually honest to believe he chose us individually. But that is not what it says. Therefore "He chosen us in Him" should be understood to be ambiguous, where it is not clear whether the election was corporate or individual.

God actively knew us/chose us, wording is that He directly selected a smaller group out from the midst of a larger one, to "know" in a personal/covental fashion.

paul main emphasis here is that God selected us in a personal fashion, knew us in a way that meant He briought/determined this relationship to come to pass!

2) How could God choose us individually when, before creation, only God existed. Here you must say God knew the future before He created the future. And that is intellectual dishonesty. It is inventing a solution from silence in scripture, to get around the fact that the understanding does not fit with the straightforward reading of the text. When one view is simple and does not create paradoxes, and another requires invention upon invention, stick with the simple.

jesus was the lamb of God slain from before the Foundation of the World also!
In fact, God had established and foreordained that jesus would die as the saviour/Messiah before there was even a mankinfd to redeem!

IF all things are forever already in the mind of God, it is as good as already done, as it will be done , eihter through Him directly causing it, ot allowing it to come to pass!

3) How could God choose us by the sanctifying work of the Spirit if we did not exist to be set apart? Honesty requires that we must exist to be set apart. 1 Peter 1:1-2

Again, God knows all things that can possible be known, He never had to know anything new to Him, as He has already seen everything that will happen, as He exists outside time, it was created by Him, and God knows the first moment of time and he knows the last moment of it, when he will usher in the Eternal State!

4) How could we be chosen for salvation through faith in the truth if we were chosen before we had faith? Honesty requires that we must have faith for God to choose us through it. 2 Thessalonians 2:13

Its because our election/calling to receive jesus and get saved is based upon God knowing that he chose us based upon Himself, NOT our faith that we would place in Christ! He knew that we would get saved, as it was based upon Him doing it!

5) How could we once be not a people and then be chosen to be a people, if we were chosen before creation? Honesty requires that we have lived before we were chosen as child of wrath. 1 Peter 2:9-10

You have to stop thinking in linear time, as God knows all things before we even know and experience it, as we are time bound, He is not!

6) How could God choose the poor in the eyes of the world before the foundation of the world? Honest requires that we were alive and others had opinions about us before we were chosen. James 2:5

We know that Christ was known before the foundation of the world as the Lamb of God. Therefore God chose Him as Redeemer before the foundation of the world. 1 Peter 1:20. Now when you choose a Redeemer, you are also choosing corporately all those the Redeemer will redeem. Hence He chose us in Him before the foundation of the world. This view does not create any paradoxes, no argument from silence is necessary to make it fit, it simply fits with ALL scripture.[/QUOTE]

The Son of God was "chosen" to be our Messiah from Eternity, so no moment of time did God suddenly "now" pick him, as he was always to be sent to earth!

God forever knew just WHOM He would get saved, Jesus ALWAYS was to be the messiah, God is not a man, to be restricted by time and space as we now are!

 

[Tom Butler]

Two things to consider: God's omniscience and His immutability.

God does not change. Therefore, what he knows today, he has always known. Whom he knows today he has always known. Whom he elects, he has always elected. There was never a time when the elect were not the elect.

Although my salvation took place in time, in the mind of God it was an accomplished fact from eternity. For it to be otherwise would mean God changed at some point.

So, Tom, when was that point in eternity when God chose you? Sorry, that's beyond my pay grade.

 

[12strings]

2) How could God choose us individually when, before creation, only God existed. Here you must say God knew the future before He created the future. And that is intellectual dishonesty. It is inventing a solution from silence in scripture, to get around the fact that the understanding does not fit with the straightforward reading of the text. When one view is simple and does not create paradoxes, and another requires invention upon invention, stick with the simple.

I am absolutely saying God knew the future before he created the future!

Isaiah 46:9 - I am God, and there is none like me, declaring the end from the beginning and from ancient times things not yet done.

1 John 3:19-20 - By this we shall know that we are of the truth and reassure our heart before him; for whenever our heart condemns us, God is greater than our heart, and he knows everything.

4) How could we be chosen for salvation through faith in the truth if we were chosen before we had faith? Honesty requires that we must have faith for God to choose us through it. 2 Thessalonians 2:13

A calvinist believes that we are saved by grace "through faith." 2 Thess. 2:13 could simply be God telling us HOW he determined to accomplish his purpose of saving those he chose.

That's all I have time for right now...the rest of these have been argued elsewhere...

 

[Van]

Eph. 1:4 - even as he chose us in him before the foundation of the world, that we should be holy and blameless before him. In love 5 he predestined us for adoption as sons...

How is it "intellectually dishonest" to read these verses and draw from them that God chose me before the foundation of the world to be adopted by him?

1) What does the statement "in Him" mean. If it said, He chose us before the foundation of the world, then it would be intellectually honest to believe he chose us individually. But that is not what it says. Therefore "He chosen us in Him" should be understood to be ambiguous, where it is not clear whether the election was corporate or individual.

Jesusfan attempted to respond to this with the following:

God actively knew us/chose us, wording is that He directly selected a smaller group out from the midst of a larger one, to "know" in a personal/covental fashion.

Ephesians 1:4 says He chose us in Him. It does not say or not say whether He chose us out of a larger group. That assertion is pure twaddle. And it does not say He chose us in Him to know us. So yet another fictional addition to the text. The actual purpose of God's redemption plan was that we would be holy and blameless before him. And that is reinforced in the next verse when God predestined us (those redeemed by Christ) for adoption.

Next we have this assertion:

paul main emphasis here is that God selected us in a personal fashion, knew us in a way that meant He briought/determined this relationship to come to pass!

The actual main emphasis is Paul recounting the blessings God has bestowed upon those in Christ. The claims of Calvinism are not found in the text, they are pure fiction.

Next Jesusfan demonstrates his inability to understand Revelation 13:8 and 17:8 to be saying similar things. He posts as if I had not provided the scripture reference to support that Christ was known as the lamb of God before the foundation of the world.

Next he sidesteps the issue of how did the Spirit set us apart before we were created. Notice it is God who chose us, which if this was purely a mental process, would set us apart in God's mind, but then that does not work because the Holy Spirit does the work of setting us apart. Talk about incomprehensible absurditites.

Next Jesusfan directly claims 2 Thessalonians 2:13 does not say we were chosen for salvation from the beginning through sanctification by the Spirit and faith in the truth. How can we discuss scripture when those that hold bogus views simply say, well it does not mean what it says.

 

[Iconoclast]

That's what they said in Proverbs 1, too.

It never pans out well for those who reject wisdom.

You are correct ,sir:thumbs::wavey::laugh::applause:

 

[Van]

Hi 12 Strings, you can say you believe God knows the future exhaustively, but you cannot support that view scripturally. The verse you cited does not read, God knows the end from the beginning. It says God declared the end from the beginning. What God says will happen in the future, He causes to happen, He brings it about. He does not look into some divine crystal ball and speak about a future that exists on the other side of time. That is pagan philosphy, not biblical truth. Why do His prophecies come to be? Because He knew an "existent future" no, but rather because He fulfilled His prophecy, He brought about, cause to happen what He declared would happen, hence He declares the end from the beginning.

Next, we have several verses that read, God knows all things. However, we can add, God knows all things about what. In the verse you referenced, the idea is God knows everything hidden in our heart, whatever it is by which our heart condemns us, and God is greater than our heart, so God overrules the condemnation of our heart, we have been forgiven and if God is for us, and He is greater than all, we should not worry about the past sins our heart brings to mind to condemn us.

How could Jesus know all things, John 21:17, if He did not know when He would return? Obviously Peter was says Jesus you know all things about me, or all things about those you interact with. But to take this statement out of context and use it to support Calvinism is bogus.

 

[Iconoclast]

"Evils of calvinism"??? To bad Jonathan Edwards, George Whitefield, Charles Spurgeon, and John MacAurther are so evil, othewise they might have done some good...

12strings......meet robert snow:laugh::laugh::laugh::laugh:

 

[Berean]

The question was; is the SBC sticking its head in the sand?

 

[12strings]

The verse you cited does not read, God knows the end from the beginning. It says God declared the end from the beginning. What God says will happen in the future, He causes to happen, He brings it about. He does not look into some divine crystal ball and speak about a future that exists on the other side of time. That is pagan philosphy, not biblical truth. Why do His prophecies come to be? Because He knew an "existent future" no, but rather because He fulfilled His prophecy, He brought about, cause to happen what He declared would happen, hence He declares the end from the beginning.

1. Either way, even in the way you explain it, you have God planning things that affect the future of the world before they happen. I would agree that God is able to declare the future because he has determined what future to bring about, and then actually does bring it about. I'm not sure I see the difference. Either way, God knows the future before it happens because he brings the future to pass.

2. The issue of Jesus not knowing the time of his return is a separate issue that can be explained several ways, none of which take away from the knowledge of the Father.

 

[Iconoclast]

The question was; is the SBC sticking its head in the sand?

The fear of man bringeth a snare......They affirm the teaching and lose those who will not submit to the truth. Hide like an ostritch and appear to be very loving ....

 

[12strings]

The question was; is the SBC sticking its head in the sand?

Lifeway (which is likely acting on the direction of its own leadership rather than on some order passed down from SBC executives) has apparently chosen to simply not address controversial issues like predestination, at least not in those resources that are the most widely used by thousands of church members, which might incite local church arguments. So are they sticking their head in the sand. Maybe. I think they may have simply decided that they don't want to be the ones propogating the debate, but rather let others do it.

 

[12strings]

Also, Van,

If as you say, God does not see a future as some timeline he has no control over, but rather CAUSES his desired future to come about. That sounds more Calvinistic than you might want it to.

 

[JesusFan]

Eph. 1:4 - even as he chose us in him before the foundation of the world, that we should be holy and blameless before him. In love 5 he predestined us for adoption as sons...

How is it "intellectually dishonest" to read these verses and draw from them that God chose me before the foundation of the world to be adopted by him?

1) What does the statement "in Him" mean. If it said, He chose us before the foundation of the world, then it would be intellectually honest to believe he chose us individually. But that is not what it says. Therefore "He chosen us in Him" should be understood to be ambiguous, where it is not clear whether the election was corporate or individual.

Jesusfan attempted to respond to this with the following:

God actively knew us/chose us, wording is that He directly selected a smaller group out from the midst of a larger one, to "know" in a personal/covental fashion.

Ephesians 1:4 says He chose us in Him. It does not say or not say whether He chose us out of a larger group. That assertion is pure twaddle. And it does not say He chose us in Him to know us. So yet another fictional addition to the text. The actual purpose of God's redemption plan was that we would be holy and blameless before him. And that is reinforced in the next verse when God predestined us (those redeemed by Christ) for adoption.

Actually, the Greek makes it pretty explicit i this passage that GOd is the agent causing the choosing into Christ, its an act of Him to chose us based upon Him "knowing" us intimate way, as He is causing our seletion to happen!

Next we have this assertion:

paul main emphasis here is that God selected us in a personal fashion, knew us in a way that meant He briought/determined this relationship to come to pass!

The actual main emphasis is Paul recounting the blessings God has bestowed upon those in Christ. The claims of Calvinism are not found in the text, they are pure fiction.

Except that it is given to us int the original text!

Next Jesusfan demonstrates his inability to understand Revelation 13:8 and 17:8 to be saying similar things. He posts as if I had not provided the scripture reference to support that Christ was known as the lamb of God before the foundation of the world.

IF God always "knew" That Jesus would come to earth to die for the sins of HIs people, There NEVER was a time He did not know that fact, why would He NOT also know those whom would be saved before they were?

Next he sidesteps the issue of how did the Spirit set us apart before we were created. Notice it is God who chose us, which if this was purely a mental process, would set us apart in God's mind, but then that does not work because the Holy Spirit does the work of setting us apart. Talk about incomprehensible absurditites.

God the father chose all of us who are saved by Him in jesus, Jesus sent to atone for their sins, HS comes to convict and open their hearts/minds to receive Him!

Next Jesusfan directly claims 2 Thessalonians 2:13 does not say we were chosen for salvation from the beginning through sanctification by the Spirit and faith in the truth. How can we discuss scripture when those that hold bogus views simply say, well it does not mean what it says.

The Lord knows those whom are His own, and He causes them to come to salvation in Christ!

The problem that you seem to have is that you are thinking in linear timeline terms, while God lnows all things all times, nothing that H has to find out for the first time!

Also, by failing to see just how the fall affecting us so badly, you cannot see that any of us getting saved has to be done By God coming to us, us NOT coming to Him!