Romans 9

[Skandelon]

The question is normally asked, "Is this corporate or individual?" Some insist this must be corporate only. I insist it is both. There are individual and corporate elements here. You cannot, for instance, have a corporate unless there is the individual (Jacob and Esau is the prime example).

Those who wish for only a corporate rendering miss the obvious, that the Bible uses the individual to demonstrate the corporate.

:thumbsup: Well said. I agree totally!

Nations are made up of individuals. I just wish Calvinists would consistently carry this understanding into chapters 10 and 11 when Paul goes on to explain how the individuals in Israel who are being temporarily hardened haven't "stumbled beyond recovery" (vs. 11) and may be provoke to envy and saved (vs. 14) and may be grafted back into the vine if they leave their unbelief (vs. 23-26), thus proving that the individuals spoken of as being hardened in Romans 9 can't be the non-elect reprobates born without hope of ever being saved as Calvinism presumes...but instead is the judicially hardened Jew who God temporarily cut off from the vine (hardened in his rebellious condition) so as to accomplish the crucifixion and ingraft the Gentiles.

 

[Greektim]

In Romans 9 is Paul talking about individuals or nations?

I've been studying through Romans and find myself in chapter 9. I believe this is basically talking about God choosing one nation (Jacob) over another (Esau).

What do you think?

I think Schreiner's article is by far one of the best treatments on this issue at a basic level.

"Does Romans 9 Teach Individual Election Unto Salvation? Some Exegetical And Theological Reflections," in JETS 36:1 (Mar 1993).

 

[quantumfaith]

Found this interesting article on election and Romans 9. Does anyone know who this "group" is?

http://www.insearchoftruth.org/articles/romans_9.html#answering_calvinist

 

[Earth Wind and Fire]

Found this interesting article on election and Romans 9. Does anyone know who this "group" is?

http://www.insearchoftruth.org/articles/romans_9.html#answering_calvinist

Hey,,, what are you doing here Quantum, "Reading an Article"!!! According to some in here your supposed to only read your bible! What your doing is only a waste of time & a distraction. :laugh::laugh::laugh:

 

[ituttut]

In Romans 9 is Paul talking about individuals or nations?

I've been studying through Romans and find myself in chapter 9. I believe this is basically talking about God choosing one nation (Jacob) over another (Esau).

What do you think?

Agree you are on the right track discerner Snow, as we take notice of verse 12, which sends us back to Genesis where we see the personal relationship God had with His people. Rebekah took her question to the Lord of the twins, and it came back to her, "And the Lord said unto her, Two nations are in thy womb, and two manner of people shall be separated from thy bowels; and the one people shall be stronger than the other people; and the elder shall serve the younger ".

As you know many passages in the Bible are difficult for us to understand, and I believe even more so as we begin moving through acts, then into the Epistles of Paul. It must have really been difficult for those who had been with Jesus to understand the changes that were taking place, but in time accepted their roll in the plan of God, and that of Paul, and his gospel to the Gentile. One reason Peter, and the other Apostles and others in Jerusalem, also synagogues, found it difficult (in the first years) is to understand Paul is commissioned to go to both Jew and Gentile, and they were not. In Acts 15 and Galatians 2 we see Paul and Barnabas had the backing of the Saints in Jerusalem to listen to Paul and Barnabas as they gave the message for the Gentile, for it did not include what was necessary for the children of Israel to do. By the time Peter wrote his books, sometime after Paul's epistles, Peter warns to take care and come to understand what Paul says.

We see they all shook hands that those of the Temple worship in Jerusalem were not to preach to a Gentile what was necessary for those of the circumcision gospel. So as we read the Bible, and then come to Saul/Paul, we should do some extra diligence in deciding what Paul is saying, trying to determine his meanings, as His is a mixed audience, until it becomes more clear after He reaches Rome. The gospel to the Gentile becomes the main message as the Old is fast fading way. And as we know today God has caste away His people, and all are now seen to be Gentiles, being saved by the Grace of God, through faith, and it has none of the works of the law, or ordinances found in His gift to us.

But we know God will not forget His people, for He will make a new covenant with them, shortly after our meeting Him in the air.