Romans Chapter 7

[Matt Black]

Claudia, your posts sound like you're espousing something similar to Catholic soteriology

 

[Claudia_T]

Mike,

Oh Im sorry, all this time I thought you thought that those who think we should keep the law were legalists.

I had no idea that you believed in not sinning (transgressing the law)..

I am very sorry if I have misunderstood you all this time. I didnt know you didnt believe in sinning

dont know what the big disagreement is all about then.


you either think the law is still in effect or you dont. I didnt realize you think it is still in effect, which if thats the case then I have no idea why you have kept on calling me a legalist.

 

[Claudia_T]

Matt,

that sounds like a disease.

You could tell me which statement I made that is wrong...precisely that makes you give that diagnosis

 

[Matt Black]

Salvation by faith + works; eg:

Originally posted by Claudia_T:
When I first became a Christian I thought that all you had to do was "believe". But then I quickly noticed all the many Bible verses about keeping the commandments and I couldnt in good conscience ignore them.

and

Originally posted by Claudia_T:I dont know how anybody could read this passage and come away with the idea that it is now ok to sin (transgress the law). The whole idea is that we are supposed to DIE TO SIN... and awake to righteousness. "Let not sin therefore reign in your mortal body, that ye should obey it in the lusts thereof."

Like my mother used to say, "Do you want me to draw you a picture?"


Romans 6:
6: Knowing this, that our old man is crucified with him, that the body of sin might be destroyed, that henceforth we should not serve sin.
7: For he that is dead is freed from sin.
8: Now if we be dead with Christ, we believe that we shall also live with him:
9: Knowing that Christ being raised from the dead dieth no more; death hath no more dominion over him.
10: For in that he died, he died unto sin once: but in that he liveth, he liveth unto God.
11: Likewise reckon ye also yourselves to be dead indeed unto sin, but alive unto God through Jesus Christ our Lord.
12: Let not sin therefore reign in your mortal body, that ye should obey it in the lusts thereof.
13: Neither yield ye your members as instruments of unrighteousness unto sin: but yield yourselves unto God, as those that are alive from the dead, and your members as instruments of righteousness unto God.
14: For sin shall not have dominion over you: for ye are not under the law, but under grace.

15: What then? shall we sin, because we are not under the law, but under grace? God forbid.
16: Know ye not, that to whom ye yield yourselves servants to obey, his servants ye are to whom ye obey; whether of sin unto death, or of obedience unto righteousness?


Can anybody repeat those last two verses outloud in their homes right now and come away thinking God is telling them it is ok to break the law now and return to sin?

did you notice it says "whether of SIN UNTO DEATH"?

In other words if we are going to choose to go back to our sins we are abiding in DEATH not eternal life.

Romans 6:14: For sin shall not have dominion over you : for ye are not under the law, but under grace.

did you get that? because you are not under the law, that does NOT mean we can sin (sin is the trangression of the law)

 

[Claudia_T]

well Matt


in light of the scores and score of Bible verses that say we must keep the commandments, Im sorry but I just cant help thinking that we need to.

And in addition to that, I have never nor will ever base my salvation on works.

I believe in true genuine faith that works out from the motive of love to God and my neighbor.

I also believe that any faith that does not produce works is a sham.

Jms:2:14: What doth it profit, my brethren, though a man say he hath faith, and have not works? can faith save him?

1Jn:2:4: He that saith, I know him, and keepeth not his commandments, is a liar, and the truth is not in him.


1Jn:3:15: Whosoever hateth his brother is a murderer: and ye know that no murderer hath eternal life abiding in him.

There are a huge amount of Bible verses just like this and I for one am not willing to turn a blind eye to them.

 

[Claudia_T]

well what can I say?

**walking away... shaking my head in wonderment**

 

[Matt Black]

I'm not criticising you, Claudia, I just find it odd that someone who's SDA subscribes to something that sounds very much on all-fours with Catholic soteriology, that's all.

 

[Brother Bob]

The Catholics probably have some things right.

 

[SpiritualMadMan]

Not bad sarcasm Claudia...

According to the definition of a legalist...

Here excerpted from the American Heritage Dictionary:
le·gal·ism n. 1. Strict, literal adherence to the law or to a particular code, as of religion or morality. 2. A legal word, expression, or rule. --le“gal·ist n. --le”gal·is“tic adj. --le”gal·is“ti·cal·ly adv.

It sure sounded like you were advocating strict compliance to the Law, to me at least...

And, by definition, that would make those that do advocate a strict adherence to the Law, a Legalist...

Now if you are not advocating a strict compliance with the Law please say so...

But, then the expectation that one who does not advocate strict compliance to the law is then advocating committing sin...

Hmmm Is there no middle ground?

Can one who promotes Grace as superceeding the Law actually _not_ be advocating sin?

See if you can find me a definition for what I am... And, make it stick...

SMM

 

[gekko]

oh matt black. oh my my my my my.

faith+works is not a catholic soteriology.

have you not read James?

"faith without works is dead"
in other words. if we do works, without faith, our works are in vain. if we have faith without works (whether it be physical or spiritual works) then our faith is in vain.

got this excerpt from a hip-hop song:
"put the blunt out dog put down that heineken,
'Man, God understands,' what? come again?
I guess you think God is kinda like yo mama, huh
Like He aint even trippin on your sin and in yo drama"

found at www.reachrecords.com

 

[Claudia_T]

What is soteriology?

I'm not up on all these terms.

 

[gekko]

im not either... i just used what he said... haha.

 

[Claudia_T]

maybe it is the study of soterio (they need a little icon of a smiley face with a graduation cap on)

 

[gekko]

haha... sounds like a kid trying to say "stereo"

"hey mommy! can i listen to the soterio please??"

 

[Claudia_T]

wait a minute, I really like doing root words... and I was just now thinking of a word that starts with soteri

what about esoteric?

 

[Claudia_T]

of course I dont know what esoteric means though LOL! isnt that kinda like secret writings or maybe like myterious type stuff?

unfortuneately this is the process by which us poor un-edumacated people have to try and figure out things like this.

LOL gekko yeah it does sound like a kid who cant say stereo

 

[gekko]

like the writing on the wall?

jk. i think we're way off topic now...lol

 

[Dustin]

soteriology is the study of salvation.

 

[gekko]

ah. thank you.

we need faith for salvation. no?
faith without righteous works - is dead.
without righteous works - our faith is vain.
if our faith is vain - we dont have salvation.

if its easy for us to be grafted in. how much easier is it for us to be grafted out?

 

[Claudia_T]

To Whoever would like to respond to this,


When you read this passage, what do you see?

Romans 6:
3: Know ye not, that so many of us as were baptized into Jesus Christ were baptized into his death?
4: Therefore we are buried with him by baptism into death: that like as Christ was raised up from the dead by the glory of the Father, even so we also should walk in newness of life.
5: For if we have been planted together in the likeness of his death, we shall be also in the likeness of his resurrection:
6: Knowing this, that our old man is crucified with him, that the body of sin might be destroyed, that henceforth we should not serve sin.


To me it says

1.
Romans 6:
3: Know ye not, that so many of us as were baptized into Jesus Christ were baptized into his death?

We get baptized into the death of Jesus Christ. Its like we die with Him.

This is because Jesus took our sins upon Himself and suffered the penalty.

He also lived out the Law in His life perfectly.


2.
Romans 6:
4: Therefore we are buried with him by baptism into death: that like as Christ was raised up from the dead by the glory of the Father, even so we also should walk in newness of life.


When we die with Jesus, we must then begin to walk in newness of life. We are reborn, a totally new creature. We leave behind our former life.


3.
Romans:
5: For if we have been planted together in the likeness of his death, we shall be also in the likeness of his resurrection:

6: Knowing this, that our old man is crucified with him, that the body of sin might be destroyed, that henceforth we should not serve sin.


Jesus took upon Himelf our sins and pays the penalty and dies for us... we are crucified with Him and die, our old self going to the grave..

then we are resurrected WITH Him, becoming a totally changed person when we arise.

"Knowing this, that our old man is crucified with him, that the body of sin might be destroyed, that henceforth we should not serve sin."

This old person is supposed to now be what?
D E A D, NO LONGER SERVING SIN... right???

sin is what? transgression of the law.

so what does this new person do then?

what is there besides either sin or not sin?

we would have to keep the law now... right?


and remember that Paul said "I die daily"


Claudia