-
Welcome to Baptist Board, a friendly forum to discuss the Baptist Faith in a friendly surrounding.
Your voice is missing! You will need to register to get access to all the features that our community has to offer.
We hope to see you as a part of our community soon and God Bless!
Romans Chapter 7
- Thread starter SpiritualMadMan
- Start date
SpiritualMadMan
New Member
But, gekko, what do we do with this scripture
Ephesians 2:8 For by grace are ye saved through faith; and that not of yourselves: it is the gift of God:
Ephesians 2:9 Not of works, lest any man should boast.
Christian Conduct *after* becoming a New Creation isn't a "Salvation" issue unless you are Armenian in doctrinal stance...
If Jesus is both the Author and Finisher of of Our Faith
Hebrews 12:2 Looking unto Jesus the author and finisher of our faith; who for the joy that was set before him endured the cross, despising the shame, and is set down at the right hand of the throne of God.
It is obvious to me that, in this case, that the context shows the Jesus is the Author and Finisher of our Salvation...
James is talking about Good Works that should accompany a saved person...
Not works to get saved or stay saved...
Romans 9:31 But Israel, which followed after the law of righteousness, hath not attained to the law of righteousness.
Romans 9:32 Wherefore? Because they sought it not by faith, but as it were by the works of the law. For they stumbled at that stumblingstone;
Galatians 2:16 Knowing that a man is not justified by the works of the law, but by the faith of Jesus Christ, even we have believed in Jesus Christ, that we might be justified by the faith of Christ, and not by the works of the law: for by the works of the law shall no flesh be justified.
Galatians 3:2 This only would I learn of you, Received ye the Spirit by the works of the law, or by the hearing of faith?
We get the Spirit by Faith, too... Not by works of the Law...
It would appear that Paul and James probably went round and round a bit just like us?
Romans 4:5 But to him that worketh not, but believeth on him that justifieth the ungodly, his faith is counted for righteousness.
It would appear that both vantage points have solid Scriptural Support...
Could it be that the absolutist and extreme views both sides have been espousing are simply that? extreme.
And, that in making our cases we have gone past the intent of that which is written?
I came out of a very legalistic view. Where one slip and you were headed for hell itself...
Surely we don't want to live in that bondage anymore? I know I don't...
Yet at the same time as Paul says we don't want to use Grace as a license to sin...
Romans 6:1 What shall we say then? Shall we continue in sin, that grace may abound?
Romans 6:2 God forbid. How shall we, that are dead to sin, live any longer therein?
To which I concur with a hearty Amen!
Yet, if we fail to adhere to Ephesians to 8-9 in our presentations we risk leaving people with the impression that they have to clean up their act before they can get saved...
A task which no human has the strength in themselves to begin much less complete...
And, possibly also leave people with the impression that *they* had something to do with their salvation...
I've seen people who have basically had the attitude that God owed them salvation because of all the 'works' they had done...
SMM
Brother Bob
New Member
My veiw is simple. Stop sinning!!!!!!
SpiritualMadMan
New Member
Yes, Bob, I agree we must stop sinning...
But, here we return to the problem of who decides what is sin and what is not sin...
We can say the Word of God, and there are many irrefutable and non-debatable passages on what will not enter the Kingdom of Heaven...
Which everyone of us will agree on, I'm pretty sure...
But, as soon as we stop adhereing to...
Galatians 5:16 This I say then, Walk in the Spirit, and ye shall not fulfil the lust of the flesh.
And, start looking to a list of 'laws' we get into a place where any individual's interpretation of God's Word becomes Law...
A person who thinks Hymns are dead will tell me I'm sinning by attending a church that sings only Hymns because it's a dead church...
Conversely, and this has actually happened to me, and a Christian radio station I engineered at, I have been told pointedly and bluntly that I was going to hell because I listened to CCM Rock Music!
Not even an invitation to change, I was judged, signed, sealed and deleivered to satan himself...
This is why the Law of Love is a better Law...
And, why the New Covenant in Christ's Blood and officiated by His Spirit is so superior to the Old Covenant.
SMM
But, here we return to the problem of who decides what is sin and what is not sin...
We can say the Word of God, and there are many irrefutable and non-debatable passages on what will not enter the Kingdom of Heaven...
Which everyone of us will agree on, I'm pretty sure...
But, as soon as we stop adhereing to...
Galatians 5:16 This I say then, Walk in the Spirit, and ye shall not fulfil the lust of the flesh.
And, start looking to a list of 'laws' we get into a place where any individual's interpretation of God's Word becomes Law...
A person who thinks Hymns are dead will tell me I'm sinning by attending a church that sings only Hymns because it's a dead church...
Conversely, and this has actually happened to me, and a Christian radio station I engineered at, I have been told pointedly and bluntly that I was going to hell because I listened to CCM Rock Music!
Not even an invitation to change, I was judged, signed, sealed and deleivered to satan himself...
This is why the Law of Love is a better Law...
And, why the New Covenant in Christ's Blood and officiated by His Spirit is so superior to the Old Covenant.
SMM
So, Claudia, are you saying it's possible to lose your salvation if you sin after conversion? If so, what sort of sins or how many would be necessary for that to happen?
SpiritualMadMan
New Member
OK,
But, who decides how they apply and how to interpret them?
The inclination is, is that because "Love" is such a nebulous commodity, to fall back to the Written Code instead of relying on the Walk in the Spirit by Faith...
SMM
Yes you can lose your salvation after conversion.
2 Peter
20: For if after they have escaped the pollutions of the world through the knowledge of the Lord and Saviour Jesus Christ, they are again entangled therein, and overcome, the latter end is worse with them than the beginning.
21: For it had been better for them not to have known the way of righteousness, than, after they have known it, to turn from the holy commandment delivered unto them.
22: But it is happened unto them according to the true proverb, The dog is turned to his own vomit again; and the sow that was washed to her wallowing in the mire.
Hebrews 6:
4: For it is impossible for those who were once enlightened, and have tasted of the heavenly gift, and were made partakers of the Holy Ghost,
5: And have tasted the good word of God, and the powers of the world to come,
6: If they shall fall away, to renew them again unto repentance; seeing they crucify to themselves the Son of God afresh, and put him to an open shame.
Claudia
Mike.
Jesus did just fine deciding how to interpret the 10 commandments and do the underlying code of love.
Go read my opening statement on the new thread I created about "Did Jesus break the Sabbath?" (cant remember exactly what I called it)
anyway He managed to know how to interpret the Sabbath within the context of love.
Truth is the law was ALWAYS supposed to be in the context of love, but the rabbis perverted it.
"Hear, O Israel: The Lord our God is one Lord: and thou shalt love the Lord thy God with all thine heart, and with all thy soul, and with all thy might." Deuteronomy 6:4,5.
"Thou shalt love thy neighbor as thyself." Leviticus 19:18.
Sound familiar? Jesus was merely quoting directly out of the old testament when He said Thou shalt love the Lord thy God with all thy heart, and with all thy soul, and with all thy mind and Thou shalt love thy neighbour as thyself.
God's claims have always been the same. Jesus did not really give us a "new" commandment to keep, He was bringing to light the foundation principles of love which have always underlined the ten commandments of old. This is why John said the following words:
"And hereby we do know that we know him, if we keep his commandments. He that saith, I know him, and keepeth not his commandments, is a liar, and the truth is not in him. Brethren, I write no new commandment unto you, but an old commandment which ye had from the beginning." I John 2:3-7. The principles of His government are the same. For all proceed from Him "with whom is no variableness, neither shadow of turning." James 1:17.
Jesus did just fine deciding how to interpret the 10 commandments and do the underlying code of love.
Go read my opening statement on the new thread I created about "Did Jesus break the Sabbath?" (cant remember exactly what I called it)
anyway He managed to know how to interpret the Sabbath within the context of love.
Truth is the law was ALWAYS supposed to be in the context of love, but the rabbis perverted it.
"Hear, O Israel: The Lord our God is one Lord: and thou shalt love the Lord thy God with all thine heart, and with all thy soul, and with all thy might." Deuteronomy 6:4,5.
"Thou shalt love thy neighbor as thyself." Leviticus 19:18.
Sound familiar? Jesus was merely quoting directly out of the old testament when He said Thou shalt love the Lord thy God with all thy heart, and with all thy soul, and with all thy mind and Thou shalt love thy neighbour as thyself.
God's claims have always been the same. Jesus did not really give us a "new" commandment to keep, He was bringing to light the foundation principles of love which have always underlined the ten commandments of old. This is why John said the following words:
"And hereby we do know that we know him, if we keep his commandments. He that saith, I know him, and keepeth not his commandments, is a liar, and the truth is not in him. Brethren, I write no new commandment unto you, but an old commandment which ye had from the beginning." I John 2:3-7. The principles of His government are the same. For all proceed from Him "with whom is no variableness, neither shadow of turning." James 1:17.
SpiritualMadMan
New Member
OK,
Those are good Armenian Scriptures that tell of dire circumstances for the believer who falls back into Sin...
And, while I will allow that they *allude* to the possibility of a person losing their salvation...
I do not see a specific reference that the dire consequences are in fact loss of salvation...
The Classical Armenian stance is that any and all infractions immediately negate salvation...
And, yet we are told that
1Jo 5:16 If any man see his brother sin a sin which is not unto death, he shall ask, and he shall give him life for them that sin not unto death. There is a sin unto death: I do not say that he shall pray for it.
1Jo 5:17 All unrighteousness is sin: and there is a sin not unto death.
That is, it is possible to commit some sins and not lose your salvation...
If this is so then it follows that committing such a heinous sin as to lose ones salvation is so unbearable that no true believer would ever do so...
In which case Hebrews would be a hyperbole, an intended exageration to make a point...
And, even tough I personally believe in the theoretical possibility of losing ones salvation...
My personal experience is that it is not easy to do so...
The Classical Armenian viewpoint completely negates the Jealous Love of God for His Children substituting a God of Wrath who looks for reasons to exclude and punish the sons of men.
I see a very different view of God.
And, that view is of a God that seeks for reasons to show mercy and not have to Judge the sons of men..
SMM
Those are good Armenian Scriptures that tell of dire circumstances for the believer who falls back into Sin...
And, while I will allow that they *allude* to the possibility of a person losing their salvation...
I do not see a specific reference that the dire consequences are in fact loss of salvation...
The Classical Armenian stance is that any and all infractions immediately negate salvation...
And, yet we are told that
1Jo 5:16 If any man see his brother sin a sin which is not unto death, he shall ask, and he shall give him life for them that sin not unto death. There is a sin unto death: I do not say that he shall pray for it.
1Jo 5:17 All unrighteousness is sin: and there is a sin not unto death.
That is, it is possible to commit some sins and not lose your salvation...
If this is so then it follows that committing such a heinous sin as to lose ones salvation is so unbearable that no true believer would ever do so...
In which case Hebrews would be a hyperbole, an intended exageration to make a point...
And, even tough I personally believe in the theoretical possibility of losing ones salvation...
My personal experience is that it is not easy to do so...
The Classical Armenian viewpoint completely negates the Jealous Love of God for His Children substituting a God of Wrath who looks for reasons to exclude and punish the sons of men.
I see a very different view of God.
And, that view is of a God that seeks for reasons to show mercy and not have to Judge the sons of men..
SMM
I dont view God at all as sitting there just wanting to find some excuse to punish people.
I have noticed that it seems like whatever view you used to have as a "legalist" --that you automatically believe that everyone else who believes in keeping the law must also have these harsh views of God which just is not true at all.
Besides the Bible of course, if you want to know my absolutely most favorite thing to read and re-read over and over again.... click here:
Lost and is Found
It is the very most prominent view of God that I have and that I keep foremost in my mind.
You ought to actually click on that and go read it, it would probably only take you 10 minutes or so to read it.
and this is my second most favorite:
The Divine Shepherd
Claudia
[ May 11, 2006, 12:41 AM: Message edited by: Claudia_T ]
I have noticed that it seems like whatever view you used to have as a "legalist" --that you automatically believe that everyone else who believes in keeping the law must also have these harsh views of God which just is not true at all.
Besides the Bible of course, if you want to know my absolutely most favorite thing to read and re-read over and over again.... click here:
Lost and is Found
It is the very most prominent view of God that I have and that I keep foremost in my mind.
You ought to actually click on that and go read it, it would probably only take you 10 minutes or so to read it.
and this is my second most favorite:
The Divine Shepherd
Claudia
[ May 11, 2006, 12:41 AM: Message edited by: Claudia_T ]
and this is my third most favorite:
This Man Receiveth Sinners
actually the second and third ones, I cant decide which of those I like best... but anyway ok Im done now, I get carried away.
anyway my view of God is not anywheres near what you seem to think it is.
Claudia
This Man Receiveth Sinners
actually the second and third ones, I cant decide which of those I like best... but anyway ok Im done now, I get carried away.
anyway my view of God is not anywheres near what you seem to think it is.
Claudia
BobRyan
Well-Known Member
#1. Good for defining Sin (see the post already given for this on Romans 7). See the reference I gave to Romans 3.
#2. Good for knowing what will judge the saints - (See the reference I already gave to James 2 -- feel free to actually respond to the point already posted on that one).
See Romans 7 post already given "SIN IN my flesh AT WAR withe law of my mind" according to Paul.
See Romans 8 "By the Spirit putting to death the deeds of teh flesh".
See the reference already given to James 2 "So live and act as those who are to be JUDGED by the Law of Liberty" - the Ten Commandments example quoted in James 2!!
Finally!
From the chapter in inspectiing "fruit" Matt 7Originally posted by Vasco:
I am not saying that there are not acceptable standards of conduct by which we can be reasonably assured of correctly inspecting "Fruit"...
"NOT everyone who SAYS Lord Lord will enter the kingdom of God but he who DOES the Will of My Father.." Matt 7.
See if any of that makes reference to going to heaven. Then see if gooing to heaven has anything to do with salvation.
It is actually pretty obvious.
The New Covenant IS the ONE Gospel of Gal 1:6-11 and IS What was preached as a far back as Abraham BEFORE MOSES Gal 3:7-8.
The ONE Gospel of the NEW covenant was the only way of salvation in the OT and STILL IS today!
Enjoy it!
In Christ,
Bob
BobRyan
Well-Known Member
What is the state of "being saved" is it "alone and without God" Is it "Paying for the full penalty due to your own sins" is it "living in an unforgiven state" is it "being denied by God Himself"??
IF so - IF that is the SAVED state - then you are right! But if that is the LOST state then your argument failed 2000 years ago!
In Christ,
Bob
SpiritualMadMan
New Member
What is the state of "being saved" is it "alone and without God" Is it "Paying for the full penalty due to your own sins" is it "living in an unforgiven state" is it "being denied by God Himself"??
IF so - IF that is the SAVED state - then you are right! But if that is the LOST state then your argument failed 2000 years ago!
In Christ,
Bob </font>[/QUOTE]You completely lost me here...
I haven't a clue as to where you're coming from or where you're going...
Sorry
SMM
SpiritualMadMan
New Member
Ref: BobRyan posted May 11, 2006 07:35 AM
BobRyan,
The scripture passages you quoted and the statements you made between them seem to indicate that you are supporting the concept that a person can lose their salvation.
Is this a correct assumption?
If so,
Is this an easy thing to do?
Or, will it require some forethought and effort to accomplish it?
SMM
BobRyan,
The scripture passages you quoted and the statements you made between them seem to indicate that you are supporting the concept that a person can lose their salvation.
Is this a correct assumption?
If so,
Is this an easy thing to do?
Or, will it require some forethought and effort to accomplish it?
SMM
Yes you can lose your salvation after conversion.
2 Peter
20: For if after they have escaped the pollutions of the world through the knowledge of the Lord and Saviour Jesus Christ, they are again entangled therein, and overcome, the latter end is worse with them than the beginning.
21: For it had been better for them not to have known the way of righteousness, than, after they have known it, to turn from the holy commandment delivered unto them.
22: But it is happened unto them according to the true proverb, The dog is turned to his own vomit again; and the sow that was washed to her wallowing in the mire.
Hebrews 6:
4: For it is impossible for those who were once enlightened, and have tasted of the heavenly gift, and were made partakers of the Holy Ghost,
5: And have tasted the good word of God, and the powers of the world to come,
6: If they shall fall away, to renew them again unto repentance; seeing they crucify to themselves the Son of God afresh, and put him to an open shame.
Claudia </font>[/QUOTE]OK, so 'what is necessary', as it were, to forfeit one's salvation? How many sins does one need to commit to do that? Or is it a certain type of sin?
In which case we may be talking quality rather than quantity here; certain types of sin as per my previous post ie: similar to the Catholic concept of venal and mortal sins(?)