Romans Chapter 7

[BobRyan]

Originally posted by SpiritualMadMan:
Ref: BobRyan posted May 11, 2006 07:35 AM

BobRyan,
The scripture passages you quoted and the statements you made between them seem to indicate that you are supporting the concept that a person can lose their salvation.

Is this a correct assumption?

Yes that is what those texts teach. That is why you never hear people who hold to "OSAS Anyway" going to those texts to make their case.

If so,

Is this an easy thing to do?

Or, will it require some forethought and effort to accomplish it?

Take the Matt 18 or the 2Tim 2 cases given above and let me know if you see "intent" and "forethought" going on there.

In Christ,

Bob

 

[SpiritualMadMan]

Matt,

I don't fully understand it...

All I know is that the NT adresses it without further comment...

(Which I find a little bit frustarting.

)

The Catholics delineated which sins were veneal and mortal...

I am not sure NT gives us that clear division...

From my Armenian background I tend to think of long term willful sin as having the greatest likelyhood of disolving the fellowship between God and Man...

Phase one would be to grieve the Holy Spirit...

That's painful enough to cause most people to run back to the Arms of Jesus...

And, I believe there would be even more 'phases' to *push* through before 'death' would ensue...

So, I do not believe that losing one's salvation is easy at all...

That is why I place it in the Theoretical Possibility Category...

Because while I see the concept in Scripture, it is so absolutetly foreign and abhorent ( to me at least) that I simply can not concieve of it.

Though the Sin of Blasphemy against the Holy Spirit comes to mind... (Speaking of Quality vs Quantity.)

SMM

 

[BobRyan]

If you prefer the Romans 11 example above - for the "forethought" explanation - go ahead and use that one instead.

 

[Matt Black]

I prefer the old English legal definition of 'malice aforethought'. For me, it would have to be:

1. In full knowledge - knowing that you were kissing your salvation goodbye.

2. A decision made freely ie: no duress, undue influence or defect of reason.

3. Conduct/ attitude of heart amounting to a repudiatory breach.

 

[BobRyan]

Which of the texts are you describing?

Take a look at Matt 7 and Matt 25 and tell me how many of those guys literally said "heaven Good BYE!"

Also look at Matt 18.

on the other hand - the 3rd definition Matt gives could fit any of them.

In Christ,

Bob

 

[SpiritualMadMan]

OK, maybe it's an after lunch brain freeze (had a "Frosty")...

But, I think I have completely lost track of what is going on...

The Romans 11 I **think** I follow as being the mitigating verses for the absoluteness of Hebrews 6:6

That is, with the exception of the sin unto death?

Not at all sure that that is what is meant, though...

As for the references to the Matt 7 and Matt 25 texts I am totally lost as to what is being pointed out there...

As for Matt's malice aforethought I would say that that captures a lot of how I see the 'Theoretical Possibility' of losing ones salvation...

SMM

 

[gekko]

matt said "So, Claudia, are you saying it's possible to lose your salvation if you sin after conversion? If so, what sort of sins or how many would be necessary for that to happen?"

the sin of rejecting Christ. that's what. and do go saying that if you reject Christ after you've accepted him then you havn't accepted him in the first place. that's junk. if you've accepted Him - that means you've accepted him. if you've rejected him - that doesnt mean you havn't accepted him - it means you've rejected him.

 

[SpiritualMadMan]

Gekko,

You may be on to something...

Hebrews 6:4 For it is impossible for those who were once enlightened, and have tasted of the heavenly gift, and were made partakers of the Holy Ghost,

? Does this mean only Pentecostals can really fall away? (Sorry... Just couldn't resist the jibe.)

Hebrews 6:5 And have tasted the good word of God, and the powers of the world to come,
Hebrews 6:6 If they shall fall away, to renew them again unto repentance; seeing they crucify to themselves the Son of God afresh, and put him to an open shame.

If they should fall away... The Greek means to apostatize...

Interesting that this is the only place in the NT where this Greek Word is used.

Not sure what it means except that it prevents us from going further with the word by using other contextual uses of it...

My point here is that falling away is not a casual or accidental event...

Hebrews 10:29 Of how much sorer punishment, suppose ye, shall he be thought worthy, who hath trodden under foot the Son of God, and hath counted the blood of the covenant, wherewith he was sanctified, an unholy thing, and hath done despite unto the Spirit of grace?

My point here is to show the attitude someone who would fall away would exhibit...

SMM

 

[Claudia_T]

Mike,

I lost track of this thread and would like to ask you something. I havent read all the stuff posted on here so if Im asking something everyone already answered, I apologize. Ive been gone alot lately.

But anyway when you talked about a "sin not unto death" ...I would really like to know what that means.

I looked up the phrase on my trusty desktop Bible thingy here and only found two different phrases like that but nothing really to explain what it means, at least not that I could see anyway.

Do you have any idea what that means?

How would you know how to identify sins that are unto death and those that arent?

'Splain it to me, please?

Claudia

 

[gekko]

SMM "My point here is to show the attitude someone who would fall away would exhibit..."

i dont quite understand what you're saying here- could you possibly make that a little clearer?

God bless

 

[Claudia_T]

Matt,

I read a couple of your posts to me, Im sorry, Ive been away some lately.

But anyway honestly I dont know what would be the sins you would have to commit to lose your salvation.

Ive always seen it like this...

Today if I have not hardened my heart towards God, then I am right with God. Today if I am surrendered to God then I am right with God.

I havent ever thought of it in terms of individual sins.

Just in terms of my willingness today to give myself to God.

Thats why the Bible says "Today if you hear His voice, harden not your heart."

Thats why Paul said "I die daily".

I think I view individual sins as the "symptom" of an illness, if you know what I mean? The illness being separation from God. Of course though sin can separate you from God too though.

Actually, if we were to take a really close look at Eve in the Garden of Eden and Adam and what process they went to to separate from God, that would be helpful. Did they sin and their sin separated them from God or did they separate from God by distrusting God and then they sinned?

Actually the reason Im thinking about this is that there is a huge debate I guess you'd call it, in our church concerning the idea of "Having a relationship with God".

On the one hand you have the one side that thinks if you sin this separates you from God, but on the other hand you have the other side that thinks it is the separation from God that cause sin. Youd be surprised at the huge difference in the outcome of both those trains of though.

One group thinks if you just cultivate your relationship with Jesus then you dont have to worry about sin... it sort of takes care of itself. But then they tend to kind of look lightly upon sin because of it.


Claudia

 

[BobRyan]

Originally posted by SpiritualMadMan:
OK, maybe it's an after lunch brain freeze (had a "Frosty")...

But, I think I have completely lost track of what is going on...

The Romans 11 I **think** I follow as being the mitigating verses for the absoluteness of Hebrews 6:6

Romans 11 shows certain Jews to have fallen out of the vine of Christ - cast out for unbelief. And the warning is "NEITHER will He spare you -- for you stank only by your faith - take heed" and then "He is able to graft THEM back in AGAIN if they do not CONTINUE in UNBELIEF".

Pretty hard stuff if you are an OSASer.

SMM
As for the references to the Matt 7 and Matt 25 texts I am totally lost as to what is being pointed out there...

Matt 7 "not everyone who SAYS Lord Lord but he who DOES the will of My Father WILL ..."

In that verse you see those who claimed salvation pointing to their lives in the church - but having fallen short on "DOING the will of the Father".

In Matt 25 we see the same thing - those who CLAIMED but did not DO as God asked them to do.

This is in reponse to that "Nothing I DO should MATTER" Post.

And these texts are pretty harsh if one is of the opinion that "nothing we DO is supposed to matter - and that IS what the Gospel is all about"

In Christ,

Bob

 

[SpiritualMadMan]

Originally posted by gekko:
SMM "My point here is to show the attitude someone who would fall away would exhibit..."

i dont quite understand what you're saying here- could you possibly make that a little clearer?

God bless

I can *try*

Hebrews 10:29 Of how much sorer punishment, suppose ye, shall he be thought worthy, who hath trodden under foot the Son of God, and hath counted the blood of the covenant, wherewith he was sanctified, an unholy thing, and hath done despite unto the Spirit of grace?

A person who kicks God out of their life would generally act very negatively towards and about God's Grace through Christ Jesus...

They would trod Jesus underfoot by language and actions...

They would count the blood of the covenant as an unclean thing...

And, would call the Holy Spirit anything but Holy...

It seemed so clear to me yesterday?

SMM

 

[Claudia_T]

Originally posted by BobRyan:



Matt 7 "not everyone who SAYS Lord Lord but he who DOES the will of My Father WILL ..."

In that verse you see those who claimed salvation pointing to their lives in the church - but having fallen short on "DOING the will of the Father".

In Matt 25 we see the same thing - those who CLAIMED but did not DO as God asked them to do.

This is in reponse to that "Nothing I DO should MATTER" Post.

And these texts are pretty harsh if one is of the opinion that "nothing we DO is supposed to matter - and that IS what the Gospel is all about"

In Christ,

Bob

Amen to that, Bob!

Mt:7:21: Not every one that saith unto me, Lord, Lord, shall enter into the kingdom of heaven; but he that doeth the will of my Father which is in heaven.

Mt:12:50: For whosoever shall do the will of my Father which is in heaven, the same is my brother, and sister, and mother.

So if "whosoever shall do the will of my Father" are the ones Jesus claims as His "family" then whose children are those who dont? They cant be children of the Father.

Also, right after Jesus had said "Not every one that saith unto me, Lord, Lord, shall enter into the kingdom of heaven; but he that doeth the will of my Father which is in heaven"... He then reiterated the same thought principle by saying:

Matthew 7:24: Therefore whosoever heareth these sayings of mine, and doeth them, I will liken him unto a wise man, which built his house upon a rock

You have to hear the sayings of Jesus and DO THEM... or else you are building your house upon the sand.

Claudia

 

[Matt Black]

Originally posted by BobRyan:
Which of the texts are you describing?

No text in particular - I think what is emerging from our discussion is that Scripture is rather vague and ambiguous on this subject. So I'm positing a theory based more on jurisprudence than on any particular Scripture, but not a theory which is in conflict with Scripture.

 

[SpiritualMadMan]

Matt,

I don't think scripture is ambiguous at all...

Galatians 5:1 Stand fast therefore in the liberty wherewith Christ hath made us free, and be not entangled again with the yoke of bondage.
Galatians 5:2 Behold, I Paul say unto you, that if ye be circumcised, Christ shall profit you nothing.
Galatians 5:3 For I testify again to every man that is circumcised, that he is a debtor to do the whole law.
Galatians 5:4 Christ is become of no effect unto you, whosoever of you are justified by the law; ye are fallen from grace.

The NIV renders it thusly...

Galatians 5:4 You who are trying to be justified by law have been alienated from Christ; you have fallen away from grace.

Seems very straight forward and clear to me...

You can not be Saved, Justified or made Righteous by the Law and by Grace at the same time...

You can not begin in Grace by the Spirit and finish using the Law as your strength...

It's either *all* Jesus and Him alone or it's all Law and Law alone...

And, the Law has been proven inadequate to Save, Justify or make anyone Righteous...

We have a pair of SDA Apologists trying to convince members of the body of Christ to abandon the Grace of God by adding 'Required Works' to Grace...

Yet Paul clearly and unambiguously taught that to do so alienates you from Christ and you fall from Grace...

Even with James' treatise on Faith without works being dead...

If what and how Paul was teaching was actually in contradiction to what the Jerusalem Council intended...

I think that the Holy Spirit would have preserved that rebuke and correction in our bibles?

Further Paul says that the Requirement to Bind ourselves with the Law was Abolished...

KJV:
Eph 2:15 Having abolished in his flesh the enmity, even the law of commandments contained in ordinances; for to make in himself of twain one new man, so making peace;

NIV:
Eph 2:15 by abolishing in his flesh the law with its commandments and regulations. His purpose was to create in himself one new man out of the two, thus making peace,

It takes a lot of circular reasoning to make the exact Greek Words mean anything else...

SMM

 

[Claudia_T]

The commandment came, sin revived; the law died, and the carnal mind lived.

Oh, did I get that wrong there?

 

[SpiritualMadMan]

Definately leaving some stuff out...

The Commandment Came
Sin was revealed
Man was hopeless
Jesus came
Law died
Man lives
Carnal Mind Crucified with Christ...
Living Scarifice Crawls off Altar...

Possibility "A"
Returns through Christ
Spirit Gives Life
Man Lives

Possibility "B"
Retuns to Law
Law Killeth
Man Dies


SMM

 

[Matt Black]

SMM, your point is granted re Galatians, but does that mean you espouse a form of antinomianism?

 

[Claudia_T]

Ellen White said that... she can be hilarious at times..."They despise the law which was the instrument that slew Paul. They cannot say with him, I die ; but they earnestly strive to live, while they cry, Death to the law!
This is virtually their testimony. The commandment came, sin revived; the law died, and the carnal mind lived. This is the order with the transgressor."
EG White, Second Advent Review and Sabbath Herald, March 8, 1870