Romans Chapter 9

Wes I do like Chuck Smith, I've met him personally, he is a lovely man. I just don't agree with some of his teaching !
Wes his idea of Unity is avoiding issues so that people won't know where they stand and will flock to their meetings. It's called trickery!! </font>[/QUOTE]No it's not! Just what is an issue? Is it not A divisor! Not letting "issues" divide is not trickery, it is wise leadership! You have fallen to the gullibility of allowing your self to take a stand on a doctrine that truly divides. It's the old "go to the back of the bus" philosophy. It's the "good ole boys" vs the rest of society Philosophy.

Neither Calvinism, nor Arminianism is correct, and neither of those PHILOSOPHIES of religion can save you. Neither has the power to do so!

 

Truth divides.

Calary Chapel doesn't use trickery, just pragmatism. Giving itching ears what they want to hear.

They should listen to Paul,

2 Timothy 4:2-3 2 Preach the word; be instant in season, out of season; reprove, rebuke, exhort with all longsuffering and doctrine. 3 For the time will come when they will not endure sound doctrine; but after their own lusts shall they heap to themselves teachers, having itching ears;


Doctrine is that important. That's why catachisms were made... But people get lazy and don't want to study... to bad.

Calvary Chapel's are a mile wide but and inch thick.

 

Wes,
I agree with you. As I have stated before, Chuck is not ambiguous at all, but clearly rejects Calvinism. But he also recognizes that it is a non-essential. And he follows the principle of "In essentials, unity, in non-essentials, liberty and in all things Charity.

And the mechanics of election are not fundamental or essential. ost churchs recognize this and word their statements of faith "vaguely."

For example, I checked out Bethlehem Baptist's member's statement and they have it worded so that an Arminian or Calvinist could subscribe to it with a good conscience and join the church.

However, they do make it clear in other documents that they teach Calvinism. And they have a seperate affirmation of faith for Elders that requires them to be Calvinists.

Interestingly, this is the first time I have ever run across a "multi-tiered" affirmation of faith process. Can anyone think of other churches that have a general, then a more rigorous, statement of faith?

 

I go to Bethlehem Baptist.

Pastor John and the leadership embrace all to come and be members. This is a TRUE affirmation of being Augustine's quote.. in non essentials liberty.

But when you are held to a higher accountability, to lead rather than follow. Doctrine is an ESSENTIAL...

Same goes for Calvary Chapel. The only reason I had to leave was because I was in a pastoral role. And would still be "thought of" as a leader even if I stepped down. So the best for the congregation was for me to leave. They allow Calvinists to be apart of the church (they don't have a formal membership) but you WILL NEVER be in a teachers position.

I think John B. that if anything most churches just have 1 plain rigorous statement they hold on to for all (teachers and members)... but Calvary's and such.. and Bethlehem have a rigorous affirmation for leaders and a more inviting affirmation to the laity.

 

Thanks for the reply RC. (BTW, I am still anxiously awaiting your views on Cornelius et al.)

So, Calvinism is not a doctrinal essential for members (believers,) but it becomes essential for leaders. Sounds somewhat arbitrary. Why is the line there? Could you cite any other church doctrines that leaders must embrace but not everyone?

 

Makes sense to me. Obviously not all members will or have to agree on calvinism But surely a church that teaches it cannot employ a teacher who will teach contrary. Its the members liberty to disagree with the doctrines of grace but surely its the teachers obligation to teach it (being a reformed church and all) The same way Chuck wouldn't employ a Pastor who would teach salvation the calvinistic way.

 

RRRRRight. That's my point. Why is CC wrong for doing the same thing Bethlehem does...(in reverse?)

They both cast a wide net for members but are more selective about leaders. Trickery, sheer trickery

 

John B,
I gave them... Cornelius? .. What about him? He was a devote man who feared God? ... What kind of sotierlogical question are you going to get from this context?

 

The difference is that Bethlehem aren't keeping silent on issues. Every memeber there calvinist or otherwise would surely know that Bethlehem teaches the doctrines of grace. Not employing non calvinistic teachers is not trickery as the congregants at least know what stand they take on the issue. In other words. They teach calvinism, but the members dont have to be calvinists. Calvary don't don't teach on those *divisive* points, and at the same time don't allow a calvinistic teacher.
Can you not see the difference?

 

Wes,

Again, CC is NOT silent. Why did Chuck write the booklet on Calvinism? Not to mention George Bryson's booklet on Calvinism.

RC,
If you addressed these points I must have missed it. Let me be more concise:

1. Were all those who cried out or sought healing from Jesus doing so out of sin? If not, they were regenerated already. Is that your view?

2. Was Nicodemous' seeking out of Christ done in sin? Or was he regenerated also? And if he was already regenerated, why did Jesus have to explain the new life?

3. Lastly, the Acts 10-11 account of Cornelius clearly indicated that he was devout and sought God prior to his regeneration. The angel clearly puts Cornelius' salvation in the future tense (10:14)

 

Rich_UK,
Do you not realize that no man of any persuasion has ever been saved while God was behaving in anything but his Grace?

Even Noah was saved because He found favor in the eyes of God. The rest of the population did not!

So what specifically would the doctrine of Grace be?

 

Wes I was calling it the doctrines of grace as my understanding of Calvinism. I don't view salvation by any other means as purely of Grace. I don't particularly like labels so I prefer to call it the doctrines of grace.

 

noah was saved from the FLOOD because he found favor- but he wasn't saved from hellfire because he found favor. No man that is spiritually dead can cause God to find favor in him as 'all our righteousnesses are as filthy rags.' Bring up noah is non sequitter really.

 

noah was saved from the FLOOD because he found favor- but he wasn't saved from hellfire because he found favor. No man that is spiritually dead can cause God to find favor in him as 'all our righteousnesses are as filthy rags.' Bring up noah is non sequitter really. </font>[/QUOTE]Noah was saved from hellfire, because HE BELIEVED GOD, and Acted in faith to build the Ark. Because Noah was a righteous man who had faith in God, God also saved His wife and sons and their wives too!

 

Getting back to the topic:

Odd. It's also the philosophy of Christ-
Mat 10:35 For I am come to set a man at variance against his father, and the daughter against her mother, and the daughter in law against her mother in law.

First of all you can't claim both are incorrect since there is no middle ground. Secondly, Calvinists don't claim Calvinism saves you- and Arminians don't claim Arminianism saves you. Both sides accept that it is 'savation by faith through grace.' I'm baffled that we can keep explaining this to you Wes and for some reason you always require it to be defined. It's not like you have to agree with us to get the facts straight- all you have to do is listen.

 

You can't even correctly quote scripture! So why should I listen to you?

 

True, but God commands us who believe in Him to unity. But since I am overwhelmingly convinced that your doctrine is wrong, and Since I am sold out to Jesus, the only conclusion I can draw it that your doctrine is not biblical!

 

But since I am overwhelmingly convinced that your doctrine is wrong, and Since I am sold out to Jesus,


Wes,
When you say doctrine, do you mean what "Calvinists" believe?

 

Isn't that what Calvinism is? Calvinism the doctrine! You know, TULIP, doctrines of grace, Regeneration before faith, regeneration without choice, etc.

 

But since I am overwhelmingly convinced that your doctrine is wrong, and Since I am sold out to Jesus,


Wes,
When you say doctrine, do you mean what "Calvinists" believe?
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Isn't that what Calvinism is? Calvinism the doctrine! You know, TULIP, doctrines of grace, Regeneration before faith, regeneration without choice, etc.
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Wes,
I'll assume that that is a yes.

I just wanted to let you know that there is no one more (maybe just as much) but absolutely not more , sold out to Jesus than Calvinists. They acknowledge His ability over their own. So if your comment was your way of saying that Calvinists are less of a Christian. Then your view of Calvinism is wrong.