The U.S "kicked" no one off their land, but pursuant to a 1922 congressional resolution , was the first to recognize the nation of Israel.
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Ron Pauls Secret Weapon
- Thread starter Salty
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The U.S "kicked" no one off their land, but pursuant to a 1922 congressional resolution , was the first to recognize the nation of Israel.
Michael Wrenn
New Member
From "America, Christianity and Zionism":
"There has always been a great deal of support both for Zionism generally and Israel in particular among Christians in America. This fact has been somewhat puzzling to Arabs in the Middle East who fail to see why any such convergence of interests and views would ever occur - because of this, there has been a tendency to believe that there is a conspiracy of Jews who control American media and American politics, thus confusing and misleading the American people (who tend to be well liked by Arabs). How else to explain American and Christian support for Israel?
In fact, no conspiracies are necessary to explain what is going on - much mundane facts about America and American Christianity do the job just fine. The first thing which needs to be understood is the long-standing self-identification of American Christians as God's chosen people - in fact, as being literally a New Israel.
The Puritans and some other early Engligh colonists regularly referred to themselves as a "new Israel," repeating the biblical story of Exodus by establishing a "City on the Hill" which would serve as a moral and religious beacon for the rest of the world. This righteous society was destined by God to accomplish great things and defeat evil - an idea which found considerable political expression in the political doctrine of Manifest Destiny.
The American continent was treated as the Promised Land. The Native Americans were treated as the Canaanites, idolators who at were destined to be removed from the land so that God's chosen people could settle it and establish a godly society, or at worst were destined to be extermined - a fate which befell more than one group in the Old Testament.
What is important to understand here is that the Old Testament and the stories about what the Jews did were not read simply as mundane historical accounts. Instead, they were treated as templates for the ongoing struggle of good against evil, of Christianity against Satan. It wasn't history, it was current reality - what happened then was happening again and would continue to happen until Jesus returned again and God established his final sovereignty over the Earth. This is conception of history a set of patterns and events which continually recurr may seem alien to some, but it is a fundamental premise which lies behind much of the writing and thinking of fundamentalist and evangelical Christians throughout American history.
Although the religious aspects of this vision of American destiny have lessened over time in the words of various politicians, they have not disappeared altogether and its basic ideas remain prominent in American social and political life. Thus, it is not surprising that the "New Israel" of America should experience some sense of identification with the reestablishment of the "Old Israel" of Jews. Nevertheless, that isn't the only ingredient to America's support of Israel. There is also the issue of Armageddon.
Fundamentalist and evangelical Christians place a great deal of emphasis on the prophecies which can be found throughout the Bible, both in the Old and New Testaments. According to some, it is prophecized that the Second Coming of Jesus Christ and Armageddon - the final battle between good and evil, between God and Satan - will only occur after the restoration of Israel as a homeland for the Jews.
According to such beliefs, the basic scenario will occur as follows: first, Israel is to be reestablished as a Jewish (i.e., non-Christian) state; second, Jews will rebuild Solomon's Temple at it's original site and restore the ancient practice of animal sacrifices; third there will be a period of tribulation during which the Antichrist will arrive to mislead both the Jews and the rest of the world; next Jesus will return to convert the Jews to the Truth Faith of Christianity and defeat the Antichrist.
That these events are destined to occur is a very popular and widespread belief among Christians in America, even those who would not necessarily identify themselves as fundamentalist or evengelical. Naturally, no one who believes this will consciously act in a way which might weaken Israel or cause it to disappear.
To see just how far this can go we need look no fruther than the writings of Hal Lindsey. During the 1970s, his book The Late Great Planet Earth was widely popular among Christians of all denominations in America. In it he describes the relationship between Biblical prophecy and contemporary political events and concludes that Israel is the center of everything - the key to the Second Coming of Christ and the battle between good and evil. He recommends unreserved support for Israel in everything it does in order to fight Satan's efforts to undermine Israel and prevent Jesus from returning.
Lindsey also urges Christians to support Jews in the rebuilding of Solomon's Temple, even though that would require the destruction of the al-Aqsa mosque, one of the most revered holy sites in Islam. Today, Lindsey's ideas continue to resonate among American Christians through the popular series of fictional books, Left Behind, written by Tim Lahaye and Jerry B. Jenkins. These best-selling novels purport to describe how events might proceed after the Rapture and during the final struggle between Christ and the Antichrist.
There are, of course, other reasons why America supports Israel - it is the only real democracy in the Middle East, for example, and there is certainly still some guilty over what happened to the Jews during World War II. These reasons cannot be underestimate, much less dismissed. Nevertheless, the above religious factors go a long way in explaining just how extreme the support of Israel can be and why, very often, American Christians ignore the things which the Israeli government has done wrong. There is no Jewish conspiracy to deceive Americas; rather, there is a blindness among American Christians which causes them to deceive themselves."
"There has always been a great deal of support both for Zionism generally and Israel in particular among Christians in America. This fact has been somewhat puzzling to Arabs in the Middle East who fail to see why any such convergence of interests and views would ever occur - because of this, there has been a tendency to believe that there is a conspiracy of Jews who control American media and American politics, thus confusing and misleading the American people (who tend to be well liked by Arabs). How else to explain American and Christian support for Israel?
In fact, no conspiracies are necessary to explain what is going on - much mundane facts about America and American Christianity do the job just fine. The first thing which needs to be understood is the long-standing self-identification of American Christians as God's chosen people - in fact, as being literally a New Israel.
The Puritans and some other early Engligh colonists regularly referred to themselves as a "new Israel," repeating the biblical story of Exodus by establishing a "City on the Hill" which would serve as a moral and religious beacon for the rest of the world. This righteous society was destined by God to accomplish great things and defeat evil - an idea which found considerable political expression in the political doctrine of Manifest Destiny.
The American continent was treated as the Promised Land. The Native Americans were treated as the Canaanites, idolators who at were destined to be removed from the land so that God's chosen people could settle it and establish a godly society, or at worst were destined to be extermined - a fate which befell more than one group in the Old Testament.
What is important to understand here is that the Old Testament and the stories about what the Jews did were not read simply as mundane historical accounts. Instead, they were treated as templates for the ongoing struggle of good against evil, of Christianity against Satan. It wasn't history, it was current reality - what happened then was happening again and would continue to happen until Jesus returned again and God established his final sovereignty over the Earth. This is conception of history a set of patterns and events which continually recurr may seem alien to some, but it is a fundamental premise which lies behind much of the writing and thinking of fundamentalist and evangelical Christians throughout American history.
Although the religious aspects of this vision of American destiny have lessened over time in the words of various politicians, they have not disappeared altogether and its basic ideas remain prominent in American social and political life. Thus, it is not surprising that the "New Israel" of America should experience some sense of identification with the reestablishment of the "Old Israel" of Jews. Nevertheless, that isn't the only ingredient to America's support of Israel. There is also the issue of Armageddon.
Fundamentalist and evangelical Christians place a great deal of emphasis on the prophecies which can be found throughout the Bible, both in the Old and New Testaments. According to some, it is prophecized that the Second Coming of Jesus Christ and Armageddon - the final battle between good and evil, between God and Satan - will only occur after the restoration of Israel as a homeland for the Jews.
According to such beliefs, the basic scenario will occur as follows: first, Israel is to be reestablished as a Jewish (i.e., non-Christian) state; second, Jews will rebuild Solomon's Temple at it's original site and restore the ancient practice of animal sacrifices; third there will be a period of tribulation during which the Antichrist will arrive to mislead both the Jews and the rest of the world; next Jesus will return to convert the Jews to the Truth Faith of Christianity and defeat the Antichrist.
That these events are destined to occur is a very popular and widespread belief among Christians in America, even those who would not necessarily identify themselves as fundamentalist or evengelical. Naturally, no one who believes this will consciously act in a way which might weaken Israel or cause it to disappear.
To see just how far this can go we need look no fruther than the writings of Hal Lindsey. During the 1970s, his book The Late Great Planet Earth was widely popular among Christians of all denominations in America. In it he describes the relationship between Biblical prophecy and contemporary political events and concludes that Israel is the center of everything - the key to the Second Coming of Christ and the battle between good and evil. He recommends unreserved support for Israel in everything it does in order to fight Satan's efforts to undermine Israel and prevent Jesus from returning.
Lindsey also urges Christians to support Jews in the rebuilding of Solomon's Temple, even though that would require the destruction of the al-Aqsa mosque, one of the most revered holy sites in Islam. Today, Lindsey's ideas continue to resonate among American Christians through the popular series of fictional books, Left Behind, written by Tim Lahaye and Jerry B. Jenkins. These best-selling novels purport to describe how events might proceed after the Rapture and during the final struggle between Christ and the Antichrist.
There are, of course, other reasons why America supports Israel - it is the only real democracy in the Middle East, for example, and there is certainly still some guilty over what happened to the Jews during World War II. These reasons cannot be underestimate, much less dismissed. Nevertheless, the above religious factors go a long way in explaining just how extreme the support of Israel can be and why, very often, American Christians ignore the things which the Israeli government has done wrong. There is no Jewish conspiracy to deceive Americas; rather, there is a blindness among American Christians which causes them to deceive themselves."
So YOU are saying it is o.k. to take someones land, and give it to someone else?
(I am not advocating the present dismantling of the nation of Israel, any more than I am in favor of returning the U.S. to the native Americans. Only pointing out that it should never have been.)
This horribly racist and anti-Arabic idea, that we have to blow up half the middle east, so that Israel can live in luxury, is horribly wicked. Israelis are NO MORE VALUABLE than any other race. All are equally important. These are not "God's people"...they are a secular, God hating, Christ denying country, that should be treated just like everyone else...with dignity and respect; not bowed and scraped over.
glfredrick
New Member
It is interesting that the dynamic of Israel has not changed much since it was given sovereignty over its own land. The split between Jews and Arabic peoples is about 75%/20% with 5% being others. And, the Arabic people who actually live in Israel are more prosperous, more free, and decidedly ready to stay there under Israel's rule. The problems are steming from those living just outside the borders where life conditions go down dramatically into 3rd world status.
This chart shows the population trends:
Year Jews Arabs Total % of Jews to Total
1914 60,000 731,000 791,000 7.585%
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1922 83,790 668,258 752,048 11.141%
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1931 174,606 858,708 1,033,314 16.897%
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1941 474,102 1,111,398 1,585,500 29.902%
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1950 1,203,000 1,172,100 2,375,100 50.650%
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1960 1,911,300 1,340,100 3,251,400 58.783%
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1970 * 2,582,000 1,045,000 3,627,000 71.188%
* Decrease in the Arab population between 1960 and 1970 due to Arab refugees from the 1967 War.
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1980 3,282,700 2,100,000 5,382,700 60.986%
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1995 4,495,100 3,506,900 8,002,000 56.173%
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2005 5,275,700 5,139,100 10,414,800 50.656%
And as I said, not in favor of dismantling their country. But if they love their country so much, they need to fight for it THEMSELVES...just like we do.
glfredrick
New Member
I believe they have... In fact, Obama (and Bush before him) have been telling Israel to sit on their anger toward rising terrorist nations like Iran. If Israel had their druthers, they would simply remove Iran from the map and create a new seaside village in its place.
Israel is more than capable of taking care of their own business, and whether or not you consider this as a factor, it appears that God is yet on their side. They tend to prevail against far greater foes just like OT records indicate from their history.
Just how much have we fought for Israel, BTW? I don't recall us doing much in that regard.
No, but we give them a lot of tax payer money, and weapons. Time for that to end. I agree that Israel is capable of taking care of itself, and it certainly has a right to do what it feels is necessary to defend herself.
You'll have to ask the UN. That's not the only time it has been done. It made it easier that there is and never has been a nation called Palestine. Palestinians did not "own" the land and had no government. They merely occupied it.
The question still begs an answer.
Zionism is the belief that Jews should have their own country. Since you seem to hate zionists and zionism, it follows that you don't agree that the nation of Israel should exist.
Again. Sounds vaguely familiar.:tonofbricks:
Congratulations. Puts you squarely in the camp of some of the most repressive and terroristic regimes in the world.
Right..."Say you love Israel the most, and they are better than everyone else, or you are a racist bigot!"
What silliness. Exalting Israel is racism, pure and simple. "We hold these truths to be self-evident, that all men are created equal..."
Taking away someones stuff, and giving it to someone else, is stealing, and wrong.
Zionism is better understood as not just the belief that jews should have their own country, but goes way beyond that - it is an idolatrous devotional obsession with ALL things Israeli/Jew, including the retaking of ancient land possessions.
Actually, Zionism was the belief that the land of Israel should be taken away from its current owners, and given to the Jews for a state. It developed long before Israel had a state. It also involves the belief of the Jews as being "God's chosen people" (rather than the church, consisting of all nations). It is an inherently racist idea, as it asserts an imagined divine to castigate other races, for the sake of the Jews.
What you are referring to is really Neo-Zionism, which developed after this actually happened.
Michael Wrenn
New Member
Zionism is much, much more than that, and it goes way beyond that, as my quoted article "America, Christianity and Zionism" shows.
You know that, but you ignore it, oversimplify the matter, and relish your unjust attacks and accusations.
And that was to be expected.
I have no idea what you are talking about. You have not asked a question. Is the central question "Do you believe all people are equal, and no one has a right to take stuff from other people?" Cause my answer would be yes.
Well it looks like HD has finally won the argument of the the thread here. He is absolutely right that Americans fought for our country OURSELVES.
Salty
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Lets take a look at the War of Independence (1775-1783)
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Unless you want to consider the French who fought with us and some German troops as well. and don't forget Gen Casimir Pulaski (Poland) who fought
with other Poles.
Should we note that even some from Canada fought for the US?
anybody have any info on foreign "interference" during the War Between the States?
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No - all men are NOT created equal!
The Palestinians removed themselves from Israel. We didn't push them out and neither did the Israelis -
"The Arab governments told us: Get out so that we can get in. So we got out, but they did not get in.'' (in Ad Difaa, Jordan daily, Sept. 6, 1954).
Nonsense. We have never gone to war for Israel.
poncho
Well-Known Member
We primarily go to war for the benefit of the global bankers and corporations but we do use the Arab/Israeli conflict as a justification for it. No one would want to go to war just for the benefit of the global bankers and corporations. So truths must be stretched and lies must be told to get the people behind another hostile corporate takeover we call war and defense.
A zionist calling another a racist is like the pot calling the kettle black.
A zionist calling another a racist is like the pot calling the kettle black.
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Like it or not, there is a growing awareness among those who truly love America and her children that things have gone seriously awry in our government.
From the horse's mouth:
IRAQ: War Launched to Protect Israel - Bush Adviser [remarks by Philip Zelikow (also Jewish dual citizen (yea, I know I know, I'm pegged a Jew hater because I point tidbits like that out))]
March 29, 2004
”Why would Iraq attack America or use nuclear weapons against us? I'll tell you what I think the real threat (is) and actually has been since 1990 -- it's the threat against Israel,” Zelikow told a crowd at the University of Virginia on Sep. 10, 2002, speaking on a panel of foreign policy experts assessing the impact of 9/11 and the future of the war on the al-Qaeda terrorist organisation.”
“In his university speech, Zelikow, who strongly backed attacking the Iraqi dictator, also explained the threat to Israel by arguing that Baghdad was preparing in 1990-91 to spend huge amounts of scarce hard currency to harness communications against electromagnetic pulse, a side-effect of a nuclear explosion that could sever radio, electronic and electrical communications.””
“He also suggested that the danger of biological weapons falling into the hands of the anti-Israeli Islamic Resistance Movement, known by its Arabic acronym Hamas, would threaten Israel rather than the United States, and that those weapons could have been developed to the point where they could deter Washington from attacking Hamas.”
A few other remarks from those 'in the know':
Republican Paul Findley Dares to Speak Out -- Again ! - AIPAC Exposed
(> one hr video, very enlightening, you won't watch it, perhaps someone will)
In 1989, Findley wrote the best selling book "They Dare to Speak Out: People and Institutions Confront Israel's Lobby" in which he claims that the pro-Israel lobby, notably AIPAC, has vast undue influence over the United States Congress. He refers to the lobby as "the 700-pound gorilla in Washington". The Washington Post said "former congressman Paul Findley's message is straightforward and valid: Israeli influence in the United States, including in the inner sanctums of government, is very strong."......A year after the September 11 attack, Findley published an article saying that this attack would never have occurred were it not for uncritical U.S. support of Israel. In that same article, he wrote that "U.S. policy on the Mideast is made in Israel, not in Washington," and that "once beloved worldwide, the U.S. government finds itself reviled in most countries because it provides unconditional support of Israeli violations of the United Nations Charter, international law, and the precepts of all major religious faiths.".....Findley blames the Israeli lobby for contributing to his defeat in 1982 : "But, in seeking gains for Israel, they rigorously stifled dissent and intimidated the entire Congress. They still do. They defeat legislators who criticize Israel. Senators Adlai Stevenson and Charles Percy, and Reps. Pete McCloskey, Cynthia McKinney, Earl F. Hilliard, and myself were defeated at the polls by candidates heavily financed by pro-Israel forces. McKinney alone was able to regain her seat in Congress.".......Findley has claimed that the 2003 invasion of Iraq was launched primarily to benefit Israel, at the behest of pro-Israeli U.S. interest groups......Findley spoke to NPR about the publication of Mearsheimer and Walt's controversial 2006 working paper, The Israel Lobby and U.S. Foreign Policy : "You can't imagine how pleased I was [...] I think I can pose as a foremost expert on the lobby for Israel, because I was the target the last three years I was in Congress."”
Failed Mideast Policy is Creating More Terrorism
By US Senator Ernest F. Hollings
May 6, 2004
“Now everyone knows what was not the cause. Even President Bush acknowledges that Saddam Hussein had nothing to do with 9/11. Listing the 45 countries where al-Qaida was operating on September 11 (70 cells in the U.S.), the State Department did not list Iraq. Richard Clarke, in “Against All Enemies,” tells how the United States had not received any threat of terrorism for 10 years from Saddam at the time of our invasion.....Of course there were no weapons of mass destruction. Israel’s intelligence, Mossad, knows what’s going on in Iraq. They are the best. They have to know.....Israel’s survival depends on knowing. Israel long since would have taken us to the weapons of mass destruction if there were any or if they had been removed. With Iraq no threat, why invade a sovereign country? The answer: President Bush’s policy to secure Israel.....George W. Bush, as stated by former Treasury Secretary Paul O’Neill and others, started laying the groundwork to invade Iraq days after inauguration. And, without any Iraq connection to 9/11, within weeks he had the Pentagon outlining a plan to invade Iraq. He was determined.””
[Rep] Moran Upsets Jewish Groups AgainBy Amy Gardner
September 15, 2007
Rep. James P. Moran Jr. (D-Va.) has again come under fire from local Jewish organizations for remarking in a magazine interview that the "extraordinarily powerful" pro-Israel lobby played a strong role promoting the war in Iraq. .....In an interview with Tikkun, a California-based Jewish magazine, Moran said the American Israel Public Affairs Committee (AIPAC) is "the most powerful lobby and has pushed this war from the beginning. I don't think they represent the mainstream of American Jewish thinking at all, but because they are so well organized, and their members are extraordinarily powerful -- most of them are quite wealthy -- they have been able to exert power."
James Abourezk, former US Senator from South Dakota:
“I can tell you from personal experience that, at least in the Congress, the support Israel has in that body is based completely on political fear--fear of defeat by anyone who does not do what Israel wants done. I can also tell you that very few members of Congress--at least when I served there--have any affection for Israel or for its Lobby. What they have is contempt, but it is silenced by fear of being found out exactly how they feel. I've heard too many cloakroom conversations in which members of the Senate will voice their bitter feelings about how they're pushed around by the Lobby to think otherwise. In private one hears the dislike of Israel and the tactics of the Lobby, but not one of them is willing to risk the Lobby's animosity by making their feelings public.......the Lobby is quite clear in its efforts to suppress any congressional dissent from the policy of complete support for Israel which might hurt annual appropriations. Even one voice is attacked, as I was, on grounds that if Congress is completely silent on the issue, the press will have no one to quote, which effectively silences the press as well. Any journalists or editors who step out of line are quickly brought under control by well organized economic pressure against the newspaper caught sinning.”
We've Been Neo-Conned
by Rep Ron Paul:
Excerpt:
“Here is a brief summary of the general understanding of what neocons believe:
They agree with Trotsky on permanent revolution, violent as well as intellectual.
They are for redrawing the map of the Middle East and are willing to use force to do so.
They believe in preemptive war to achieve desired ends.
They accept the notion that the ends justify the means — that hard-ball politics is a moral necessity.
They express no opposition to the welfare state.
They are not bashful about an American empire; instead they strongly endorse it.
They believe lying is necessary for the state to survive.
They believe a powerful federal government is a benefit.
They believe pertinent facts about how a society should be run should be held by the elite and withheld from those who do not have the courage to deal with it.
They believe neutrality in foreign affairs is ill-advised.
They hold Leo Strauss in high esteem.
They believe imperialism, if progressive in nature, is appropriate.
Using American might to force American ideals on others is acceptable.
Force should not be limited to the defense of our country.
9-11 resulted from the lack of foreign entanglements, not from too many.
They dislike and despise libertarians (therefore, the same applies to all strict constitutionalists).
They endorse attacks on civil liberties, such as those found in the Patriot Act, as being necessary.
They unconditionally support Israel and have a close alliance with the Likud Party.”
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