Rosa Parks, dead at 92

[blackbird]

Originally posted by Craigbythesea:
</font><blockquote>quote:</font><hr />Originally posted by tinytim:
When laws are corrupted by prejudice and racism then this cuts against the very grain of God's treatment of humanity, not to mention His holiness. Racism and prejudice are sins, and laws that promote sin are morally wrong.

Or are you going to tell me that the law that was broken wasn't a racist law?

If a law is morally wrong, we have no reason to obey it. Actually if a person were to obey it, they would be committing the sin.

Is racism morally wrong?
If so, then any law based in racism is morally wrong.
And if that is true, then Rosa Parks had a divine right to break that law, not just a right but a duty!

Unless you can show us in Rom. 13 where the Bible expressly supports your personal opinion regarding civil rights and your right to disobey the law if it is contrary to your personal opinion of fairness, your opinion is nothing but modern, humanistic philosophy based upon currents trends in human opinion rather that the word of God.

</font>[/QUOTE]Somebody on this board(we don't care who) needs to do a google search to see if there was a law---in the books---in Montgomery, Alabama---on December 1, 1955---that expressly forbade African-Americans from riding in certain selected seats on the city bus system---or was it just a made up pipe dream of selected white men who were able at the time to "thumb" certain people around!!

Would somebody like to research the idea---bring back to this thread---the written law that forbade/excluded blacks from those seats!!

 

[Craigbythesea]

The Christians in Rome believed that the Roman laws that discriminated against them on the basis of their religion were neither fair nor just. They were not merely required to get up and surrender their seat to those who worshipped the emperor; they were required to surrender their homes to those who worshipped the emperor, and if they resisted the order to surrender their homes and other property, they were subject to the penalty of death! Paul, nonetheless, condemned civil disobedience.

The Jews expected Jesus to totally overthrow the Roman government and all of its unjust laws, and when he refused to do so, they cried out, “Crucify him.” Paul could have led a rebellion against the Roman government and all of its unjust laws, but he believed that Jesus had a better idea and he followed His example. And I believe that Paul was right in believing that Jesus had a better idea.

 

[Gold Dragon]

Originally posted by blackbird:
Somebody on this board(we don't care who) needs to do a google search to see if there was a law---in the books---in Montgomery, Alabama---on December 1, 1955---that expressly forbade African-Americans from riding in certain selected seats on the city bus system---or was it just a made up pipe dream of selected white men who were able at the time to "thumb" certain people around!!

Would somebody like to research the idea---bring back to this thread---the written law that forbade/excluded blacks from those seats!!

About.com : Jim Crow Laws

By the 1890s, as the gains of Reconstruction were stripped away, southern states began enacting Jim Crow laws that enforced separate facilities for blacks and whites. Here are samples of the laws enacted by various states.

Alabama
...
Transportation

All passenger stations in this state operated by any motor transportation company shall have separate waiting rooms or space and separate ticket windows for the white and colored races.

The conductor of each passenger train is authorized and required to assign each passenger to the car or the division of the car, when it is divided by a partition, designated for the race to which such passenger belongs.
...

Wikipedia : Jim Crow Law

 

[NaasPreacher (C4K)]

Originally posted by blackbird:
</font><blockquote>quote:</font><hr />Originally posted by Craigbythesea:
</font><blockquote>quote:</font><hr />Originally posted by tinytim:
When laws are corrupted by prejudice and racism then this cuts against the very grain of God's treatment of humanity, not to mention His holiness. Racism and prejudice are sins, and laws that promote sin are morally wrong.

Or are you going to tell me that the law that was broken wasn't a racist law?

If a law is morally wrong, we have no reason to obey it. Actually if a person were to obey it, they would be committing the sin.

Is racism morally wrong?
If so, then any law based in racism is morally wrong.
And if that is true, then Rosa Parks had a divine right to break that law, not just a right but a duty!

Unless you can show us in Rom. 13 where the Bible expressly supports your personal opinion regarding civil rights and your right to disobey the law if it is contrary to your personal opinion of fairness, your opinion is nothing but modern, humanistic philosophy based upon currents trends in human opinion rather that the word of God.

</font>[/QUOTE]Somebody on this board(we don't care who) needs to do a google search to see if there was a law---in the books---in Montgomery, Alabama---on December 1, 1955---that expressly forbade African-Americans from riding in certain selected seats on the city bus system---or was it just a made up pipe dream of selected white men who were able at the time to "thumb" certain people around!!

Would somebody like to research the idea---bring back to this thread---the written law that forbade/excluded blacks from those seats!! </font>[/QUOTE]http://home.att.net/~reniqua/code1.htm

The law resuired separate seating sections, regardless of whether the seats were occupied.

 

[Craigbythesea]

Blackbird wrote,

Somebody on this board(we don't care who) needs to do a google search to see if there was a law---in the books---in Montgomery, Alabama---on December 1, 1955---that expressly forbade African-Americans from riding in certain selected seats on the city bus system---or was it just a made up pipe dream of selected white men who were able at the time to "thumb" certain people around!!

First of all, let’s get the facts straight! Rosa Parks was not arrested for sitting in a seat in the front portion of the bus; she was arrested for violating an Alabama law requiring African American passengers to surrender their seats to white passengers when the bus that they are riding becomes so full that there are not enough seats for everyone. If you question the historical accuracy of the hundreds of accounts that have been published regarding this event, perhaps you yourself should look up this particular law and post it for us on this message board.

 

[Gershom]

It really gives me a belly laugh to see these guys pretending to be champions of scripture, referencing Rom 13, defending a law that is about as ungodly as can be.

 

[Gershom]

And now Mrs Parks will be the first woman to be honored by lying at the Capitol Rotunda this weekend. How do you like them apples?

 

[Craigbythesea]

Originally posted by Gershom:
It really gives me a belly laugh to see these guys pretending to be champions of scripture, referencing Rom 13, defending a law that is about as ungodly as can be.

It makes me sick in my stomach to see that some posters are espousing the views of modern, humanistic philosophy based upon currents trends in human opinion rather than clear and explicit statements in the Bible. Please tell us how you can get around the fact that Rosa Parks defied the words of instruction found in Romans 13. It is very easy to criticize the views of others, but it is not quite so easy to present a more accurate view when the view of your opponents is solidly based upon the Bible and your view is based upon whimsical humanism.

 

[Craigbythesea]

Originally posted by Gershom:
And now Mrs Parks will be the first woman to be honored by lying at the Capitol Rotunda this weekend. How do you like them apples?

Are you posting these facts as proof that Rosa Parks was without sin! How many other people who were without sin have lain at the Capitol Rotunda?

 

[blackbird]

The Jews in Jesus' day had a big problem with the Samaritians---But Jesus came along and in John's gospel Chapter 4---He shoots the arrow of Heaven's salvation straight into the heart of the Samaritian empire!!

I am so thankful that when Jesus saved me----He wasn't looking at the color of my skin!

Sister Rosa Parks not only helped set the African-American free---but in a sense--she kinda sorta helped set me free---from that old way of white man's thinkin' that once said--Seperate but equal---to the way I think today---EQUAL in all liberties!!

MLK said it right

"Let freedom ring!!"

"Let freedom ring!!"

Rosa Parks was not in defiance of Romans 13!! She---on the other hand---stomped Jim Crow law in the dirt where Jim Crow law belonged in the first place!!!

 

[Filmproducer]

AMEN Blackbird!

 

[tinytim]

Preach it Blackbird!!

 

[tinytim]

It is not just "human opinion" that racism is a sin and any law that upholds it is ungodly.

"For God so loved the world..." The whole world, not just white folks. You see, Romans 13 is not whole Bible. You have to read the Bible as a whole. To take one section to prove your point is proof-texting, and that is a wrong way to interpret scripture.

Did Christ sin by talking to the Samaritan Woman?
It was against the law to do so.

Did He sin when he healed on the sabbath?
It was against the law to do so.

Did he sin when he didn't wash his hands before he ate?
It was against the law to do so.

Did the woman with an issue of blood sin when she touched the hem of Jesus' garment?
It was against the law to do so. And not just state? law, but it was expressly written in scripture that because of her condition she was to be considered unclean and therefore could not touch a man. So did she sin?

Let's see Jesus' reaction to this woman breaking the law:

Mar 5:32 And he looked round about to see her that had done this thing.
Mar 5:33 But the woman fearing and trembling, knowing what was done in her, came and fell down before him, and told him all the truth.

(Of course she was afraid, she had just broken Jewish (ordained!) law)
Now did Jesus say, " Stone her she just broke the law! No. He said,

"And he said unto her, Daughter, thy faith hath made thee whole; go in peace, and be whole of thy plague."

He healed, blessed, and commended her for her faith. Did she break the law? yes. Was she right for doing so? Apparently our Lord thought she was. Are you going to argue with Him?
Some on here I believe would.
Of course some would've also been with the Pharisees when they asked why He was eating and drinking with the sinners.

Did Rosa Parks Break the law? Yes
Was she wrong? I guess we'll just have to disagree on that until we see her in Heaven and ask what Jesus said to her.

 

[tinytim]

I have a question that may be shading our view of this incident.

How many of you that has posted on this thread was alive in 1955 and remembers this incident?

I wasn't, I didn't come around until 1969.

Another question:

How many here was alive during slavery?
I doubt any. Well, I pretty well know none here was!

My point is Experiences can cloud our judgement.
The Christians in the south during slavery couldn't see the evil of it. Their life experiences clouded their interpretation of scripture.

 

[Craigbythesea]

Blackbird wrote,

Rosa Parks was not in defiance of Romans 13!!

Would you care to post the exegesis of Romans 13 upon which you base your claim? What does Romans 13 teach if it does not teach that Christians are to be obedient to civil government even if they disagree with both the government and its laws?

 

[Craigbythesea]

Originally posted by tinytim:
I have a question that may be shading our view of this incident.

How many of you that has posted on this thread was alive in 1955 and remembers this incident?

I wasn't, I didn't come around until 1969.

Another question:

How many here was alive during slavery?
I doubt any. Well, I pretty well know none here was!

My point is Experiences can cloud our judgement.
The Christians in the south during slavery couldn't see the evil of it. Their life experiences clouded their interpretation of scripture.

Very many things can cloud our interpretation of Scripture, but the number one culprit is the lack of familiarity with the language and culture of the original texts of Scripture. None of the things that you are speaking of in this thread have anything at all to do with the meaning of Romans 13. The message or Romans 13 is clear as crystal—unless you don’t like the message! And some people in this thread don’t like the message.

 

[tinytim]

Ok, I also believe that Romans 13 teaches that Christians are to be obedient to civil government even if they disagree with both the government and its laws.

But we are not talking about just disagreeing with law.
We are talking about a man made law that goes against a Holy principle that all men are created equal. The law was wrong.
BTW were there federal laws that were in disagreement with this local law?

What would you have done under Hitler?
I am serious, because the way you interpret this passage leaves you no room to have resisted Hitler, or even spoke out against Him.

I agree with Romans 13, along with 1 Peter 2:13-18, But I believe we have to interpret them from all of God's counsel (The whole Bible)

You have a very compelling argument. And I understand your principles, Maybe there was a better way to gain civil rights, but what was done was done. I believe she was right for standing up against an ungodly law, and you think she was wrong. I do believe we'll have to agree to disagree on this one.

 

[KenH]

Originally posted by Craigbythesea:
What does Romans 13 teach if it does not teach that Christians are to be obedient to civil government even if they disagree with both the government and its laws?

So if the government forbids Christianity you will cease to be a Christian so that you are obedient to the civil government?

 

[Filmproducer]

BTW were there federal laws that were in disagreement with this local law?

Yes, there were. Besides the equal protection clause of the fourteenth amendment, the Supreme Court ruled, in Shelley v. Kramer (1948), that judicial enforcement of restrictive covenants constituted state action and violated the fourteenth amendment. A similar case, Hurd v. Hodge (1948), held that judicial enforcement of restricted covenants not only violated the 14th amendment and the Civil Rights Act of 1866, but also that it was inconsistent with public policy of the United States. Buchanan v. Warley (1917) constitutionally condemned legalized apartheid. The most memorable is most likely Brown v. The Board of Education (1954), and its companion case Bolling v. Sharpe (1954), which stated that segregation violated the equal protection clause of the 14th amendment and restricted "liberty under law", which was protected by the fifth amendment. Notice all of these took place before Rosa's courageous and heroic stand.

Craigbythesea, how did Rosa Parks violate Romans 13 if the laws of the state themselves violated federal law? Our government is set up on the principle that the constitution is the supreme law of the land. Rosa Parks could not violate a law that was not even technically a law in the first place. It could not be a law, as supported by the supreme law of the land. She was a hero and was blessed by the Lord God with a long fulfilling life. That, in and of itself, speaks for her testimony before God.

 

[tinytim]

Thank you, Filmproducer.

So now we have a situation where she upheld a higher law while breaking a lower one.
I guess she lived by the law of the land, just not by law of the racist south.

How do you apply Romans 13 under these conditions. Federally, she did not sin.
The man, bus company, city and state were the ones breaking the federal laws under the Bill of rights. She did not sin, they did.
So Romans 13 does not apply here, for she did not break the law, the law was null and void by the federal law that trumped it.
She is still a hero.

[ October 29, 2005, 01:40 AM: Message edited by: tinytim ]