ROSES, a reasonable baptist position?

[Luke2427]

Option 1: I command you to flap your arms and fly. You cannot and will not do it because it is not possible. My command is not a viable command and will not happen.

Option 2: I command you to buy a G6 plane and fly. You cannot and will not do it not because it is impossible, but because it costs too much. My command is a viable command, but will not happen.

Let me get this straight. One is viable because it is something you cannot do because you are financially unable and the other is not viable because you are physically unable??

What kind of reasoning is this?

If you are unable, you are unable. Who cares about why you are unable. Whether you don't have legs or you can't afford the prosthetic ones- you are still not able to run the marathon.

For me to command you to do it would still be unreasonable since I am not God.

 

[webdog]

Let me get this straight. One is viable because it is something you cannot do because you are financially unable and the other is not viable because you are physically unable??

What kind of reasoning is this?

If you are unable, you are unable. Who cares about why you are unable. Whether you don't have legs or you can't afford the prosthetic ones- you are still not able to run the marathon.

For me to command you to do it would still be unreasonable since I am not God.

Now we may be getting somewhere. The reasoning is one is possible (but unlikely) and the other is impossible. Nobody said you were financially unable to do the command, but it would take a lot on your part to obey the command.

If you don't care why you are unable, why are you so adamant on who is able and insisting that your model to be the correct one?

 

[Luke2427]

Not the Bible I read. It doesn't even hint to a spiritually alive (regenerated) person perishing eternally.

Then you are not familiar with it. I just gave a half dozen Scriptures that say the contrary.

The parable of the sower shows life that never bore fruit and died. Since it never bore fruit it was not "saved" but it had spiritual life nonetheless.

You believe this too and I'll tell you why. You believe that man is born with some semblance of spiritual life whereby he can understand spiritual matters and choose Christ and put faith in Him. But all who die without Christ still perish. There you have spiritual life- perishing.

I do not believe that man is born with the slightest shred of spiritual life. But I see the Bible teaches that the seed fell among certain types of ground and life sprang forth but was choked out or burned up before the process could be complete.

I also understand that there are these apostates walking around who CANNOT be renewed again to repentance who are called- twice dead.

They were never saved, but they had, for a brief time, spiritual life.

 

[Luke2427]

Now we may be getting somewhere. The reasoning is one is possible (but unlikely) and the other is impossible. Nobody said you were financially unable to do the command, but it would take a lot on your part to obey the command.

If you don't care why you are unable, why are you so adamant on who is able and insisting that your model to be the correct one?

So you are saying it is possible for unregenerate man to keep all the laws of God all his life????

Because that is what God commands him to do.

You know better, don't you?

Is God unjust for commanding men to do what they cannot do?

If he is- you tell Him, OK?

 

[webdog]

Then you are not familiar with it. I just gave a half dozen Scriptures that say the contrary.

The parable of the sower shows life that never bore fruit and died. Since it never bore fruit it was not "saved" but it had spiritual life nonetheless.

You believe this too and I'll tell you why. You believe that man is born with some semblance of spiritual life whereby he can understand spiritual matters and choose Christ and put faith in Him. But all who die without Christ still perish. There you have spiritual life- perishing.

I do not believe that man is born with the slightest shred of spiritual life. But I see the Bible teaches that the seed fell among certain types of ground and life sprang forth but was choked out or burned up before the process could be complete.

I also understand that there are these apostates walking around who CANNOT be renewed again to repentance who are called- twice dead.

They were never saved, but they had, for a brief time, spiritual life.

You shouldn't build a doctrine around a parable. A parable points to biblical truth, it is not to be taken as literal biblical truth. All but one person in the parable was saved, but their growth and fruitfulness differed.

 

[webdog]

So you are saying it is possible for unregenerate man to keep all the laws of God all his life????

With the sin nature, they will violate all of God's law collectively at some point. Technically, is it possible? Knowing what we do about the sin nature that's a question done from hindsight. An MRDD person has not violated God's law which is done deliberately, but then again I don't believe Scripture supports that they are unregenerate. It's actually redundant as if you are unregenerate, you have already broken God's law. Is it possible for a regenerate person to keep all of God's law from the point of regeneration?

God's never unjust, that is the point of my view.

 

[Luke2427]

You shouldn't build a doctrine around a parable. A parable points to biblical truth, it is not to be taken as literal biblical truth. All but one person in the parable was saved, but their growth and fruitfulness differed.

No, Webdog. That is not the message of that parable at all. Jesus said that a tree that does not bring forth fruit is to be hewn down and cast into the fire.

Saved folks bring forth fruit- some an hundred, some sixty and some thirty fold.

Fruitless trees are cursed by Christ and withered.

And I, obviously, did not build my position only on the parable. I gave a half dozen references to which you have not referred to.

 

[Luke2427]

With the sin nature, they will violate all of God's law collectively at some point. Technically, is it possible? Knowing what we do about the sin nature that's a question done from hindsight. An MRDD person has not violated God's law which is done deliberately, but then again I don't believe Scripture supports that they are unregenerate. It's actually redundant as if you are unregenerate, you have already broken God's law. Is it possible for a regenerate person to keep all of God's law from the point of regeneration?

God's never unjust, that is the point of my view.

I appreciate that Webdog, really. I fought against Calvinism for years because I thought that it taught that God was unjust. That is why you fight against it, I suppose.

But then I learned that God gets to be the definer of justice.

And when I understood that men deserve nothing from God then I began to wonder that he would save the vast multitudes that he saves.

But your analogy does not hold water. Let's be honest. No man has ever nor will ever keep the Ten Commandments. But God commands him to.

Now will you speak to the Almighty and tell him that he is unjust?

 

[webdog]

No, Webdog. That is not the message of that parable at all. Jesus said that a tree that does not bring forth fruit is to be hewn down and cast into the fire.

Saved folks bring forth fruit- some an hundred, some sixty and some thirty fold.

Fruitless trees are cursed by Christ and withered.

And I, obviously, did not build my position only on the parable. I gave a half dozen references to which you have not referred to.

We disagree on the parable....the seed is truth, not salvation. The only ones I know that interpret that parable as you do are those who believe you can lose your salvation. Your view is actually quite unorthodox as you state there was never any salvation at all...just regeneration.

I went back to page 6 and couldn't find the references you mentioned.

 

[webdog]

I appreciate that Webdog, really. I fought against Calvinism for years because I thought that it taught that God was unjust. That is why you fight against it, I suppose.

No, I fight against it because I think it's false

Is it possible for a regenerate person to keep all of God's law from the point of regeneration? Was it possible for Adam to obey God's command? What is the reason for this, because it is impossible or because man is unwilling (regardless of state).

I don't have to tell God what justice is...He has told us, and it does not include being unable to respond to Him when He commands it. Will you tell Him your understanding of His justice is what it really is?

 

[Luke2427]

We disagree on the parable....the seed is truth, not salvation. The only ones I know that interpret that parable as you do are those who believe you can lose your salvation. Your view is actually quite unorthodox as you state there was never any salvation at all...just regeneration.

I went back to page 6 and couldn't find the references you mentioned.

Then you don't know many scholars, Webdog. These people are not saved in the parable except one. Nobody I know doubts that except you.

People who believe you can lose your salvation are the only ones who believe that these other people are saved. Because they beleive thaey are saved then when they dry up and die they have lost their salvation.

The seed IS truth. That's what I am saying. You are not paying attention at all. I mean at all.

I am saying they weren't saved. I have said that repeatedly. For you to say that I am saying the seed is salvation is for you to show that you are not paying the least bit of attention to what I am saying.

Go back and read the posts, more thoroughly this time.

 

[Luke2427]

No, I fight against it because I think it's false

Is it possible for a regenerate person to keep all of God's law from the point of regeneration? Was it possible for Adam to obey God's command? What is the reason for this, because it is impossible or because man is unwilling (regardless of state).

I don't have to tell God what justice is...He has told us, and it does not include being unable to respond to Him when He commands it. Will you tell Him your understanding of His justice is what it really is?

You are the one who is telling God how he must judge men. You are the one who is telling the Almighty that he cannot judge people for not doing what they cannot do even though I have proven to you unequivocally that he does just that.

 

[Luke2427]

No, I fight against it because I think it's false

Is it possible for a regenerate person to keep all of God's law from the point of regeneration? Was it possible for Adam to obey God's command? What is the reason for this, because it is impossible or because man is unwilling (regardless of state).

I don't have to tell God what justice is...He has told us, and it does not include being unable to respond to Him when He commands it. Will you tell Him your understanding of His justice is what it really is?

Then you literally believe that sinless perfection is possible for a person who does not know Christ.

No wonder we can't get on the same page. Doesn't this make you a Pelagian?

 

[webdog]

Then you don't know many scholars, Webdog. These people are not saved in the parable except one. Nobody I know doubts that except you.

Adam Clarke, Jamieson Fausset and Barne are a few to start with....how many scholars do you know that teach your view (you can be regenerated and still lost)?

People who believe you can lose your salvation are the only ones who believe that these other people are saved. Because they beleive thaey are saved then when they dry up and die they have lost their salvation.

Not true...besides you just said you knew of nobody except for me

The seed IS truth. That's what I am saying. You are not paying attention at all. I mean at all.

To what?

I am saying they weren't saved. I have said that repeatedly. For you to say that I am saying the seed is salvation is for you to show that you are not paying the least bit of attention to what I am saying.

You have a poor grasp on definitions. Regeneration is spiritual life, it's the rebirth. THAT IS SALVATION.

Go back and read the posts, more thoroughly this time.

I said I went back to page 6...why not just be specific where these half dozen other verses are that support your view?

 

[webdog]

You are the one who is telling God how he must judge men. You are the one who is telling the Almighty that he cannot judge people for not doing what they cannot do even though I have proven to you unequivocally that he does just that.

You hold an awful high standard of you arguments...you have proven no such thing. I have already said, I haven't told God anything...He told us what justice is. For some reason you have a problem with that.

Then you literally believe that sinless perfection is possible for a person who does not know Christ.

No wonder we can't get on the same page. Doesn't this make you a Pelagian?

Not what I asked, and not what I believe. Why not answer what I ask...I've asked it twice now.

 

[Luke2427]

Adam Clarke, Jamieson Fausset and Barne are a few to start with....how many scholars do you know that teach your view (you can be regenerated and still lost)?
Not true...besides you just said you knew of nobody except for me
To what?
You have a poor grasp on definitions. Regeneration is spiritual life, it's the rebirth. THAT IS SALVATION.
I said I went back to page 6...why not just be specific where these half dozen other verses are that support your view?

Do you honestly not remember me saying "twice dead" several times? Honestly?

Do you honestly not recall me saying that they CANNOT be renewed again to repentance?

Do you not recall the reference to dogs returning to their own vomit and sows to the mire?

 

[Luke2427]

You hold an awful high standard of you arguments...you have proven no such thing. I have already said, I haven't told God anything...He told us what justice is. For some reason you have a problem with that.

Where did he tell us that he had to only command men to do what they can do?

God tells men to do what they cannot do, in part, to prove that they cannot do it that the law may be a schoolmaster that brings us to Christ.

The Bible says that man cannot keep the commandments- but there they are- commandments from God.

Let me hasten to apologize here. I just noticed that I am getting a bit snippy. For that I ask your forgiveness. It does not enhance our goal of getting tot he bottom of this matter.

 

[webdog]

Do you honestly not remember me saying "twice dead" several times? Honestly?

I remember you saying that...where is the Scripture?

Do you honestly not recall me saying that they CANNOT be renewed again to repentance?

I remember you saying that...where is the Scripture?

Do you not recall the reference to dogs returning to their own vomit and sows to the mire?

I remember you saying that...where is the Scripture?

You stated you supplied Scripture, and that's what I was looking for...not commentary on what you think that means. For the record, I don't believe any of those references prove or even support regenerated people going to hell.

 

[John Toppass]

Quote:
Originally Posted by Earth, Wind & Fire
As my spiritual advisors would say when dealing with incredibly small minded individuals with absolutely no ability to reason or think out of the box.....Forget Um! LOL!

Is it just my dirty mind or is this over the line?

If it is your dirty mind, then mine is just as dirty. But, I think it was an intentional use of an acronym as proven in the hilighting. I pray that he would find different spiritual advisors.

 

[Luke2427]

I remember you saying that...where is the Scripture?
I remember you saying that...where is the Scripture?
I remember you saying that...where is the Scripture?

You stated you supplied Scripture, and that's what I was looking for...not commentary on what you think that means. For the record, I don't believe any of those references prove or even support regenerated people going to hell.

Look. We are not going to agree on this because you cannot see salvation as a process. You must think that conviction, repentance, faith, regeneration etc.. all must happen at the exact same instant.

Until you understand that regeneration precedes faith as was proven in the previous thread then you are not going to understand that regeneration precedes salvation.

You are going to see regeneration and salvation as nothing more than synonyms.

I quoted those verses. They are found in Jude and Hebrews 6 etc... They are nearly quoted verbatim so there is no commentary on my part. Just what the verses actually say.