Rumsfeld - This is really disgusting!

[The Galatian]

Now we do. We're stuck in it and now we have to win, regardless of the cost.

Sometimes, it's a lot easier to get in something than out of it.

You know the difference between Vietnam and Iraq?

Bush had a plan for getting out of Vietnam.

 

[LadyEagle]

http://www.baptistboard.com/ubb/ultimatebb.php/topic/1/2323.html

 

[Joseph_Botwinick]

http://www.baptistboard.com/ubb/ultimatebb.php/topic/1/2669/3.html#000031

 

[Joseph_Botwinick]

Originally posted by poncho:
Been bust typing and yawning, can I get back to you tomorrow?

Poncho,

Are you still here or did the little green men come and get you?

Joseph Botwinick

 

[Dragoon68]

Originally posted by The Galatian:
</font><blockquote>quote:</font><hr />I don't think that the problem was with what he did during the Vietnam Conflict, but the lies he helped spread when he came back.

I didn't believe him, either. But then we discovered My Lai, and the Phoenix Program, and America learned that he was right.

Not every soldier. Not even the majority of them. But atrocities were being committed every day, and Americans were doing them.

That's what Kerry said. He was right. And for that, some people will never forgive him. </font>[/QUOTE]No sir, it (the typical conduct of the American soldier in Viet Nam) wasn't anything like Kerry or his organization portrayed it to be! Sure, as in in every war, there were some war crimes committed which were, when known about, investigated and prosecuted. The military is very aggressive about that and we hold our troops to very high standards. Viet Nam was not an exception! War crimes were not wide spread, routine, condoned, organized, etc. on the part of American troops as was proclaimed by Kerry's organization and others. Saying that is a lie that discredits all who served and implies a lower level of character and moral values were used by veterans of that war than others. The vast majority of Viet Nam veterans know better and that's why it's found by them to be so repulsive.

The Phoenix Program was a legitimate internal security operation of RVN law enforcement and military agencies designed to detect, capture, imprison, convert, or destroy (kill) the Viet Cong infrastructure embedded in South Viet Nam. Remember this was a war against both external aggression and internal subversion. The Vietnamese Phoenix Program was advised first by the CIA and later the US military. It was a covert operation that was part of the total war effort. Sure, there were no doubt some misuses of the program in certain cases by certain persons, but the program itself was completely legal in so far as we were concerned. That wouldn't be a complete surprise in a tumultuous war time political situation such as existed in Viet Nam. There was considerable concern by opponents of the program that it was being used to eliminate political opposition. There were some Congressional hearings on the matter. Interesting books have been written on the subject since. I suspect there was also political motives in that opposition - there usually is! Regardless, it is wrong to imply that the Phoenix Program was organized war crime being carried out by the US and that participants of the CIA and US military were somehow criminal in their actions.

Patrick

 

[The Galatian]

No sir, it (the typical conduct of the American soldier in Viet Nam) wasn't anything like Kerry or his organization portrayed it to be!

As you probably know, Kerry did not accuse the average soldier of atrocities. He never even said a majority of them had done anything like that.

Sure, as in in every war, there were some war crimes committed which were, when known about, investigated and prosecuted.

If the killings of civillians under the Phoenix program (many of whom were innocent but the victim of feuds with the families of "informers") were all investigated and the guilty prosecuted, there would have been people frogmarched out of the Pentagon in cuffs, and many, many Americans in jail. It was a widespread, and long-lived program, and it was all too often misguided in the people it killed.

The Phoenix Program was a legitimate internal security operation of RVN law enforcement and military agencies designed to detect, capture, imprison, convert, or destroy (kill) the Viet Cong infrastructure embedded in South Viet Nam. Remember this was a war against both external aggression and internal subversion. The Vietnamese Phoenix Program was advised first by the CIA and later the US military. It was a covert operation that was part of the total war effort. Sure, there were no doubt some misuses of the program in certain cases by certain persons, but the program itself was completely legal in so far as we were concerned.

Making war on civilians is not legal in any sense. And it was criminal that so many innocent people died in that program.

Most soldiers didn't take part. But innocent people died every day as a result. Kerry told the truth.

And that's why some people will never forgive him.

 

[Dragoon68]

Originally posted by The Galatian:
</font><blockquote>quote:</font><hr />No sir, it (the typical conduct of the American soldier in Viet Nam) wasn't anything like Kerry or his organization portrayed it to be!

As you probably know, Kerry did not accuse the average soldier of atrocities. He never even said a majority of them had done anything like that.

Sure, as in in every war, there were some war crimes committed which were, when known about, investigated and prosecuted.

If the killings of civillians under the Phoenix program (many of whom were innocent but the victim of feuds with the families of "informers") were all investigated and the guilty prosecuted, there would have been people frogmarched out of the Pentagon in cuffs, and many, many Americans in jail. It was a widespread, and long-lived program, and it was all too often misguided in the people it killed.

The Phoenix Program was a legitimate internal security operation of RVN law enforcement and military agencies designed to detect, capture, imprison, convert, or destroy (kill) the Viet Cong infrastructure embedded in South Viet Nam. Remember this was a war against both external aggression and internal subversion. The Vietnamese Phoenix Program was advised first by the CIA and later the US military. It was a covert operation that was part of the total war effort. Sure, there were no doubt some misuses of the program in certain cases by certain persons, but the program itself was completely legal in so far as we were concerned.

Making war on civilians is not legal in any sense. And it was criminal that so many innocent people died in that program.

Most soldiers didn't take part. But innocent people died every day as a result. Kerry told the truth.

And that's why some people will never forgive him. </font>[/QUOTE]No sir, that's completely incorrect!

The war was not carried out against civilians. Viet Cong were not civilians although they "looked like" civilians especially during the daytime. The Phoenix Program was designed to find them and eliminate them. It was an RVN program to deal with the subversive acts of the Viet Cong. We provided advise and assistance. It was, on our part, completely legal, moral, appropriate, and the abuses were minimal.

No doubt the record, as well as personal experience, notes that corrpution and misuse of power was a problem within the Vietnamese government including within the Phoenix Program. We, however, worked very hard to combat that as did many Vietnamese who were truly dedicated to securing liberty for their country.

There are indeed a number of Americans that should have been carried off to jail during the Viet Nam war but very few of those ever wore the uniform of any of our military services.

 

[Joseph_Botwinick]

Originally posted by Joseph_Botwinick:
</font><blockquote>quote:</font><hr />Originally posted by poncho:
Been bust typing and yawning, can I get back to you tomorrow?

Poncho,

Are you still here or did the little green men come and get you?

Joseph Botwinick </font>[/QUOTE]Poncho?

 

[The Galatian]

No sir, that's completely incorrect!

You've been misled. The Phoenix program specifically targeted civilians who were sympathetic to the VC. Most of those killed took no part in combat.

The Phoenix Program was designed to find them and eliminate them. It was an RVN program to deal with the subversive acts of the Viet Cong.

You've been misled on that, too. It was a CIA program. And they very loosely defined "Viet Cong" to include almost any civilian, combatant, or not.

Here's a CIA document in the planning stages of the program.
http://www.thememoryhole.org/phoenix/attack-against.pdf

We provided advise and assistance. It was, on our part, completely legal, moral, appropriate, and the abuses were minimal.

In Cover-up Seymour Hersh tells how in February 1968 Ramsdell began “rounding up residents of Quang Ngai City whose names appeared on Phoenix blacklists.”5 Explained Ramsdell: “After Tet we knew who many of these people were, but we let them continue to function because we were controlling them. They led us to the VC security officer for the district. We wiped them out after Tet and then went ahead and picked up the small fish.”6 The people who were “wiped out,” Hersh explains, were “put to death” by the Phoenix Special Police.” 7

Ramsdell “simply eliminated everyone who was on those lists,” said Gerald Stout, an Army intelligence officer who fed Ramsdell names. “It was recrimination.” *8 Recrimination for Tet, at a minimum.

Unfortunately, according to Randolph Lane — the Quang Ngai Province MACV intelligence adviser — Ramsdell’s victims “were not Vietcong.”9 This fact is corroborated by Jeffrey Stein, a corporal working undercover for the 525th MIG, running agent nets in Quang Nam and southern Thua Thien provinces. According to Stein, the VNQDD was a Vietnamese militarist party that had a “world fascist allegiance and wanted to overthrow the Vietnamese government from the right! The people they were naming as Communists were left-wing Buddhists, and that information was going to the Phoenix program. We were being used to assassinate their political rivals.”

As Douglas Valentine relates in his book Operation Phoenix, the program may have first been exposed in 1970 when a group of South Vietnamese students staged a re-creation of their imprisonment and torture in so-called tiger cages.

"The students had been tried and convicted by a military field court," Valentine wrote. "Some were in shock and being fed intravenously. Some had had bamboo splinters shoved under their fingernails. One was deaf from having soapy water poured in his ears, and his ears pounded. The women students had been raped as well as tortured."

Following the tiger-cage spectacle, a congressional delegation traveled to Saigon and discovered a South Vietnamese military camp where several tiger cages were hidden behind a woodpile.

"From three to five men were shackled to the floor in each cage," Valentine continued. "Their legs were withered, and they scuttled like crabs across the floor, begging for food, water and mercy. Some cried. Others told of having lime buckets, which sat ready above each cage, emptied upon them."

"I never knew in the course of all those operations any detainee to live through his interrogation," Bart Osborn, a former CIA agent, told Congress in 1971. "They all died. There was never any reasonable establishment of the fact that any one of those individuals was, in fact, cooperating with the VC, but they all died and the majority were either tortured to death or . . . thrown out of helicopters."

But perhaps the worst publicity to arise in connection with Operation Phoenix involves the March 1968 massacre of 504 South Vietnamese civilians—almost all of them women, children and elderly men at a tiny hamlet in Quang Ngai province known as My Lai. The CIA’s exact role in that atrocity has never been proven, but as Valentine reports, members of one of the Vietnamese groups assisting the agency with Operation Phoenix—the VNQDD—visited My Lai the day before the massacre took place.

Furthermore, an Army sergeant accused of complicity in the massacre named a CIA officer who had allegedly provided his unit with a list of suspected Viet Cong to be assassinated in My Lai. The soldiers accused in the incident also claimed they had been given "intelligence" saying that the only people who would be in My Lai on the day of the planned attack were "hard-core VC guerrillas." New York Times reporter Seymour Hersh, who uncovered the massacre in 1970, revealed that the Phoenix blacklist of VC suspects in My Lai "was sharply reduced" after the massacre.
http://www.ocweekly.com/printme.php?&eid=50314

Exactly which men, women, and children were to die was the choice of informants, who often settled old grudges and feuds by that means.

No doubt the record, as well as personal experience, notes that corrpution and misuse of power was a problem within the Vietnamese government including within the Phoenix Program. We, however, worked very hard to combat that as did many Vietnamese who were truly dedicated to securing liberty for their country.

Regrettably, Americans were part of the problem. We were often manipulated into killing civilians who had nothing to do with the Viet Cong. Sometimes we just made mistakes. But when someone was brought in, they were essentiallyi doomed. No one ever came out of those camps, until very late in the program. Almost all of them were killed.

Horrifying as it is, Kerry told the truth. We do America a disservice by not facing the fact and learning from it.

That failure is what led to other atrocities in Iraq. Fortunately, it was handled better than it was in the case of Vietnam. And that fact no doubt saved many Iraqi lives.

But not much better. The men who made it possible, the men who argued that a little torture wasn't a bad thing, or that common decency wasn't applicable when applied to civilian prisoners, got off free, as happened in Vietnam.

 

[Dragoon68]

Originally posted by The Galatian:
You've been misled. The Phoenix program specifically targeted civilians who were sympathetic to the VC. Most of those killed took no part in combat.

I can appreciate your thoughts on this but, no, I'm neither mislead nor misinformed on this subject.

Douglas Valentine has written a number of books that take selected archived documents and reach false conclusions. Careful observation will show that his writings also attempt to link the Phoenix Program to our Homeland Security program and, of course, blame President Bush and his administration for it. The web site you referenced is also his which he uses to advertise his book. He paints a picture that completely misleads his readers into a false understanding of the purpose and execution of the Phoenix Program. This kind of stuff is really very typical of a lot of writing about the Viet Nam war which tends to solicit some mixed brew of shame and glory for the subjects along with an element of self induced guilt. This works really well if the subject concerns something that was "secret" but is now "revealed". The shelves in book stores are well stocked with these type writings and especially so in the Viet Nam war section. So much for credibility of his writings!

On the plus side, Valetine's web site does provide access to a number of interesting documents but they've been available for a while now and there are many others as well. Reading them together with other credible resources and putting everything into proper context leads to the correct conclusion that the Phoenix Program was not some evil creation of the CIA akin to Hilter's final solution but just a good attempt at dealing with a serious problem in the best way possible. I give thanks to those among us that helped plan and execute the program and I want them to know our country appreciates them and their service and will not permit their reputations to be undeservedly tarnished.

There were misuses of the program, just as there was on conventional warfare, but it was a legitimate RVN government program designed to root out and destroy subversive Viet Cong elements as part of the overall war. We provided advice and support. Yes, the CIA was involved in the early planning of the program but it was an RVN operation and one which the National Police had the lead. We didn't run the program even though we did provide help for it particularly in cordon and search operations when were seeking persons believed to be hiding in a particular hamlet.

It's easy to sift through old records and glean out those that point out shortcomings and failures. Those things do happen in war just like they do in every day civilian life. Man is a fallible being. One of man's weaknesses is our propensity to seek out the negatives in everything. We rarely document the good aspects of things as carefully as we do the bad. Bad news makes good news because it sells. That's true whether it's the evening news, special documentaries, or books that "expose the truth". This "truth" is usually a long ways from reality.

Certainly we, and RVN, were vigorous about pursuing the Viet Cong enemy and rightfully so. Certainly we targeted them to be killed. That's what a soldier does every time he fires a weapon at an enemy! The tactics of the Viet Cong involved true terrorism. Remember, these were an enemy that did not reveal themselves as combatants. The believed in their cause but they had no limits to what they would do to attain it. We, on the other hand, maintained limits according to rules of engagement based upon law or warfare. When those limits were exceeded, and it was known, corrective action including criminal prosecution was taken up. The Viet Cong, however, made heroes of their own.

Linking the My Lai killings to the Phoenix Program is pure speculation and shows a real lack of understanding in how the Phoenix Program worked compared to the conventional operations such as the troops involved in My Lai were. That incident was brought on by the failure of the unit's commander who, for whatever reason, lost all sense of morality and ordered the killing of non-combatants that were no threat to him or his troops. For that he was charged, tried, and sentenced. Unfortunately, because of the politics of the time he was released and did not serve his sentence. It is notable that one of the key reasons his actions were made known was because of the character of other soldiers in the area who saw what had happened and knew it wrong.

That (moral values and compassion) is a key difference between the typical American soldier and many of our enemies. It's something that John Kerry and his organization tried to overshadow with lies about our typical conduct.

Patrick

 

[Conservative Christian]

Originally posted by Joseph_Botwinick:
I think he is doing a good job and should stay.

Yeah, a really wunnerful guy.

 

[Joseph_Botwinick]

Yep he is.

Joseph Botwinick

 

[Pennsylvania Jim]

Originally posted by DavidFWhite3:
One last word to you. You were born in the same year I was listening to my family fight over the prospect of me being drafted. Yes, I was seventeen the year you were born, just two years after Kerry had his life changing incidents in Vietnam, a history book question for you, a life changing decision for people like me. You have no right whatsoever to accuse John Kerry of being a taitor. You are nothing more than a recipient of the country people like John Kerry left for you. You , sir, have no more right to question the patriotism of a John Kerry, and for that matter, several personal friends of mine, some who died in Vietnam, than you do the patriotism of those who fought in WWII. You are a typical example of a young crowd who has no idea what you're talking about, and you need to listen to those of us who were a part of that time, struggling with the meaning of patriotism and unjust war, particularly those who were actually there.

You've been hoodwinked young man. You are in deep need of a real education before you continue to accuse those who have shed their blood for this country of being traitors. You speak out of ignorant youth, and for that you can be forgiven, unless you continue to speak without a thread of knowledge as to what you are trying to address.

Dave
Born in 1955, not 1972.

Dave,

I think that for many, "support the troops" means supporting Republican troops. If they go against the GOP, past or present, their blood isn't worth much.

 

[Joseph_Botwinick]

Originally posted by DavidFWhite3:
</font><blockquote>quote:</font><hr />Originally posted by Joseph_Botwinick:
Kerry was a fraud, a cofessed war criminal, and a traitor.

Joseph Botwinick

One last word to you. You were born in the same year I was listening to my family fight over the prospect of me being drafted. Yes, I was seventeen the year you were born, just two years after Kerry had his life changing incidents in Vietnam, a history book question for you, a life changing decision for people like me. You have no right whatsoever to accuse John Kerry of being a taitor. You are nothing more than a recipient of the country people like John Kerry left for you. You , sir, have no more right to question the patriotism of a John Kerry, and for that matter, several personal friends of mine, some who died in Vietnam, than you do the patriotism of those who fought in WWII. You are a typical example of a young crowd who has no idea what you're talking about, and you need to listen to those of us who were a part of that time, struggling with the meaning of patriotism and unjust war, particularly those who were actually there.

You've been hoodwinked young man. You are in deep need of a real education before you continue to accuse those who have shed their blood for this country of being traitors. You speak out of ignorant youth, and for that you can be forgiven, unless you continue to speak without a thread of knowledge as to what you are trying to address.

Dave
Born in 1955, not 1972. </font>[/QUOTE]Let me tell you something, old guy (kinda insulting, like referring to me as young man, isn't it?). I was born the same year my dad was voluntarily serving hhis country in the Air Force in Vietnam. John Kerry did nothing but dishonor his country and his service. My dad did not benefit from his treachory. If you don't think I have a right to criticize him, what do you think of the POW's and the Vietnam Vets who served with him? Do they not have the right to criticize him either? Or, did I onl y benefit from Democrat blood?

Joseph Botwinick

 

[Joseph_Botwinick]

You are nothing more than a recipient of the country people like John Kerry left for you.

David,

You say that as if it were a good thing. I disagree. I spit on the legacy of John Kerry and people like him. Kerry was a selfish traitor and has no honor in him.

Joseph Botwinick

 

[Joseph_Botwinick]

Further David,

I am wondering if you think I have a right to criticize Lt. Calley for what he did at Mi Lai or not? Tell me, are we only allowed to criticize those who were in Vietnam that you deem as worthy of criticism? I think not.

Joseph Botwinick

 

[The Galatian]

I spit on the legacy of John Kerry and people like him.

That would explain why you prefer a man who used political pull to avoid serving in Vietnam, and then went AWOL even from his stateside Guard duty. A man like Kerry, who volunteered for combat, and who served bravely and well probably disgusts you no end.

Thank God, there are still people like Kerry willing to go in harm's way for America today. You get to be safe and comfortable, because we still have men and women like Kerry. You don't even have to be grateful. You have the right to smear them for their patriotism. Because people like Kerry are willing to fight to give you that right.

Kerry was a selfish traitor and has no honor in him.

How sad that you feel it necessary to slander a war hero to build up your AWOL president. It won't help, Joseph.

 

[Joseph_Botwinick]

I would argue that very few men in the military today are like Kerry. As a matter of fact, by a 4-1 margin, They voted for Bush over Kerry this year. The true heros of Vietnam were the victims of Kerry's treachory. They were nothing like Kerry. The true heros of Iraq and Afganistan are nothing like Kerry. They are honorable. Most of the friends who I know in Iraq right now and their families don't want to have anything to do with a traitor like Kerry.

Joseph Botwinick

 

[The Galatian]

I would argue that very few men in the military today are like Kerry.

There are numerous stories of bravery and resourcefullness under fire, coming out of Afghanistan and Iraq. We still have men and women willing to face death in the service of their country.

We also see in the papers from time to time, some soldier trying to avoid going to combat zones. So we still have some George W. Bush types too. But fortunately, we have more Kerrys than Bushes.

The troops might be conservatives, but thank God, they are still willing to stand and fight as Kerry did, rather than run away from their duty, as Bush did.

 

[Joseph_Botwinick]

Interesting they don't seem to agree with you as they voted 4-1 for Bush. Also, it seems to me that the traitors are the ones I see in Michael Moore movies who were against Bush. I don't remember seeing any deserters campaigning for Bush. Perhaps, you would point them out to me. I did see many Vietnam Vets, Swift Boat Vets, and Vietnam POWs speaking out against Kerry however.

Joseph Botwinick