In John's day, I do not know. However, these Google Images of the Jordan River, in many places, show running water. Be sure to scroll down and click "Show more results."
...Bob
Last edited by a moderator:
-
Welcome to Baptist Board, a friendly forum to discuss the Baptist Faith in a friendly surrounding.
Your voice is missing! You will need to register to get access to all the features that our community has to offer.
We hope to see you as a part of our community soon and God Bless!
Running water for baptism?
- Thread starter abcgrad94
- Start date
In John's day, I do not know. However, these Google Images of the Jordan River, in many places, show running water. Be sure to scroll down and click "Show more results."
...Bob
Thanks! I was reading about it in my Bible encyclopedia the other night and it was talking about how shallow it is and muddy in parts.
Last year, Dr Paige Patterson spoke to the Bap Con of NY annual conference. At one point, he mentioned that when you have a baptism, you should send out engraved invitations to friends and invite all to witness the special time of dedication!:thumbsup:
I love the ideal! I think GL hits it on the mark. We get baptized in front of just a few, and no one else know of the time of great joy.
I remember one baptism we had, prior to our church having a baptistery (we live in NY and DON'T do creek baptisms in winter!) we utilized a sister church for the baptism. Tough our church usually ran at lest 50 in attendance, no more than 10 showed up for this baptism which was held in the afternoon. The mother of the candidate personally came up to me and thank us for attending. :tear:
Salty
ps - with computers those engraved invitations would be a snap!
Don't forget...separation of church and shopping
Only if the mall stores say "Merry Christmas" instead of "Happy Holidays.":laugh:
SaggyWoman
Active Member
I have attended baptisms in the river, but never was running water a necessity.
glfredrick
New Member
That would be roughly equivalent to the way they were held in the 1st century -- where crowds could see what transpired. Re-reading the account of John the Baptist shows that he gathered huge crowds, perhaps not for the right reasons, but when one was baptized by John, everyone else knew. It gets a little murky for the rest of the NT, but when 5000 were saved in one day and 3000 in another, plus "people added daily who were being saved..." there were a LOT of public baptisms.
Also, it seems that most of those baptisms were held very near, or perhaps at the temple. No mention of huge crowds going on long marches to the Jordan directly after Pentecost (no real mention of baptism at all -- wish there was!).
My own belief is that running water is not necessary, it's the act itself that's most important. We've even baptized in a swimming pool before. It's all personal preference. Myself, I prefer a creek. It's a very spiritual setting. As far as some of the posts that seem to refer that baptizing in running water in all different kinds of conditions is dangerous, where is the faith? I've never known of anyone to get sick from being baptized outdoors. If you talk to some of the people that have been baptized in the cold, they'll tell you that they didn't even notice the cold. Now that might not be everybody's experience but that's been mine. The last baptism that we had at the creek, we had to chase off a couple of snakes. I just figured it was the devil trying to interfere with God's work. And before anyone says anything, we are not "snakehandlers". I've also been to creek baptisms before when it was snowing. If you've read my only other thread on here, you'll see that I'm actually baptizing a girl tomorrow in the creek. The high here is supposed to be around 39 with possible snow showers. I gave her the option of a baptistry or the creek and she chose to go to the creek. For any of you who have not attended an outdoor baptism with all of God's natural beauty surrounding you, then you have missed out on a true blessing and unique spiritual experience. Like I said, I've been a part of several different types of baptisms, but nothing compares to an outdoor, natural setting for a baptism. Just my preference. I just don't see how knocking that experience or saying that it's not safe, is warranted. One thing that I have noticed, is that people search out comfort. They want their pews or chairs padded, they want their heat and air conditioning, and they want preaching that tickles their ears. And if they don't have that comfort, they can't seem to worship. I, personally, think we as the "church" have gotten too comfortable. So comfortable that alot of our people have fallen asleep. Won't be nobody sleeping tomorrow out on the banks of the creek.
glfredrick
New Member
In the 1st century they did not have safe supplies of stored water as we do today. In fact, water was a big deal back then. Running water in a stream was the best and safest form.
The biblical admonitions to use wine are largely because all ancient people did so in order to stay alive. The alcohol purified the water. Look up Laodicea in a commentary and you'll get the point.
The biblical admonitions to use wine are largely because all ancient people did so in order to stay alive. The alcohol purified the water. Look up Laodicea in a commentary and you'll get the point.
menageriekeeper
Active Member
1) you obviously don't live in a houseful of chronically ill people. "Catching a chill" is a big deal in this house.
2) I handle snakes. Not poisoness ones of course, I'm not that stupid, though there are those verses in the Bible.....
My boys brought them into the house and the one that survived is now 6 feet long and somehow I ended up being the primary caretaker. Unless they are poisoness, they are harmless and even if they are likely more scared of you than you are of them (excluding water moccasins which can be really agressive).3)I've attended creek baptisms. I agree it is an unique experience. Those I have attended were always in warm weather. Though of course, it can be "warm weather" at Christmas in Alabama! LOL
4)Whoa Nellie! Where is the scripture that says one should only worship in discomfort in order to better appreciate the service? People fall asleep in church because the preaching isn't affective, they are tired (think the young man that fell out of the window when the preaching went long) or they are simply not interested. Not because the pews are too comfortable. Ask anyone with arthritis just how comfortable a church pew is. Heat and air? Again, live with someone with a chronic condition that is affected by environment and you'll soon have a different perspective.
In response to Menageriekeeper:
1) Our congregation does have several chronically ill people. It's a personal decision that they make whether to go or not. I believe that if you have the faith, which is lacking nowadays, God will take care of you. People must think that their God is so small and weak that He can't keep his people warm during the cold times and can't protect them from sickness or heal them if they do get sick. That might be their God, but my God is much bigger. He can do anything for his people. If we just believe and have faith. Simple as that. The way I look at it, if I get sick and die from pneumonia because I was baptizing in cold water, then I've died serving my God and I'll be right there with him in Heaven. So, it's a win/win situation for me.
2) Don't really now how or if I'm supposed to respond to that one.
3)Well it's not going to be nowhere near warm tomorrow.Cold, cold, and more cold..lol.
4) As far as worshipping in discomfort, you totally missed the point or I didn't make my point clear. I didn't mean that you had to do without or be in discomfort to worship God, but I believe it has had a effect on how people worship. I went to Haiti 2 times this year and on my second trip, we had church outside under a tarp. We were on top of a mountain on the ruins of a collapsed orphanage and the temperature was about 110. There were no restrooms, no daycare, no coffee bar, no information booth, no running water, no comfortable chairs, no PA system, no TV screens, but you know what, the Holy Spirit was there. That's really all we needed, wasn't it? It was absolutely miserable conditions to the natural body, but you know what, nobody seemed to mind. Their focus was on God. It was the most spiritual service that I have ever been a part of. I got up there and preached to these people who had gone through so much just to get to church, many walked for miles and they going to have to walk back home. The service lasted about 3 hours. Here after an hour, people are itching to get out of there so they can beat the crowd to the restaurants. While there I couldn't help to think about all the people here in the States that have excuse after excuse for why they don't go to church. And none of them hold water. I hear people complain all the time in church and it gets so old. I know God has to be tired of it. "It's too hot, it's too cold, somebody got my seat, the preacher is too longwinded, that baby's crying, I don't like singing that song, etc. etc.". You know what, if people would just put their focus on worshipping God, then all that other stuff wouldn't bother them. People want to focus on the natural and not the spiritual. If you've ever read any of Paul's writing then you should know that he said that we will suffer here on earth. And we should count it as a blessing.
People fall asleep in church because they just don't care. They have lost their respect for God and for his House. They can sit and watch tv all day or do other things for hours on end, but can't keep their eyes open for 30 mins. of preaching. It shows were people's hearts are. If anyone falls asleep in my church, they will be woke up. I do agree that some preaching is boring. If it's that bad that it puts people to sleep, then the congregation needs to be praying for that preacher and if that doesn't work, then something needs to change. But in a lot of cases, the congregation is happy to hear ineffective preaching because it doesn't challenge them to be better Christians. They like sitting there on their tail and don't won't to hear the truth preached.
My church is very comfortable. We have padded pews and we even provide extra cushions. We have heat and air. We even have several throws laying in the pews for people who are cold natured. I'm not so much talking about people getting comfortable in the natural sense, but more towards the spiritual side. People have gotten comfortable with their spiritual growth and it's caused them to fall asleep spiritually. They're no longer growing and are of no use to the church in that condition. Just like when Jesus was praying in the garden, his disciples could not stay awake. They sat down and got too comfortable and was of no use to Jesus for the purpose that he asked of them: to watch while he prayed.
I hope this clarifies a few things. God Bless have a great week.
1) Our congregation does have several chronically ill people. It's a personal decision that they make whether to go or not. I believe that if you have the faith, which is lacking nowadays, God will take care of you. People must think that their God is so small and weak that He can't keep his people warm during the cold times and can't protect them from sickness or heal them if they do get sick. That might be their God, but my God is much bigger. He can do anything for his people. If we just believe and have faith. Simple as that. The way I look at it, if I get sick and die from pneumonia because I was baptizing in cold water, then I've died serving my God and I'll be right there with him in Heaven. So, it's a win/win situation for me.
2) Don't really now how or if I'm supposed to respond to that one.
3)Well it's not going to be nowhere near warm tomorrow.Cold, cold, and more cold..lol.
4) As far as worshipping in discomfort, you totally missed the point or I didn't make my point clear. I didn't mean that you had to do without or be in discomfort to worship God, but I believe it has had a effect on how people worship. I went to Haiti 2 times this year and on my second trip, we had church outside under a tarp. We were on top of a mountain on the ruins of a collapsed orphanage and the temperature was about 110. There were no restrooms, no daycare, no coffee bar, no information booth, no running water, no comfortable chairs, no PA system, no TV screens, but you know what, the Holy Spirit was there. That's really all we needed, wasn't it? It was absolutely miserable conditions to the natural body, but you know what, nobody seemed to mind. Their focus was on God. It was the most spiritual service that I have ever been a part of. I got up there and preached to these people who had gone through so much just to get to church, many walked for miles and they going to have to walk back home. The service lasted about 3 hours. Here after an hour, people are itching to get out of there so they can beat the crowd to the restaurants. While there I couldn't help to think about all the people here in the States that have excuse after excuse for why they don't go to church. And none of them hold water. I hear people complain all the time in church and it gets so old. I know God has to be tired of it. "It's too hot, it's too cold, somebody got my seat, the preacher is too longwinded, that baby's crying, I don't like singing that song, etc. etc.". You know what, if people would just put their focus on worshipping God, then all that other stuff wouldn't bother them. People want to focus on the natural and not the spiritual. If you've ever read any of Paul's writing then you should know that he said that we will suffer here on earth. And we should count it as a blessing.
People fall asleep in church because they just don't care. They have lost their respect for God and for his House. They can sit and watch tv all day or do other things for hours on end, but can't keep their eyes open for 30 mins. of preaching. It shows were people's hearts are. If anyone falls asleep in my church, they will be woke up. I do agree that some preaching is boring. If it's that bad that it puts people to sleep, then the congregation needs to be praying for that preacher and if that doesn't work, then something needs to change. But in a lot of cases, the congregation is happy to hear ineffective preaching because it doesn't challenge them to be better Christians. They like sitting there on their tail and don't won't to hear the truth preached.
My church is very comfortable. We have padded pews and we even provide extra cushions. We have heat and air. We even have several throws laying in the pews for people who are cold natured. I'm not so much talking about people getting comfortable in the natural sense, but more towards the spiritual side. People have gotten comfortable with their spiritual growth and it's caused them to fall asleep spiritually. They're no longer growing and are of no use to the church in that condition. Just like when Jesus was praying in the garden, his disciples could not stay awake. They sat down and got too comfortable and was of no use to Jesus for the purpose that he asked of them: to watch while he prayed.
I hope this clarifies a few things. God Bless have a great week.
Old Union Brother
New Member
God bless you Simpleman I wish tht I could be there tomorrow to share in the joy your congregation will have at the baptism of this new convert. It may be cold but I'm sure the spirit will be warm.
A simple country preacher.
Jeff
A simple country preacher.
Jeff
menageriekeeper
Active Member
Doesn't this contradict your very statement that we are too comfortable in our worship? What was the whole diatribe about Haiti's misery and how wonderful the worship was if you didn't want to come home and introduce your congregation to the wonders of worship in discomfort? You seem to have some contradictions in your views.
You know, you are a new member and I'm going to back off this discussion as it is unhelpful to the OP. PTL for you new convert. Enjoy tomorrow's baptism. The angels in heaven are rejoicing with you.
:1_grouphug:
One thing that I have noticed, is that people search out comfort. They want their pews or chairs padded, they want their heat and air conditioning, and they want preaching that tickles their ears. And if they don't have that comfort, they can't seem to worship. I, personally, think we as the "church" have gotten too comfortable. So comfortable that a lot of our people have fallen asleep. Won't be nobody sleeping tomorrow out on the banks of the creek.
I don't know about being more spiritual but it certainly gives the idea that they may be more arrogant and proud of their supposed lack of creature comforts. One can be just as spiritually dead by the creek side as the next one sitting on a padded pew.
I don't know about being more spiritual but it certainly gives the idea that they may be more arrogant and proud of their supposed lack of creature comforts. One can be just as spiritually dead by the creek side as the next one sitting on a padded pew.
glfredrick
New Member
The view that we need to be held uncomfortable in our gathering or in this life stems from a view of some of the passages of Scripture that tell us to be in and not of this world, etc.
Some have tried that track... They ended up in stone rooms in a secluded monastery. They ended up devising a means of penance. Both are serious errors and fail to take into account the examples we have in Scripture, particularly where Jesus was treated lavishly by the wealthy supporters who housed Him. He never turned away their lavishness and comfort and never preached against their use of the blessings of God. It is not a matter of how comfortable or uncomfortable we are -- it is a matter of how our heart inclines.
Some have tried that track... They ended up in stone rooms in a secluded monastery. They ended up devising a means of penance. Both are serious errors and fail to take into account the examples we have in Scripture, particularly where Jesus was treated lavishly by the wealthy supporters who housed Him. He never turned away their lavishness and comfort and never preached against their use of the blessings of God. It is not a matter of how comfortable or uncomfortable we are -- it is a matter of how our heart inclines.
Some of you are missing the point all together. I was just making a comparison of how people don't appreciate what they have. There is a high premium put on comfort here in the United States and that's fine and good as long as people keep their focus on God. We live in a time, where people are searching out and making up excuses for not going to church. And they'll use anything to get out of going. Then some of you, suppose that I'm saying that people have to be in discomfort to worship. If you ask for it, God will give you a understanding spirit. One of my points is that people can worship anywhere, even in the mountains of Haiti or on the creek bank, or in a 20,000 seat auditorium, in the woods, in your closet, absolutely anywhere as long as people want to worship. Another point, is that a lot of people cannot worship no matter the conditions or where they're at. People put conditions on if and when they will worship. They will try to worship on Sundays or Wednesdays but not through the week. They'll worship if a certain song is sung or if God gives them some sign. We shouldn't put our own conditions or parameters on worshipping God.
God Bless
God Bless
Old Union Brother
New Member
Amen brother. You are right on the mark....keep on the firing line and you will do fine. You and the congregration that God has intrusted you with will be in my prayers.
A fellow servant in Christ
Jeff
A fellow servant in Christ
Jeff