Sabbath "Remains" for the People of God Heb 4

[Eric B]

Here is what we find in good scholarship and Bible historians when it comes to Gal 4 and the pagan days observed THERE but NEVER MENTIONED in all of the OT as something for God's people!!
quote:
--------------------------------------------------------------------------------
6 Because you are sons, God has sent forth the Spirit of His Son into our hearts, crying, "" Abba! Father!''
7 Therefore you are no longer a slave, but a son; and if a son, then an heir through God.
--------------------------------------------------------------------------------
This is the “conversion” moment – when the lost becomes born again – an adopted child of God. It is a ‘contrast in faith’ between the lost state and the saved stated. It is not a contrast between the saved OT saint and the saved NT saint as many have vainly hoped in recent years.
quote:
--------------------------------------------------------------------------------
7 therefore you are no longer a slave, but a son; and if a son, then an heir through God.
--------------------------------------------------------------------------------
This ends the section applicable to all mankind “in general” apart from anything specific at Galatia.
But then Paul starts to focus “specifically” on the condition of the pagans-turned-Christian IN the church of Galatia. Comparing their condition before salvation with their condition afterwards and the errors they were starting to lapse BACK into.
Lets take a look at Gal 4 again where it specifically focuses on the error of the gentiles in Galatia worshipping pagan idols.
Gentiles who "did not even KNOW the ONE true creator God".
Gentiles who worshipped "THINGS" that were "BY NATURE" not gods at all.
Gentiles who are "turning back AGAIN" to the "Weak and elemental things of the WORLD"
Gentiles who USED to observe "days and months and seasons and years." in their old system of emperor worship and are now introducing something like it mixed with Christianity.
quote:
--------------------------------------------------------------------------------
8 However at that time, when you did not know God, you were slaves to those which by nature are no gods[b/].
9 But now that you have come to know God, or rather to be known by God, how is it that you turn back again to the weak and worthless elemental things, to which you desire to be enslaved all over again?
10 You observe days and months and seasons and years.
11 I fear for you, that perhaps I have labored over you in vain
--------------------------------------------------------------------------------
Obviously the problem with these Galatians pre-conversion is not about Gentiles in Galatia being obedient to the Law of God prior to being a Christian!
Obviously the problem IS about …
quote:
--------------------------------------------------------------------------------
8 however at that time, when you did not know God, you were slaves to those which by nature are no Gods.
--------------------------------------------------------------------------------
Clearly Paul addresses the gentile churches in Galatia and mentions that in their lost state - before becoming Christian they were worshipping false gods. The Hebrew nation-church by contrast was established by the one true God of creation who was to send his only son as messiah-Christ-savior was known by the Hebrews and Paul agrees to this in Romans 3:1-3 as well as his reference to Timothy's up-bringing.
quote:
--------------------------------------------------------------------------------
9 but now that you have come to know God, or rather to be known by God, how is it that you turn back again to the weak and worthless elemental things, to which you desire to be enslaved all over again?
--------------------------------------------------------------------------------
Clearly Paul refers to going back to practices of the pagan system - returning to be enslaved by the pagan superstitious practices - again.
1. There is no place where Paul (or any Bible author) calls obedience to God’s Word – “Slavery”. Yet some Christians today prefer to think of it that way.
2. There is no place where Paul (or any Bible author) refers to God’s Word as “The weak and elemental things of this World” – yet some Christians do.
3. There is no place where Paul (or any Bible author) says that the Word of God is “worthless” and “pertaining to that “which by nature is not God”.
Rather – when it comes to abuses of the Word of God – Paul speaks of God’s Word as “Holy Just and Perfect” and as “condemning the sinner” – it is not the Law or the Word of God that he condemns – it is always the sinner that IT condemns. Yet some Christians today – want to so much to abolish Christ the Creator’s Law – that they are willing to turn the text of Gal 4 as it addresses the pagan lifestyle of the gentiles in Galatia and their practices – and attribute to God – the authoring of paganism..
quote:
--------------------------------------------------------------------------------
10 you observe days and months and seasons and years.
--------------------------------------------------------------------------------
NOTE: . This pagan practice is also condemned in the OT
quote:
--------------------------------------------------------------------------------
Lev 19: 26 You shall not eat anything with the blood, nor observe times (KJV).
--------------------------------------------------------------------------------
Bible scholars have long recognized the pagan system being referenced here.
quote:
--------------------------------------------------------------------------------
Martin Luther "Almost all doctors have interpreted this reference as concerning the astrological days of the Chaldeans"
A commentary on St. Paul's Epistle to the Galatians, rev, trans, [London: James Clarke, 1953], 392
-------------------------------------------------------------------------------
quote:
--------------------------------------------------------------------------------
Troy Martin agrees with Luther
“In 4.8 Paul mentions the former pagan life of the Galatian Christians. In 4.9, he asks them how they can desire their former life again. He then proposes their observance of the time-keeping scheme in 4.10 as a demonstrative proof of their reversion to their old life…Considering only the immediate context of Gal 4.10 the list must be understood as a pagan temporal scheme”
“Pagan and Judeo-Christian Time-keeping Schemes in Gal 4:10 and Col 2:16” NTS 42 (1996):105-119 ( p 113) Troy Martin
R. A. Cole “it is not necessary…to see any Jewish influence in these Galatians; in all forms of paganism there is some form of ‘casting horoscopes’, with consequent ‘lucky’ and ‘unlucky’ days”
(The Epistle of Paul to the Galatians: An Introduction and Commentary,, R. A. Cole. TNTC [London: Tyndale, 1969], 119)
quote:
--------------------------------------------------------------------------------
S. Mitchell writes “the major obstacle which stood in the way of the progress of Christianity, and the force which would have drawn new adherents back to conformity with the prevailing paganism, was the public worship of he Emperor. The packed calendar of the ruler cult dragooned the citizens…into observing days, months, seasons and years which it laid down for special recognition and celebration”
------------------------------------------------------------------------------
S. Mitchell, Anatolia; Land, Men and Gods in Asia Minor, Volume 2 The rise of the Church (Oxford: Clarendon Press, 1993), P. 10.
--------------------------------------------------------------------------------
Even authors that “insist” on using Gal 4 as a method to attack Christ the Creator’s memorial of His creative act – and given as His holy day in Gen 2:3 (a blessing for all mankind Mark 2:27) – admit that their blind use of 4:10 as a reference to God’s Ordinances in His Word – is merely a preference not a fact dictated by the text.
quote:
--------------------------------------------------------------------------------
:”They (the days, months, seasons and years) could equally well of course refer to the quasi-magical observances that we know to have been rife in Ephesus and presumably in other parts of Asia Minor too (Acts 19:19) Heterodox Jews as well as pagans certainly practices these arts as we see from Acts 19:”
The Rev. Cannon R. A. Cole, M.Th, Ph.D. The Letter of Paul to the Galatians (Inter-Varsity Press, 1965, 1989) P. 165)
-------------------------------------------------------------------------------
Even those that presume that the only influence on the Galatian Christians are Jews – hoping even to limit it to orthodox Jews we find..
quote:
--------------------------------------------------------------------------------
“Apparently on account of their pagan background, the Galatians, as aptly stated by W. Rordorf, ‘could only discern in the particular attention paid by the Jews to certain days and seasons nothing more than religious veneration paid to stars and natural forces’ “

Samuel Bacchiocchi Ph.D, The Sabbath in the New Testament, Biblical Perspectives 1995, p 122
(Graduate from Gregorian Pontifical University – Summa Cum Laude

Willy Rordorf Sunday: The History of the Day of Rest and Worship in the Earliest Centuries of the Christian Church (Philadelphia, 1968), p133
--------------------------------------------------------------------------------
#1 The Greek term for "observe" in Gal 4 is NOT the term used in Romans 14 that is also translated "observe". Rather in the unique Gal 4 case it means" to "watch with evil intent" and refers to something like the astrology practices seen today.
Lev 19 describes it in other Bile translations as –
quote:
--------------------------------------------------------------------------------
26 "`Ye shall not eat any thing with the blood; neither shall ye use enchantment, nor observe omens.(KJ21)
26You shall not eat anything with the blood; neither shall you use magic, omens, or witchcraft [or predict events by horoscope or signs and lucky days].(AMP)
--------------------------------------------------------------------------------
So “instead” of the Gal 4 text addressing the popular notion of “obeying God’s Word when you don’t really have to if you don’t feel like it” – the Gal 4 text is condemning “observe” as in the pagan practice “...to inspect alongside" (i.e. to note insidiously). Where "Insidious" can be to "intended to entrap or beguile", or "stealthily treacherous or deceitful.
#2. God's Word did not command His people to "observe seasons or months".
#3. Using another word for “observance” -- The "observances of days" is mentioned in Romans 14 and the "Condemnation" there is against anyone who would "condemn" the "observances". Bending Gal 4 to point at the very practices employed in Romans 14 is a abusive example of eisegesis.
#4. In this case months and seasons are lumped in with days. The indication of a pagan system of practice is clearly - and repeatedly brought to view. Nothing here is ordained by God - established by God - given by God as a practice for God's people. It is utterly condemned as originating from pagan worship alone.
#5. Paul says this is “a return” and that they are “enslaved all over AGAIN” – these gentiles, these converted pagans – were never Jews. They are not returning to “salvation by keeping the Law of God” as something they “used to do”. This is simply “another” problem Paul is identifying among the Galatians that is in “Addition” to their problem with Judaizers
11 I fear for you, that perhaps I have labored over you in vain.
Here is the ultimate proof - this is a practice never to be defended (so it is not anything like the practices being defended in Romans 14) . It is a practice that invalidates the gospel, salvation lost for those who engage in returning to those pagan systems of worship - pagan practices.
The speculation that Paul defended this practice is Romans 14 as a practice not to be condemned - only shows the lengths to which some will go to launch an attack on the creator's own holy day (made holy by him when he created earth) - as he calls it the Sabbath day (not merely leaving it with a day-number God tells us the 7th day is the Sabbath of God).
Of course the fact that the Jews themselves - who lived in these pagan centers - had begun to incorporate these pagan practices into the Hebrew faith, only made the problem more difficult for gentile Christians.
See the clear teaching in Gal 4 that this is the "lost state" not a statement about the "Spiritual holy just and true Law of God" in its "unholy, unjust, untrue, unspiritual" form of "elemental things that pertain only to The World" and not god at all.
It is precisely "because" Paul always holds the Law of God to be "Spiritual" where man is "sinful" and to always be "Holy Just and true" where man is rebellious and to always be binding so that we are to be "DOERS of the LAW are justified before God" Rom2:13 that Paul can say "Do we then abolish the Law of God by our faith? God forbid! In fact we Establish the Law of God" Rom 3:31. How embarrassing for those doctrines that say "Yes! we DO abolish the Law of God - Now we just keep the commandments of Christ - a New Law not that old Law of God".

A short follow on to Gal 4 from Eric's reference -
#1. No text says that the Word of God is bondage.
#2. Gal 3 points out that the Law condemns ALL and that "Scripture places all under sin". Making God's LAW and Scripture - interchangeable. Indeed they are "The Word of God"
#3. Gal 04 references the practice of gentile Christians before their conversion of worshipping that "which is not god at all" and practices pertaining to the "Weak and beggarly things of this world".
#4. God's Word, God's Law, Scripture is never referenced as "a weak and beggarly thing" in all of scripture - much less by Paul.
#5. God's Word never says that obedience to the Word of God "is a form of slavery":.

#8. Christ the Creator's Holy day is never called "that which pertains to the weak and beggarly things of this world" in the NT or the OT.

#10 instead of saying "Our faith now declares Scripture God's Law to be of the weak and beggarly things of this World and obedience to it is returning to paganism" - Paul says "Do we then abolish the Law Of God by our faith? God forbid! In fact we Establish the LAw of God!" Rom 3:31

This is all just copies of the same stuff you have said before, which I answered. How do you figure to answer me with the very statements that I was answering? You think your arguments are that infallible or "self-evident" or something?

Once again:

1) No one is calling the "word of God" or even "the Law" bondage, slavery, “The weak and elemental things of this World”, or “worthless” and “pertaining to that “which by nature is not God”. It was the Jews' condemned state trying to justify themselves by the works of the Law (without Christ) that was the bondage and the rest of those things. ***PLEASE NOTE THIS POINT AND STOP IGNORING IT!!! (and all were condemned, so your dichotomy of "the problem of Judaism ends here, and it is only the problems of paganism afterward" is manufactured).

2) "observe days and months and seasons and years" is NOT the same as "observe times" in Lev. Two totally different words in two totally different languages. You can't just pair things up like that without making sure it is the same thing.

3) the fact that "observe" in Gal. is “...to inspect alongside" (i.e. to note insidiously). Where "Insidious" can be to "intended to entrap or beguile", or "stealthily treacherous or deceitful", is the biggest proof of all, because it is the SAME WORD used for when the JEWS tried to "trap" both Jesus and Paul! There is NOTHING in the Greek AT ALL about "astrology"! Now are you saying the Jews used astrology to trap Jesus and Paul? Or was it the LAW they used?
Likewise, their WATCHing the NT Christians and juding them for not keeping OT laws was the same thing, as is those who continue to do it today!

4) Your schalars are only a handful, and do not make the majority. And your whole claim about "emperor worship" having "days and months and seasons" may or may not be true, but it is from extrabiblical sources, and cannot be used to decide an matter of interpretation such as this!. Scripture can interpret itself.

5) Nobody says there were only Jewish influences in the NT church. However, people do seem to think there were only pagan influences, and have underestimated the Jewish pressure and even persecution of Christians.

So put away your stock material and your sources and deal with these points only, and stop pretending not to even see them!

#6. God's Word never says "the New Moons feast days are made for mankind" - no are they included in the 10 commandments nor are they included in the pre-cross institutions given to mankind. "Whatever else" you may think of them.

#7. God's Word presents Christ the Creator's 7th day Sabbath as "Made for mankind" and "included" in the "10 commandments" as "continued even after the 2nd coming" in the New Earth and as "given before the sin of Adam" to all mankind.

#9. God's commandments are valid in the pre-cross NT text of MAtt, Mark, Luke John even by the most abusive doctrinal structures today. "Not repeated means deleted" fails there at the very start.

#11. Instead of saying "Being a DOER of God's LAW" is an optional choice and you should NOT expect others to obey it -- Paul says "IT is NOT the HEARERS of God's Law that are JUST before God but the DOERS will be Justified" Rom 2:13

Obviously this is a far cry from the eisegetical approach to Gal 04 that would claim that the "weak and beggarly things of this world" consist of a Christian who pays attention to the Law of God - because someone like Paul has said to him "IT is NOT the HEARERS of God's Law that are JUST before God but the DOERS will be Justified" Rom 2:13

#12. Christ said "If you LOVE Me KEEP My commandments" John 14:15 and John "continues" to show that same obligation in 1 John 2 and in Rev 12. Instead of turning and saying "no wait! To do as Christ commanded is now the Weak beggarly thing

And this too is just more hot air that has been already repeately answered. No matter what you say, you basically pick and choose which aspects of the Law are still mandatory, and create a false dichotomy between the 10 and the rest, and you don't keep the fourth like it was to be done on the OT, and meanwhile you keep others outside the 10. God's Word never says "the dietary Laws are made for mankind" - no are they included in the 10 commandments nor are they included in the pre-cross institutions given to mankind". What a mess of contradiction. But you want to judge everyone else! Once again YOU are the one "watching with evil intent"! YOU keep the sabbath unto the Lord. If you can't do that without judging everyone else, then it is not about the Lord at all, but nothing but sinful pride. And you continuously have to LIE about God's Word being called paganism to get you accusations across. You need to repent of this instead of counting how many commandments others are keeping!

[ August 14, 2005, 01:48 AM: Message edited by: Eric B ]

 

[Gerhard Ebersoehn]

Dear Bob,
You chose this thread's theme - that it should be Hebrews 3-4; not Galatians 4.
Galatians 4 doesn't have the Sabbath in mind - you yourself say so. so why bring it in here?
As for Hebrews, it says the People of God - Christians - have valid reason for keeping of the Sabbath "BECAUSE"-"ARA" of what Jesus had acomplished - which was: 1, that He had given them rest (4:8) - a clear allusion to His resurrection from the dead; 2, that He had entered in into His own rest from His own works as God (4:10) - again a clear implication of His resurrection from the dead. In a word as Hebrews says by way of introduction: "God in these last days SPEAKING through the SON", and then in chapter 4:4-5, "God thus concerning the Seventh Day spoke", that "On the Seventh Day God RESTED from ALL His works" - yet another and strongest possible reference to Jesus' resurrection from the dead. It SIMPLY means: The Christian "NO LONGER keep the Sabbath" (in word's of Ignatius') for the sake of 'Sabbatising' merely, or, for reason of the Law, merely; but for Christ's sake - for reason of HIM. For HE, being "LORD", IS, the Law for the Christian.

Now here's the difficulty for your point of view - the legalistic approach, allow me to call it - that if one would "Sabbatise", i.e., keep the Sabbath to honour the Law through doing so, he in effect dishonours Christ, who, by His Resurrection, had given the full and only, REASON for the believers' keeping of the Sabbath Day. And, if one would keep the Sabbath to honour the Law through doing so while being a Christian, he in effect would DISHONOUR the LAW, whose SOLE honour and glory it is, to honour and glory Christ!

 

[Gerhard Ebersoehn]

The Sabbath functions like the Holy Spirit; the Sabbath that testifies of itself is a false Sabbath; the Sabbath - and its keeping - that testifies of Christ Jesus, is the true "Sabbath of the LORD your God, for on the Seventh Day God RESTED" - and rested He rested in Christ or nohow!

 

[Gerhard Ebersoehn]

Why surrender into the hands of the Sunday-worshippers the ONLY and the BEST reason, motive, inspiration, grounds, justifying, LAW for a keeping of the Sabbath Day? Did not, WOULD not God had given it to the day He had appointed for this blessing, for this sanctification, for this completion, for this rest, for this reviving, since He had created the world - AND everything in it - promising its entire and ultimate history - the climax of the ages - in Christ in resurrection from the dead?